For all the bad management guys

hossblur said:
No. Argument is whether we cut our own throats, or let special interests do it

Difference is you try to sell magic pixy dust that if we enrich more outfitters and special orgs, magically everything is fixed. Cuz Denny killing AI deer sure did save the mule deer in this state, so of course we should double down

And, unlike you, I actually talk to dwr folks, they ain't exactly getting rich with all their greed.
Click to expand...
????

You're actually referring to your actions as cutting our own throats.

And then talk about enriching outfitters. What makes you think I am enriching outfitters and what's wrong with an outfitter getting rich.

Why do you "deserve" a deer tag more than somebody that can pay fair market value?
 
Tristate said:
????

You're actually referring to your actions as cutting our own throats.

And then talk about enriching outfitters. What makes you think I am enriching outfitters and what's wrong with an outfitter getting rich.

Why do you "deserve" a deer tag more than somebody that can pay fair market value?
Click to expand...

The wildlife in Utah is held in trust for the CITIZENS of Utah.

Like I said, you plagiarize Peay with your ideas.

No, and this one is your usual attempt at spin.

My actions, didn't put the corporate class in charge. In fact my actions have cost me financially because I opposed, VIGOROUSLY, corporate actors whom also are in the world I'm in. So not only are you wrong(as per usual), but not even close

You pay outfitters I don't. I don't enrich them.

I'm fine if they rich if they have skin in the game. Timber companies, oil, minerals, hell even grazers pay for the resource then sell it. Outfitters pay nothing for it(on public), then for some reason get to sit on the board protecting it.

Kinda like putting developers on the planning commission.
 
hossblur said:
The wildlife in Utah is held in trust for the CITIZENS of Utah.

Like I said, you plagiarize Peay with your ideas.

No, and this one is your usual attempt at spin.

My actions, didn't put the corporate class in charge. In fact my actions have cost me financially because I opposed, VIGOROUSLY, corporate actors whom also are in the world I'm in. So not only are you wrong(as per usual), but not even close

You pay outfitters I don't. I don't enrich them.

I'm fine if they rich if they have skin in the game. Timber companies, oil, minerals, hell even grazers pay for the resource then sell it. Outfitters pay nothing for it(on public), then for some reason get to sit on the board protecting it.

Kinda like putting developers on the planning commission.
Click to expand...
It's held in trust but it doesn't have to be.

An outfitter is a consultant. He doesn't have to have skin in the game because he isn't taking anything the client is and they have just as much in the game as you do. A deer tag. That's a fact.

I can go consult grazers and not have to put skin in the game. I can go consult oil companies and I don't have to pay to put skin in the game.

Your hate is illogical. You wanted a scapegoat and you picked one. And if someone is stupid they believe the crap you are saying.

But if they are smart they will see you spewing the same illogical hate for decades has done nothing for conservation. NOTHING.
 
...It's held in trust but it doesn't have to be.-Tristate

Mr. Peay believes that our current constitutional construct established under the 10th Amendment where the individual states have control and ownership of wildlife and hold it in the Public Trust is Socialism. -The Don

Outfitters are consultants? Might need to check out how outfitting in Utah goes. Especially on CWMU.

When someone tells us they will save the mule deer and turn Utah into the Serengeti of the West, and 30 years later dudes are screaming about lack of deer and shutting the state down for years, I don't need a scapegoat, I just publish his words. I publish their words.

"It could be worse without us", ain't conservation.

But hey, Utah welcomes your money, keep sending it. Wade too, his lawyer bills are getting high.
 
Tri, some guys ask me why I bother with you. It's obvious your at best I'll informed.

But, I always remind them that without you, the corruption at the head of the DWR wouldn't have been exposed.

Without you, guys wouldn't watch WLH like they do, resulting in now numerous citations.

Without you poaching and the weak sentences wouldn't get made aware of, and folks push for stronger.


See oh great wizard, the longer you go, the more you shine a mirror on issues and wake dudes up.

I actually get irritated so many dudes block you, because those dudes are harder to reach, than the ones who read your "information" and becomes aware just how dumb some points are.

You've always been a real asset to the community of sportsmen here in MM.

So please, keep on keeping in, there are new members all the time that need to be shown what true foolishness looks like.
 
You're still blaming SFW and outfitters. I told you years ago if that's the best you can do to save your deer then deer would suffer and they have.

You've already admitted you just want to fight for deer tags and you don't care if it suits your own throat.

Do you really think people are going to thank you for your self centered motives?
 
hossblur said:
When you look at the WB, how many are from the commercial side? Outfitters, guides, orgs.

If you believe there is a management issue, maybe start with those that set policy?

How many tags do you and your family have?
Click to expand...
Well lets see? The two new ones both have affiliations with ranching and guide service. You'll have to look at the others on the board. I know there are several others.

I am the only one in the family with a permit. That is out of four kids and 10 grandsons. Did they all put in for the draw. i doubt it. So what?
 
Vanilla said:
Chicken :poop: !

If you’re scared, just say so.
Click to expand...
Somebody doesn't like the truth.

I think something else is coming through the crystal ball!

karsten-torebjer-crystal-ball.gif
 
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cannonball said:
Well lets see? The two new ones both have affiliations with ranching and guide service. You'll have to look at the others on the board. I know there are several others.

I am the only one in the family with a permit. That is out of four kids and 10 grandsons. Did they all put in for the draw. i doubt it. So what?
Click to expand...

Just interesting to see the amount of guys who complain about cutting tags, and shut downs to that still draw tags. If it sucks so bad, why do that.
 
Tristate said:
You're still blaming SFW and outfitters. I told you years ago if that's the best you can do to save your deer then deer would suffer and they have.

You've already admitted you just want to fight for deer tags and you don't care if it suits your own throat.

Do you really think people are going to thank you for your self centered motives?
Click to expand...

Your reading comprehension is getting worse.

Yes, because it's not self centered for any of the other 80,000 tag holders to draw tags, nor the 10's of thousands who didn't draw. Those guys all do it for non selfish reasons ?

And yes, when the corporate class, lead by their special interest group, has dominated the WB for decades, and things really haven't changed, they get the blame. That's how it works.

If you screw up a mount, do you blame your kids? Secretary? CPA?

Do you really think people will thank you for your decade plus of exemplifiying bad policy and poor thought?
 
Vanilla said:
Everyone saw it tri.

I gave you a chance to “tell us so” and you pussed out. I told you so.

Bessy, mark that one down!
Click to expand...
Just because you didn't like the answer doesn't mean I wasn't right. Don't be all butt hurt about it.
 
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hossblur said:
Your reading comprehension is getting worse.

Yes, because it's not self centered for any of the other 80,000 tag holders to draw tags, nor the 10's of thousands who didn't draw. Those guys all do it for non selfish reasons ?

And yes, when the corporate class, lead by their special interest group, has dominated the WB for decades, and things really haven't changed, they get the blame. That's how it works.

If you screw up a mount, do you blame your kids? Secretary? CPA?

Do you really think people will thank you for your decade plus of exemplifiying bad policy and poor thought?
Click to expand...
No my reading comprehension is pretty good. You are the one that said you are willing to cut your own throat to get deer tags.
 
hossblur said:
No. Argument is whether we cut our own throats, or let special interests do it



There's my line, copy and pasted
Click to expand...
Yeah you said you are arguing to cut your own throat for a deer tag.

Are you saying you quit and you will go ahead and let special interests cut your throat for a deer tag?
 
Again, LEARN TO READ.

I said the argument was whether WE cut our own throats.

