management elk hunt

M

muleynv

Guest
How does everyone feel about the proposed non trophy elk hunt? My personal opinion is that spikes are bulls too. What if a bull was a 400" 6pt bull that busted his g4 off. That would make him a management bull. Why not make a spike only hunt. If they make through the spike only hunt, then they will live alot longer than if you can shoot anything that is not a 6x6, and your knocking down the bull to cow ratio like they are trying to do with the management hunt.
 
I have thought the same thing about killing mature bulls just because of a broken point. Makes no sense to me.

I like the idea of a spike only hunt and/or allowing spikes during the antlerless ml and archery hunts.

I also like the idea of managing different areas for different age classes, and changing the wait to 5 years no matter what, like the antelope rifle hunt used to be.

Manage certain areas for a lower class of animals, and other areas like the wilderness areas for a higher age class of animals. Publish that so that people understand going into the draw what they are getting into. If they apply for a certain area, then they know it is intended more for opportunity than trophy class. That way, the people that want a trophy bull can still wait the 15 or so years it normally takes to draw the tough areas, and the people that just want to hunt elk, may just have to wait a couple years before drawing again.

Thats my thoughts anyway.

Later,

Marcial

P.S. - have you written a letter to the commission regarding that? I am putting one together now.
 
Can you briefly tell me what the proposal was; I tried watching the meeting but for some reason that item would not load.

I thought the proposal was going to be for Lincoln County and 5 pts and under. Reasons being two fold: too many bulls and genetics. Like I said "Thought" I have no idea what was actually presented.

Thanks

Alex
 
I don't know for sure if it was just for Lincoln county or not I read about it in the paper a few days ago. It didn't say just Lincoln county in the paper, but that would make a little more sense as long a they use it properly and don't use it as a big money maker.
 
I maybe missing something here, and I'm know biologist, but if you were to harvest more cows, wouldnt the problem(bull to cow) be resolved after several seasons? Less cows = less recruitment.
 
I think it's dumb. I have seen some killer 5xs in my time! So why start shooting "lesser" bulls? Do a spike hunt! That is a whole lot easyer. Plus you know it won't be a HUGE 5x7 that is being shot! Are we trying to mess up what we have in this state? Just does not make sence to me. I say do a spike hunt for a few years and see it that "helps"

("For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8-9")
 
baloney- it will last one year, just like Utahs did, a spike hunt would be much better. The reason they have a bull cow ratio like they do is because of the high number of cow hunts, and the reason they have all the cow hunts is to keep the herds well below what they should be,or could be. It really is a bad deal.
 
I'm with Marcial on this one. I think allowing spikes to be harvested on archery and muzzleloader cow hunts would be a good start. In some units this approach could possibly work even in the any legal weapon cow hunts.

I'm a muzzleloader cow hunter and when I'm lucky enough to draw a tag it seems I always have opportunity at spikes and would gladly take one. I don't think primitive weapon hunters would select for spikes, more of an opportunity thing.

I also know every year people make mistakes and end up with the wrong animal (spike vs. cow) This type of hunt (spikes and cows both legal) would help that problem.

I encourage everyone to send an e-mail to the Wildlife Commissionwith their views. I don't think the management elk hunt as proposed will work.

Good post muleynv
 
I will also second that motion. Cow/spike hunt combined. That sounds good to me. I am not for harvesting trophy bulls just because there broken. The next year there still going to be a trophy bull. Why on earth would you have a potential 350 plus bull being killed during a managment hunt? If elk herds are above recommended objectives then lets cull the cows and spikes.
 
Emails have been sent. I also would like to see the Cow/spike hunt take place. I More spike bulls this year on my cow hunt then I have ever seen. Also I saw more spikes then 5 point bulls. I think a spike hunt is what we need.
 
spike hunting is absolute BS!! I cant believe you guys in nevada are going down the road of your own demise just like Utah already has.

Learn from mistakes dont replicate them. The managment hunt will work if it is done when the bulls are not busted!!!!

killing a spike bull before he reaches his prim is a mistake. It is creating a void in the big bulls years down the road. it is basically creating a 1a school basket ball team instead of a 5a school. meaning a 5a school will have a better chance of getting that 7 foot tall basket ball player then a 1 a school.

4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg


The harder you work the luckier you get!!
 
