ANY OAK CREEK RIFLE BRUISERS BEING TAKEN???

Not quiet one bit. Set up an Instagram account and look at Utah premier outfitters. Multiple giants have hit the dirt on the Oak Creek. Multiple giants will die next year as well on that unit. Lots of big GS rifle bucks this year as well.
 
wstrntines said:
Not quiet one bit. Set up an Instagram account and look at Utah premier outfitters. Multiple giants have hit the dirt on the Oak Creek. Multiple giants will die next year as well on that unit. Lots of big GS rifle bucks this year as well.
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Took wstrntines advice,one is the governor buck that i know came off the OC and 2 of them are labeled as oakcreek bucks I'm assuming the other two are as well.
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Ya a lot of them are oak creek bucks just crossing the boundary back and forth. Or that came down to rut
 
Chump said:
WTF are they feeding them????
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These large mule deer are not unique to Antelope Island, Oak Creek, Henry’s, Paunsaugunt, Deseret Land and Livestock, Alton Ranches, etc.

In the past they were found on the Pavhant/Fillmore, Beaver, Boulder, South Slope, San Juan, Manti, Logan, a dozen other units and the largest bucks very often came off the State’s the most populated counties, the Wasatch Mountain Range. Yes……… it was the most populated with the humans back then too.

82,000 buck deer were killed in 1982.

200,000 hunters in the 1980’s

Mule deer have been lost to the destructive mission of the Utah Deoartment of Wildlife Resources: Maximum Recreational Opportunity, then and now.

Rhetorically……. It’s not simply the feed they’re eating on Oak Creek.

And I’m the crazy old bastard that can’t get over it.

Not taking this out on you Chump, the blame lays squarely at the feet of the UDWR, 100%. Oh ya, there is 30 years of draught on every unit accept for the Oak Creek, we all know Oak Creek has a perfect climate and perfect habitat, with zero lions and no coyotes and not vehicle fatalities ……. for crying out loud, give us a fricking break!
 
2lumpy said:
These large mule deer are not unique to Antelope Island, Oak Creek, Henry’s, Paunsaugunt, Deseret Land and Livestock, Alton Ranches, etc.

In the past they were found on the Pavhant/Fillmore, Beaver, Boulder, South Slope, San Juan, Manti, Logan, a dozen other units and the largest bucks very often came off the State’s the most populated counties, the Wasatch Mountain Range. Yes……… it was the most populated with the humans back then too.

82,000 buck deer were killed in 1982.

200,000 hunters in the 1980’s

Mule deer have been lost to the destructive mission of the Utah Deoartment of Wildlife Resources: Maximum Recreational Opportunity, then and now.

Rhetorically……. It’s not simply the feed they’re eating on Oak Creek.

And I’m the crazy old bastard that can’t get over it.

Not taking this out on you Chump, the blame lays squarely at the feet of the UDWR, 100%. Oh ya, there is 30 years of draught on every unit accept for the Oak Creek, we all know Oak Creek has a perfect climate and perfect habitat, with zero lions and no coyotes and not vehicle fatalities ……. for crying out loud, give us a fricking break!
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Sooooo are we supposed to manage every unit like the oak creek, pauns, and henerys?
 
JakeH said:
Sooooo are we supposed to manage every unit like the oak creek, pauns, and henerys?
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That’s their idea, not mine. Every unit’s unique, no different than a ranch. If you tried to manage the Deseret the same as the Alton or the same as the Keller Cattle Ranch or the Sandy Ranch, how would that work for you. Jake, you know that’s gone on here as well as anybody. Tell me where I’m wrong……,
 
2lumpy said:
That’s their idea, not mine. Every unit’s unique, no different than a ranch. If you tried to manage the Deseret the same as the Alton or the same as the Keller Cattle Ranch or the Sandy Ranch, how would that work for you. Jake, you know that’s gone on here as well as anybody. Tell me where I’m wrong……,
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I'm not willing to blame everything on the DWR, have they been perfect, nope but hell deer populations are declining across every state not just Utah.

