Lots of bulls---Few bucks

Founder

Founder

Founder Since 1999
Messages
11,474
I spent 5 days on the Beaver unit here in Utah during the muzzleloader hunt. I have to say, if Utah was my only option as a place to hunt deer, I honestly think I would retire from deer hunting.

Things have sure changed in the past 15 years. 15 years ago, a guy could find a few really good bucks in the area. Now, you're hard pressed to find a 2 year old buck.

The elk are doing great down there! Lots of what I consider Big Bulls, but obviously my idea of big is far different than most and the UDWR, because although there are many 6x6 bulls that will die of old age, there are still very few tags available.
Management by inches. Maybe with so many 400+ bulls being killed, we'll see 1-2 more tags in some of these better elk units???

In 5 days, I saw only one 4 point buck. I will admit, I saw lots of does, fawns, and yearling bucks. BUT, with ATV trails and roads everywhere, I would imagine that most of those yearling bucks will be spending the winter in someones freezer.
Roads & ATV trails everywhere!! It's crazy!

I hate to see it!! I was down there helping dad find a big bull, but all I could think about was the deer and how things have changed. It's hard to hear about all the GIANT bulls that are being killed on the mountain, while seeing that the deer quantity and quality has tanked so much over the past 15 years.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
I'D ALSO LIKE TO SEE YOUR DADS BULL!!!

I AGREE,I'VE BEEN WATCHING THE DEER HERDS GOING DOWNHILL FOR 35 YEARS!!!

ITS FAIRLY EASY ARITHMETIC THOUGH!!!

EVERY PLACE,EVERY NOOK,EVERY CRANNY,EVERY RIDGE HAS A LOWLIFE WHEELER TRAIL ON IT NOW DAYS!!!

HUNTING SEASONS THAT RUN FROM MID AUGUST THROUGH JANUARY!!!

PLACES WE HIKE INTO LEAGALLY THAT TAKE A COUPLE OF HOURS CAN NOW BE ACCESSED BY IDIOTS IN 30 MINUTES ON A LAWBREAKING QUAD!!!

EVERY YEAR MORE ILLEAGAL TRAILS BUILT BY THESE LAZY IDIOTS!!!

THE LAZY ASS U.S. FOREST SERVICE NOT ENFORCING LAWS & RULES ANYWHERE!!!

THEY(USFS) ACTUALLY OPENED MORE ROADS THIS YEAR,DID ANYBODY NOTICE??

I SWEAR TO GOD THE UTE INDIAN TRIBE IS WAY SMARTER THAN THE WHITE GUYS,THEY DON'T ALLOW THEM(ATV'S) ON THEIR GROUND AT ALL,TRUTH MIGHT HURT FOR SOME OF YOU BUT ITS THE TRUTH!!!

LETS FACE IT FOUNDER,IF ME & YOU WERE HUNTED,PRESSURED AS MUCH AS BIG GAME IS TODAY WE'D EITHER BE DEAD OR DAMN NOC-TERNAL!!!

IT ALSO TAKES 5-8 YEARS FOR A BUCK TO SPORT HIS POTENTIAL HEADGEAR,THAT AIN'T HAPPENING MUCH ANYMORE,TO MANY PISSCUTTER KILLERS!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING WHEN IT GETS EVEN WORSE THAN IT IS NOW MAYBE THE FOREST SERVICE WILL WAKE THE HELL UP & SEE THE LIGHT,BUT BY THE TIME THEY DO IT WILL BE TOO DAMN LATE!!!
 
Bess, I TOTALLY agree with you!!! This quad schit has got to end,otherwise we will see less and less tags. Like I've said before, "you cant shoot a game animal out of a chute plane but, you sure in the hell can kill one off your quad or other means of 4 wheel transportation."
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-03-06 AT 07:42AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-03-06 AT 07:40?AM (MST)

I totally agree, we were on the Pahvant and it is the same way, MANY< MANY large bulls, very few deer, I don't think it has much to do with atvs, you can all say what you want, we've hunted the same area for 35 years, before the atvs it was the trucks and jeeps, and a ton more hunters, this year there where very few camps and very few atv.s I believe with so many elk on the mountain it is hard for the deer to compete, say what you want about competing for the same food, but you put that many elk on the mountain and IT WILL affect the deer. I have seen a large decline of bucks in the last 5 years, and a really large increase in bulls. Places were we always saw good bucks, know hold 10-15 6pt bulls. to much competition for realesate. I guarantee that 90% of the mature bulls on the Pahvant die of old age, for what? so a few rich guys and those lucky enough once in a lifetime to shoot a huge elk. What happended to the days when we all got excited to just be out there and have the opportunity to harvest a decent animal and put some food on the table. Anymore its all about the Horns. It is so competative and expensive, I can see why the 100's of thousand hunters in our state have quit! Think about all your family and freinds that use to be die hard hunters and now the could care less and have moved on to other thnigs in there lives. I know we can't have our cake and eat it to but it just seems we have moved from one extreme to the other. I wish the DWR could find a happy meduim. I hear rumours that the Division is considering opening up a few units like the Pahvant, and beaver to open bull units and reduce a "few of the Bulls. anyone else hearing those rumors.
 
You guys need to do better than "die of old age."

I have traveled many many miles in the mountains by horse back and have yet to find even one dead bull elk of old age.
 