I've always heard that most spikes have inferior horns compared to those 2,3 or 4 point first year bulls, that seems a good way to manage for antlers? and killing 2 1/2 year old 5 points, is that good?
 
you have heard incorrect. You will never know the genetic potential of a spike in a wild herd until it reaches maturity. This is also true in a wild herd of white tail deer. Look it up if you like. Im not going to waste my time looking the study up for you.


Killing a 2.5 year old 5 point is no different then killing a spike! the only difference is someone had to use there points to draw the elk tag. If you kill a spike it still could have been a 400" bull

Killing spikes also creates a void of big bulls in an elk herd and makes it harder for anyone to draw a big bull tag. Thus creating a butt plug in your drawing system.

eff look at Utah you think Utah has it right? Do the math on this sight on any unit. take the available tags and then divide it into the total of applicants in you point group and the every one ahead of you. In Utah most people think ooo the top guy has 12 points it is going to take me 12 years to draw. This is uneducated Utard think at its worst. It does not take into count "POINT CREEP" If you are the last one on some of these units it could be as long as 80 years right now until you are guaranteed a tag. Bonus point butt plug!!!!

at least with a management tag no one has to shoot a gay spike and everyone has to use their points. FAIR is FAIR!!



Thishttp://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/User_files/4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

The harder you work the luckier you get!!
 
you have made an excellent point about using up points, I know all about point creep. the problem I see is that the Nevada game commissioners are so dumb, they would probably create a whole new point category for management bulls.
 
The problem is there are way to many elk. Harvist more cows and spikes. I dont believe that killing raghorns is the way to go. some of us on here believe that culling spikes takes away from the genetic potential? Well culling a 2 to 5 year old bull does the exact same thing. Some are led to believe that an old 5x5 takes away from a herd gene pool. I for a fact can tell you that this is nonsense. I have scene more mature 6x6's then I have older age class 5x5's. Please tell where in Nevada where this problem exist.
 
management hunts can work if done properly. They not only can take out genetically inferior elk they can take people out of the point system and move people through it faster.

People in Utah thought it was such a bad thing for someone to kill a two year old 5x5 and the management hunt was scratched.

There is no difference in shooting a 5x5 bull or a spike they are both immature bulls the only difference is you both have to use your points.

I guarantee you if you are forced to use your points for a spike hunt hardly anyone will put in for the tag so you will be forced to give out more big bull tags in the end.

4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg


The harder you work the luckier you get!!
 
How meny of us think the elk herd is in bad shape? I thought it was doing really good. If we think that shooting spikes and shooting rag horns is not going to do the job. Then why not up the cow tags. Will that get the job done in the long run? Or just add the spikes to the cow tag. Don't make a spike hunt only tag. But a cow/spike hunt. That would up a % of elk taken. And help get the numbers down right?

("For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8-9")
 
Too many elk? I dont think so, ever look at state wide numbers, ever look at the demand for tags? ever look at the habitat? Their numbers are being held down by cow hunts because thats what the management plans call for, and the numbers are very low in most areas because sportsmen wouldn't show up at the number setting meetings. Anyway the cow hunts are why the bull cow ratio is out of whack, and if they give more bull tags, the quality will drop more and more. not only due to crowding but the harvest age will drop, then hunters will wait ten or twenty years to draw a half crappy tag. Since they are keeping herds at low numbers, I don't know exactly why they worry about the bull cow ratio, complaints about busted up horns? Who knows?
 
Piper, yes there are way to many elk in areas like 111 area 22, 23, elk are pushing into area 13 and 24. This is the exact reason why they are pushing so hard for a managment hunt. The habitat is not keeping up with the carrying capacities. A good example is area 22. Unit 22 was a great deer unit years ago, still is to some point, but you certainly dont see the numbers of years past. My point is increase cow tags or create a cow/spike hunt if NDOW feels elk numbers need to decrease. If this is the case then the Bull to Cow ratio will decrease as well. Yes it would take several years, but it would happen. Anything but a 5 point or less. I dont understand the rational behind that idea.
 
The management hunt would be its own bonus point class, which a person could apply for in any year. As it is now, the normal antlered elk hunt is 5 year waiting period if you draw, and 10 if you kill one. The cow hunt is every year no matter what. There is already a regulation in the books allowing a person to obtain a spike elk tag every other year. As we have a bonus point system, there is no guarentee of drawing a tag with any amount of bonus points, so we have no "point creep." Last year, the person who drew the NR Bighorn tag did it with no points!