Those units are managed for extreme quality and have very limited tags, I don't know about you but I still want to hunt more then once every 20 years or more.

You said yourself they went from 200,000+ tags down to under 90,000. What do you suggest we take it down to?
 
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ridgetops said:
With only about 50-100 tags for each sub unit. How awesome would that be? Except that we would only get to hunt every 20-30 years.
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How come we had 82,000 bucks killed by 200,000 in 1980s?

Answer……. More mule deer……. imagine that?
 
JakeH said:
I'm not willing to blame everything on the DWR, have then been perfect, nope but hell deer populations are declining across every state not just Utah.

Those units are managed for extreme quality and have very limited tags, I don't know about you but I still want to hunt more then once every 20 years or more.

You said yourself they went from 200,000+ tags down to under 90,000. What do you suggest we take it down to?
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You’re asking me to provide you with a number for 30 uniques. Who’s job is that…… ask them.

Jake, you know what’s gone on………. If you’re satisfied….. happy for you.
 
2lumpy said:
You’re asking me to provide you with a number for 30 uniques. Who’s job is that…… ask them.

Jake, you know what’s gone on………. If you’re satisfied….. happy for you.
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Well I know they haven't been killing doe's in any real numbers for many many years, if hunters are not killing them then what is?

Not saying I'm satisfied but I'm also not going to blame the DWR for all our woe's. There are probably 100 different things that have contributed to our current situation. I feel like blaming the DWR for everything is a cop out.
 
"Well I know they haven't been killing doe's in any real numbers for many many years, if hunters are not killing them then what is?"

The does aren't being killed. They have all migrated to the Pine Valley unit along with all of the spike/forks.
 
2lumpy said:
You’re asking me to provide you with a number for 30 uniques. Who’s job is that…… ask them.

Jake, you know what’s gone on………. If you’re satisfied….. happy for you.
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Regarding other States mule deer.

I’m sure you know this group.

WAFWA – Western Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies

wafwa.org wafwa.org

Same, same, same, same , same, same, same, same, same = same. Maximum Recreational Opportunity

You certainly understand that 400,000 mule deer, can not provide 82,000 hunter mule bucks………

“ I still want to hunt more then once every 20 years or more.”

How would you like to go without hunting mule deer for, 5 years, while you still hunted elk, antelope, ducks, geese, sheep, goats, bear, cougars, coyotes, upland game, fished, trapped, cross country skied, prospected, trained a horse, learn to rope, raise a calf, then have 15 years of hunting mule deer under a management that focused on maintaining a healthy herd, based on a safe distance from maximum carry capacity. At the rate we are going, rather than accepting the fact that mule deer will most likely be a non huntable species, is it too much to as hunters and State managers to sacrifice whatever it takes to regrow the herds. Do we absolutely have to hunt mule deer until we can’t. Sorry, I guess I shouldn’t have asked that, my bad.
 
2lumpy said:
Regarding other States mule deer.

I’m sure you know this group.

WAFWA – Western Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies

wafwa.org wafwa.org

Same, same, same, same , same, same, same, same, same = same. Maximum Recreational Opportunity

You certainly understand that 400,000 mule deer, can not provide 82,000 hunter mule bucks………

“ I still want to hunt more then once every 20 years or more.”

How would you like to go without hunting mule deer for, 5 years, while you still hunted elk, antelope, ducks, geese, sheep, goats, bear, cougars, coyotes, upland game, fished, trapped, cross country skied, prospected, trained a horse, learn to rope, raise a calf, then have 15 years of hunting mule deer under a management that focused on maintaining a healthy herd, based on a safe distance from maximum carry capacity. At the rate we are going, rather than accepting the fact that mule deer will most likely be a non huntable species, is it too much to as hunters and State managers to sacrifice whatever it takes to regrow the herds. Do we absolutely have to hunt mule deer until we can’t. Sorry, I guess I shouldn’t have asked that, my bad.
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We are already there, a lot of the general rifle hunts are taking 4 or 5 years to draw. So what are we going to cut it down too?