I think we: SFW, FG. Have all lost focus on Mule Deer. Everyone is focused on the ELK herd.
 
I too saw very few deer in my elk unit. The focus has shifted and I will agree with Founder about the deer. It needs to get better some how. All I saw all year was a few forkies and one 20" 3 point.
 
Brian,

You know my stance on Utah's PATHETIC deer management or should I say HUMAN MANAGEMENT!

Until SFW and the MDF decide it's time to make some changes, the DWR will keep doing the same thing-WHICH DOESN'T WORK!!!

WAKE UP UTAH DWR!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-03-06 AT 08:42AM (MST)[p]Bobcat, you and your ATV nonsense is crap, If you hunted 35 years ago you know that there was a TON more pressure on deer, we had a freaken 235,000 hunters in the feild from october to late November, we could harvest 2-bucks and even a few does. Every camp had 20 hunters in it. We made organized drives that pushed every deer in the country past guns a blazing. There were twice the deer than we have now! If a buck made it through the hunt it was amazing. Your saying a Few Atv guys that don't walk more than 100 yards from the trail is ruining our hunts! You have got to be kidding me. That is the best thing for the deer. They hear them things for miles and have time to get out of dodge before the atv comes close. If you had any brains at all you would realize that the ATV is not the Problem. There are tons of factors involved in why our deer herds are in such bad shape, Tons of elk, less habitat for winter range, preditors, drought, and on and on. Give me a break on the ATV thing!
 
If you want a glimpse into the future of your deer herds look at the Mogollon Rim area of Arizona. Thriving elk herds and dwindling deer herds. Sadly it seems that both states know where they can make more money.
 
less and less buck tags are a good thing....
increase bull tags... stop blaming atv's!!!!!!!!!!
rm
 
It's definitely NOT just ATV's, it's too many roads in Utah---period. There is very, very little "remote" country where game can escape the hoards of hunters. Beaver, Dutton, Pahvant, Monroe, Fish Lake, & Boulder are all over run with roads/atv trails going everywhere. A guy would be hard pressed to be able to get 1-1/2 from any road in Utah.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
If
>you hunted 35 years ago
>you know that there was
>a TON more pressure on
>deer, we had a
>freaken 235,000 hunters in the
>feild from october to late
>November, we could harvest
>2-bucks and even a few
>does. Every camp had
>20 hunters in it.
>We made organized drives that
>pushed every deer in the
>country past guns a blazing.
> There were twice the
>deer than we have now!
>
There are
>tons of factors involved in
>why our deer herds are
>in such bad shape,

You do have a couple of good points, Dogwood. I'm sure the problem is not JUST ATV pressure though. I did an interview with a DWR official 10 years ago when I was a newslady down in Southern Utah. It was an interview with then Big Game Coordinator, Jeff Grandison. I was concerned about the decline in the deer herd back then. My family has hunted out in the Bookcliffs for over 70 years and the 2 years after the UDWR took that unit off 3 point or better it was a total slaughter. The next year there weren't many deer and then it was changed to a Draw hunt area. I wanted to know if the decline was related to them messing with the unit or what.

Grandison attributed it to several things: A freak overpopulation in the deer herd in the 60's, plenty of hunting pressure (we certainly all tagged out in our camp most years with over 20 tags), bad drought followed by heavy winter kill in 92'-93', and higher predation (bears and mtn. lions).

Wonder what he'd say now....10 years later. Maybe elk and ATVs are a factor??? I'm sure it can't be blamed upon just ONE thing.
 
I think all of us feel the same way, Deer populations are pathetic and elk are doing great, I guess what I would like to see is the division give hunters who have supported them for years with money and time have opportunities to harvest some of those bulls. It is nice to see 400 bulls, but come on, how many of you would love to shoot a decent 6x6 if you could, How many of you have never had that chance. Lets back off the deer a bit and close some areas in the state for a few years, let the herds come back and let some more hunters harvest some of those bulls.
 
Brian, I beg to differ with you on getting 1-1/2 miles from a road on the Dutton. I did it almost everyday for 29 days.
I agree with the atv's but would add other factors. On the Dutton I encountered 49 horses riding thru for TWO elk tags five miles from any atv's. I assure you that this group scared/harassed wildlife as much as a couple of guys on atv's could ever do. The next week they had 70 riders looking for ONE elk tag. When someone questioned them about all the litter and dust they were threatened with bodily harm.
Until Utah manages deer with the same level of importance as elk they will suffer. I have found dead mature bulls on LE units and see it as a good thing. Who says ever bull elk needs to be killed at the hands of a hunter?
I saw several 26"+ bucks this fall, not as many years ago but not as bad as I have been led to beleive on this forum.
 
> A guy would
>be hard pressed to be
>able to get 1-1/2 from
>any road in Utah.
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com


No there are places, the problem is there just isnt any deer worth hiking that far to get too. The largest and most deer I've seen this year with 1 exception are all very low, around houses and roads.


-DallanC
 
Man we talk about this a great deal, but things seem to stay the same.
I agree with dogwood: Hunt more Elk. I really do not care if Utah is number 1 in BC Elk. That does nothing for me. I would like to hunt a 350 bull sometime in my life.
I agree with Founder: limit access. Idaho has several units where you cannot use ATVs during Hunting season. It has made a difference.
I also agree that the DWR knows where the money is and is focused on ELK ELK ELK.