WE

We, NOT I.

We as in MORE THAN ONE INDIVIDUAL.

It's a 2 letter word, do you struggle that badly?
 
hossblur said:
Again, LEARN TO READ.

I said the argument was whether WE cut our own throats.

WE

We, NOT I.

We as in MORE THAN ONE INDIVIDUAL.

It's a 2 letter word, do you struggle that badly?
Click to expand...
We is you because I sure as hell ain't part of that we but you are.

You need to learn English.

But hey you are willing to cut your own throat for a deer tag so I don't expect a lot.
 
Vanilla said:
I told you that you wouldn’t dare go on the record, P&B.

Some people have a spine, some are jelly fish. You’ll get the attention you deserve from here on out.
Click to expand...
You sound so bitter that I told you so and then accurately answered your loaded question.

I really must be some kind of prophet.
 
hossblur said:

Amazing how every state is just managed terribly. You'd think one would break free of this bad management? Or perhaps, it's not a conspiracy?
Click to expand...
Can't believe people still have the energy to fight these things on this website. I've aged a couple of decades and the same people are still fighting about cutting buck tags, cutting doe tags, cutting dates, more smaller units, coyote bounties, cougar bounties, habitat projects and funding, on and on and on. None of you have this figured out. I promise. Somebody has tried your idea and it didn't work.

I love the buck to doe ratio analysis now. I see mature bucks during the hunt since that went into affect. Now its just a matter of drawing a tag.

The only thing that is going to increase the herd is rain and mild winters. It's out of our hands. You aren't going to outsmart that one as much as you'd like to blame an unfavorable outcome on somebody else.
 
johnnyutah said:
Can't believe people still have the energy to fight these things on this website. I've aged a couple of decades and the same people are still fighting about cutting buck tags, cutting doe tags, cutting dates, more smaller units, coyote bounties, cougar bounties, habitat projects and funding, on and on and on. None of you have this figured out. I promise. Somebody has tried your idea and it didn't work.

I love the buck to doe ratio analysis now. I see mature bucks during the hunt since that went into affect. Now its just a matter of drawing a tag.

The only thing that is going to increase the herd is rain and mild winters. It's out of our hands. You aren't going to outsmart that one as much as you'd like to blame an unfavorable outcome on somebody else.
Click to expand...
Seriously…… and respectfully. Aren’t you grateful that the guys that manage livestock, wheat, rice, lettuce, tomatoes and potatoes, that don’t leave it up to the weather to grow the food the country depends on?

There was a time when they didn’t…….. we know that don’t we.

At one time Stone Age people “did not” burn last years grass off in the spring. But they learned……… they used human intelligence to figure it out, that burning the old grass causes the new grass to grow back, fresh and nutritious, which draw the wildlife to those burn areas for the nutrients, growing healthy stronger calves and cows, and mitigating against leaving it to the weather alone. Also, made they easier to kill and more reliably available in their territory.

The early cattle ranchers in the west open ranged their cattle, summer and winter, until the 1886-1887 when 25% of the cattle froze to death. That caused those cattle managers to change their management methods. They stopped leaving it up to the weather and move cattle off the open range. They put up hay, to make sure they had feed and shelter…….. in case the weather turned on them again.

We could go on for volumes about humans learning how to mitigate and survive weather….. in the production of animals and plants as well.

What in he!! Is wrong with people who believe in leaving wildlife up to weather and nature to ensure their abundance?

It’s not 3,000 BC in North America. Figure it out and save our wildlife. If Stone Age people can do it, shouldn’t we at least try! If we can’t grow mule deer how can we harness outer space or our oceans for long term seafood products?
 
hossblur said:
Just interesting to see the amount of guys who complain about cutting tags, and shut downs to that still draw tags. If it sucks so bad, why do that.
Click to expand...
Well Mr. hossblur, Here are your reasons:

1. I am getting old. Very old.
2. I am mentoring my Grandson, with this being his last year of eligibility.
3. I am taking my English Sporting 62 caliber smoothbore 50 yard'er/20 ga. shotgun for a chance at a large deer(which rarely exist on this unit) or maybe even a grouse will show up.
4. This one should be number 1. Just nice to get to get out in the mountains.
5. You young bucks, if I dare say that, think everything will correct itself, or------- the government will take care of it without any effort on your part. This has been going on for 30 year and gets worse each year.
Well Mr. hossblur, Enjoy. Our state of Utah is California in 10 years. Soon we will not even be able to shoot predators. As one Cali's told me several years back when I ask why he moved to Utah. His response was that the Cali's ruined California and now they are up here to ruin Utah. Well I guess that goes for people from every state who sleeps thru though times. Deer numbers are not irreversible, but it takes efforts and guts. This is a terrible football team and without a change in leadership we will never make it to the playoffs. Player efforts matter also.
 
elkassassin said:
Buck To Doe ratio's Huh?

The Very F'N Worst Type Of BS Management Anybody Ever Came Up With!
Click to expand...
Okay I am listening elkassassin,
How would you determine the deer herd health?
And don't give me the answer by population count. That is what the DWR was doing to determine the general health of the deer herd back in the 1980's and 1990's, when the deer herd really tanked and crashed.
 
notdonhunting said:
Okay I am listening elkassassin,
How would you determine the deer herd health?
And don't give me the answer by population count. That is what the DWR was doing to determine the general health of the deer herd back in the 1980's and 1990's, when the deer herd really tanked and crashed.
Click to expand...
I don’t doubt your best intentions notdon, and you are only half correct. In the first half of the 1980s yes, they were not concerned in the least with buck doe ratios. In 1985 that came to a screeching, screaming, cursing, catastrophic halt.

Sportsmen forced the DWR in the 80s to stop ignoring buck doe ratios because the female population was from 95% to as much as 98% on most units. That, according to all wildlife biologists, accept Utah’s DWR biologists (Colorado, Montana, Nevada, Wyoming etc.) was a dangerously low and unhealthy herd. I called and spoke to them myself as well as whitetail biologist/scientists in Mississippi, Texas, Alabama at the whitetail research Universities in those three States. I called them because I wanted to know the truth about buck doe ratios…… as it related to mule deer health and long term herd maintenance.

After every single biologist/scientist I spoke to contradicted the Utah DWR’s position, myself and other sportsmen, across the State, hammered the DWR on their buck doe ratios. That was what caused the push that was made for antler restrictions in 1884.

That movement throughly pissed the DWR off and they went nuts, killing thousand upon thousand of antlerless deer as a response to our request for a 15 buck per hundred ratio, State wide. (the DWR took the opportunity to use the winter of 1993 to blame for the loss of does and fawn but in truth, in a large part of Utah, huge numbers of mule deer were already gone, due to DWR antlerless hunts, five year prior to the winter of 1993.

This is not a historical rewrite, research the minutes of the public meetings and the DWR’s records regarding mule deer buck/doe ratios and antlerless tag sales.

That is when and how buck/doe ratios became the predominate management tool of the Utah DWR. It was a hostile response and a successful “shove it up your a$$”, to Utah sport hunters.

It’s not 1984 anymore, and what was necessary in 1984 is no longer what is necessary now. That’s elkassassin’s gripe…… it’s absolutely legitimate and I couldn’t agree with him more if tried. Under current conditions it’s a horrible management strategy and it has been for over 25 years.

With mule deer herd populations being as low as they are, for what ever reason, they are low, and the focus must go back to population numbers. There is no need to lurch back, in a fit anger and revenge, to buck/doe ratios of 2 to 4 per hundred does but the focus needs turn to growing more deer, regardless of the buck/doe ratio.