And 80,000 buck tags is not reducing the herds, we are not killing doe's. If we was giving out 80,000 doe tags you would have a point but the doe's are getting bred so there is enough bucks, they have proven this.

So what is killing the doe's and fawns? They have been doing some very good studies the last few years to figure that out. Recently the drought has been the absolute #1 factor as to the decline of the herds. The wet fall Last year and this year has gone a long way to helping our herds rebound some but we still have a lot of work to do to figure it all out.

I'm not nearly as doom and gloom about the future of our deer herds as you are lumpy, we can work with what we got, we will probably never reach the glory days of what once was, but we are far from to far gone to fix.
 
We both know we’ve chased this tail around the same tree for 30 years.

The Oak Creek and the other Premium Units and LE units have healthy herds. So do the private ranches. Same weather, same predators, same habitat, same deer genetics. How come? Luck?

Your generation Jake. Your world. All the best.
 
2lumpy said:
We both know we’ve chased this tail around the same tree for 30 years.

The Oak Creek and the other Premium Units and LE units have healthy herds. So do the private ranches. Same weather, same predators, same habitat, same deer genetics. How come? Luck?

Your generation Jake. Your world. All the best.
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Lol, it was just this spring everyone was b!tching and moaning that they was over harvesting the henerys, that population dropped by over a 1/3 in the last 10 years. You telling me it was caused by them killing 30 buck out of the unit every year?

Just about Every unit in the state has seen a quite significant rebound in quality this year judging by what I have been seeing killed online, also I have seen a ton of fawns, and seen reports about others seeing lots of fawns this year around the state and in other states why is that? Here is your answer, The Deer went into last winter as the healthiest and fattest deer the DWR had ever seen since they started doing there fat sampling studies in the winter months. The reason they was so fat and happy? We got a ton of late summer and fall rain across the whole state last year. We also had an average winter. The deer were in great shape which means they came out of the winter in great shape, doe's had fawns and bucks grew bigger antlers.

We have had a similar fall this year there is good feed everywhere. My suggestion to everyone with a bunch of points, "USE THEM" unless we have a significant impact from the winter the deer are going to be in good shape again and I bet we see similar results if not better next year.

Lumpy, we can't manage every unit like we do the oakcreek, puans and henerys, or those private ranches I wish we could and I guarantee they ain't in as good a shape as you claim, the herds have declined on all of them I guarantee. I know the henerys has because I've seen the actual numbers for it. It was one of the things that opened my eyes to this whole situation. How can a unit lose so much when it's being managed the way it is? It's not just the DWR that's the problem there are a multitude of things, hell and most of them are out of our control.

Does the DWR do some dumb stuff? Yep, but in the grand scheme of things I feel they are trying to do there best and don't want to screw up the herds. But they do have a tight rope to navigate with all the social issues they have to deal with as well. Could you imagine the b!thing and moaning that would be going on if they cut that 80,000 down to 40,000 and people wasn't going to get to hunt but once every 10-20 years?
 
A Little Less LEAD!

Alot Less OVER-HUNTING!

A Chance To Live Past Age 3!

Having Some Breeding Stock Left Come Rut Time!

The DWR Should Give In to The OPPORTUNISTS Before Long!

I Hope I'm Wrong & I Have ZERO Chance of Ever Hunting There!



Chump said:
WTF are they feeding them????
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JakeH said:
Lol, it was just this spring everyone was b!tching and moaning that they was over harvesting the henerys, that population dropped by over a 1/3 in the last 10 years. You telling me it was caused by them killing 30 buck out of the unit every year?

Just about Every unit in the state has seen a quite significant rebound in quality this year judging by what I have been seeing killed online, also I have seen a ton of fawns, and seen reports about others seeing lots of fawns this year around the state and in other states why is that? Here is your answer, The Deer went into last winter as the healthiest and fattest deer the DWR had ever seen since they started doing there fat sampling studies in the winter months. The reason they was so fat and happy? We got a ton of late summer and fall rain across the whole state last year. We also had an average winter. The deer were in great shape which means they came out of the winter in great shape, doe's had fawns and bucks grew bigger antlers.

