Another Educational Opportunity

Bluehair said:
Spray the whole state for all I care. Anything to keep issuing 4,000,000 tags a year. At least you can say you did something.

Look in the photo a day thread to see plenty of my pictures of bucks hanging out with the gals. Also lots of pictures of them eating cheatgrass.

I do not have any pictures of crazed carnivorous bucks attacking and killing the women and children; just each other.
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"4,000,000 tags a year"?. "Bucks hanging out with the gals"? "pictures of them eating cheatgrass"? "crazed carnivorous bucks attacking and killing the women and children"? Have you actually been reading my posts or are you just trying to start another argument? How about just sticking to the facts without all the drama?
 
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elkfromabove said:
Why is it that you feel you have to exadurate
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Sometimes…. when people exadurate it’s because they are frustrated and attempting get a point across that isn’t resonating with the other party.

Or….. they are being sarcastic…… Or…… both.

Lot of exadurating being going on for the past 35 years regarding mule deer decline/management. Don’t you agree?
 
2lumpy said:
Sometimes…. when people exadurate it’s because they are frustrated and attempting get a point across that isn’t resonating with the other party.

Or….. they are being sarcastic…… Or…… both.

Lot of exadurating being going on for the past 35 years regarding mule deer decline/management. Don’t you agree?
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Oops! I'm doing this left-handed because my right arm is splintered and bandaged because my cardiologists had to clean a vein in preparation for my double heart valve surgery on the 16th and I hit the wrong button enter instead of backspace. But I edited it, so read it again, or not!
Edited: Yes, there has been lot "exadurating" going on and it's on all sides of the issues! But the numbers still don't lie. When I get back to normal, I'll tell you what our neighboring states' harvest reports say about it. They've got numbers too!
 
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elkassassin said:
How Bout The Deer that Get Hit So Hard They Are VAPORIZED?
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This is an actual thing FYI I have seen it up close and personal. Literally poof, spray of blood and gone.

Little late to the convo, but I’m very interested to see how the deer fair the next 2-3 years specifically. Coming off of a monster winter/kill in 22. Into absolutely prime conditions in 23.

We should see aggressive herd growth and recruitment for the next 5 years. If we don’t? I’d absolutely throw the current management plan in the garbage and start from scratch.

If you can’t make hay when the sun is shining, you’ve sunk. The whole thing is broke and should be tossed.
 
Cam@strawberry said:
This is an actual thing FYI I have seen it up close and personal. Literally poof, spray of blood and gone.

Little late to the convo, but I’m very interested to see how the deer fair the next 2-3 years specifically. Coming off of a monster winter/kill in 22. Into absolutely prime conditions in 23.

We should see aggressive herd growth and recruitment for the next 5 years. If we don’t? I’d absolutely throw the current management plan in the garbage and start from scratch.
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Finally:
Cam@strawberry said:
If you can’t make hay when the sun is shining, you’ve sunk. The whole thing is broke and should be tossed.
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Another question For BEAVIS?

In Daniels Canyon In The Winter Time After All The Elk Hunts Were Over You Could Always See Some Decent Bulls,And I'm Talkin Several!

The Last Few Years It's Day & Night Difference!

Ya,Still A Few Bulls In There!

But where'd The Size Go?

Where'd The numbers Go?
 
elkassassin said:
Another question For BEAVIS?

In Daniels Canyon In The Winter Time After All The Elk Hunts Were Over You Could Always See Some Decent Bulls,And I'm Talkin Several!

The Last Few Years It's Day & Night Difference!

Ya,Still A Few Bulls In There!

But where'd The Size Go?

Where'd The numbers Go?
Click to expand...
They’re not there that’s for sure… At least not in any numbers more than 10…
 
elkfromabove said:
"4,000,000 tags a year"?. "Bucks hanging out with the gals"? "pictures of them eating cheatgrass"? "crazed carnivorous bucks attacking and killing the women and children"? Have you actually been reading my posts or are you just trying to start another argument? How about just sticking to the facts without all the drama?
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As pointed out by the parliamentarian Lumpy, some of us use hyperbole and sarcasm to help make our point. It’s a lazy tactic, but can be sometimes effective or entertaining.

But to make my point perfectly clear, I simply don’t think cheatgrass is anywhere near to top of the list of things KILLING mule deer. Nor am I in the camp that believes you can kill all the bucks and still have a healty heard.

As for cheatgrass, I hate it also but ITS NOT TOXIC TO DEER. It may “destroy” some rangelands in localized areas (which really means to decrease the nutritional value not eliminate it), but I dispute that it is the best use of conservation money. Ironically, the worst cases of cheatgrass that I’ve seen personally were down in the PJ country in AZ where all the trees were chained down to increase runoff including to the rangeland reservoirs. Point being that cheatgrass usually follows some sort of human disturbance.

I’ll go ahead and challenge your assertion that “thousands” of deer have been killed indirectly (whatever that is) while I’m at it. You would think that would be a pretty easy number to calculate if you knew the acreage, pop density, and decreased nutritional value, but it’s not.

I tried to do it for some of my local counties, but -surprise - the goobermint data is so bad you can’t even make a reasonable guess (things like cheatgrass/bindweed populations ending at the county line, etc). But the whole point is moot anyway, because as has been pointed out here there aren’t that many places overrun with so many deer that the fawns are starving because the bucks won’t let them eat the trees (your hyperbole). Otherwise we wouldn’t be solving this problem would we?