Is the herd healthy now……. Yes it is, but it’s a tiny number of healthy deer. It’s not necessary to have small population to keep it healthy. With proper management a mule deer herd, on our current public lands can go from 5,000 on a unit back up to 20,000 and still maintain its health. Wyoming and Colorado did it for decades. Whitetail States, that were as depleted of whitetails fifty years ago, as we are mule deer today have regrown their herds by the tens of thousands.

It is matter of wise and fluid management and commitment of the public to force these bureaucracies to do the job we need and want them to do.

If sportsmen want to stay the current course and let mule deer on public land continue to decline…….. that’s what they are doing and will continue to do. It’s up to hunters to take control of their resource or not. Buck doe ratios is not what is necessary at this time and place.
 
cannonball said:
Well Mr. hossblur, Here are your reasons:

1. I am getting old. Very old.
2. I am mentoring my Grandson, with this being his last year of eligibility.
3. I am taking my English Sporting 62 caliber smoothbore 50 yard'er/20 ga. shotgun for a chance at a large deer(which rarely exist on this unit) or maybe even a grouse will show up.
4. This one should be number 1. Just nice to get to get out in the mountains.
5. You young bucks, if I dare say that, think everything will correct itself, or------- the government will take care of it without any effort on your part. This has been going on for 30 year and gets worse each year.
Well Mr. hossblur, Enjoy. Our state of Utah is California in 10 years. Soon we will not even be able to shoot predators. As one Cali's told me several years back when I ask why he moved to Utah. His response was that the Cali's ruined California and now they are up here to ruin Utah. Well I guess that goes for people from every state who sleeps thru though times. Deer numbers are not irreversible, but it takes efforts and guts. This is a terrible football team and without a change in leadership we will never make it to the playoffs. Player efforts matter also.
Click to expand...


So, because your an older guy you don't want to cut tags and miss out hunting with your grandson, but it's great if we cut tags and other guys do?

Sorry man, but if your not willing to sit home with your grandson and watch golf, then don't expect others to do so.

How exactly do I think the gov will take care of it? Guys calling for cuts, need the gov to do it for them. You could just not shoot a deer, or tear up the tag, but you can't do either if the gov doesn't mandate it?

Utah's explosion in population has only been contributed by Cali since COVID. The centurys of leading the nation in kids per household is what did it.

And yeah, deer numbers are fairly irreversible, unless you plan on telling that grandson to move out of state, he will drive on roads, and live in a house, both of which are 20x more responsible for deer losses than any hunter.
 
elkfromabove said:
And we grow those populations by doing what?
Click to expand...

You will never get that answer.

That's the rub.

Because we keep talking about 30, 40,50 years ago.

Lumpy just said it. Wyoming and Colorado DID it. So what happened? Did they forget how to do it? Amnesia set in? Their declines mirror ours.

Wyoming suddenly get overgrown with Californians?

What happened here. I-15 cut the mtns off from the desert. A city from Tremonton to Nephi. And, alfalfa replaced sage brush.

None of that is getting reversed.

Some can be adjusted, especially deer crossings, 10 ft fences.

The biologists that Lumpy and all are so pissed at, are long retired and dying. There are how many $fw and outfitters on the WB, are we supposed to believe they are part of the conspiracy to drive hunting off the cliff?

WHAT EXACTLY are we going to do to quadruple deer populations? EXACTLY. Not killing any bucks, doesn't get you there.
 
elkfromabove said:
And we grow those populations by doing what?
Click to expand...
We stop you and I and everyone else from killing another deer of any kind, amongst 50 other things……. until the population nears carrying capacity. Do it on limited units at a time or the entire State if you can fund the other 50 things as the same time.

We’ll give you 20 a day limits on pheasants with an unlimited position limit. In as much as people just want to hunt, regardless if there are is anything to kill or not, go pheasant hunt to your hearts content.

Your snarky question reminds of the arrogant biologist that told me mule deer are like flies……… we can’t kill’em all!
 
2lumpy said:
We stop you and I and everyone else from killing another deer of any kind, amongst 50 other things……. until the population nears carrying capacity. Do it on limited units at a time or the entire State if you can fund the other 50 things as the same time.

We’ll give you 20 a day limits on pheasants with an unlimited position limit. In as much as people just want to hunt, regardless if there are is anything to kill or not, go pheasant hunt to your hearts content.

Your snarky question reminds of the arrogant biologist that told me mule deer are like flies……… we can’t kill’em all!
Click to expand...


That 1 buck you don't shoot=1 buck next year.

You ain't going from 5,000 to 20,000 from not hunting.


"50 other things".


We get to this spot every damn time. Then Bess will jump in with

Ban houses, tear up freeways, outlaw Polaris, yada, yada, yada.

Every mule deer state is seeing declines.

Are they all doing so just to spite Lumpy and Bess?
 
Lumpy, and Bess, and the rest.

Hunting in Utah is an afterthought both politically and economically.

It wasn't always. We became that way, because we allowed the noisiest amongst us to cut our clout, money, influence by 2/3 based on "the golden age".

So while we were busy making ourselves an afterthought, other industries stepped into the void.

Go ask Manti if they will support banning offroad so we can grow deer.

Go ask the Ogden valley if we can keep the skiers off the roads, so we don't lose deer.

Go ask St George if we can divert water from the golf courses to grow more deer.

Ain't happening.


We have got to duct tape anyone who mentions 30 years ago........

Dudes literally screaming and crying over a damn scope on a muzzleloader, but we are going to do "50 other things"?

And, we are going to do it, by bankrupting the funding source.

NO HUNTING means NO MONEY. From licenses, and every Pittman Robertson purchase for hunting.

It's beyond childish to think real world reality of COST doesn't apply.

What we gonna do, shut down hunting, but auction off 100 AI tags to cover the losses?
 
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hossblur,

If a person wanted to bite the bullet and didn't have to deal with politics they could turn the deer hunt tomorrow. Trouble is everyone is like you and doesn't want to sacrifice. By the way what made you think I want to cut tags?

First thing I would open hunting for bear like the cougars. Implement a large bounty on coyotes By the way this is in Utah. Next would be archery hunt for one week, one week for ML's and 10 days for any weapon. No hunts past November 1st. including elk. and reduce the elk numbers. Laugh if you like., but most predation does hunts are because the herds are in the valleys and towns. Why are they there? I don't even need to answer that, it is too obvious.
 
cannonball said:
hossblur,

If a person wanted to bite the bullet and didn't have to deal with politics they could turn the deer hunt tomorrow. Trouble is everyone is like you and doesn't want to sacrifice. By the way what made you think I want to cut tags?

First thing I would open hunting for bear like the cougars. Implement a large bounty on coyotes By the way this is in Utah. Next would be archery hunt for one week, one week for ML's and 10 days for any weapon. No hunts past November 1st. including elk. and reduce the elk numbers. Laugh if you like., but most predation does hunts are because the herds are in the valleys and towns. Why are they there? I don't even need to answer that, it is too obvious.
Click to expand...

So you'd take the lowest odds hunt and cut it down less than the rifle hunt?

You'd screw up the species that is thriving.

And, you'd talk about sacrifice without making one yourself?

I agree with does, but then I don't own alfalfa fields so it's easy for me to say.
 
hossblur said:
So you'd take the lowest odds hunt and cut it down less than the rifle hunt?

You'd screw up the species that is thriving.

And, you'd talk about sacrifice without making one yourself?

