It doesn’t “Seem” that way….. It is that way.Seems like it is much tougher to draw than 10 years ago
Correct. I knew I was swinging for the fences this yr rather than having lower odd hunts as my third choice, but it still sucks. Big game hunting became my passion while I lived out there and watching NRs get crapped on throughout the western states has been depressing to say the least.I assume you didn’t draw again like me in New Mexico
it gets tougher and tougher every year for NR's to draw tags. So if the odds get worse, you just need to increase the number of applications in hopes of drawing a tag (i.e. - if your odds are getting cut in half then you need to double the number of applications). My sons and I submit almost 200 applications each year in the major western big game states in hopes of drawing one or two tags each year. Yes, it is an expensive and frustrating game, but if you want to play and get decent tags, that is about the only way. The days are gone when you can just hunt one or two states and expect to get tags.It doesn’t “Seem” that way….. It is that way.
The outfitter Welfare system killed my streak in NM
Love NM big game draw ! I didn’t draw anything except a Land Owner tag from a guy in SW New Mexico…sent him a deposit today. He’ll get his unit wide tags in June. Y’all complaining about outfitters would complain about something else if they did away with it. Angry when you don’t draw, happy, happy when you do.
I put in with an outfitter and no dice in a fairly easy unit , but its all good, NM big game draw ! I didn’t draw anything except a Land Owner tag from a guy in SW New Mexico…sent him a deposit today. He’ll get his unit wide tags in June. Y’all complaining about outfitters would complain about something else if they did away with it. Angry when you don’t draw, happy, happy when you do.
Love NM big game draw ! I didn’t draw anything except a Land Owner tag from a guy in SW New Mexico…sent him a deposit today. He’ll get his unit wide tags in June. Y’all complaining about outfitters would complain about something else if they did away with it. Angry when you don’t draw, happy, happy when you do.
Many other states have welfare for outfitters. Idaho has set aside tags, similar to NM. Same with Nevada. Wyoming has the "wilderness law" that is even worse than outfitter set aside. AZ is a good example of a state that doesn't give a bunch of tags away to special interest.I'm not aware of any other state that has a welfare system for outfitters.
Many other states have welfare for outfitters. Idaho has set aside tags, similar to NM. Same with Nevada. Wyoming has the "wilderness law" that is even worse than outfitter set aside. AZ is a good example of a state that doesn't give a bunch of tags away to special interest.
RoughCountry,
The outfitter tags and similar laws are simply a welfare system for outfitters. Why should government give a preference to a specific group of people when it comes to a public resource? Politicians give away deals to the friends all the time. Just because it is a common practice, doesn't mean it is right.
Outfitter welfare or not nonresidents should realize that going from 16% of tags to 10% will not equate to better draw odds. It’s common sense.
No it doesn’t any resident that applies in that pool would have to be an idiot. The resident odds are much better than outfitter pool odds.10% of the tags in the outfitter pool are not all NR. Eleminating this pool benefits both residents and non residents alike.
Let’s ? for it to go away^^^ I think getting rid of the outfitter welfare system is something most everyone can agree on.
No it doesn’t any resident that applies in that pool would have to be an idiot. The resident odds are much better than outfitter pool odds.
Nm residents can improve their draw odds substantially for offrange oryx and Barbary sheep by applying in the outfitter pool. For bighorn, ibex, on range oryx, elk or antelope a resident will have higher draw odds applying as a resident vs in the outfitter pool.No it doesn’t any resident that applies in that pool would have to be an idiot. The resident odds are much better than outfitter pool odds.
It will increase the draw odds of residents. I'm a nonresident and I would be willing to have decreased odds on some hunts to remove the welfare system. Another problem with the outfitter draw is that mathematically I cannot even draw many of the pronghorn tags from the 6% nonresident pool because there are only 10 tags for pronghorns on many hunts. If nonresidents were given 10% of the tags, at least I would have a chance at drawing one of those tags which is better than my current 0%.Outfitter welfare or not nonresidents should realize that going from 16% of tags to 10% will not equate to better draw odds. It’s common sense.
There are only two reasons to want outfitter tags.I hate to see hunters go all woke and ruin the best draw in the west. I have been putting in for elk in AZ for almost 18 years straight and never have drawn an elk tag, got 19 non res points now, because AZG&F just changes things when they want to but in NM I’ve drawn a bunch of them and years I didn’t I buy a LO tag that some guys ***** about as bad as they do outfitters. Can’t make everyone happy I guess.