As a property owner whose insurance company thinks I live in a high fire risk area, I agree about the issue with cheatgrass as a fuel. However, I’m not sure fire is a bad thing in terms of muley habitat. Nor do I have a settled opinion on elk vs deer.

I’m fortunate to live in an area with a growing muley herd (according to CPW). They have the 3 things they need - food, water, and shelter (protection). The order of things killing them is 1) people, 2) cars, 3) predators. I might make a very localized exception by lumping cars and equipment together and moving it to number 1 because a lot of fawns end up in the swathers during first cutting. Cheatgrass is not even on the first page. As I have said before here, I think bot flys kill more deer that cheatgrass.

I hope that clears up my position a little; it’s just one guy’s opinion. I also hope your personal challenges work out well. Good luck and keep up the good work.
 
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Bluehair said:
Also caught this presser the other day. Partisan grandstanding aside, a pretty good list of projects around the west. Oddly, nothing in Utah.

The sagebrush habitat one was interesting. The deer here eat the heck out of it this time of year. I quit killing it on my place.

www.blm.gov

Interior Department Announces Nearly $12 Million to Protect and Restore Western Wildlife Habitats and Migration Corridors | Bureau of Land Management

www.blm.gov www.blm.gov
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Utah isn’t on it because we don’t believe in migration corridors… We believe in development and bringing more liberals in…
 
Bluehair said:
I was thinking it was the other way around - you aren’t a total libtard state yet. But then how do you splain Wyoming?
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If you’re referring to the out of control windmill farms? That I have no idea, I would assume some politician is getting his/her pockets greased quite well allowing it…
 
Bluehair said:
As pointed out by the parliamentarian Lumpy, some of us use hyperbole and sarcasm to help make our point. It’s a lazy tactic, but can be sometimes effective or entertaining.

But to make my point perfectly clear, I simply don’t think cheatgrass is anywhere near to top of the list of things KILLING mule deer. Nor am I in the camp that believes you can kill all the bucks and still have a healty heard.

As for cheatgrass, I hate it also but ITS NOT TOXIC TO DEER. It may “destroy” some rangelands in localized areas (which really means to decrease the nutritional value not eliminate it), but I dispute that it is the best use of conservation money. Ironically, the worst cases of cheatgrass that I’ve seen personally were down in the PJ country in AZ where all the trees were chained down to increase runoff including to the rangeland reservoirs. Point being that cheatgrass usually follows some sort of human disturbance.

I’ll go ahead and challenge your assertion that “thousands” of deer have been killed indirectly (whatever that is) while I’m at it. You would think that would be a pretty easy number to calculate if you knew the acreage, pop density, and decreased nutritional value, but it’s not.

I tried to do it for some of my local counties, but -surprise - the goobermint data is so bad you can’t even make a reasonable guess (things like cheatgrass/bindweed populations ending at the county line, etc). But the whole point is moot anyway, because as has been pointed out here there aren’t that many places overrun with so many deer that the fawns are starving because the bucks won’t let them eat the trees (your hyperbole). Otherwise we wouldn’t be solving this problem would we?

As a property owner whose insurance company thinks I live in a high fire risk area, I agree about the issue with cheatgrass as a fuel. However, I’m not sure fire is a bad thing in terms of muley habitat. Nor do I have a settled opinion on elk vs deer.

I’m fortunate to live in an area with a growing muley herd (according to CPW). They have the 3 things they need - food, water, and shelter (protection). The order of things killing them is 1) people, 2) cars, 3) predators. I might make a very localized exception by lumping cars and equipment together and moving it to number 1 because a lot of fawns end up in the swathers during first cutting. Cheatgrass is not even on the first page. As I have said before here, I think bot flys kill more deer that cheatgrass.

I hope that clears up my position a little; it’s just one guy’s opinion. I also hope your personal challenges work out well. Good luck and keep up the good work.
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If I’m a parliamentarian, it’s purely by accident. Not really known for that in these parts.

Regarding your observations and opinions.

In my area, south central Utah, cheatgrass has become the dominate plant, on the winter range. Its exact as you say, it takes over after the previous plants have been disrupted via fire or human cultivation of some kind, such as juniper chaining or sage removal……. and then left unseeded, or seeded but not watered by snow or rain. Hence, millions of acres our winter range have very little follage but cheatgrass. It make a great spring food source but within 30 days, unless we get another heavy rain, it is dried out and has very little nutrients left in it. Cheatgrass is likely good in the spring and then the deer move above it in the summer, but……… when they return in October, there is no winter feed. That’s what hurts our mule deer here. The sage and bitterbrush have been killed, the cheatgrass has taken over and that leaves no good protein/fat on the winter range. And we all know what the consequence of poor winter range does to wildlife.

I 100% agree with your thoughts on the buck doe ratio concern. I don’t disagree with Dr. McMullian either.

It is very possible, when mule deer populations are at or even near carrying capacity on their home range, the number of buck per hundred does could cause the bucks to take precious,limited food/water from fawns, however, currently, we are no where near carrying capacity or anywhere near carry capacity at the present time, so his comment/observation/belief which many very well be true, wouldn’t seem to apply under our current condition.