Founder:
Are there any initiatives within SFW to help our Deer Herds? Just curious maybe we can get on the band wagon to help.

Thanks
 
Interesting read here.. A couple of years ago on this site it seems like all you ever read about was how the lions were to blame for all the deer problems.

But the lions have been slaughtered hard for a number of years and in many places the deer herds haven't really bounced back like they thought they would with the removal of lions.

Thing is lions and deer have co-existed for years and years long before we came along. I know they eat deer, but a lot of things have changed since the 60's.

Development, human encroachment, more roads, more traffic, and many other things come to mind. Canyons like Spanish Fork canyon were just little two lane roads in the 60's with those old cars probably lucky to get going 60 MPH. Now much of that canyon in three lanes and if you go 65 in that canyon, they'll run you over. Cars and big trucks FLYING up and down that canyon, as well as others. A deer has a remote chance at best crossing that in one piece.

Another thing is when my dad came up, he was using an old 30-30 for awhile and then a 30-06 with an old rickety scope. They weren't pounding deer at 600 or 700 yards... or more. Plus now it seems like they start hunting deer in August and guys are still chasing them around Christmas in the foothills with bows.

When my dad came up in the hey-day, deer season was for a couple of weeks in October. Deer season now seems to go on for four months.

And I'm sorry, but I don't have any more faith in a wildlife biologist then I do in a fortune teller looking into a crystal ball. So when they tell me the rising elk herd and the declining deer herd is "coincidental"... well whatever.

That's like telling your buddy that him sleeping with his bosses wife and losing his job was just "coincidental." :)

Lot of different factors and finally people are starting to realize it never was as simple as just killing off all the lions. If it was that easy we would be overrun with deer now.

But I'm also not so sure it's as bad as many would preach. I have seen some HUGE deer shot this year and a couple of years ago when the big snow came... all of the sudden big deer were falling everywhere. And everyone was shocked, but no one more than the DWR and me. Turns out those big bucks were out there, just took some deep snows to push them down into all the hunters.

I think the wildlife groups are doing all they can, or at least trying to... and maybe things aren't really as bleak as some would have you believe. But there is no "Easy Button" you can just push and fix it all.

And some people are at different stages or levels when it comes to deer hunting. Many are only looking for a trophy caliber mule deer and they might be disappointed in what they find.

I have a 15 year old nephew who has never shot a deer yet, actually never had a chance at a buck yet in the wilds... and come opening morning if a two or three point runs past him, he is going to blaze away and I'll make no apologies for it. That will be a trophy to him and I'll tell him to drop the hammer.

I think it's headed in the right direction and sometimes we just need patience. But I have seen some dandy deer taken on the archery and muzzleloader hunts this year. And look at the bright side -

The chances of you shooting a trophy mule deer in Utah are about 100X better then your chances at killing a trophy lion. So if anybody should be complaining, it should be ME!!! ;-)
 
The only places you can hunt w/bow in Dec in the extended areas and the DWR is trying to have more deer killed in these areas not less. With all the population growth going on the only solution I can see is to make the deer hunt similar to the elk hunt and make most of the state LE. I dont like it but I dont see a whole of realistic options out there.
 
It's very simple!! Look at the cost of a deer tag compared to that of an elk tag...

Idaho- non-resident
deer- 258.50
ELK- 372.50


Nevada- non-resident

deer- 240.00
ELK- 1200.00......Someone please tell me this is wrong!!!!

Wyoming- non-resident

deer- 261.00
ELK- 481.00

Now do you guys get it?
 
Everyone here talks about the problem but they dont realize it. You all talk about how many elk there are and not many deer. Well no S#iT. If you are seeing tons of elk everywhere then of course there is not going to be as many deer. I remember going to utah when i was a kid going all over beaver, dutton, etc. and there were deer everywhere, and hardly ever saw any elk. Well, the tide has changed. The habitat cant support huge heards of both species, and as you all see elk are taking over. The states management plan for deer and elk seem to be drastically different. We all know how hard it is to get an elk tag in utah and it doesnt make sense when there are so many quality animals roaming the hills. Utah needs to increase elk permits and cut way back on deer tags and close down some units as they have done in the past to try and help the deer rebound.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-03-06 AT 03:05PM (MST)[p]
Nobody knows exactly why deer herds have declined so much in Utah, and the west in general. There is no one "silver bullet" that will solve the problem. In states like NV they have really limited tags for bucks. This has resulted in an increased age class for bucks and a higher buck to doe ratio, but the populations still are in decline.

I am a fan of killing more elk in Utah. I think managing for 400" bulls is ridiculous. In order to shoot 400" bulls you can only harvest <1% of your bulls each year. I think that if a private landowner wants to manage for 400" bulls that is great, but on public land with a public resource we should let more people enjoy harvesting these bulls. If we managed for 300" bulls we could shoot 13% of our bulls annually. You still wouldn't draw a tag every year, but it wouldn't be a once in a lifetime tag like it practically is now. When it comes to a managment focus on deer vs. elk, I am not willing to trade a lifetime of crappy deer hunting for one big bull. I don't even think big bulls are a good business decision for the DWR. For guides and outfitters they might be, but the division is leaving a lot of money on the table by not harvesting more bulls under the current managment scheme. And now we increase all age objectives by one year! Most units will still be over objective, but whenever someone suggests adding additional tags people flip out. "What you are going to add 4 more bull tags? That is it, the end of big bulls in Utah." I say Save a deer, shoot an elk. If you really want to shoot a 400 inch bull start saving your money and get the know the White Mtn. Apaches or San Carlos Reservation.