ABSOLUTELY TRUE!! I know people that do this crap every year and draw every damn year. Gaming the system no question.Nm residents can improve their draw odds substantially for offrange oryx and Barbary sheep by applying in the outfitter pool. For bighorn, ibex, on range oryx, elk or antelope a resident will have higher draw odds applying as a resident vs in the outfitter pool.
ABSOLUTELY TRUE!! I know people that do this crap every year and draw every damn year. Gaming the system no question.
I also agree all odds for NR and residents need to be equal. Meaning no outfittted NR vs NR and no resident vs outfitted resident. Nock it down to just 2 categories and make RO tags and we got a winner!
What has the AGFD changed with the draw in the last 20 years that prevented you from getting an elk permit?I hate to see hunters go all woke and ruin the best draw in the west. I have been putting in for elk in AZ for almost 18 years straight and never have drawn an elk tag, got 19 non res points now, because AZG&F just changes things when they want to but in NM I’ve drawn a bunch of them and years I didn’t I buy a LO tag that some guys ***** about as bad as they do outfitters. Can’t make everyone happy I guess.
10 years ago all 10% of the high demand nonresident tags would go to the nonresidents with the most pointWhat has the AGFD changed with the draw in the last 20 years that prevented you from getting an elk permit?
Another great example of why outfitter tags are a bad deal for most hunts. Maybe I should get an outfitters license so I can $$ in on the welfare.I know some people that took this very advantage when it was first implemented years ago. One person in the family circle got their outfitters number, and then members of the circle used that to draw tags - and they drew some really good tags. They still draw some really good tags.
Not a speculation. They talked about the advantage as though they won the lottery...
Because it create jobs and brings in gross receipt taxes.Many other states have welfare for outfitters. Idaho has set aside tags, similar to NM. Same with Nevada. Wyoming has the "wilderness law" that is even worse than outfitter set aside. AZ is a good example of a state that doesn't give a bunch of tags away to special interest.
RoughCountry,
The outfitter tags and similar laws are simply a welfare system for outfitters. Why should government give a preference to a specific group of people when it comes to a public resource? Politicians give away deals to the friends all the time. Just because it is a common practice, doesn't mean it is right.
For anyone below the maximum as he has been, that change was a benefit, not a hindrance. That's why I specifically typed 'you' in my question.10 years ago all 10% of the high demand nonresident tags would go to the nonresidents with the most point
(first pass of AZ draw).
This effectively made it a pure preference point system for all high demand nonresident tags. About 7? or 8? years ago AZ changed the nonresident allocation so only 50% the nonresident tags would go to the highest point holder (first pass) and 50% would be drawn in the 2nd pass. 80%+ of the resident tags are still drawn in the "2nd pass".
This rule change didn't prevent him from drawing an elk tag in AZ. There are plenty of great elk tags a nonresident can get in the 1st pass with 19 or less points. It could have increased the wait time for the one specific tag he wanted and I can see how many nonresidents felt scammed by AZ. Roughcountry is a perfect example of why point systems are a scam. The rules get changed after you have invested significant time and $$. Random draws like NM and ID are the way to go in my opinion.
Another great example of why outfitter tags are a bad deal for most hunts. Maybe I should get an outfitters license so I can $$ in on the welfare.
I thought you were asking a serious question. I can see how some AZ nonresident hunters would have been upset by the change. I was personally very happy when AZ made that change. I was able to draw a good AZ elk tag with zero points in the second pass a couple years after the change was made.For anyone below the maximum as he has been, that change was a benefit, not a hindrance. That's why I specifically typed 'you' in my question.
I hope they catch those that do cheat but you could easily create a “outfitter business” were multiple family and friends are “guides”. As long as one of your buddies who was a “guide” was with you on the first two days of your hunt it would be perfectly legal. I’m sure this really irritates the established outfitters when “their tags” are being stolen by “pseudo outfitter”.They put a stop to that with the contract in place before applying. Can you still cheat? Yep. But, if they're caught, the consequences are pretty steep..
Or you have common sense and realize going from 16% of tags down to 10% will not equal better draw odds for any nonresidentsThere are only two reasons to want outfitter tags.