Now, this may sound contradictory, where I’ve just said, we have a cheatgrass problem. I get that.

My b!tch has been and still is, we pay these bureaucrats to put their so called professional skills to solving these issues and ensure an abundance of the resources, which they clearly have done, in the past, so we know it can be done. I know times and conditions have changed. Of course they have, I have full knowledge of those changes as well as anyone else, but I do wish, now that they have been forced to manage each unit according it is individual needs, we would use that to bring the numbers back up, on units still have far greater potential than they are producing. More deer means more opportunity and not every unit has been over taken by human growth and development.

As bad as it has gotten, I no longer care how they do it…….. to the degree I now want them to start closing units entirely…… of course, not all at the same time, but under some sort of logical rotation system.
 
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So I think many are misconstruing Dr. McMullian's comments in the podcasts.

I never herd him say anything about carrying capacity as the reason the bucks "kill off the fawns" or that bucks are even killing fawns, in fact he says it doesn't really make sense that a higher B to D ratio effects fawn production, just that it does. (which leads me to believe they dont fully understand the cause of the correlation, but the correlation definitely exists)

Alot of people have just assumed that is what they are talking about, but I am pretty sure they have not said anything about carrying capacity, in fact I'm pretty sure the theory is if we reduce B to D ratio to get us to carrying capacity sooner we can then have a higher B to D ratio to help maintain the herd, or at the very least have more bucks on the landscape to hunt.
 
Another point I should add. When DR.McMillian and Dr. Larsen did their 5 year study on the fawn survival, on the Monroe Mountain Unit, a decade or so ago, their data was showing a June fawn birthing rate of somewhere close to 100 fawn per 100 does. (Similar to studies done back in the 1950’s.) However….. within 4 to six weeks 30-35% of the fawns were already dead, primarily by predation. These fawns were definately not killed or starved…….by pressure from bucks because they were primarily living of their mother milk and lush summer protein. The starvation period, when bucks could or would be pushing fawns away from food would not occur until the winter…….. well after our fawn/doe counts are done and reported. Whereas, on almost all Units in Utah the ratio is already down to under 60 fawn per hundred doe, before winter ever begins. And that, in the last 30 years, is the sustained annual ratio, and will not grow the population, no matter how good the feed is.
 
elkassassin said:
Another question For BEAVIS?

In Daniels Canyon In The Winter Time After All The Elk Hunts Were Over You Could Always See Some Decent Bulls,And I'm Talkin Several!

The Last Few Years It's Day & Night Difference!

Ya,Still A Few Bulls In There!

But where'd The Size Go?

Where'd The numbers Go?
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The next canyon over.
 
Too Many Bucks On The Landscape Causing Major Problems Ain't Gonna Cut It With Me!

Bucks Taking Up space & Eating What Other Deer Could Be eating!

I Can't wait For The AI Management To Show Up!
 
JakeH said:
So I think many are misconstruing Dr. McMullian's comments in the podcasts.

I never herd him say anything about carrying capacity as the reason the bucks "kill off the fawns" or that bucks are even killing fawns, in fact he says it doesn't really make sense that a higher B to D ratio effects fawn production, just that it does. (which leads me to believe they dont fully understand the cause of the correlation, but the correlation definitely exists)

Alot of people have just assumed that is what they are talking about, but I am pretty sure they have not said anything about carrying capacity, in fact I'm pretty sure the theory is if we reduce B to D ratio to get us to carrying capacity sooner we can then have a higher B to D ratio to help maintain the herd, or at the very least have more bucks on the landscape to hunt.
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I will add another thing, I'm not completely sold on all this yet. But it is interesting information and something to consider when discussing this stuff.

But I do have a "theroy" on how a higher buck to doe ratio could be having a negative effect on fawn production and it has nothing to do with feed for the fawns, or more older bucks.

My theory is that it's not the older bucks that are the problem, it is the yearling bucks that are still hanging around mom (and who also gets shot the most in low buck to doe areas, and who specifically do not get shot in LE units) these young bucks for some reason are competing for mothers attention more so than the young doe's do, so therefore the fawns are being neglected by mother more some how?

Again just a spitball theory I have had while thinking on this topic.
 
JakeH said:
So I think many are misconstruing Dr. McMullian's comments in the podcasts.

I never herd him say anything about carrying capacity as the reason the bucks "kill off the fawns" or that bucks are even killing fawns, in fact he says it doesn't really make sense that a higher B to D ratio effects fawn production, just that it does. (which leads me to believe they dont fully understand the cause of the correlation, but the correlation definitely exists)

Alot of people have just assumed that is what they are talking about, but I am pretty sure they have not said anything about carrying capacity, in fact I'm pretty sure the theory is if we reduce B to D ratio to get us to carrying capacity sooner we can then have a higher B to D ratio to help maintain the herd, or at the very least have more bucks on the landscape to hunt.
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Once again, unless the unit is out of feed at any period, during the year, and there is not enough feed to the whole herd, then not one mouth goes hungry…….. therefore, if you have 50 buck and 100 doe or 25 buck and 100 doe or 12 buck and 100 doe…. under the best of conditions, with zero fawn mortality, you only grow the herd, compounded by 2 fawns per year. Unless carrying capacity, ie: the amount of year round feed can’t support the population the does will produce fawns at a measurable rate.