If you simply kill cows, that will reduce the herd size. So, if you reduce the herd size, you reduce the number of bulls going into the population. If you reduce the number of bulls, you have to reduce the number of bull tags to keep the quality up. So no we have the same problem with a high bull to cow ratio, but with fewer elk.

Most people don't want to shoot a small bull on a 10 year + tag. I looked it up and there were 76 bulls smaller than 5 pt shot last year. Pretty small number.

If you kill the spikes, over a period of several years, it will eventually bring the bull to cow ratio down in future years. We cannot kill every spike in the woods, so there will still be a lot of bulls reaching maturity, and still plenty of mature bulls for people to chase with their regular bull tag.

Luckily Nevada counts the elk, so it has a pretty good idea of what the ratios are, and quota recommendations are set regarding that. There are a few units that may not get counted during the year, so an adjacent units numbers are used to get a pretty good idea.

I see no problem with a spike hunt that would run with the cow rifle hunt dates, and/or allowing spikes during the ml/archery cow seasons. I already stated that above.

Later,

Marcial
 
Nv sportsmen- Im less informed about the Ely elk areas, I know the sportmen there are more active than in Elko county, thats where there is a lot of unused habitat, and the elk numbers are kept much lower than the habitat could support. Still I don't fully understand the reasoning behind the concern about bull-cow ratio?, thats usually a concern when managers are trying to build herds up by not having to high a bull cow ratio, or trying to maintain quality by having a high bull- cow ratio. If you are trying to trim the elk herds and maintain quality, I would think a high bull cow ratio would be desirable.
 
Get rid of the feral horses first, then start thinking about fixing something that isn't broken!
 
>Get rid of the feral horses
>first, then start thinking about
>fixing something that isn't broken!
>


+1
 
you still havent answered the question!!!

What is the difference in a rag horn, 5x5, 6x5 and a spike?


There is no difference!!! Especially if yoiu shoot them!!! A bull is a bull. I dont know why you cant see that!!!



4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg


The harder you work the luckier you get!!
 
I spoke with a game warden on a mz deer hunt in 221-223 and he told me that the bull to cow ratio in that area as of now is 52 bulls for every 100 cows. Another thing is that in some of the north units there is an increasing number of elk and mainly bulls. I have hunted a spot for several years at th start there were no elk to speak of there. Now there are elk in every draw and canyon that we hunt and the amount of elk has continued to increase in those spots. Piper if you say there are low elk #'s than why did NDOW just open a new hunt on Stag Mtn. a few years back seams to me the elk are expanding and the numbers are increasing.


I do think that a 5 point or smaller hunt is a bad idea if they do go through with it it should not include bulls that are broken some huge bulls get broken and become 5 points but the next year they are no longer 5 points. part of the problem is that the comition does not listen to what the bioligists have to say. They think they know better than the people who spend time in the feild with the animals.
 
sagebucks- The elk numbers are capped at specific numbers, not just sub units but seperate elk areas, for instance the Jarbrige herd is capped at 1000 animals, that includes mahogany Mnt to the S.west of jackpot and the elk mnts, ect, the Independence mnt herd is capped at 500 animals, I believe that includes the bull run mnts, lone mnt, ect. area 065 has a 50 animal cap. Each area has a cap set on the number of elk that can live there, and most of the Elko county areas are set well under what the habitat could support, the reason for such low numbers is an almost total lack of support from area sportmen. The reported carrying capacity for the differing areas was put together by NDOW biologists, it took into account all the various habitat types,total acreage of public and private land and things like available water,ect.(I believe these are available for you to read) The cow hunts are designed to keep the numbers at or near the caps set by the management plans, My opinion is that Nevada has habitat for at least twice the current numbers of elk, all that without harming current uses of the land, Maybe the Ely areas are up to capacity
,but many other areas in the state certainly aren't. I imagine the reason for such high bull cow ratios is because of the high number of cow tags given out for relatively small numbers of elk.
 