I agree with does, but then I don't own alfalfa fields so it's easy for me to say.
Click to expand...
hossblur,

You miss the whole point. The long hunting seasons are driving the deer to the valley. To show my age again, back in the good old days the deer would stay high until the second week of the rifle hunt. The biggest share of them stayed in the foothills not the fields and towns. They do learn. You probably will not agree with this, but elk are a large factor of the declining deer herds. Do I want to see them gone. NO, but the late hunts drive the deer down lower. Plus they stress the deer as it get colder. A DWR warden told me when the towns and farmers complain enough, the does are going to get shot. I cannot make it clearer than that. This buck to doe ratio is only good to a point and puts up a smoke screen for what really needs to be done. We need to save the does.
 
2lumpy said:
I don’t doubt your best intentions notdon, and you are only half correct. In the first half of the 1980s yes, they were not concerned in the least with buck doe ratios. In 1985 that came to a screeching, screaming, cursing, catastrophic halt.

Sportsmen forced the DWR in the 80s to stop ignoring buck doe ratios because the female population was from 95% to as much as 98% on most units. That, according to all wildlife biologists, accept Utah’s DWR biologists (Colorado, Montana, Nevada, Wyoming etc.) was a dangerously low and unhealthy herd. I called and spoke to them myself as well as whitetail biologist/scientists in Mississippi, Texas, Alabama at the whitetail research Universities in those three States. I called them because I wanted to know the truth about buck doe ratios…… as it related to mule deer health and long term herd maintenance.

After every single biologist/scientist I spoke to contradicted the Utah DWR’s position, myself and other sportsmen, across the State, hammered the DWR on their buck doe ratios. That was what caused the push that was made for antler restrictions in 1884.

That movement throughly pissed the DWR off and they went nuts, killing thousand upon thousand of antlerless deer as a response to our request for a 15 buck per hundred ratio, State wide. (the DWR took the opportunity to use the winter of 1993 to blame for the loss of does and fawn but in truth, in a large part of Utah, huge numbers of mule deer were already gone, due to DWR antlerless hunts, five year prior to the winter of 1993.

This is not a historical rewrite, research the minutes of the public meetings and the DWR’s records regarding mule deer buck/doe ratios and antlerless tag sales.

That is when and how buck/doe ratios became the predominate management tool of the Utah DWR. It was a hostile response and a successful “shove it up your a$$”, to Utah sport hunters.

It’s not 1984 anymore, and what was necessary in 1984 is no longer what is necessary now. That’s elkassassin’s gripe…… it’s absolutely legitimate and I couldn’t agree with him more if tried. Under current conditions it’s a horrible management strategy and it has been for over 25 years.

With mule deer herd populations being as low as they are, for what ever reason, they are low, and the focus must go back to population numbers. There is no need to lurch back, in a fit anger and revenge, to buck/doe ratios of 2 to 4 per hundred does but the focus needs turn to growing more deer, regardless of the buck/doe ratio.

Is the herd healthy now……. Yes it is, but it’s a tiny number of healthy deer. It’s not necessary to have small population to keep it healthy. With proper management a mule deer herd, on our current public lands can go from 5,000 on a unit back up to 20,000 and still maintain its health. Wyoming and Colorado did it for decades. Whitetail States, that were as depleted of whitetails fifty years ago, as we are mule deer today have regrown their herds by the tens of thousands.

It is matter of wise and fluid management and commitment of the public to force these bureaucracies to do the job we need and want them to do.

If sportsmen want to stay the current course and let mule deer on public land continue to decline…….. that’s what they are doing and will continue to do. It’s up to hunters to take control of their resource or not. Buck doe ratios is not what is necessary at this time and place.
Click to expand...

Believe me 2lumpy I understand what you are saying, the DWR messed up in the 80's. I was thinking it was the early 90's that they changed to buck to die ratio.
I don't have the answers that will get the deer herd back on track, maybe elkassassin is right and we all need to go back and wear flannel shirts and blue jeans.
But I know one thing forsure THE DWR is always going to take the blame, and maybe just maybe it is not all their fault.
We can argue all day about cutting tags or not cutting tags and we can argue all day about the Conservation organizations and how they are stilling the pepoles wildlife, and we can argue all day if it is the weather's fault
Muley deer have never survived in great numbers but for a short time frame of the 50's, 60's and 70's.
But in the end it might just be the way mother nature intended it to be.
 
Stilling?

pepoles?

forsure?

HINT notdon:

There's More Than Just Mother Nature To Blame!


notdonhunting said:
Believe me 2lumpy I understand what you are saying, the DWR messed up in the 80's. I was thinking it was the early 90's that they changed to buck to die ratio.
I don't have the answers that will get the deer herd back on track, maybe elkassassin is right and we all need to go back and wear flannel shirts and blue jeans.
But I know one thing forsure THE DWR is always going to take the blame, and maybe just maybe it is not all their fault.
We can argue all day about cutting tags or not cutting tags and we can argue all day about the Conservation organizations and how they are stilling the pepoles wildlife, and we can argue all day if it is the weather's fault
Muley deer have never survived in great numbers but for a short time frame of the 50's, 60's and 70's.
But in the end it might just be the way mother nature intended it to be.
Click to expand...
 
Gyg h
notdonhunting said:
Believe me 2lumpy I understand what you are saying, the DWR messed up in the 80's. I was thinking it was the early 90's that they changed to buck to die ratio.
I don't have the answers that will get the deer herd back on track, maybe elkassassin is right and we all need to go back and wear flannel shirts and blue jeans.
But I know one thing forsure THE DWR is always going to take the blame, and maybe just maybe it is not all their fault.
We can argue all day about cutting tags or not cutting tags and we can argue all day about the Conservation organizations and how they are stilling the pepoles wildlife, and we can argue all day if it is the weather's fault
Muley deer have never survived in great numbers but for a short time frame of the 50's, 60's and 70's.
But in the end it might just be the way mother nature intended it to be.
Click to expand...
That’s the point notdon, as humans we aren’t limited to nature. We have the intelligence to mitigate nature and work around natural phenomenon. We find solutions to problems. Humans have the ability to think and work through scenarios until they find solutions to immense challenges.

It’s been said many times over the last 50 years, a good livestock operator can take over any unit in Utah, give him total control over the wildlife on the entire unit, offer him a million dollar personal bonus and the current yearly budget for the unit and he would triple the population in less than 10 years. It priorities not nature that are keeping mule deer in decline.

How would he do it……. I have no idea, I’d wage 10 livestock operators would do it ten different ways. I don’t care how they do it or how the DWR does it. Just want to see them do it. It’s their job. Not yours and not mine. If they don’t want to or they can’t, get out of the business and let someone else do it.

At what expense? At what cost to hunting or opportunity? I don’t care. People can hunt pheasants……. if that’s what it takes.

If a farmer leaves it up to nature, he’s an idiot. Idiots don’t farm long. We’ll starve to death, leaving management of any shape or kind to nature.

You know it’s true.
 
Yall should be listening to 2Lumpy.

There is a whole lot more to managing a heard than just harvest management.
 
Tristate said:
They could set up an online auction very easily now. 20 years ago it might not have been possible. As for non res tags not finding a ceiling, that's what I am hoping for. As for families being priced out of hunting, it's too late to worry about that. The resource has to be saved now. I told people this was going to happen and they were screwing our descendants out of hunting. Now it's a reality.