Having said that, when there is surplus feed you can can’t have too many bucks, but at some point, you can definately have too few bucks. Bucks don’t give birth but does don’t fertilize each other.

So…… if Dr. McMillian isn’t referring to carrying capacity restrains, I would need to have him explain his science to me in greater depth.

But…… again, just my opinion……. worth a Diet Coke or less.
 
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JakeH said:
I will add another thing, I'm not completely sold on all this yet. But it is interesting information and something to consider when discussing this stuff.

But I do have a "theroy" on how a higher buck to doe ratio could be having a negative effect on fawn production and it has nothing to do with feed for the fawns, or more older bucks.

My theory is that it's not the older bucks that are the problem, it is the yearling bucks that are still hanging around mom (and who also gets shot the most in low buck to doe areas, and who specifically do not get shot in LE units) these young bucks for some reason are competing for mothers attention more so than the young doe's do, so therefore the fawns are being neglected by mother more some how?

Again just a spitball theory I have had while thinking on this topic.
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I can’t speak to mule deer because does separate and go off by themselves prior to fawning so it’s hard to observe but your theory is fact, for elk. That’s why you see groups of yearly bulls and yearling cows running in groups, starting about 30 days before the cow elk start to calf in May. I saw two different groups of elk heifers, in groups of 6 and 8 yesterday, on the way to Fish Lake.

It’s quite a thrill to observe Mother Nature to do its thing, in the calving grounds, when the cows cut last years calf’s out of the herd and drive them away. They put the best quarter horse to shame……. slam them with their shoulder and roll them through the dirt…. at times.

Probably you’ve seen them do it Jake…….
 
2lumpy said:
Once again, unless the unit is out of feed at any period, during the year, and there is not enough feed to the whole herd, then not one mouth goes hungry…….. therefore, if you have 50 buck and 100 doe or 25 buck and 100 doe or 12 buck and 100 doe…. under the best of conditions, with zero fawn mortality, you only grow the herd, compounded by 2 fawns per year. Unless carrying capacity, ie: the amount of year round feed can’t support the population the does will produce fawns at a measurable rate.

Having said that, when there is surplus feed you can can’t have too many bucks, but at some point, you can definately have too few bucks. Bucks don’t give birth but does don’t fertilize each other.

So…… if Dr. McMillian isn’t referring to carrying capacity restrains, I would need to have him explain his science to me in greater depth.

But…… again, just my opinion……. worth a Diet Coke or less.
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From the few videos I have watched where he talked about it, he was not referring to anything other than the data they have from a few seperate studys showed that a lower buck to doe ratio resulted in higher fawn yield. He even said in the one podcast that he doesn't understand it, or it doesn't really make sense.

It's not his science, it's his observation of the study, that I'm sure he would tell you they do not fully understand.

2lumpy said:
I can’t speak to mule deer because does separate and go off by themselves prior to fawning so it’s hard to observe but your theory is fact, for elk. That’s why you see groups of yearly bulls and yearling cows running in groups, starting about 30 days before the cow elk start to calf in May. I saw two different groups of elk heifers, in groups of 6 and 8 yesterday, on the way to Fish Lake.

It’s quite a thrill to observe Mother Nature to do its thing, in the calving grounds, when the cows cut last years calf’s out of the herd and drive them away. They put the best quarter horse to shame……. slam them with their shoulder and roll them through the dirt…. at times.

Probably you’ve seen them do it Jake…….
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I suspect the majority of the damage/death comes later in the year as a result of poor body conditions due to some form of neglect caused by the young bucks, and probably the doe's too.

They did say there is a certain weight that a fawn must weigh when they do their capturing in the winter, if the fawns are not at that weight they have a 100% death rate.

Like I said, this is just me thinking outside of the box thinking of what could be a cause to support what the data shows. But I really have no idea at any rate I doubt it has anything to do with mature bucks killing young fawns, or even pushing them out of good feeding areas. Hell 90% of the time the older bucks are completely separated from the doe and fawns.

But you know who isn't? Those pesky teenager bucks that are still running around with mama's milk on his lips. 😂 they ain't stealing food they are stealing tit's. I guess Bess has always been right about them milk on the lips bucks. 🤣😆🤣
 
I'm going to blow everyone's mind.....

B TO D doesn't mean crap. There is always going to be enough Bucks to breed the does.
The only way to grow deer consistently is mild winters and wet summers.
 
Or just more water. It’s my observation that when the cattlemen left, so did the O&M on the old WPA era spring developments.

And its the main reason we have a growing population around me. It’s new ag land so there is reliable water year round.

Talking about the high deserts of course.

And B to D doesn’t matter until the forkies are covering does. It happens here and I think we have a decent ratio.
 
JakeH said:
From the few videos I have watched where he talked about it, he was not referring to anything other than the data they have from a few seperate studys showed that a lower buck to doe ratio resulted in higher fawn yield. He even said in the one podcast that he doesn't understand it, or it doesn't really make sense.
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The study did not find that lower buck:doe ratio "resulted" in higher fawn yield. It found that the two correlated. I'm not picking on you JakeH. So please don't take this as a personal attack. I do, however, fear that most people who hear this think correlation and result are interchangeable and they most certainly are not.