We have had a similar fall this year there is good feed everywhere. My suggestion to everyone with a bunch of points, "USE THEM" unless we have a significant impact from the winter the deer are going to be in good shape again and I bet we see similar results if not better next year.

Lumpy, we can't manage every unit like we do the oakcreek, puans and henerys, or those private ranches I wish we could and I guarantee they ain't in as good a shape as you claim, the herds have declined on all of them I guarantee. I know the henerys has because I've seen the actual numbers for it. It was one of the things that opened my eyes to this whole situation. How can a unit lose so much when it's being managed the way it is? It's not just the DWR that's the problem there are a multitude of things, hell and most of them are out of our control.

Does the DWR do some dumb stuff? Yep, but in the grand scheme of things I feel they are trying to do there best and don't want to screw up the herds. But they do have a tight rope to navigate with all the social issues they have to deal with as well. Could you imagine the b!thing and moaning that would be going on if they cut that 80,000 down to 40,000 and people wasn't going to get to hunt but once every 10-20 years?
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Biologist ???
 
JakeH said:
Lol, it was just this spring everyone was b!tching and moaning that they was over harvesting the henerys, that population dropped by over a 1/3 in the last 10 years. You telling me it was caused by them killing 30 buck out of the unit every year?

Just about Every unit in the state has seen a quite significant rebound in quality this year judging by what I have been seeing killed online, also I have seen a ton of fawns, and seen reports about others seeing lots of fawns this year around the state and in other states why is that? Here is your answer, The Deer went into last winter as the healthiest and fattest deer the DWR had ever seen since they started doing there fat sampling studies in the winter months. The reason they was so fat and happy? We got a ton of late summer and fall rain across the whole state last year. We also had an average winter. The deer were in great shape which means they came out of the winter in great shape, doe's had fawns and bucks grew bigger antlers.

We have had a similar fall this year there is good feed everywhere. My suggestion to everyone with a bunch of points, "USE THEM" unless we have a significant impact from the winter the deer are going to be in good shape again and I bet we see similar results if not better next year.

Lumpy, we can't manage every unit like we do the oakcreek, puans and henerys, or those private ranches I wish we could and I guarantee they ain't in as good a shape as you claim, the herds have declined on all of them I guarantee. I know the henerys has because I've seen the actual numbers for it. It was one of the things that opened my eyes to this whole situation. How can a unit lose so much when it's being managed the way it is? It's not just the DWR that's the problem there are a multitude of things, hell and most of them are out of our control.

Does the DWR do some dumb stuff? Yep, but in the grand scheme of things I feel they are trying to do there best and don't want to screw up the herds. But they do have a tight rope to navigate with all the social issues they have to deal with as well. Could you imagine the b!thing and moaning that would be going on if they cut that 80,000 down to 40,000 and people wasn't going to get to hunt but once every 10-20 years?
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Well that’s great Jake. I’m thrilled that the weather has turned the ship in the right direction. No need for an ounce more management, it’s all a waste, money spent foolishly.

Got 3 inches of snow here last night. May as well give the DWR the week off, no need for them anyway. Never has been, according to their own science, there is nothing they can do.

That’s what they say, obviously you believe them…….. I’ll give it a rest for now. Enjoy the rut, it’s a great time to be in the field.
 
Wasn't the buck to doe ratio back in the 70's and 80's like 5:100. The vast majority of bucks being killed back then were yearling 2 points. Yeah there were a lot more deer but the idea that mega bucks were highly prevalent is just not true. I was a little guy in the 80's but all the family deer hunts I remember were a lot of 2 points killed and a very occasional 3 point. Nobody in my extended family passed on bucks, it was all about the meat bucks and there were a lot of them.

I think when we look back in time we get the 'ex-girlfriend syndrome' where we recall all the good but don't remember any of the bad.