#1 You are an outfitter and believe you are entitled to the welfare
#2 You hunt with outfitters and think the extra $$ you spend on outfitters entitles you to better odds than everyone else.
Everyone else views the outfitter 10% as welfare. Why not even the playing field and give all the nonresidents the same odds?
I’m hoping that was a sarcastic comment mocking the outfitter welfare.Because it create jobs and brings in gross receipt taxes.
My buddies in El Paso who used to draw frequently offered to pay for my guide license and all expenses associated with it if I would become a guide. I didn’t see good things happening for me by going that route. I’m sure it’s done though…I hope they catch those that do cheat but you could easily create a “outfitter business” were multiple family and friends are “guides”. As long as one of your buddies who was a “guide” was with you on the first two days of your hunt it would be perfectly legal. I’m sure this really irritates the established outfitters when “their tags” are being stolen by “pseudo outfitter”.
I do realize that it would likely decrease my odds slightly for some tags but it would also make it possible to draw some tags. It would also benefit residents who have been putting up with the outfitter welfare in their state.Or you have common sense and realize going from 16% of tags down to 10% will not equal better draw odds for any nonresidents
?Very true. It's a job most people dream about that they wish they can do and if it was their livelihood, I doubt they'd be bitching about it. Outfitters payout fees back to gov agencies for access permits, hired guides, cooks, groceries and fuel costs. There's alot of prep/admin time associated too. Preparing trip plans for every hunt on every national Forrest being hunted. A lot of detailed work behind the scenes takes place long before the hunt season starts. So I wouldn't call it a welfare program. It's more than jumping in a truck or taking a few guys on a stroll through the field and pocketing money.Because it create jobs and brings in gross receipt taxes.
Or you have common sense and realize going from 16% of tags down to 10% will not equal better draw odds for any nonresidents
Oh, I was. The devil is in the details.I thought you were asking a serious question. I can see how some AZ nonresident hunters would have been upset by the change. I was personally very happy when AZ made that change. I was able to draw a good AZ elk tag with zero points in the second pass a couple years after the change was made.
You are correct sir, I’ve seen guides here have porta potties delivered to their base camp.?Very true. It's a job most people dream about that they wish they can do and if it was their livelihood, I doubt they'd be bitching about it. Outfitters payout fees back to gov agencies for access permits, hired guides, cooks, groceries and fuel costs. There's alot of prep/admin time associated too. Preparing trip plans for every hunt on every national Forrest being hunted. A lot of detailed work behind the scenes takes place long before the hunt season starts. So I wouldn't call it a welfare program. It's more than jumping in a truck or taking a few guys on a stroll through the field and pocketing money.
By giving outfitters that 10%, it is taking opportunity away from other hunters (mostly residents) and providing extra $$ for outfitter and extra opportunity for those willing to give outfitters the $$.?Very true. It's a job most people dream about that they wish they can do and if it was their livelihood, I doubt they'd be bitching about it. Outfitters payout fees back to gov agencies for access permits, hired guides, cooks, groceries and fuel costs. There's alot of prep/admin time associated too. Preparing trip plans for every hunt on every national Forrest being hunted. A lot of detailed work behind the scenes takes place long before the hunt season starts. So I wouldn't call it a welfare program. It's more than jumping in a truck or taking a few guys on a stroll through the field and pocketing money.
Who are you to decide what is “fair”? Your perception of fair is likely very different than another person’s perception of fair. Is it fair that az/wy/co/nv allows hunters to purchase a bonus point or preference point in return for better draw odds? Is it fair that wy allows hunter to pay a premium for a “special license” in return for better draw odds? Is it fair that in order to hunt wilderness in wy, a nonresident has to hire an outfitter or be accompanied by wy resident? Is it fair that Kentucky will allow you to purchase an unlimited number of $10 lottery tickets for their elk draw? Is it fair that western states have to give a certain % of tags to nonresidents? I could go on & on forever with at least another 20 examples of what you would consider “unfair” but the point is nothing in life is 100% fair because “ fairness” is a concept we all define differentlyBy giving outfitters that 10%, it is taking opportunity away from other hunters (mostly residents) and providing extra $$ for outfitter and extra opportunity for those willing to give outfitters the $$.