Correlation doesn't dictate a direction of impact/effect. Correlation does not prove causation. Just because two things correlate does not necessarily mean that one causes the other. It would be just as wrong to interpret the correlation as a "result" in the opposite direction and say, "If we have less fawn recruitment, we will have higher buck:doe ratios."
 
Exactly right. Correlation does NOT equal causation.

However, the correlation does give you reason to look at something at lot more closely, if you want to get real answers.

If we don’t care what the answer is because we are just going to keep doing what whiny hunters that have no clue what they are talking about want, then why waste your time investigating further?
 
50 F'N Years & Counting!

Please Do Post All The Improvements In The Deer Herd In Them Last 5+ Decades!

Them Post All The BS Trial & Error During That Same F'N Time Frame That Hasn't Worked & Let Us Know Which List Weighs The Most!

Vanilla said:
Exactly right. Correlation does NOT equal causation.

However, the correlation does give you reason to look at something at lot more closely, if you want to get real answers.

If we don’t care what the answer is because we are just going to keep doing what whiny hunters that have no clue what they are talking about want, then why waste your time investigating further?
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Simpleton said:
The study did not find that lower buck:doe ratio "resulted" in higher fawn yield. It found that the two correlated. I'm not picking on you JakeH. So please don't take this as a personal attack. I do, however, fear that most people who hear this think correlation and result are interchangeable and they most certainly are not.

Correlation doesn't dictate a direction of impact/effect. Correlation does not prove causation. Just because two things correlate does not necessarily mean that one causes the other. It would be just as wrong to interpret the correlation as a "result" in the opposite direction and say, "If we have less fawn recruitment, we will have higher buck:doe ratios."
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You are correct, I'm not all scientificly minded so my ramblings might not always come out the way I intended.

I have said I'm not completely bought into the idea, but it is an interesting finding, and it wouldn't hurt to investigate further.
 
JakeH said:
I have said I'm not completely bought into the idea, but it is an interesting finding, and it wouldn't hurt to investigate further.
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I think this is what almost everybody talking about this is saying just that: let’s learn more! Then you get shouted down by pure uninhibited ignorance. But what are people so afraid of that we might find out?

Or again, we can just cut tags like normal and stick to plan a couple people on here seem so hell bent on sticking to.

The solace I take is there are a good amount of people talking about things we’ve rarely talked about. I’m here for it!

New ideas, that’s what I’m looking for. Not the same old same old a couple will only accept. But I’m done with them anyway. Nobody cares what the loudest ignoramuses are shouting about.
 
Do Something To Increase Deer Numbers Rather Than Killing More Deer For A Start!

You COMPREHEND That?

Vanilla said:
I think this is what almost everybody talking about this is saying just that: let’s learn more! Then you get shouted down by pure uninhibited ignorance. But what are people so afraid of that we might find out?

Or again, we can just cut tags like normal and stick to plan a couple people on here seem so hell bent on sticking to.

The solace I take is there are a good amount of people talking about things we’ve rarely talked about. I’m here for it!

New ideas, that’s what I’m looking for. Not the same old same old a couple will only accept. But I’m done with them anyway. Nobody cares what the loudest ignoramuses are shouting about.
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elkassassin said:
Do Something To Increase Deer Numbers Rather Than Killing More Deer For A Start!

You COMPREHEND That?
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OK Bess, what do you propose? Don't go on a rant telling us how what we are doing now is wrong, give us an actual management strategy that you feel would grow the deer herd.

I see you complaining a lot, but I can't say I've ever seen you present management strategy that is a solution.
 
The Proposal I Made I'm Guessing Nobody Liked?

You Miss It JakeH?


I Guess you Don't Like Anybody Complaining?

Are We Gonna Sit On Our Asses & Do More STUPID SSHHITT That Still Hasn't Worked?



JakeH said:
OK Bess, what do you propose? Don't go on a rant telling us how what we are doing now is wrong, give us an actual management strategy that you feel would grow the deer herd.

I see you complaining a lot, but I can't say I've ever seen you present management strategy that is a solution.
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elkassassin said:
The Proposal I Made I'm Guessing Nobody Liked?

You Miss It JakeH?


I Guess you Don't Like Anybody Complaining?

Are We Gonna Sit On Our Asses & Do More STUPID SSHHITT That Still Hasn't Worked?
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Hell right wasn't a legitimate proposal, mostly just a bunch of ranting.

Give us a legitimate management practice that could be implemented. I tried this once before with the Henry's unit and it turned out the DWR had already did what you wanted. (Cut tags)

So what's an idea that you have that would grow the deer herd?

And nothing wrong with complaining, but when it's all you do with out proposing anything you think would help it gets old.
 
I've Mentioned The Proposal That's Perty Much The Same For Decades Now!

None Of The F'N OPPORTUNISTS Like It!

There Is Something In It For Everybody!

The Part They Can't Stand Is Building A Few Units With Trophy Quality Bucks!

Because The Years It Would Take To Achieve They'd Wanna F'N Destroy It With Their GREEDY Ways In Short Order!

There'd Still Be PISSCUTTER Hunts!

There's Still Be MOTL Hunts!

The'red Still Be LE Hunts For The Guys & Gals Invested In Our Current Points System!