Dax
 
So why and how does Colorado support the best mule deer hunting in the West and the largest elk herds in the West???
 
Colorado has both because they have a LOT more habitat to support both. Most of Utah is desert.
Colorado has twice as many deer with about the same number of people hunting them. More bucks survive from year to year. Also, in Colorado, there's lots of remote country that is road and atv trail free. No such place in Utah. Deer can grow old if it's even just a little difficult for people to get to them. It's just too easy to access almost every place in Utah.
Our most remote country is some of the deserts of southern Utah and the Uintas, neither area has many deer.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Brian, again I disagree with part of what you say, "Colorado has twice as many deer with about the same number of people hunting them", please tell me this is a typo?! I'll agree with you on the habitat but prism's point is still valid, if elk push out deer why does Colorado have both in the same areas? Utah's problem is people wanting the best of everything w/o any sacrifices. Cant have high numbers and everyone hunting every year.
As for the comment that 300 inch bulls should be good for all is assine, people get upset when Don says go to Colo. for small bulls yet you say BUY a tag on an Indian Reservation for a chance at a 400 inch bull. WTF are you smoking? How about some commonsense in this? Sorry, WTF was I thinking of?
 
I wonder if it has anything to do with everyone and their grandma out hunting for a trophy buck? Before the internet you could actually keep good areas a secret. Now, thanks to sites like this, and Garth Carter whoring out the west and its deer herds, everyone is a big buck hunter and a shed hunter.

How many people like Founder are hunting in CO every year on landowner tags? Hunting mulies has gone from a fall pastime, to a contest and money game.

After talking to people in UT, sounds like if there is a good buck spotted somewhere, everyone in the state knows about it, and Moss and his boys are camped out on it waiting.

Same thing is happening to Colorado.
 
I can't speak for Utah, but Colorado has a resilient deer herd due in part to the all draw system. The quality and quantity of deer in areas with tight limits on tags is very good. Other areas not so good. The price in not being able to hunt where you grew up hunting unless you are willing to wait, and wait....
 
What part are you hoping is a typo? Colorado has twice as many deer and about the same number of people hunting them. ????

Colorado has an estimated deer population of 700,000. 125,000 tags were sold in CO last year. That includes female and either sex tags.

Utah has an estimated 280,000 deer. 97,000 tags are sold here each year.

Do you still want to ask why Colorado has more quality deer?

The state of Colorado is 20% larger than Utah.
5.1% of Colorado is designated as wilderness (3.4 million acres). 1.5% of Utah is wilderness (800,000 acres).
Colorado has 14.5 million national forest acres. Utah has 8.1 million NF acres.
Colorado has 42 million private acres. Utah has 18 million private acres. Private acres often have less hunting pressure than public acres. Private acres also land-lock lots of public land.
Colorado also has higher annual precipitaion than Utah, which results in more feed for wildlife.
It's quite apparent to me WHY Colorado has better deer herd quality. And, with far more wildlife habitat, it's obvious WHY there are more deer and elk.

Utah needs to play the hand we have been dealt. I highly doubt we will ever see 400,000 deer in this state, especially a sustained herd of 400,000. We've been hearing for years that the solution is more deer. I'm tired of hearing that. It might never happen. While we're waiting for all those bushes to grow, we need to be doing something to improve quality NOW. Obviously quality elk are important, quality deer should be too!!!

Much can be done.
1-Stop selling tags that go undersubscribed.
2-Offer some 3-point or better hunts.
3-lets get some seasonal road closures.
4-Lets cut deer season lengths.
5-Lets restructure season dates to lower success rate, let some bucks survive.
6-Lets offer hunts in which quality is measured by fewer hunters afield, but that reduce success rate.
The list of the many small things that will make a difference goes on and on.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
4000fps - I'm always the first to admit that I might be part of the problem. The sole purpose of this site is to excite people about hunting big bucks and bulls. That excitement makes tags tougher to draw and puts more pressure on trophy animals---no doubt.

My dad has pounded exactly what you're saying into my head for the past couple years. But, it's too late to change all that now. Now we have to play the hand we have.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
First off, this is a great thread and topic that SHOULD be
discussed. Regardless, of what everyone believes it is obvious
the Utah deer herd is in trouble.

The biggest problem with the herd IMO is Us. Over hunting and
loss of habitat. I hear the arguement "are you willing to give up hunting for a few years"? My answer is yes, absolutely! We need to give out less tags and close more roads and trails.

As far as the elk go.... I like having them. However, they also
IMO have influenced the decline.

1- Habitat restoration (purchase/restore) land, limit development (good luck)

2- Less tags (I would be willing to pay more for a tag if quantities were reduced.

3- Keep some of the units managed for 7 year class bulls. Others, manage them for 3-4 year old age objective.

As Brian said, we have much less habitat in Utah than in CO. Maybe this the reason that it is more difficult for large deer and elk herds to co-exist????

I am not saying I am right, all I am saying is something different needs to be done. I am not sure if SFW or the DWR sees the problem with the Mule Deer herd. I hope they do
 
Founder,

First off I love big bulls on my wall, on MM, in magazines and anywhere else they show up. It is exciting to me personally.