The outfitters or guides that I’ve meet are hard working individuals and seem like great people. It would be good to have more people like that in NM. I’m just against government giving special interest groups “favors”.
I have applied in the guide draw in NM to increase my odds. I stopped doing it because I made the decision that I didn’t want to support the welfare system and it was hypocritical of me to take advantage of a system I disagreed with. Hiring a guide would actually be a good financial choice for me instead of taking time off work to scout and pack my own animals out. I get most of my satisfaction from hunting from putting in the time and effort, instead of pulling the trigger and collecting antlers. I guess I shouldn’t try to force my values on others.
Many of us are just asking for a level playing field for all nonresidents to be equal in the draw and all residents to be equal in the
The number of residents using the outfitter pool is equivalent to the number of people who have a 75’ house boat. It’s an anomaly not a statistically significant amount. But yes we both agree 90/10 would erode all nonresident’s draw odds.Again, you're assuming all outfitter tags are all non-resident. You don't know what the distribution really is because it doesn't show it. I know of a local Pharmacist (resident) that puts in with and uses an outfitter because it increases his odds of drawing and filling his tag. I know of another dude form Abq that does the same thing. Never mind the fact he has a 75' houseboat on a local lake - he's got the money, so...
You're going to take this personally, and that's okay. But NM really doesn't have to care that it isn't fair a non-resident's draw "odds" go down by favoring those that have to put up with NM's nonsense on a daily basis...
The number of residents using the outfitter pool is equivalent to the number of people who have a 75’ house boat. It’s an anomaly not a statistically significant amount. But yes we both agree 90/10 would erode all nonresident’s draw odds.
Outfitters are like a concierge service at a hotel. They provide aminities and assistants to those that want to pay to play. If people don't want to use it then they don't have to, it's a choice we all have the freedom to make. Again it's not a welfare program. There's no direct deposit going into an outfitters bank account from the state. It's just as much as a lottery draw for every outfitter competing against each other for business within that 10% allocation. It's certainly not a gimme to everyone who applies through an outfitter. Resident or non resident.By giving outfitters that 10%, it is taking opportunity away from other hunters (mostly residents) and providing extra $$ for outfitter and extra opportunity for those willing to give outfitters the $$.
The outfitters or guides that I’ve meet are hard working individuals and seem like great people. It would be good to have more people like that in NM. I’m just against government giving special interest groups “favors”.
I have applied in the guide draw in NM to increase my odds. I stopped doing it because I made the decision that I didn’t want to support the welfare system and it was hypocritical of me to take advantage of a system I disagreed with. Hiring a guide would actually be a good financial choice for me instead of taking time off work to scout and pack my own animals out. I get most of my satisfaction from hunting from putting in the time and effort, instead of pulling the trigger and collecting antlers. I guess I shouldn’t try to force my values on others.
Many of us are just asking for a level playing field for all nonresidents to be equal in the draw and all residents to be equal in the draw.
I’d just like to hunt NM once or twice in my life. So far, no dice. I’m 46. I do put in for good tags but it really wouldn’t change that much if I didn’t. NR, no outfitter odds pretty much suck. Is what it is.
Since your beef is with the outfitter “welfare” I think we all can agree it would be best to go to a 84/16 split with no separate outfitter pool. Would that make you happy?Show me the data, I can't find it.
Since your beef is with the outfitter “welfare” I think we all can agree it would be best to go to a 84/16 split with no separate outfitter pool. Would that make you happy?
What difference does that make to your answer as to what would make you happy? You have a problem with outfitter “welfare” right? This would eliminate it.Are you a resident or nonresident?
What difference does that make to your answer as to what would make you happy? You have a problem with outfitter “welfare” right? This would eliminate it.
I’m a resident pharmacist who owns a 75’ boat and really want to draw WAY GOOD tags every year.If your a NR, your opinion really doesn't matter.
The 90/10 eliminates the welfare as well...
Sorry, you haven't convinced me that giving outfitters 10% of the tags is not a form of government welfare. Call it whatever you want but the outfitter 10% reduces opportunities for many "poor" hunters every year so that the "rich" hunters can have better odds. If you think that is a good thing, then you are entitled to your opinion.Outfitters are like a concierge service at a hotel. They provide aminities and assistants to those that want to pay to play. If people don't want to use it then they don't have to, it's a choice we all have the freedom to make. Again it's not a welfare program. There's no direct deposit going into an outfitters bank account from the state. It's just as much as a lottery draw for every outfitter competing against each other for business within that 10% allocation. It's certainly not a gimme to everyone who applies through an outfitter. Resident or non resident.