When The Opportunists Destroy Their Units,They're Done,They Are NOT Gonna Destroy The Other Hunts & If They Don't F'N Like It TOUGH TITTY!

This Refresh Your Mind At All JakeH?














JakeH said:
OK Bess, what do you propose? Don't go on a rant telling us how what we are doing now is wrong, give us an actual management strategy that you feel would grow the deer herd.

I see you complaining a lot, but I can't say I've ever seen you present management strategy that is a solution.
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You Need To Pay More Attention JakeH!

Give Me A Few Minutes & I Shall Reply!

JakeH said:
Hell right wasn't a legitimate proposal, mostly just a bunch of ranting.

Give us a legitimate management practice that could be implemented. I tried this once before with the Henry's unit and it turned out the DWR had already did what you wanted. (Cut tags)

So what's an idea that you have that would grow the deer herd?

And nothing wrong with complaining, but when it's all you do with out proposing anything you think would help it gets old.
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This Wasn't Too Long Ago JakeH,Did You Miss It?

It Was Originally Kinda Directed At Nilly,I'm Not Directing It At Just Nilly This Time But His Name Does Appear In It & I'm Not Editing It!


OK Niller!

Here's The Deal!

I Don't Wanna Hear You BAWLING!

So There's Something In It For Everybody!

First We Need You On The Wildlife Board!

This Can Be Directed At Anybody That Wants To Man The F-Up & Make Some Good Changes!

You'll Be The SMARTEST Person/People On The Board!

You Know How To Deal With All The Legal BULLSSHITT That Some Of Us Others Don't Know As Well As You Do!

Here's My Proposal:

There's Gonna Be Some New Hunts!

And There's Gonna Be Some Of The Existing Units Used For These New Hunts!

The First New Hunt Will Be The ANYTHING GOES Hunt!

It Will Be Tried On The Manti Unit & 2 Other Units Of Your Choice,3 Units Total!

There Will Be At A Minimum DOUBLE THE TAGS Or UN-LIMITED Tags On Them 3 Units,That Way You & Brock Are Happy!

These New Hunts Will Be On a 10 Year Study/Trial & When You Pick This Hunt This Is The Only 3 Units You Can Hunt Deer On In That 10 Year Period!

If Your Units Are Shot Out In 2 Years TOUGH TITTY!

You Ain't Moving Camp!

The 2nd New Hunt Will Be A HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunt!

All Limited Entry Units Will Be Thrown In To A Hat With Public Attending To Make Sure It Was Legit & Fair!

3 LE Units Drawn!

Them 3 Units Are For The HUNT OF A LIFETIME Only!

The Rest Of The LE Units Stay As STATUS QUO For The Guys That Like Them Units & Have A Bunch Of Points Built Up!

Yup!

3 GENERAL Units & 3 LE Units Gonna Get Some Different Attention!

Once You Try & Draw For Either One Of These Hunts You're Locked Forever How Long It Takes To Draw,YOU ARE NOT JUMPING Ship!

And If You Don't Like This Stay With The Other General Or LE Hunts Already In Place!

The HUNT OF A LIFETIME Units Will Be Managed For Top Notch Quality Bucks & You're Not Gonna Add Tags Just Because Some F'N OPPORTUNISTS Want To Destroy Them!

That's What The ANYTHING GOES HUNTS Are For!

You & Brock Can Manage Them 3 Units Any F'N Way You Want To I Don't Care How You Do It!

DON'T COME A BAWLING Though!

The 3 HUNT OF A LIFETIME UNITS WILL BE MANAGED FOR QUALITY BUCKS,If That Means Only So Many Tags Can Be Issued/Drawn That's How It Is!

Fine If This Isn't Your Cup Of Tea Go Hunt Manti & The Other 2 Units!

10 Years Should Be Plenty Of Time On ANYTHING GOES Hunts To Improve Them With You & Brocks New Management Plan!

If You & Brocks New Management Plan Happens To Prove Some Kind Of A Miracle On The 3 ANYTHING GOES Units After That 10 Year Period You Can Make recommendations For More Hunts Just Like Them!

You'll be Applying For This New HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunt With Zero Points,You're Not Gonna Be Using Old Points For A New Hunt!

That Or We'll Just Say PISS On The Points & Have A Random Draw!

You See there Niller!

You Get You & Brocks Opportunity & Others Get Theirs!

The HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunts Will Be Limited & Them Hunts Ain't For Everybody!

The ANYTHING GOES Hunts Are For The OPPORTUNISTS That Wanna Hunt Every Year!

Thought I'd wait Till The Last Here Before I Ruffled Feathers Again!

To Apply For The HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunts It'll Cost You 2500.00 If You Draw!

If You Don't Like That Go Hunt With Niller & The Boys!

The UDWR Still Needs Their Money,Hence Fewer Tags On THE HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunts We Wanna Keep The DWR Happy So You're Gonna Pay To Play!

The Good News Is If You Don't Like It You Can Go Hunt With Brock & Niller!

Everybody Gives A Little & There's Still Something For Everybody!

Please Reply Back With A Blood Pressure Reading!

Hope You're Having A GREAT Day Niller!

Here's The Deal!

I Don't Wanna Hear You BAWLING!

So There's Something In It For Everybody!

First We Need You On The Wildlife Board!