No I do not believe predators is the single biggest problem. But they are a real problem and a quick way to stabilize populations in a growth direction. Laziness keeps the agencies from stopping them and money is the acceptable excuse.
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Yes… auction the tags. THAT’S the answer! Make it where only the rich can hunt! That will DEFINITELY save the herds….. dumbest thing I’ve heard. Maybe they could stop putting highways straight through corridors. Or stop expanding towns and taking habitat. Areas that used to be prime habitat are now ski resorts and golf courses. Maybe actually spend the money us hunters out in for conservation into conservation….. not into their pockets and groups pockets. Auctioning tags is definitely not the answer, all that will do is create more greed.
 
mossback50cal said:
Yes… auction the tags. THAT’S the answer! Make it where only the rich can hunt! That will DEFINITELY save the herds….. dumbest thing I’ve heard. Maybe they could stop putting highways straight through corridors. Or stop expanding towns and taking habitat. Areas that used to be prime habitat are now ski resorts and golf courses. Maybe actually spend the money us hunters out in for conservation into conservation….. not into their pockets and groups pockets. Auctioning tags is definitely not the answer, all that will do is create more greed.
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People having to spend more money to enjoy the hobbies they want creates greed??????

You really don't understand human nature and the laws of supply and demand.
 
Tristate said:
People having to spend more money to enjoy the hobbies they want creates greed??????

You really don't understand human nature and the laws of supply and demand.
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I understand both. But when it prices out 90% of the population, I’m not for it. If you think auctioning would make our government officials spend more towards wildlife, you are part of the problem. All they would do is find a way to funnel it into their pockets. All of these millions of dollars states get for tags, I would go out on a limb and say less than 10% is actually used for management. If we auctioned, and turned that into hundreds of millions, maybe billions, it would be even worse. They wouldn’t spend another dime on management more than they are now.
 
mossback50cal said:
I understand both. But when it prices out 90% of the population, I’m not for it. If you think auctioning would make our government officials spend more towards wildlife, you are part of the problem. All they would do is find a way to funnel it into their pockets. All of these millions of dollars states get for tags, I would go out on a limb and say less than 10% is actually used for management. If we auctioned, and turned that into hundreds of millions, maybe billions, it would be even worse. They wouldn’t spend another dime on management more than they are now.
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So you are only worried about what you can get for you now and not what more people can get later.

I'm pretty sure that makes you the greedy one here.
 
cannonball said:
hossblur,

You miss the whole point. The long hunting seasons are driving the deer to the valley. To show my age again, back in the good old days the deer would stay high until the second week of the rifle hunt. The biggest share of them stayed in the foothills not the fields and towns. They do learn. You probably will not agree with this, but elk are a large factor of the declining deer herds. Do I want to see them gone. NO, but the late hunts drive the deer down lower. Plus they stress the deer as it get colder. A DWR warden told me when the towns and farmers complain enough, the does are going to get shot. I cannot make it clearer than that. This buck to doe ratio is only good to a point and puts up a smoke screen for what really needs to be done. We need to save the does.
Click to expand...


I agree with everything you said. But the archery hunt is in Aug, so it doesn't contribute.

Look,I want you to be hunting with the grandkids, every year.

I'll be all for closing units, or tags cuts AFTER,CWMU, LE, AUCTION TAGS, ETC do it.


My concern is the real danger.

There is a well funded group trying to end hunting by getting control of DWR/WB.

The weaker we make ourselves, the easier their job is.

But, the golden age, was an accident. It wasn't managed. So the continual talk of 50 years ago is meaningless
 
I'm king

CWMU is gone. LE is gone.

We have 80,000 deer hunters concentrated on too small an area so that we can keep the industry happy.

No CWMU, ends GUARANTEE tags. Landowners can do trespass fees for sure. But the prices will get cheaper as the deep pockets don't have tags so competition for tag holders will push prices down.

LE is gone. As are the guides on public.

Deer hunting(elk too) goes back to hunting, not point schemes.

Long archery seasons. Muzzy rules like Idaho. Rifle a 5 day season.


10 ft fences statewide on 15, 40, 89, 84, 6.

Paid for 100% by auction tags. Once fence is up, then wildlife crossings.

If MDF/sfw don't like it, they may get out of suction buisness.

I'm with you. Zero hunts after ruts, elk and deer
 
2lumpy said:
Seriously…… and respectfully. Aren’t you grateful that the guys that manage livestock, wheat, rice, lettuce, tomatoes and potatoes, that don’t leave it up to the weather to grow the food the country depends on?

There was a time when they didn’t…….. we know that don’t we.

At one time Stone Age people “did not” burn last years grass off in the spring. But they learned……… they used human intelligence to figure it out, that burning the old grass causes the new grass to grow back, fresh and nutritious, which draw the wildlife to those burn areas for the nutrients, growing healthy stronger calves and cows, and mitigating against leaving it to the weather alone. Also, made they easier to kill and more reliably available in their territory.

The early cattle ranchers in the west open ranged their cattle, summer and winter, until the 1886-1887 when 25% of the cattle froze to death. That caused those cattle managers to change their management methods. They stopped leaving it up to the weather and move cattle off the open range. They put up hay, to make sure they had feed and shelter…….. in case the weather turned on them again.

We could go on for volumes about humans learning how to mitigate and survive weather….. in the production of animals and plants as well.

What in he!! Is wrong with people who believe in leaving wildlife up to weather and nature to ensure their abundance?

It’s not 3,000 BC in North America. Figure it out and save our wildlife. If Stone Age people can do it, shouldn’t we at least try! If we can’t grow mule deer how can we harness outer space or our oceans for long term seafood products?
Click to expand...
All logical points, but your ideas have been tried. SFW made sure of that. It didn't work. Come up with some new ideas, just don't keep rattling off 15 years after it clearly didn't work.
 
elkassassin said:
Buck To Doe ratio's Huh?

The Very F'N Worst Type Of BS Management Anybody Ever Came Up With!
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It's way better than before when the b/d ratio was 5/100 or less. It's way more reasonable than just cutting virtually all tags except a few to go and target the very best genetics. Your ideas have been tried and did not work.
 
hossblur said:
I'm king

CWMU is gone. LE is gone.

We have 80,000 deer hunters concentrated on too small an area so that we can keep the industry happy.

No CWMU, ends GUARANTEE tags. Landowners can do trespass fees for sure. But the prices will get cheaper as the deep pockets don't have tags so competition for tag holders will push prices down.

LE is gone. As are the guides on public.

Deer hunting(elk too) goes back to hunting, not point schemes.

Long archery seasons. Muzzy rules like Idaho. Rifle a 5 day season.


10 ft fences statewide on 15, 40, 89, 84, 6.

Paid for 100% by auction tags. Once fence is up, then wildlife crossings.

If MDF/sfw don't like it, they may get out of suction buisness.

I'm with you. Zero hunts after ruts, elk and deer
Click to expand...
Double Amen to ‘muzzy rules like Idaho’!
 
Tristate said:
So you are only worried about what you can get for you now and not what more people can get later.

I'm pretty sure that makes you the greedy one here.
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First off, if it went to Auction I could afford tags. Second off, that IS NOT what I said at all. If you had ANY reading comprehension, you would easily understand what I’m saying. The states, almost every one of them, are mismanaging the money. Instead of putting it back into wildlife, like it is supposed to go, they funnel it to their projects and line their pockets. Just like every single government agency. I agree things have to change. But going to auction and making it only a sport where only people with more money can enjoy it is not the way. You keep saying “I’ve been saying for ten years”, but I look back and all of your posts are ignorant. You think the answer is throwing money at it, typical egotistical, narcissistic behavior. No amount of money is going to fix it when it isn’t being used like it’s supposed to. It is a clear case of mismanagement, easily seen.