I'm a NR, does my opinion matter? I have no problem with a 90/10 split in NM.If your a NR, your opinion really doesn't matter.
The 90/10 eliminates the welfare as well...
I'm a NR, does my opinion matter? I have no problem with a 90/10 split in NM.
It’s hard to figure out some people. You have just as much right to hunt National Forest as any resident. They take your tax dollars and then you have some wanting you to sit down and be quiet, your opinion matters as much as the next guys. When I was a kid my daddy used to talk about how hunting would be a rich man’s sport in this country one day. Well…Sorry, you haven't convinced me that giving outfitters 10% of the tags is not a form of government welfare. Call it whatever you want but the outfitter 10% reduces opportunities for many "poor" hunters every year so that the "rich" hunters can have better odds. If you think that is a good thing, then you are entitled to your opinion.
I'm a NR, does my opinion matter? I have no problem with a 90/10 split in NM.
I'm just messing with you but I really do think 90/10 is a fair for resident vs nonresident in western states. Even though most of my hunting the last several years has been as a nonresident, I think it is important to preserve resident hunting opportunities over nonresident hunting opportunities.
"rich man's sport" is really the issue I have with outfitter tags. I think animals should be earned by hard work and skill, instead of collecting antlers with $$. It is really sad to see hunting becoming more and more of a rich mans sport.It’s hard to figure out some people. You have just as much right to hunt National Forest as any resident. They take your tax dollars and then you have some wanting you to sit down and be quiet, your opinion matters as much as the next guys. When I was a kid my daddy used to talk about how hunting would be a rich man’s sport in this country one day. Well…
"rich man's sport" is really the issue I have with outfitter tags. I think animals should be earned by hard work and skill, instead of collecting antlers with $$. It is really sad to see hunting becoming more and more of a rich mans sport.
Dear God, bless this man….. I wish there were 1 Million others just like youI am a resident and have no problem with 84 16 split. I get confused why non residents get shafted except for the fact a lot of other western states are doing it. Nonresidents like to hunt just as much as me and everyone else.
I am a resident and have no problem with 84 16 split. I get confused why non residents get shafted except for the fact a lot of other western states are doing it. Nonresidents like to hunt just as much as me and everyone else.
You’re not a resident of those other States, your opinion doesn’t matter.If we're going to be generous, let's do 80/20.
As long as AZ, WY, UT, CO, MT, and ID do the same...
I’ll 100% vote for that, but I also apply in every one of those states.If we're going to be generous, let's do 80/20.
As long as AZ, WY, UT, CO, MT, and ID do the same...
There are still tags available for a number of units in NM. $6,750 landowner, rifle, bow, muzzy, entire unit you pick hunt date.Well 12 years in a row I’ve been trying to draw a quality New Mexico elk tag as a non resident without any success. But you know what, I praise the way New Mexico treats non residents in the draw. Just wish my home state of Colorado would do the same !!! And quit there over the counter BS !
You can change your WY elk choice after submitting it, after the deadline, and before the draw results are released??Just need to load the shotgun and get more apps out there. I got lucky and drew NM elk so going to change my Wyoming elk to max point to avoid drawing and push it another year. Drew a MT limited deer tag already and app season just got going!!! Unfortunately you have to do five or six states minimum or 9... to have consistent good draw tags for various species. It certainly takes up hunting funds. Sitting there on a beautiful day working overtime instead of turkey hunting as I type this of course. ??
I could get behind this!80% residents
10% non residents
10% people willing to pay 200% of the non resident license fee
I have been applying through an outfitter for years because I am willing to pay to improve my odds - we are 0-52 the past two years so my strategy sucks. I would rather pay that money to the NWGF for habitat improvements, law enforcement, etc.
Sort of like the special license fee in Wyoming.
Yes you can modify it up until about May 8th or somethingYou can change your WY elk choice after submitting it, after the deadline, and before the draw results are released??
Why not just go and shoot the animals without a tag, go to church, confess your sins, say 5 our fathers and hail Mary’s and move on with life? And still get into heaven!If we're going to be generous, let's do 80/20.