You bring up a great point though. Yes, there has to be that fine line between offering the most tags while keeping these big bulls around. What is it? What is the bull to cow ratio? I do not know. I fear too many hunters on a unit regardless of size will diminish the experience. What is that number? I do not know that either.

The point you make is why are bulls to cows ratio so high while deer is maintained at such a low number like 15 to 100? I would say 30 to 100 would be a much better number. One thing that needs to be pointed out. If tags are reduced to reach that number as part of the equation, then people will be sitting home for a few years. So how does this happen when people are wanting elk tags now and throwing fits because they cannot draw? I would love to see deer tags reduced to 50k to try and rebound the herd. I would also like to see less roads and access.

It is clear to me that people want more deer! They want BIGGER deer also, but be careful what we ask for if the current elk herd makes us mad. It sure is funny how people always apply for the best units for quality when opportunity is what they speak. Actions speak louder than words.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-03-06 AT 07:27PM (MST)[p]All of you have good points in my opinion. I think my buddy and I spent way to much time over the past few days of the deer muzzleloader hunt wondering if we should lower our standards in order to even pull the trigger.

It seems that the extreme is on both sides. As a Utah hunter I can look forward to:

An OIL hunt for a Goat sometime in my life

A "Once in a Lifetime" Big Bull hunt in Utah

The possiblity of a LE Deer and Lope tag over the next 30 years.

And on the other extreme, Hunt all three deer hunts as a dedicated hunter every year in the general unit of my choosing.

There absolutely has to be a "meet in the middle" solution.

As far as the balance between Elk/Deer. I would venture treating each unit as it's own echo system with Deer and Elk tags managed to create good quality with good opportunity. It may not always seem "good" but it could always be better than "Bad" and could be "excellent" with a little luck!

An example may be the Book Cliffs where both are limited and managed for "good" quality and "good" opportunity.

Preference points would help hold a place in line and most years you would be able to hunt something somewhere in Utah.

If not, I guess you can always go to Colorado, Idaho or Wyoming.

Just some thoughts.....
 
Brian and lots of others are correct,

Do something before it's to late. It would not hurt to hunt another state here and there.
Go east and hunt whitetails if you need to hunt. Or just waite a few years for the whitetails to take over Utah you will have more deer than you could kill.
I am sure everyone is on the same page we cannot afford the big buck$ to hunt primium private land and want a quality place to hunt down the road that a local guy doesn't have to travel a 1,000 miles to get to.
Bowguy
 
I agree that something needs to be done but realistically the only way to get the trend going the right direction is to micromanage the entire state and close several units to hunting for the 5 year period. We have all seen what the Book Cliffs has gone through. I predict that the Book Cliffs will be as good as the Henry's within the next couple of years. I also think that the BLM and Forest Service need to close some more roads during hunting season. These single track "dirt bike" roads are a joke during any hunting season. It looked like a motocross race during the archery elk hunt. It will take several years to see a diference but history tells us that hunters are traditionally selfish people and are not willing to give up a couple of seasons of "family tradition" hunting to improve the situation. It would be nice if there was a deer population to hunt when my girls are ready to pull the trigger.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-03-06 AT 09:11PM (MST)[p]Utah has plenty of deer habitat. Too bad its overgrown with mature pinion/juniper jungles that support far less deer than the historical mosaic type habitat models. The sagebrush hillsides and flats of days-gone-by have overgrown with heavy PJ. We all have lost way too much habitat to the phenomena all over the West, IMO.

There aren't enough groundpounders and habitat restoration projects available to reclaim the habitat in Utah to times when deer numbers were much higher. Throw in drought and top it off with "coyote getters" being outlawed in the early 70's and you have a steady and systemic decline of deer.

Colorado is good now but the DOW is steadily ratcheting back the tag numbers to what they were previously before the drastic reductions of the late 90's. Add the fourth seasons into the mix
(which seem to be increasing in qualifying units every year)and you have a recipe to go right back where we started. We haven't had a winter kill since 92-93 and that was primarilly confined to the southwestern portion of the state. How long can Colorado maintain the current quality. Not long with this management plan and the snow is already stacked up on the high peaks.

Look at what happened to Wyoming. Heavy hunting pressure by trophy concious hunters in G & H over a decade, increasing resident hunting pressure and harvest secondary to the oil and gas boom and a nasty winter that killed off quite a few of the older age class bucks. The quality is but a shadow of what it was just a few short years back.

No matter how many other mortality factors mule deer bucks are exposed to, drastic tag and hunting pressure reduction have shown time and time again to be the best way to increase buck to doe ratios.

You say Utah is half desert and can't support deer like Colorado. Well that hotter than hell, barren-ass rock heap out in the middle of a giant salt lake called Antelope Island has the biggest damn deer in your whole state.

You can't shoot all the little bucks if you want some big ones!
 