If that is were the caps are set at I can see why they are trying to get rid of elk. Becuse I know for a fact that Jarbrige has more then 1000 head running around in it. And Area Independence heard has more elk it it. Also I think your right. They give out too meny cow tags for some of these small heards. But what is the return #s on those tags?
 
swbuckmaster - the big deal that people are worried about with this "management" hunt as the way it is written is the fact that MATURE bulls can be harvested under the rule because of a broken point. So a 360 bull with a completely broken 5th on one side is legal. Add to that that its a seperate hunt and seperate point system, and we are not getting anyone out of the regular point pool anytime soon.

I helped out on a cow hunt a couple weeks ago. In one group of about 15 elk, there were 3 6 point bulls - a 250 ish bull, one about 300, and the herd bull in the 320-330 range. The two smaller 6 points were just following the herd around, but not getting real close. During September on our cow hunt, my dad and I got into a group of elk with 1 6x6, 3 raghorns, and 3 spikes with only about 5 cows and calves.

There are just a lot of bulls for the total number of elk we have. That is why they want this management hunt, to bring down the number of bulls, before the "trophy" seasons get here.

I see this as being a nightmare to enforce for the game wardens, as there are already two open positions that are not going to be filled according to the information we have, and I think it will just cause more people to be inclined to break the law, so they can brag to their friends about the "monster" 5x6 they got.

I see a spike hunt (wether in its own category, or allowing cow hunters to take spikes) being a better option. It would be a natural projection, and wouldn't include any broken points. Also, with a long term approach to a spike hunt, and sustained harvest over several years, the numbers of bull elk making it to maturity will be slightly lower, which isn't going to hurt anything.

A spike hunt will not be a general hunt like in Utah, but will be a draw only, just like the cow and bull hunts, and a limited number of tags.

I like the idea rather than a management bull hunt.

Later,

Marcial
 
Elkohunter - go to www.ndow.org and look under hunting. On the right hand column is the hunter stats and draw odds. It shows the success rates for all the hunts. %6pt bulls, etc.

The success rates on most of the cow hunts is actually pretty low.

Later,

Marcial
 
The whole problem is that they are trying to maintain the elk numbers. I have been fighting for four years trying to get the elk cap number higher. Can't fight it alone, and getting people involved is the hard part. Everyone likes to hunt but no one gets involved. We should have at least 30,000 elk in Nevada not 10,000. That would be just a start. The ranchers have to much political control in Nevada. Read in the Elko paper the B.S. Cliff Gardner is writing about wildlife and cattle, makes me sick!!!
 
Leave it as it is. Why change something that has worked for Nevada for years. We don't have tons of elk like other states do but, we have great animals in Nevada and we don't need to change our minds every few years like other states do to apease a few groups. We have the best and fairest draw system in the west and some great herds of animals. Maybe we should should use our resources on controlling the wild horses!!!!! My 2 cents!
 
mickeyelk
It's kinda a no win on that part of it. You up the elk, then the deer go down. Up the deer, elk go down. Up elk and deer and then you have too much for the land. So cut the horses down up the deer and antelope and leave the elk were they are at. Hay I like elk hunting just as much as the next guy. But what are ya gonna do?


("For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8-9")
 
It doesn't have to be deer or elk, competetion between the two is exaggerated, Nevada has habitat for both. They used to cry about Colorado, "Too many elk, its hurting the deer herds" funny but over the last 6 or 7 years Colorado has been re-writing the record books with big bucks, and they have record elk numbers at the same time. Over time NE Nevada has become better habitat for elk and antelope, the deer habitat will remain the same with or without elk. I remember when Antelope were nonexistent in most places where they are now. 065 is a good example, why are the deer so down? its certainly not because of elk, although fires and other things have made some great elk habitat, they can't live there because of the the politics, and an abundance of sportsmen like mickyelk, takes to much thought I guess. If everyone just said "leave it like it is", there wouldn't be anything for sportsmen in Nevada. Grant and Cliff have an agenda, and it has little to do with abundant wildlife. ( Cliff is actually the more honest of the two). Wildhorses are a seperate issue, why is that brought up as a wedge? also, Cattle numbers in Nevada dwarf the numbers of elk, deer, antelope, and wildhorses put together, but thats never a problem, is it?
 