You'll Be The SMARTEST Person On The Board!

You Know How To Deal With All The Legal BULLSSHITT That Some Of Us Others Don't Know As Well As You Do!
 
All his “management” ideas have to do with tag allocations. Odd.

Still trying to increase deer by managing people. Maybe it will work the thousandth time???
 
Hey Nilly!

Did you Miss The Part Where I Said There's Something For Everybody?

Even For You & Your PISSCUTTER Tag!

You Can Manage Your DOUBLE THE TAG UNITS AS YOU F'N PLEASE!

Vanilla said:
All his “management” ideas have to do with tag allocations. Odd.

Still trying to increase deer by managing people. Maybe it will work the thousandth time???
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
This Wasn't Too Long Ago JakeH,Did You Miss It?

It Was Originally Kinda Directed At Nilly,I'm Not Directing It At Just Nilly This Time But His Name Does Appear In It & I'm Not Editing It!


OK Niller!

Here's The Deal!

I Don't Wanna Hear You BAWLING!

So There's Something In It For Everybody!

First We Need You On The Wildlife Board!

This Can Be Directed At Anybody That Wants To Man The F-Up & Make Some Good Changes!

You'll Be The SMARTEST Person/People On The Board!

You Know How To Deal With All The Legal BULLSSHITT That Some Of Us Others Don't Know As Well As You Do!

Here's My Proposal:

There's Gonna Be Some New Hunts!

And There's Gonna Be Some Of The Existing Units Used For These New Hunts!

The First New Hunt Will Be The ANYTHING GOES Hunt!

It Will Be Tried On The Manti Unit & 2 Other Units Of Your Choice,3 Units Total!

There Will Be At A Minimum DOUBLE THE TAGS Or UN-LIMITED Tags On Them 3 Units,That Way You & Brock Are Happy!

These New Hunts Will Be On a 10 Year Study/Trial & When You Pick This Hunt This Is The Only 3 Units You Can Hunt Deer On In That 10 Year Period!

If Your Units Are Shot Out In 2 Years TOUGH TITTY!

You Ain't Moving Camp!

The 2nd New Hunt Will Be A HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunt!

All Limited Entry Units Will Be Thrown In To A Hat With Public Attending To Make Sure It Was Legit & Fair!

3 LE Units Drawn!

Them 3 Units Are For The HUNT OF A LIFETIME Only!

The Rest Of The LE Units Stay As STATUS QUO For The Guys That Like Them Units & Have A Bunch Of Points Built Up!

Yup!

3 GENERAL Units & 3 LE Units Gonna Get Some Different Attention!

Once You Try & Draw For Either One Of These Hunts You're Locked Forever How Long It Takes To Draw,YOU ARE NOT JUMPING Ship!

And If You Don't Like This Stay With The Other General Or LE Hunts Already In Place!

The HUNT OF A LIFETIME Units Will Be Managed For Top Notch Quality Bucks & You're Not Gonna Add Tags Just Because Some F'N OPPORTUNISTS Want To Destroy Them!

That's What The ANYTHING GOES HUNTS Are For!

You & Brock Can Manage Them 3 Units Any F'N Way You Want To I Don't Care How You Do It!

DON'T COME A BAWLING Though!

The 3 HUNT OF A LIFETIME UNITS WILL BE MANAGED FOR QUALITY BUCKS,If That Means Only So Many Tags Can Be Issued/Drawn That's How It Is!

Fine If This Isn't Your Cup Of Tea Go Hunt Manti & The Other 2 Units!

10 Years Should Be Plenty Of Time On ANYTHING GOES Hunts To Improve Them With You & Brocks New Management Plan!

If You & Brocks New Management Plan Happens To Prove Some Kind Of A Miracle On The 3 ANYTHING GOES Units After That 10 Year Period You Can Make recommendations For More Hunts Just Like Them!

You'll be Applying For This New HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunt With Zero Points,You're Not Gonna Be Using Old Points For A New Hunt!

That Or We'll Just Say PISS On The Points & Have A Random Draw!

You See there Niller!

You Get You & Brocks Opportunity & Others Get Theirs!

The HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunts Will Be Limited & Them Hunts Ain't For Everybody!

The ANYTHING GOES Hunts Are For The OPPORTUNISTS That Wanna Hunt Every Year!

Thought I'd wait Till The Last Here Before I Ruffled Feathers Again!

To Apply For The HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunts It'll Cost You 2500.00 If You Draw!

If You Don't Like That Go Hunt With Niller & The Boys!

The UDWR Still Needs Their Money,Hence Fewer Tags On THE HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunts We Wanna Keep The DWR Happy So You're Gonna Pay To Play!

The Good News Is If You Don't Like It You Can Go Hunt With Brock & Niller!

Everybody Gives A Little & There's Still Something For Everybody!

Please Reply Back With A Blood Pressure Reading!

Hope You're Having A GREAT Day Niller!

Here's The Deal!

I Don't Wanna Hear You BAWLING!

So There's Something In It For Everybody!

First We Need You On The Wildlife Board!

You'll Be The SMARTEST Person On The Board!

You Know How To Deal With All The Legal BULLSSHITT That Some Of Us Others Don't Know As Well As You Do!
Click to expand...
"$$$and greed"
 
All about tag allocations.