>Utah has plenty of deer habitat.
> Too bad its overgrown
>with mature pinion/juniper jungles that
>support far less deer than
>the historical mosaic type habitat
>models. The sagebrush hillsides and
>flats of days-gone-by have overgrown
>with heavy PJ. We all
>have lost way too much
>habitat to the phenomena all
>over the West, IMO.
>
>There aren't enough groundpounders and habitat
>restoration projects available to reclaim
>the habitat in Utah to
>times when deer numbers were
>much higher. Throw in
>drought and top it off
>with "coyote getters" being outlawed
>in the early 70's and
>you have a steady and
>systemic decline of deer.
>
>Colorado is good now but the
>DOW is steadily ratcheting back
>the tag numbers to what
>they were previously before the
>drastic reductions of the late
>90's. Add the fourth
>seasons into the mix(which seem
>to be increasing in qualifying
>units every year)and you have
>a recipe to go right
>back where we started.
>We haven't had a winter
>kill since 92-93 and that
>was primarilly confined to the
>southwestern portion of the state.
> How long can Colorado
>maintain the current quality.
>Not long with this management
>plan and the snow is
>already stacked up on the
>high peaks.
>
>Look at what happened to Wyoming.
> Heavy hunting pressure by
>trophy concious hunters in G
>& H over a decade,
>increasing resident hunting pressure and
>harvest secondary to the oil
>and gas boom and a
>nasty winter that killed off
>quite a few of the
>older age class bucks.
>The quality is but a
>shadow of what it was
>just a few short years
>back.
>
>No matter how many other mortality
>factors mule deer bucks are
>exposed to, drastic tag and
>hunting pressure reduction have shown
>time and time again to
>be the best way to
>increase buck to doe ratios.
>
>
>You say Utah is half desert
>and can't support deer like
>Colorado. Well that hotter
>than hell, barren-ass rock heap
>out in the middle of
>a giant salt lake called
>Antelope Island has the biggest
>damn deer in your whole
>state.
>
>You can't shoot all the little
>bucks if you want some
>big ones!


EXCELLENT POST!

I am tired of hearing "I couldnt find a good deer so I shot a forky on the last day" and hearing some of the same people whine about the lack of quality deer.

Drum
 
Utah has plenty of deer habitat. Too bad its overgrown with mature pinion/juniper jungles that support far less deer than the historical mosaic type habitat models. The sagebrush hillsides and flats of days-gone-by have overgrown with heavy PJ. We all have lost way too much habitat to the phenomena all over the West, IMO.
There aren't enough groundpounders and habitat restoration projects available to reclaim the habitat in Utah to times when deer numbers were much higher. Throw in drought and top it off with "coyote getters" being outlawed in the early 70's and you have a steady and systemic decline of deer.

Colorado is good now but the DOW is steadily ratcheting back the tag numbers to what they were previously before the drastic reductions of the late 90's. Add the fourth seasons into the mix (which seem to be increasing in qualifying units every year)and you have a recipe to go right back where we started. We haven't had a winter kill since 92-93 and that was primarilly confined to the southwestern portion of the state. How long can Colorado maintain the current quality. Not long with this management plan and the snow is already stacked up on the high peaks.

Look at what happened to Wyoming. Heavy hunting pressure by trophy concious hunters in G & H over a decade, increasing resident hunting pressure and harvest secondary to the oil and gas boom and a nasty winter that killed off quite a few of the older age class bucks. The quality is but a shadow of what it was just a few short years back.

No matter how many other mortality factors mule deer bucks are exposed to, drastic tag and hunting pressure reduction have shown time and time again to be the best way to increase buck to doe ratios.

You say Utah is half desert and can't support deer like Colorado. Well that hotter than hell, barren-ass rock heap out in the middle of a giant salt lake called Antelope Island has the biggest damn deer in your whole state.

You can't shoot all the little bucks if you want some big ones!
 
I DO NOT want to see all of Utah's deer hunting areas as limited as the Book Cliffs. That's not what I want.
I really believe that we can still have 65,000-75,000 deer tags, PLUS have a few more bucks and older bucks. I don't want to see the guys who really want to hunt cut out every other year or more often.

Small changes such as; seasonal road closures, a few 3-point or better areas, shorter seasons, earlier season dates, no more left-over tags after the draw, etc. could really help in allowing a few more bucks to grow just a little older.
I don't think we need to make drastic changes, just a few small changes and go from there.

I would like to see SFW and MDF push for some of these small changes being implimented ASAP and lets see where it takes us. UDWR and the sportsmen groups are all worried that by even mentioning changes to tag numbers, access, etc. is going to have sportsmen and group members of Utah up in arms.
The reality is, some will, but in the long run it will be best for sportsmen and mule deer to do something now so that we can enjoy some small difference in 8-10 years.

Of course I hope the deer herd increases as a result of all the money SFW, MDF, and all those auction tags put on the ground. But, maybe a deer herd increase won't ever happen. We need to do something with what we have now, not just sit on our hands and hope for more deer in 10 years.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
Brian,
The 3 point or better idea isn't the way to go. The Book Cliffs used to be that way and I archery hunted it every year. Yes there were some big bucks and yes there were a lot of bucks but it was in no way what it is today and the more people that found out about it the less deer you saw. I have watched closely the closure of units like the Book Cliffs and the Vernon units. Thank God they didn't do to the Book Cliffs what they did to Vernon. After the closure on the Vernon unit they gave out over 150 tags for the rifle season alone in the first year. It was a massacre. Smaller units and limited tags are the only way to improve the deer herds here. 90,000 tags is a joke.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
dogwood KISS MY TAIL!!!

dogwood!!!

ALRIGHT YOU'VE CHANGED MY MIND A LITTLE!!!