No western state is kickin ass in the mule deer department--that is telling in and of itself
 
Not taking this out on you Chump, the blame lays squarely at the feet of the UDWR, 100%. Oh ya, there is 30 years of draught on every unit accept for the Oak Creek, we all know Oak Creek has a perfect climate and perfect habitat, with zero lions and no coyotes and not vehicle fatalities ……. for crying out loud, give us a fricking break!
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The Oak Creek has had several large fires in the last 20 years which have burned off tens of thousands of acres of PJS and greatly improved habitat. Less PJS better quality of feed, not only better feed but improves water resources PJS suck up alot of moisture.
Improve Habitat it will help improve deer numbers.
I don't have knowledge of lion population on the Oaks but I do believe the DWR is trying to keep their numbers down because of the sheep. The coyotes have been hit hard I do know that. They are always flying the Oaks and gunning coyotes again tge DWR does not want the Oak Creek sheep to become victim to predators.
Vehicle fatalities is low when compared to most other major deer units, there is not much traffic running on the paved road from highway 50 through Oak City to highway 6.
One other thing that is not pointed out, mostly because hunters don't want to talk about elk being a major problem for overall deer numbers, is the fact the DWR decided a few years back to try and reduce the elk numbers on the Oak Creek as much as they could and anyone that knows the Oaks know that is when the deer numbers really exploded I used my elk points to hunt that unit in 2006. The unit was not a great unit for elk but you could easily get into elk and I saw verry few deer but when the DWR opened that up for bulls and drastically increased cow permits the Oak Creek unit went down in elk numbers and up in deer numbers.
Yes i do belive the Oak Creek is a unique unit compared to most deer units in the state.
I know we can not control all these factors on most deer units in the state, it will be hard to even improve just a few of these issues on most deer units. I do know the Forset Service and the BLM is planning alot of acres to be burned In the state of Utah so we all should plan for burns to be effecting hunts in the future.
Yes 2lumpy you are right cutting permits will increase buck numbers and increase maturity and will probably increase overall deer numbers on some units if the situation is right.
I am 50 years old if cutting tags made it drawing out for a deer a permit once every 10 years for all deer units that would make it that I would hunt deer three more times before I am 80, no thanks.
I have seen deer numbers improve on some units one of them units is one of the heaviest hunted unit in the state. Deer numbers can be improved without destroying hunting opportunities.
 
2lumpy said:
Well that’s great Jake. I’m thrilled that the weather has turned the ship in the right direction. No need for an ounce more management, it’s all a waste, money spent foolishly.

Got 3 inches of snow here last night. May as well give the DWR the week off, no need for them anyway. Never has been, according to their own science, there is nothing they can do.

That’s what they say, obviously you believe them…….. I’ll give it a rest for now. Enjoy the rut, it’s a great time to be in the field.
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Lol, lumpy the fact you won't come at me with anything other than snarky comments must mean you don't have an argument against what I'm saying.
 
Airborne said:
Wasn't the buck to doe ratio back in the 70's and 80's like 5:100. The vast majority of bucks being killed back then were yearling 2 points. Yeah there were a lot more deer but the idea that mega bucks were highly prevalent is just not true. I was a little guy in the 80's but all the family deer hunts I remember were a lot of 2 points killed and a very occasional 3 point. Nobody in my extended family passed on bucks, it was all about the meat bucks and there were a lot of them.

I think when we look back in time we get the 'ex-girlfriend syndrome' where we recall all the good but don't remember any of the bad.

No western state is kickin ass in the mule deer department--that is telling in and of itself
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Not where I was hunting. I distinctly remember WAY more 4 points than I see now.
 
Predators are a MAJOR factor.
DWR has been giving the oaks significant predator attention because of the sheep, and the deer herd blows up… predators are a major player regarding mule deer numbers everywhere. Coyotes, cougars, eagles, and bears are all very high in numbers compared to the 70’s-80’s.
Predators are one thing we can and should do a better job of managing.
P&J removal has also been a very positive practice.
Deer herds can blow up fast if predators aren’t wrecking the fawns and weather corporates for a string of years.
 
JakeH said:
Lol, lumpy the fact you won't come at me with anything other than snarky comments must mean you don't have an argument against what I'm saying.
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That’s very true Jake, I won’t. My comments are snarky. I’m snarky. The arguments are the same today as they were ten/fifteen years ago. I’ve one finger typed then on this forum so many times I can no longer remember the lies I’ve told to keep them all straight.