Also, like many people have said, technology is a huge issue. Success rates have sky rocketed on archery and muzzleloader hunts. Makes it a lot easier with long range muzzleloader, and archery equipment that is able to shoot 100 yards and beyond. I was against New Mexico going scoreless for muzzy until I did some research. Most hunts doubled their success rate in the past twenty years. Took the hunting out of it and made out shooting. Same goes for rifles. Used to have to close the distance, now can shoot them from two canyons away.
 
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johnnyutah said:
All logical points, but your ideas have been tried. SFW made sure of that. It didn't work. Come up with some new ideas, just don't keep rattling off 15 years after it clearly didn't work.
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You know, I can’t actually argue with that but think carefully who was actually the, boots on the ground, during the time those idea didn’t work. It’s wasn’t the sportsmen/hunters and the bureaucrats long knives were definitely active and successful.

However, your right, we damn sure failed, that is an absolute fact.

Our biggest failure was allowing the bureaucrats to circumvent anything and everything. We wasted our time and money. I wish to he!! we had left it completely up to them and they could own this cluster by themselves.

Having conceded that to you, it’s your turn, we are leaving you a he!! of a mess……. that was never our intent but be that as it may, it’s your turn to deal with it for the next few generations.
 
elkassassin said:
And You Are Full Of BULLSSHIT As Well If You Think The Only F'N Issue We Have Is Mother Nature!

GEEZUS!
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I never said mother nature was the only issue.
And 2lumpy is right it has been done before.
if managed to bring the deer herds back to anything even close to the "good old days".
We would need to create hundreds of thousands of pristine habitat "over grazing from cattle", kill 99 percent of all predators "including your precious lions", and have a third World War
all able bodies gone to war and the rest of the nation working to support the war effort no time for hunting.
How long will the "good old days" last this time 10 years, 20 years, 30. One thing I would bet you my life savings on is it would not last any longer than the last time.
But then again we could just try HELL FN RIGHT .
 
notdonhunting said:
I never said mother nature was the only issue.
And 2lumpy is right it has been done before.
if managed to bring the deer herds back to anything even close to the "good old days".
We would need to create hundreds of thousands of pristine habitat "over grazing from cattle", kill 99 percent of all predators "including your precious lions", and have a third World War
all able bodies gone to war and the rest of the nation working to support the war effort no time for hunting.
How long will the "good old days" last this time 10 years, 20 years, 30. One thing I would bet you my life savings on is it would not last any longer than the last time.
But then again we could just try HELL FN RIGHT .
Click to expand...


How dare you use ACTUAL historical facts.

We all know the golden age was from world class mule deer management.?

Well states!!
 
notdonhunting said:
I never said mother nature was the only issue.
And 2lumpy is right it has been done before.
if managed to bring the deer herds back to anything even close to the "good old days".
We would need to create hundreds of thousands of pristine habitat "over grazing from cattle", kill 99 percent of all predators "including your precious lions", and have a third World War
all able bodies gone to war and the rest of the nation working to support the war effort no time for hunting.
How long will the "good old days" last this time 10 years, 20 years, 30. One thing I would bet you my life savings on is it would not last any longer than the last time.
But then again we could just try HELL FN RIGHT .
Click to expand...
Well if these bureaucrats are still running the program, after a recover, any recovery, and they manage it the same way they have the last 40 years, 5 years and you’re right back where it is to day. Imagine that. The only reason to put treasure and sweat into a recover is that they DON’T go back to the same management strategies that got us here.

I’m embarrassed to have to say this, “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.”
 
2lumpy said:
Well if these bureaucrats are still running the program, after a recover, any recovery, and they manage it they have the last 40 years, 5 years and you’re right back where it is to day. Imagine that. The only reason to put treasure and sweat into a recover is that they DON’T go back to the same management strategies that got us here.

I’m embarrassed to have to say this, “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.”
Click to expand...
Can not argue with you onbthat one.
 
2lumpy said:
Well if these bureaucrats are still running the program, after a recover, any recovery, and they manage it the same way they have the last 40 years, 5 years and you’re right back where it is to day. Imagine that. The only reason to put treasure and sweat into a recover is that they DON’T go back to the same management strategies that got us here.

I’m embarrassed to have to say this, “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.”
Click to expand...


Yet we keep cutting tags.

Insane!!
 
1693223767281.png




If there was just a guy around that didn't care about everyone's feelings and could tell us the truth like he had some special understanding of wildlife and people.
 
The north slope unit should have cut another 2000 tags. The worst I've ever seen it and I've hunted it for 36 years. The diamond mountain unit also is way down this year.
 
2lumpy said:
You know, I can’t actually argue with that but think carefully who was actually the, boots on the ground, during the time those idea didn’t work. It’s wasn’t the sportsmen/hunters and the bureaucrats long knives were definitely active and successful.

However, your right, we damn sure failed, that is an absolute fact.

Our biggest failure was allowing the bureaucrats to circumvent anything and everything. We wasted our time and money. I wish to he!! we had left it completely up to them and they could own this cluster by themselves.

Having conceded that to you, it’s your turn, we are leaving you a he!! of a mess……. that was never our intent but be that as it may, it’s your turn to deal with it for the next few generations.
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I sincerely commend you for your efforts. Your actions have been consistent with your convictions.

We'll live with the mess. The habitat projects didn't fix it. Tons of units didn't fix it. Cutting tags didn't fix it. Cutting dates didn't fix it. Cutting doe tags didn't. Coyote bounties didn't fix it.

Now we get to hear how all the tech and housing development has ruined the herd, even though they didn't. The bureaucrats didn't ruin it either. We've had a bad drought the past few years. Is it any more complicated than that? Harsh winter kill in 2010/2011 then there was some recovery. We had a good run of success rates and mature deer harvest 2012 - 2019, so it's not all bad.

I'm out of ideas. I'll just draw a tag when I can and pray for some wet and mild winters.

I'm not going fight about it on here for another 2 decades.
 
mossback50cal said:
Also, like many people have said, technology is a huge issue. Success rates have sky rocketed on archery and muzzleloader hunts. Makes it a lot easier with long range muzzleloader, and archery equipment that is able to shoot 100 yards and beyond.
Click to expand...

Yes, many people have said technology is a big issue, but, apparently, none of them did their homework!