piper
Thats true. But as far as the cattle numbers go. How are you going to change that? And in "some" areas it's good to have cattle in there to eat the grass down to help stop fires. Witch is the number one killer of habitat. But I have also seen the cattle in some cases do no good and end up killing the grass becuse they don't move. So what do you do? Get rid of all the cows?
No. Thats to meny peoples bread and butter. And no the ranchers won't let you up the Elk numbers becuse then they would lose places to feed there cows. There has to be a happy middle of the road that we have not found yet. So what is it? I geuss what I'm trying to ask is. Are the elk herds "so bad" That we have to do somthing? I thought we were in pretty good shape. There growing. Yes slowly, but there growing. Now As far as elk numbers growing in every area, no. The first area that comes to mind is 102. You and I both have talked about this area and it's elk before piper. And both think the same way. IT SUCKS! So where do we go from here? I would like to see more elk. But I'm also not going to take a persons way of life awayjust to see more of them. But I'm also not going to play dead and let them walk all over us and keep doing what they do.
 
I bet there is room for many more elk without any decrease in grazing permits, Im not saying that there won't be a little conflict, but that happens everywhere. Your herds are about through increasing, its going to be lots of cow permits from now on. The Wildlife commissioners set up a 7 year period for most of area 6 before the 500 cap could be changed, its been about 7 years now, and there is lots of room for an increase, But sportsmen need to spearhead it and SHOW UP. O65 has lots of potential, over 100 thousand acreas of public land,(if I remmember right) what a shame, especially since the public has spent many millions fighting fires and reseeding the area. If people would care a little more about giving back there would be much more opportunity for young and future hunters. Ranchers have always complained, thats what they do, a million bucks and a cadillac won't change that fact, but they are usually good hard working people, all thats missing are the hunters and some honest dialogue.
 
Having more elk will not take away anyone's livelihood. We are talking about public land not private land. There are over 500,000 cows ran on public land every year and how many elk "11,000". The B.S. that we need cattle to stop fires is just that B.S.!! Why do we have all the weeds and non-native grasses "cattle"? Piper you are so right on the money on Cliff and Grant both have an agenda and both are full of chit!! 100% propaganda by them to convince the people with no knowledge. It's not broke don't fix it is just a waste. There is no reason why we should not have double and triple the number of elk.
 
Elko: True, and I don't say manage only for elk, but for the overall experience and quality of animals. What state can you go to, and go into any unit in that state, and have a chance at a true trophy, Nevada!!! More tags will lower the quality. With elk, they seem to be trying to do just that. I hunt Utah, as often as I can, for deer and its a madhouse out there. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't mind since it reminds me of hunting back east when I was young and using the hoards of hunters to my advantage. But in Nevada, the hunt is still uncrowded and adventureous. I believe with some predator and wild horse control our populations will grow again. All hunters during any season they draw should be on the lookout for coyotes and shoot onsite. If each one of us shot just one coyote the effects would be noticeable in future years. This year in Utah I saw 3 coyotes attack a group of 9 does and try to spilt the younger deer off from the main group. I blew it when I tried to get in between the group and even the odds, but the wind was going the wrong way. Deer 1 and dogs 0 hunter 0. I will continue to do my best to elimate my 1 dog for the year while hunting. Best of luck on dog control , wild horses?????
 
I will say this. If there is an area that needs a management hunt it's area 6! Wow, we where hunting over in 067 and 068 and out of around 200 head we saw over 50 spike-rag horn 5s runing around! Way to meny little bulls. Biggest bull we saw maybe would have went 330. Same thing over in 072 this year. Tons of spikes. So we do need a "management bull elk hunt" in some areas. But all areas? So I geuss we're back to where we started..........
 
Has anyone herd anymore about this?

("For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8-9")
 
Well humm.. I geuss I will be hunting for a 390 6x6 with one point busted off!

("For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8-9")
 
http://elkodaily.com/lifestyles/article_c30b5e1a-2b5b-11e0-afd1-001cc4c03286.html



In addition, the Nevada Department of Wildlife?s recommendation to the commission on having management bull elk seasons described in regulations as converting all muzzleloader bull seasons to ?management bull seasons? along with archery, create a new any legal weapon management bull season and have the option to set cow elk season after the bull seasons.
 
i hunted the Jarbidge in 2009. the only logical way to keep an eye on the elk herd would give me an elk tag ... say every 3rd year {i dont want to be greedy, ha ha} i think Nevada has done a great job of managing the elk so far. why not transplant to new habitat?
 

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