If you want to read my come back, there must be close to a thousand previous posts I’ve made, at your disposal.

There is a bit of hard learned wisdom I’ve learn about my fellow sportsmen…….. they want what they want and no amount of comments, no amount of opinions, no amount of scientific research, no amount of empirical data is going to change their wants or their opinions. To that end, it seems, regarding the future of mule deer, you and I have nothing more worthwhile to discuss. I’ll give you the last word and move on. Maybe we can visit another day, over flash light or camp stove preferences.
 
2lumpy said:
That’s very true Jake, I won’t. My comments are snarky. I’m snarky. The arguments are the same today as they were ten/fifteen years ago. I’ve one finger typed then on this forum so many times I can no longer remember the lies I’ve told to keep them all straight.

If you want to read my come back, there must be close to a thousand previous posts I’ve made, at your disposal.

There is a bit of hard learned wisdom I’ve learn about my fellow sportsmen…….. they want what they want and no amount of comments, no amount of opinions, no amount of scientific research, no amount of empirical data is going to change their wants or their opinions. To that end, it seems, regarding the future of mule deer, you and I have nothing more worthwhile to discuss. I’ll give you the last word and move on. Maybe we can visit another day, over flash light or camp stove preferences.
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Lumpy I respect you and your opinion, and can agree on several things, the comment you made about everything being laid squarely on the DWR just seems a bit too generic and over used. I've taken the time to look at their proposals, understand what they are trying to do with them, and while I do not always agree with them I can usually see where they are coming from.

I've never set foot in the OC so I have no idea why it's blown up, but if ththings notdon said are true it looks like there are some very good reasons as to why the unit is doing as good as it is, that combined with extremely low hunting pressure makes for some amazing bucks.
 
There are obviously more reasons as to why the deer herd is in the shape it’s in (in most units) then the DWR.

While I am highly critical of the DWR in most cases, I think they get some reprieve on this one.

I will use the area I hunt as my example of things the DWR cannot control that have had major effects.

Population explosion- growing up, we had what seemed like very few “city deer”. But we had tons of agriculture, we had all the foot hills with sage and oak brush. Now those fields and foot hills are houses. With the expansion of people also came the covering of all the canals, ditches, creeks etc. now we have higher rates of vehicle-wildlife related incidents. Weirdly we have more “city deer” and less in the hills it seems.

Climate- there is no doubt that droughts have had an impact on deer numbers. Especially when their is less habitat. If you take away the amount of habitat, and then decrease the amounts of forage, cover, etc on that habitat, it will obviously have an effect on the animals.

Recreation- in my opinion, the trails (hiking, biking, atv, etc) have an impact on the animals. These animals never get a break from interaction. In the “good ole days” they only had to compete with the natural predators, and the sheep/cattle herders during the off season. Now they have all that, plus every other person, going through their home everyday, and most have Fido in tow. They don’t every truly get a break wether it’s on the winter range or the summer ground.

And the biggest factor- Us. Hunters/sportsmen. They limit us in tag numbers, season dates, they try to limit us in technology, they try to limit us in many ways. But with a knowingly dwindling source of our pursuit, we become more effective. We have trail cameras/drones etc, and watch them constantly. We have upgraded our equipment, we have added electronics, scopes, sabots, etc etc etc. and then to top it off, we have the disposable income to hire people to do everything but shoot the animal for us. When you knock the larger majority of “top quality” animals off of the units consistently, you will see the quality drop.

It’s websites, social media, apps etc just like this that have hurt animals significantly. Everyone wants people to ogle their animals, and it has made many people go further, hunt harder/longer, etc etc.

Now when they try to limit us, the precedent has been set, and there is some special interest group, or some outrage over limiting our technology, our hobby, our heritage or what ever other excuse.

Trying to blame the DWR, and not trying to factor in anything else is really tunnel visioned. There is obviously some fault on the DWR, but there are 100 different factors outside of their control as well.
 