Utah Yearly Archery General Deer Success Rates:
1952--9.8------1972--16.2------1992--13.0------2012--19.1
1953--15.0-----1973--13.9------1993--20.6------2013--18.4
1954--23.8-----1974--8.4-------1994--18.6------2014--20.8
1955--16.7-----1975--7.5-------1995--15.0------2015--23.9
1956--19.2-----1976--6.0-------1996--16.6------2016--21.5
1957--13.5-----1977--8.1-------1997--14.4------2017--20.8
1958--15.7-----1978--8.0-------1998--17.7------2018--22.0
1959--16.6-----1979--12.4------1999--20.9-----2019--16.5
1960--20.6-----1980--14.8------2000--22.9-----2020--18.8
1961--22.0-----1981--15.8------2001--17.7-----2021--17.7
1962--18.5-----1982--15.4------2002--17.2-----2022--18.5
1963--15.9-----1983--15.8------2003--17.8
1964--18.2-----1984--15.6------2004--17.8
1965--13.3-----1985--15.4------2005--15.6
1966--20.5-----1986--10.9------2006--22.1
1967--17.1-----1987--13.0------2007--23.0
1968--18.3-----1988--11.5------2008--19.7
1969--16.2-----1989--11.5------2009--20.6
1970--17.9-----1990--12.1------2010--17.4
1971--18.2------1991--14.8-----2011--16.4

Utah Yearly Muzzleloader General Deer Success Rates
1973--16.0------1986--20.2------1999--38.7------2012--32.0
1974--8.0-------1987--21.0------2000--37.7------2013--30.7
1975--13.0------1988--26.0------2001--31.8------2014--31.1
1976--16.5------1989--24.2------2002--27.6------2015--34.5
1977--12.1------1990--23.9------2003--28.3------2016--39.3
1978--10.7------1991--23.8------2004--31.1------2017--33.5
1979--24.2------1992--25.9------2005--27.4------2018--37.5
1980--9.9-------1993--22.1------2006--32.6------2019--27.0
1981--21.3------1994--19.5------2007--33.3------2020--30.1
1982--26.6------1995--16.0------2008--27.6------2021--33.9
1983--27.1------1996--26.0------2009--29.4------2022--38.7
1984--24.1------1997--19.5------2010--22.7
1985--18.7------1998--23.7------2011--19.6

Slight rises, but certainly no sky-rocketing! And no way of pinning this all on technology.
 
johnnyutah said:
I sincerely commend you for your efforts. Your actions have been consistent with your convictions.

We'll live with the mess. The habitat projects didn't fix it. Tons of units didn't fix it. Cutting tags didn't fix it. Cutting dates didn't fix it. Cutting doe tags didn't. Coyote bounties didn't fix it.

Now we get to hear how all the tech and housing development has ruined the herd, even though they didn't. The bureaucrats didn't ruin it either. We've had a bad drought the past few years. Is it any more complicated than that? Harsh winter kill in 2010/2011 then there was some recovery. We had a good run of success rates and mature deer harvest 2012 - 2019, so it's not all bad.

I'm out of ideas. I'll just draw a tag when I can and pray for some wet and mild winters.

I'm not going fight about it on here for another 2 decades.
Click to expand...
And I would include invasive annual grasses, primarily cheatgrass.
 
I can't say this enough, but I like to hit the mountains when the archery hunters are out there to visit with them. When they find out I'm not archery hunting a lot of them will open up to what they have been seeing and shooting at. Either, rifle and muzzleloader hunters are bigger liars or those archers wound a heck of a lot more deer from my observations and discussions. I believe if the actual truth was known, the archery killing of deer percentages equals or exceeds the other methods of hunting. Those include wounded animals which are now dead. I have hunted all three ways.
Many years ago I ran into a sheep herder I knew. He saw I was archery hunting and told me to get out of his camp. He had seen enough deer with arrows sticking out of them to last a life time. You archery diehards can say what you want. Make any excuse you want. To me the unproven fact still remains.
A couple of years ago we ran into a young man and his mother a long the side of the road. We stopped to see if they needed help. The young boy said his dad and brother were looking for a deer they had wounded earlier in the day and couldn't find it. The mother tried to shut the young boy up before it got out, but didn't succeed. Exception or Rule? :(
 
cannonball said:
I can't say this enough, but I like to hit the mountains when the archery hunters are out there to visit with them. When they find out I'm not archery hunting a lot of them will open up to what they have been seeing and shooting at. Either, rifle and muzzleloader hunters are bigger liars or those archers wound a heck of a lot more deer from my observations and discussions. I believe if the actual truth was known, the archery killing of deer percentages equals or exceeds the other methods of hunting. Those include wounded animals which are now dead. I have hunted all three ways.
Many years ago I ran into a sheep herder I knew. He saw I was archery hunting and told me to get out of his camp. He had seen enough deer with arrows sticking out of them to last a life time. You archery diehards can say what you want. Make any excuse you want. To me the unproven fact still remains.
A couple of years ago we ran into a young man and his mother a long the side of the road. We stopped to see if they needed help. The young boy said his dad and brother were looking for a deer they had wounded earlier in the day and couldn't find it. The mother tried to shut the young boy up before it got out, but didn't succeed. Exception or Rule? :(
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Facts are proven, just for starters, not based on anecdotal evidence and sheepherders, who if they were English speaking,places the conservation pre compound bow.

But just by the size of the hunter pool, even if their wound loss is 75% less than archers(silly), when combined with direct kills, rifles kill more.

So you've just pushed more guys who archery hunt for the long time frame, towards rifles if you cut the archery hunt in half and leave rifles a 2weekend hunt.

I've never seen a deer with an arrow stuck in it. Seen elk.
 
hossblur said:
Facts are proven, just for starters, not based on anecdotal evidence and sheepherders, who if they were English speaking,places the conservation pre compound bow.

But just by the size of the hunter pool, even if their wound loss is 75% less than archers(silly), when combined with direct kills, rifles kill more.

So you've just pushed more guys who archery hunt for the long time frame, towards rifles if you cut the archery hunt in half and leave rifles a 2weekend hunt.

I've never seen a deer with an arrow stuck in it. Seen elk.
Click to expand...
You Better Get You Some Glasses!
 
hossblur said:
Facts are proven, just for starters, not based on anecdotal evidence and sheepherders, who if they were English speaking,places the conservation pre compound bow.

But just by the size of the hunter pool, even if their wound loss is 75% less than archers(silly), when combined with direct kills, rifles kill more.

So you've just pushed more guys who archery hunt for the long time frame, towards rifles if you cut the archery hunt in half and leave rifles a 2weekend hunt.

I've never seen a deer with an arrow stuck in it. Seen elk.
Click to expand...
My brother killed a deer when we were younger that had a broadhead in its hind quarter. Didn’t end up eating the meat because that quarter had a horrible infection and we figured it had spread to the blood. Back when the muzzy season started the day after archery ended here in nm. Wasn’t noticeable aside from a limp until we smelled it. Wounding animals happens. That’s where ethics come in. If you wound an animal you hunt that animal and not give up. Only one time in all the archery hunts has that happened to me. Never found the deer, but didn’t attempt to go after any others either. In all seriousness on this post, there are a lot of issues that need to be addressed. It isn’t a problem that one solution will fix. A lot of people have good ideas, and I think we need all of them to get this ship righted. We as hunters need to take the initiative, and stop fighting and arguing amongst ourselves. That will only divide us even more and will solve absolutely nothing.
 
mossback50cal said:
My brother killed a deer when we were younger that had a broadhead in its hind quarter. Didn’t end up eating the meat because that quarter had a horrible infection and we figured it had spread to the blood. Back when the muzzy season started the day after archery ended here in nm. Wasn’t noticeable aside from a limp until we smelled it. Wounding animals happens. That’s where ethics come in. If you wound an animal you hunt that animal and not give up. Only one time in all the archery hunts has that happened to me. Never found the deer, but didn’t attempt to go after any others either. In all seriousness on this post, there are a lot of issues that need to be addressed. It isn’t a problem that one solution will fix. A lot of people have good ideas, and I think we need all of them to get this ship righted. We as hunters need to take the initiative, and stop fighting and arguing amongst ourselves. That will only divide us even more and will solve absolutely nothing.
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I agree, but the biggest threats aren't whether there are 40" bucks laying on the side of the road. The biggest threats are from outside, and intentionally cutting away more of us, makes us a weak target.