As long as AZ, WY, UT, CO, MT, and ID do the same...
Ammo shortage. Better to roofy them into hibernation like they did to get them all on the Arc.Why not just go and shoot the animals without a tag, go to church, confess your sins, say 5 our fathers and hail Mary’s and move on with life? And still get into heaven!
Let’s all ? for the ammo shortage to end!Ammo shortage. Better to roofy them into hibernation like they did to get them all on the Arc.
I hear ya !! ??Why not just go and shoot the animals without a tag, go to church, confess your sins, say 5 our fathers and hail Mary’s and move on with life? And still get into heaven!
Wish I had known that…Yes you can modify it up until about May 8th or something
So you want to tell a private land owner whom probably pays more in real estate taxes for the year then you do in 2-3 yrs ..what he can or can't do with his private property just because you can't access itMy personal solution for nonresidents would be to remove the "outfitter welfare" laws. (10% of the public tags and all the private tag in NM, wilderness law in Wyoming, etc) No guiding for fishing or hunting on any public lands would make me happy but that is never going to happen.
Wish I had known that…
I didn't say anything about limiting private property rights. Removing the "outfitter welfare 10%" in NM and "wilderness law" in Wyoming would not infringe on anyones private property. No guiding on public lands wouldn't infringe on anyones private property rights either. I actually see some positives from e plus in NM and other states landowner tags but landowner tags can also be abused.So you want to tell a private land owner whom probably pays more in real estate taxes for the year then you do in 2-3 yrs ..what he can or can't do with his private property just because you can't access it
Or they lease it or charge for access ,,I mean screw private property rights, if you can't hunt it then don't allow them tags to hunt their own property even though they pay taxes (probably more taxes ) until they allow you on their land because you think your entitled to the game on their land even though you don't pay their taxes.... ,yeah that will teach them
And they claim land owners are greedy might want to look in the mirror
I said nothing about limiting private property rights. Why don't you read my posts?F'n right on point ultimag ?
im 67 born in nm and have hunted here my whole life...im just a hunter that has applied and researched forever...ive drawn 6b elk and other tough draws...outfitter welfare...are you kidding? i drew a 16d early rifle hunt this year...my odds were BETTER without my outfitter who im using for my hunt....go to nmgf website and LOOK at the draw odds...and quit bitching about what you dont know about...rough country is right...ive hunted every where...nm is fairLove NM big game draw ! I didn’t draw anything except a Land Owner tag from a guy in SW New Mexico…sent him a deposit today. He’ll get his unit wide tags in June. Y’all complaining about outfitters would complain about something else if they did away with it. Angry when you don’t draw, happy, happy when you do.
im 67 born in nm and have hunted here my whole life...im just a hunter that has applied and researched forever...ive drawn 6b elk and other tough draws...outfitter welfare...are you kidding? i drew a 16d early rifle hunt this year...my odds were BETTER without my outfitter who im using for my hunt....go to nmgf website and LOOK at the draw odds...and quit bitching about what you dont know about...rough country is right...ive hunted every where...nm is fair
right on!! im a nm resident and i apply my ass off...i drew valle calderas and used a a guide and my wife too....we were EXTREMELY lucky...and i drew a 16d elk hunt this year and will be using a guide...welfare guiding? GIVE ME A BREAK...ive known a bunch of outfitters/guides they aint rich...if you want bull tags go to nm and buy you a 20000 acre ranch..and then figure out you will have to sell elk tags to pay for the damn thing cuz of wolves, drought, etc....wyoming just taught us about non res...got 19 moose points and now im screwedWho are you to decide what is “fair”? Your perception of fair is likely very different than another person’s perception of fair. Is it fair that az/wy/co/nv allows hunters to purchase a bonus point or preference point in return for better draw odds? Is it fair that wy allows hunter to pay a premium for a “special license” in return for better draw odds? Is it fair that in order to hunt wilderness in wy, a nonresident has to hire an outfitter or be accompanied by wy resident? Is it fair that Kentucky will allow you to purchase an unlimited number of $10 lottery tickets for their elk draw? Is it fair that western states have to give a certain % of tags to nonresidents? I could go on & on forever with at least another 20 examples of what you would consider “unfair” but the point is nothing in life is 100% fair because “ fairness” is a concept we all define differently
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