Managing for 1 to 15 buck to doe ratio is not a healthy herd. The age class is not there as most of those bucks are 1-2 years old. Yes, you can breed the does and maintain the herds if you take out weather, drought, predators. But if you truly care about mule deer having those ratios of bucks to does is a losing battle. Before some of you jump on me, I know you can find mature bucks in this model, good for you ridgetops, you are better than most. This model has been employed in Oregon for years and the result is no deer left. So keep thinking this is the right way to manage mule deer and we will see what happens in a few years. I everyone wants to hunt and kill a mule deer every year. That ship has sailed.

Rich
 
Airborne said:
Wasn't the buck to doe ratio back in the 70's and 80's like 5:100. The vast majority of bucks being killed back then were yearling 2 points. Yeah there were a lot more deer but the idea that mega bucks were highly prevalent is just not true. I was a little guy in the 80's but all the family deer hunts I remember were a lot of 2 points killed and a very occasional 3 point. Nobody in my extended family passed on bucks, it was all about the meat bucks and there were a lot of them.

I think when we look back in time we get the 'ex-girlfriend syndrome' where we recall all the good but don't remember any of the bad.

No western state is kickin ass in the mule deer department--that is telling in and of itself
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Not true. I was born in 1980 and got to hear all the old timers talk about the past recent years. The 80s were awesome. You are right about more meat hunting in the 80s but we would see monsters every hunt. The winter of 91-92 changed everything in the mule deer world by killing 90 percent of the deer followed by drought and major population boom.

Now we are waging war on them with about 5 different seasons every fall from August through November. Poor things can’t get a break especially from all our gadgets and killing gizmo tech trash.
 
BeDawg said:
Not true. I was born in 1980 and got to hear all the old timers talk about the past recent years. The 80s were awesome. You are right about more meat hunting in the 80s but we would see monsters every hunt. The winter of 91-92 changed everything in the mule deer world by killing 90 percent of the deer followed by drought and major population boom.

Now we are waging war on them with about 5 different seasons every fall from August through November. Poor things can’t get a break especially from all our gadgets and killing gizmo tech trash.
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What part of what I said was not true? The buck to doe ratio was true--tons of does, meaning tons of small bucks every year, and most of them being killed by the hordes of hunters. Just by the sheer numbers of deer there are going to be more large bucks but still relatively rare compared to number of deer as a whole.

As an aside, we are the same age, how the hell do you remember all those monster bucks you were glassing up in 1985 when you were 5 years old? I don't have the best memory but I am going to take with a grain of salt someone my same age who tells me about all the monster bucks they were seeing when a lot of that time was spent just learning how to not sh!t one's pants. I do remember my favorite GI Joe--Flint was badass!

Some family's were better at killin big one's, doesn't mean there were big one's everywhere. I agree with everything else you said though.
 
DBG3285 said:
There are obviously more reasons as to why the deer herd is in the shape it’s in (in most units) then the DWR.

While I am highly critical of the DWR in most cases, I think they get some reprieve on this one.

I will use the area I hunt as my example of things the DWR cannot control that have had major effects.

Population explosion- growing up, we had what seemed like very few “city deer”. But we had tons of agriculture, we had all the foot hills with sage and oak brush. Now those fields and foot hills are houses. With the expansion of people also came the covering of all the canals, ditches, creeks etc. now we have higher rates of vehicle-wildlife related incidents. Weirdly we have more “city deer” and less in the hills it seems.

Climate- there is no doubt that droughts have had an impact on deer numbers. Especially when their is less habitat. If you take away the amount of habitat, and then decrease the amounts of forage, cover, etc on that habitat, it will obviously have an effect on the animals.

Recreation- in my opinion, the trails (hiking, biking, atv, etc) have an impact on the animals. These animals never get a break from interaction. In the “good ole days” they only had to compete with the natural predators, and the sheep/cattle herders during the off season. Now they have all that, plus every other person, going through their home everyday, and most have Fido in tow. They don’t every truly get a break wether it’s on the winter range or the summer ground.