We need to address ways to improve, always, and I'd be open to any. But no more weakening out numbers, political clout, etc
 
I agree with you hossblur, but how do you do that when no one wants to give an inch. Don't decrease anything and it's is my way or the highway attitude. How do I drive it home. You cannot hunt all fall and winter until you have driven the animals to the fields and towns. There are so many problems today which could be eliminated or added to improve deer hunting if hunters as well as game managers would see eye to eye. Nothing makes me more mad than to have sportsmen vote on what we need to do. It is like directing traffic in a large city street. Not everybody can do it. And also nothing makes me madder than game managers doing nothing and put it up for vote. I guess I am just mad. After my rant again I say, get the hunters out of the mountains earlier and open bear hunting up like the cougar hunt. That is my one and two list. What's yours?
 
cannonball said:
I agree with you hossblur, but how do you do that when no one wants to give an inch. Don't decrease anything and it's is my way or the highway attitude. How do I drive it home. You cannot hunt all fall and winter until you have driven the animals to the fields and towns. There are so many problems today which could be eliminated or added to improve deer hunting if hunters as well as game managers would see eye to eye. Nothing makes me more mad than to have sportsmen vote on what we need to do. It is like directing traffic in a large city street. Not everybody can do it. And also nothing makes me madder than game managers doing nothing and put it up for vote. I guess I am just mad. After my rant again I say, get the hunters out of the mountains earlier and open bear hunting up like the cougar hunt. That is my one and two list. What's yours?
Click to expand...


It's unpopular. But with the acreage swallowed by CWMU and LE we concentrate a ton of hunters on too small an area.

So mine is be done with LE, BE DONE WITH CWMU.

CWMU isn't what it was set about to do. Big places like Deseret where the idea. But know, outfitters seek to combine smaller ranches, that did t qualify into blocks that do. The bigger ranches have branched out into corporate packages.

We had private land hunting before CWMU. Trespass fees can be charged. The draw of CWMU is repeat buisness not dependent on draws. Without guaranteed repeat buisness, landowners would be forced to compete in prices of trespass, lowering the prices.

And now here's the really unpopular one. End LE. Again, open up the public land to the owners of such.

Add all that area, and without cutting a tag you lower pressure, leading to more deer getting by, and, fewer chased to town.

I'm for making each weapon harder.

Make let off weight higher. Muzzys like Idaho.

Rifles are much harder, so perhaps instead of arguing, just make the season 3 days.

And finally, ban guiding on public land

Trying to control success rates only works if professionals aren't involved. The publics 25-30% success rates are tripled by the pros.
 
Just to complete the success stats:

Utah Yearly Any Weapon General Deer Success Rates
1975--23.2--------1987--36.6-------1999--32.7-------2011--28.9
1976--32.7--------1988--33.9-------2000--33.6-------2012--36.5
1977--35.0--------1989--31.0-------2001--31.1-------2013--37.5
1978--33.0--------1990--31.3-------2002--26.6-------2014--38.7
1979--30.4--------1991--28.2-------2003--25.3-------2015--42.5
1980--33.5--------1992--28.4-------2004--35.6-------2016--43.7
1981--40.9--------1993--18.4-------2005--26.4-------2017--49.4
1982--36.2--------1994--33.0-------2006--38.0-------2018--39.4
1983--38.8--------1995--25.1-------2007--35.8-------2019--29.3
1984--35.5--------1996--34.7-------2008--28.0-------2020--28.6
1985--30.2--------1997--29.7-------2009--30.3-------2021--39.3
1986--34.2--------1998--31.1-------2010--25.1-------2022--43.1

Again, not much of a rise. Let's not manage and regulate above the need!
 
elkfromabove said:
Just to complete the success stats:

Utah Yearly Any Weapon General Deer Success Rates
1975--23.2--------1987--36.6-------1999--32.7-------2011--28.9
1976--32.7--------1988--33.9-------2000--33.6-------2012--36.5
1977--35.0--------1989--31.0-------2001--31.1-------2013--37.5
1978--33.0--------1990--31.3-------2002--26.6-------2014--38.7
1979--30.4--------1991--28.2-------2003--25.3-------2015--42.5
1980--33.5--------1992--28.4-------2004--35.6-------2016--43.7
1981--40.9--------1993--18.4-------2005--26.4-------2017--49.4
1982--36.2--------1994--33.0-------2006--38.0-------2018--39.4
1983--38.8--------1995--25.1-------2007--35.8-------2019--29.3
1984--35.5--------1996--34.7-------2008--28.0-------2020--28.6
1985--30.2--------1997--29.7-------2009--30.3-------2021--39.3
1986--34.2--------1998--31.1-------2010--25.1-------2022--43.1

Again, not much of a rise. Let's not manage and regulate above the need!
Click to expand...
That has more to do with favorable weather and b/d management than weapons being used. Hunting in the 80's - see hundreds of deer and maybe a yearling buck. Things bounced back in 2014 after some bad winters and the b/d ratios were helpful. Then we got a drought and it tanked again. It bounced last year because they cut tags drastically. There's my armchair analysis.
 
johnnyutah said:
That has more to do with favorable weather and b/d management than weapons being used. Hunting in the 80's - see hundreds of deer and maybe a yearling buck. Things bounced back in 2014 after some bad winters and the b/d ratios were helpful. Then we got a drought and it tanked again. It bounced last year because they cut tags drastically. There's my armchair analysis.
Click to expand...
Your armchair analysis is probably close! My point in showing the stats is to show that technology has very little to do with success rates and all this concern about technology isn't warranted.
 
I've said many times and I will say it again, if you try to get everything done, you will get nothing. A person must learn to pick their fights. You cannot get everything all at once, and you if you are dumb in what you are asking for, you are a fool. The Power People will eat you alive and that is what is wrong with John Doe sportsmen today. The Power People are the clubs, guide services, land owners, politicians and others. Those who have a personal agenda and I am not talking about those who are out to help wildlife, just those are trying to advance their agenda which may be contrary to our wildlife survival.
 
cannonball said:
I've said many times and I will say it again, if you try to get everything done, you will get nothing. A person must learn to pick their fights. You cannot get everything all at once, and you if you are dumb in what you are asking for, you are a fool. The Power People will eat you alive and that is what is wrong with John Doe sportsmen today. The Power People are the clubs, guide services, land owners, politicians and others. Those who have a personal agenda and I am not talking about those who are out to help wildlife, just those are trying to advance their agenda which may be contrary to our wildlife survival.
Click to expand...

You are right. Which is exactly why I'm so hard line on no more tag cuts.

As we lost avg hunters, the corporation filled the funding vaccum, and with that came strings.

Notice how many tags $fw/MDF/RMEF, CWMU, have cut in the last 5 years. Look how many we have
 
Here's an idea. Lets just start selling tags for parking lots. Its opportunity right. You get a gun and go stake out Wally World for your next muley buck. Who cares if there aren't any deer there because we manage for good ol' opportunity. A snow ball's chance in hell is an opportunity.

Hey lets get the board to agree we will never ever cut tag numbers on the parking lot tags. If its the only deer in the parking lot unit blast that sumbeeoch. F-em all and give me mine. Its the only thing that will save huntin'.

 
Here's an idea, let's auction off all our tags to deep pocket out of staters and let special interest groups keep the change to pay salaries of fundraisers who then auction more tags. That tag money can then be used to bribe politicians into giving tax money to yet another group to pay more salaries, and create magical forcefields to stop wolves from walking into the state.

Then, we can auction more big game tags, to raise pen raised pheasants to keep the little people content while the important folks hunt deer yearly, while we all beg at the kings throne for some scraps.

That will sure "save the mule deer"
 

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