I'VE DECIDED ITS NOT THE WHEELER TO BLAME!!!

I HOPE YOU'RE NOT STILL MAD AT ME!!!

THIS TOOK ALOT OF THOUGHT TO FIGURE OUT ONE OF THE PROBLEMS!!!

BUT AFTER SERIOUS THINKING I'VE CAME TO A CONCLUSION!!!

IT AIN'T THE WHEELER,YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!!

ITS THE LOWLIFE LAWBREAKING PRICK THATS GOT HIS HANDS ATTATCHED TO THE HANDLEBARS!!!

THE ONLY bobcat HOPEING YOU'RE STILL NOT MAD AT ME FOR BLAMEING THE WHEELER!!!
 
I think it would be a sad day though if we had 40 units with a total of 300 tags each. 12,000 people per year would get to hunt deer. It would take 8 years to give all 97,000 current deer hunters an opportunity to hunt deer. I think I would just hang it up if I only got to hunt every 8 years.

I don't think massive, drastic opportunity cuts are needed. I don't think we need a bunch of units with huge bucks, we just need it a little better than it is.

You hit the nail on the head when you said about the 3-point or better, "Yes there were some big bucks and yes there were a lot of bucks."
THAT'S ALL WE NEED! We don't need a bunch of highly limited areas, just a few more older bucks on the hill. A few less hunters and more remote areas for deer to hide would make a huge difference.
I hunted the 3-point or better areas back in the day too and it was FUN to see 4 point bucks. Sure, lots of them got shot. But it's more fun to kill a 4-point than a 2-point.

It sounds like you are proud of what the Book Cliffs have become, that's great, but would you really want the entire state to be as difficult to draw a tag as the Book Cliffs?

I personally do like to hunt more often than once every few years.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
I agree with Brian, we need more diverse deer hunting opportunities here in Utah. I don't think we need a whole state full of Herny Mtn or even Bookcliff type units. But we need something better than the current state of most of the general units. Deer hunting in Utah is Heaven and Hell. You wait 8+ years and hunt a unit that is deer hunting heaven, or you hunt general season every year and it is hell. If we could have an earlier season, and give the DWR the ability to manage smaller herd units we could provide some more middle of the road type units. I sent an email to the Utah SFW contact saying the same thing and have not recieved a reply. I will try again, and will also email my MDF representative. I really think that in Utah we need SFW and MDF to help us:

1. Lobby our state legistlature to allow the DWR to change the opening date of the rifle hunt to make it earlier.

2. To convince the DWR to manage deer in smaller units with diverse quality criteria.

3. Find a way to help the Forest Service and BLM to enforce current ATV rules, and pursue more seasonal road closures

4. To get the DWR to increase the percentage of hunters using primitive (less effective) weapons

Dax
 
" You cant shoot all the little bucks if you want some big ones" Credit Buckspy.
IMO, Thats the most profound statement on this thread. Two years ago Utah had the once every 10 year winter storm prior to the rifle opener. We hammered the bucks. The area I hunt we counted 8 mature bucks out feeding in a flat that is traditionly winter range the night before opening morn.Next day, By the time the sun completly cleared the horizon they were all dead. Following year were all killing yearling bucks. Its a safe bet that this year will be the same , a harvest of young bucks. IMO the first step in recovering Utahs deer herd is control. The UDWR needs to be able to react now(not within a 3 year plan) to whatever effects buck to doe ratios , age class and total numbers.When the harvest is way higher than anticipated they need to cut harvest the following seasons. The only way to manage deer is to micro manage the indivisual herds(units) Thats were we need to start IMO.Right now they issue 97000 tags reguardless of the prior seasons harvest. No control! I know the UDWR proposed the Idea of micro management a few years ago. Why did SFW kill it?
 
Brian,
You and I share some of the same wants. I am happy that the Book Cliffs have returned to huntable populations of quality mule deer. I still believe that you need smaller units to distribute the pressure and if you want what you say you want you are going to have to give up the deer hunting, or at least slow it down, for several years to get the population back to where it should be. There is no reason why the whole state can't be like the Book Cliffs or the Henry Mountains. Oh I forgot that there is a reason, TOO MUCH PRESSURE. A friend of mine made a very good observation. Colorado has 3 times the number of deer we do with the same amount of hunters. Go figure.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
The saddest thing about all this is that when it is all said and done, it does come down to the almighty dollar. We can accept that and try to make the most of it for the species we all love, or we can sit back and complain behind our computer screens.

What has been and always will be my biggest gripe about the whole thing is that, since I can remember, the selling of deer tags has footed the bill for almost all of Utah's other big game and the projects needed to build them up. But do the deer receive the financial help they need when they so desperately need it? No!

I just attended a RAC meeting in southern Utah not too long ago and I was absolutley floored to hear how far in the hole the DWR is! The propsed tag increases for 2008 is not so that state employees get new trucks every year, it is so that we can begin to crawl our way out of an over 3 million dollar debt! When I think that the selling of mule deer tags has been the biggest revenue for the state, and then hear that we are this far in the hole.....my mind is a mess trying to understand how we can cut tags and keep our state from going bankrupt at the same time! I too would like to see micro-managed deer units like Colorado has! I too would like to see deer tags cut and elk tags increased! But I just don't know how to juggle management and finances at the same time. I know there are plenty of ways to try and do this, believe me, I have thought of plenty.....but when it is all said and done, I always come back to one thing that will inevitably help our deer herds - kill more elk!