And the biggest factor- Us. Hunters/sportsmen. They limit us in tag numbers, season dates, they try to limit us in technology, they try to limit us in many ways. But with a knowingly dwindling source of our pursuit, we become more effective. We have trail cameras/drones etc, and watch them constantly. We have upgraded our equipment, we have added electronics, scopes, sabots, etc etc etc. and then to top it off, we have the disposable income to hire people to do everything but shoot the animal for us. When you knock the larger majority of “top quality” animals off of the units consistently, you will see the quality drop.

It’s websites, social media, apps etc just like this that have hurt animals significantly. Everyone wants people to ogle their animals, and it has made many people go further, hunt harder/longer, etc etc.

Now when they try to limit us, the precedent has been set, and there is some special interest group, or some outrage over limiting our technology, our hobby, our heritage or what ever other excuse.

Trying to blame the DWR, and not trying to factor in anything else is really tunnel visioned. There is obviously some fault on the DWR, but there are 100 different factors outside of their control as well.
Click to expand...

A 100?

That's More Than HELL-F'N-RIGHT!:D
 
I don’t want to see the Manti managed like the Pauns.

I’d rather kill a 2 point next year than watch from the sidelines while 10 people hunt it for 200” bucks each year.

We have LE units. If that’s your jam, stick to those. Heck, we’ve got multiple premium units that are as good as anything in the mule deer world. Stick to those units if that’s your thing. I’ll stick to the Mantis of the world. We can both be happy.
 
Airborne said:
What part of what I said was not true? The buck to doe ratio was true--tons of does, meaning tons of small bucks every year, and most of them being killed by the hordes of hunters. Just by the sheer numbers of deer there are going to be more large bucks but still relatively rare compared to number of deer as a whole.

As an aside, we are the same age, how the hell do you remember all those monster bucks you were glassing up in 1985 when you were 5 years old? I don't have the best memory but I am going to take with a grain of salt someone my same age who tells me about all the monster bucks they were seeing when a lot of that time was spent just learning how to not sh!t one's pants. I do remember my favorite GI Joe--Flint was badass!

Some family's were better at killin big one's, doesn't mean there were big one's everywhere. I agree with everything else you said though.
Click to expand...
I do remember the big bucks starting at about 1985 when I was 5 years old. Don’t be so sensitive.
 
I remember bucks in the 70's, then when I started hunting in the 80's. Till about '88, one of 3 of us got a chance at a 30ish" buck nearly every year. Downhill after that. I heard stories of the 50's and 60's where they passed BIG bucks to kill a 2 point because they were better eating.
 
BeDawg said:
I do remember the big bucks starting at about 1985 when I was 5 years old. Don’t be so sensitive.
Click to expand...
Ohhh I'm not sensitive, I guess your family was just better at killin big bucks while mine was knockin down piles of 2 points so my grandma could bottle them. I will say this--it sucks gettin older--kind of sneaks up on ya
 
The deer need good feed. Raise some chickens for eggs and see how it goes if you don't give them enough protein. If you don't the egg count will nose dive. Maybe deer are same problem.
 
The problem with remembering management by memory and stories is no one remembers the normal years. We only remember the exceptions, that’s how memory works. Stories are just the same, no one tells stories about the average years, we get embellished tales of the best and worst that the world had to offer
 
berrysblaster said:
The problem with remembering management by memory and stories is no one remembers the normal years. We only remember the exceptions, that’s how memory works. Stories are just the same, no one tells stories about the average years, we get embellished tales of the best and worst that the world had to offer
Click to expand...
This!


That’s all for now.
 
Vanilla said:
I don’t want to see the Manti managed like the Pauns.

I’d rather kill a 2 point next year than watch from the sidelines while 10 people hunt it for 200” bucks each year.

We have LE units. If that’s your jam, stick to those. Heck, we’ve got multiple premium units that are as good as anything in the mule deer world. Stick to those units if that’s your thing. I’ll stick to the Mantis of the world. We can both be happy.
Click to expand...
If you hunt hard enough and have some luck on your side you may even kill a nice 4 point ?
 

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