When elk tags in Utah start paying for their own species, I will stop making this statement. When just as many residents and non-residents alike get to experience Utah's "WORLD-CLASS" (as it has been posted elsewhere on this site), elk hunting then I will stop making this statement. When Utah's DWR understands that we can no longer manage our entire state's deer herds on a blanket scheme, then I will stop making this statement.

Guys, I love to hunt big bulls. Very few things get me as excited as hearing a bull bugle or seeing a big bull just be as majestic as he is. But, that passion falls far short of the passion I have for mule deer. I know and accept that I will probably never get to experience hunting one of Utah's limited entry elk units. Heck, I know and understand that I will probably only get to experience that once with Utah's limited entry deer units...(if I'm lucky). But I have hunted and, potentially had a chance, (granted a small chance because of my great hunting skills), at harvesting a big buck every year since I was 14 years old in Utah. Mule deer instilled the passion and fire of hunting that is in me and that still is....to this day. I guess that is why I have such a hard time swallowing the fact that they are the ones who need the financial and management help, and we are continually boasting about Utah's great elk herds. Not too mention that when a few good bucks are finally taken, some are quick to announce "Utah is back"!!! Ha!

I don't buy into the whole roadless thing either, I agree that hoards of ATV's keep more deer alive than you think. If you disagree, go to the Henry's during the rifle season. Most of the same bucks you saw during the velvet are still in the same place, or close to it, without a care in the world. Not saying that the Henry's deer are dumb, but there isn't enough human presence in most places on the Henry's to "educate" them any wiser. But if that same buck was on the Pahvant on opening morning, he would be tucked down in the darkest hole he could find trying to hide from all the noise and dust. And besides that, there is GOBS of wilderness area in southern Utah far away from roads. Most tend to believe that these areas are just flourishing with deer and that big bucks are a dime a dozen, but this is a farce. Just because human presence isn't an object, does not mean that deer herds are huge beyond control in these areas. I am not talking desert conditions either. I have seen phenomenal summer, winter, and transitional zones here in southern Utah that have not so much as an old two-tracker on them and you are lucky to cut a deer track or two. Lions and coyotes? Perhaps, but I do not know exactly.

I will go to my grave saying that elk are the #1 problem for Utah's deer. Am I so naive to think that this is the only problem.....ABSOLUTLEY NOT!! But it is one that is easily controlled by us --- kill more of them!!!!

I know this topic will go on long after I am dead, and I also know that I have rambled way too long so please forgive me. Although I visit MM often, I rarely post. But when something touches close to home, I must speak. Thanks for listening and when you think of what fired up the passion of hunting in you......remember what you have had an opportunity to hunt since you were old enough to pursue big game in Utah - it wasn't mature bulls, it was mule deer!
 
It is easy to see what we could possibly have from looking at the Henry's and the Book Cliffs and their controlled management. The big question is whether we as sportsman will support the idea of not hunting every year, and then paying more for permits to offset the loss of revenue from the sale of less deer permits..
Why doesn't some of the BIG money from Conservation Permits get pulled back to the Division to help their funding? I'm sure those programs don't go in the hole every year!! I know the biggest share of the money is supposed to go to the organizations for management projects, but isn't being able to reduce the number of hunters and not hurt the division financially a pretty good project? Just a thought and I'll probably get shot down here but we all know we have to start somewhere.
The problem will always be there as far as opportunity for everyone to hunt, but I think we need to sacrifice a year here or there to help out.
 
Antlerrick ~

The conservation tag program, being as touchy as it is, will never be bothered as far as what the proceeds go towards. That money is ear-marked for habitat projects only.....period. I agree with you that we should try to find a way to have some of the funding go towards getting the division back into the green but, it unfortunately it is a subject so tender to the touch that I see it staying the way it is......always.

I wish I had a cut and dry easy solution, but as with anything complex it is never that simple.
 
I am getting the same reports from the muzzy hunters. Big bulls and lots of them. Lots of yearling bucks, no mature bucks. Micromanagement is the only answer. Lets organize ourselves and get it done. Sportmans for Micromanaging mule deer(SFMMD). Who wants to join?

Mike

It really chaps my hide when a big buck is killed on a place like the Henry's and than SFW is the first to stand up and say the old days are back (maybe for the 1% that are luck enough to draw the tag). Wake up SFW, DWR, MDF and all the other organizations that claim to be Mule Deer Advocates.
 
Dang BUCKSPY,

For an intelligent guy, you sure are a hypocrite. I can't believe that you would even post here considering that you are a direct part of the overall problem with trophy muley numbers.

You are a participant to and contributor to gang hunting, rutting/winter range trophy muley hunting, and then bragging about it in the mags and vids. What did you expect would come of all that???

When is the last time you gave a mature muley a chance, hunting, scouting, and doing it all by your lonesome? You and others in modern day trophy muley hunting can't even fathom that, huh?

Scout and whack a big October public land buck, Mike, then give some advice here. Otherwise...........get lost.

AZBH
 
I've always thought about using the party hunting strategy. Except just throw your family members tags away. You spend $40 extra bucks to keep a few less hunters on the hill, and just consider it a donation.

Hell if half the hunters did it a deer tag would only be $80 bucks and half the people.

Just a dumb idea.
 

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