Not one statement about how to actually increase mule deer. Let that sink in loud and clear for everyone. The single biggest whiner on the internet’s “management” plan for mule deer is 100% around tag allocations.

I’m sure it will with this time even though it never has before. But THIS has got to be the time it happens. Were pulling for ya snowfla…I mean, Bessy!
 
You Don't Wanna Increase Numbers Of Deer!

Pay Attention Just Once In Your F'N Life!

The Plan Recommends DOUBLING Your F'N Precious Tags Or Even Going UN-F'N-LIMITED!

Like I Said!

The F'N OPOR-F'N-TUNISTS Are Gonna BAWL & Here The Come Already!

SUCK That TREBLE Hook Down That Brock Set In Front Of Your Nose & CHOMP On It!







Vanilla said:
All about tag allocations.

Not one statement about how to actually increase mule deer. Let that sink in loud and clear for everyone. The single biggest whiner on the internet’s “management” plan for mule deer is 100% around tag allocations.

I’m sure it will with this time even though it never has before. But THIS has got to be the time it happens. Were pulling for ya snowfla…I mean, Bessy!
Click to expand...
 
KEEP POUNDIN YOUR PISSCUTTERS Nilly!

You're Still Included In The Plan!

DOUBLE THEM TAGS,JUST DOUBLE THEM!

F'That!

Make It UN'F'N-LIMITED On Your Favorite Unit!
 
That 2500.00 Figure PISS You OFF?

Because Tags Won't Be Over-Sold On That Hunt/Units The DWR Still Needs to Make Bank!

I'll GUARAN-DAMN-TEE You The 2500.00 Wouldn't Bother too Many Hunters Wanting A Chance At Some Quality Bucks!

There's still Something In The Plan For You!

You're Not Left Out!





elkhunter81 said:
"$$$and greed"
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
This Wasn't Too Long Ago JakeH,Did You Miss It?

It Was Originally Kinda Directed At Nilly,I'm Not Directing It At Just Nilly This Time But His Name Does Appear In It & I'm Not Editing It!


OK Niller!

Here's The Deal!

I Don't Wanna Hear You BAWLING!

So There's Something In It For Everybody!

First We Need You On The Wildlife Board!

This Can Be Directed At Anybody That Wants To Man The F-Up & Make Some Good Changes!

You'll Be The SMARTEST Person/People On The Board!

You Know How To Deal With All The Legal BULLSSHITT That Some Of Us Others Don't Know As Well As You Do!

Here's My Proposal:

There's Gonna Be Some New Hunts!

And There's Gonna Be Some Of The Existing Units Used For These New Hunts!

The First New Hunt Will Be The ANYTHING GOES Hunt!

It Will Be Tried On The Manti Unit & 2 Other Units Of Your Choice,3 Units Total!

There Will Be At A Minimum DOUBLE THE TAGS Or UN-LIMITED Tags On Them 3 Units,That Way You & Brock Are Happy!

These New Hunts Will Be On a 10 Year Study/Trial & When You Pick This Hunt This Is The Only 3 Units You Can Hunt Deer On In That 10 Year Period!

If Your Units Are Shot Out In 2 Years TOUGH TITTY!

You Ain't Moving Camp!

The 2nd New Hunt Will Be A HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunt!

All Limited Entry Units Will Be Thrown In To A Hat With Public Attending To Make Sure It Was Legit & Fair!

3 LE Units Drawn!

Them 3 Units Are For The HUNT OF A LIFETIME Only!

The Rest Of The LE Units Stay As STATUS QUO For The Guys That Like Them Units & Have A Bunch Of Points Built Up!

Yup!

3 GENERAL Units & 3 LE Units Gonna Get Some Different Attention!

Once You Try & Draw For Either One Of These Hunts You're Locked Forever How Long It Takes To Draw,YOU ARE NOT JUMPING Ship!

And If You Don't Like This Stay With The Other General Or LE Hunts Already In Place!

The HUNT OF A LIFETIME Units Will Be Managed For Top Notch Quality Bucks & You're Not Gonna Add Tags Just Because Some F'N OPPORTUNISTS Want To Destroy Them!

That's What The ANYTHING GOES HUNTS Are For!

You & Brock Can Manage Them 3 Units Any F'N Way You Want To I Don't Care How You Do It!

DON'T COME A BAWLING Though!

The 3 HUNT OF A LIFETIME UNITS WILL BE MANAGED FOR QUALITY BUCKS,If That Means Only So Many Tags Can Be Issued/Drawn That's How It Is!

Fine If This Isn't Your Cup Of Tea Go Hunt Manti & The Other 2 Units!

10 Years Should Be Plenty Of Time On ANYTHING GOES Hunts To Improve Them With You & Brocks New Management Plan!

If You & Brocks New Management Plan Happens To Prove Some Kind Of A Miracle On The 3 ANYTHING GOES Units After That 10 Year Period You Can Make recommendations For More Hunts Just Like Them!

You'll be Applying For This New HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunt With Zero Points,You're Not Gonna Be Using Old Points For A New Hunt!

That Or We'll Just Say PISS On The Points & Have A Random Draw!

You See there Niller!

You Get You & Brocks Opportunity & Others Get Theirs!

The HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunts Will Be Limited & Them Hunts Ain't For Everybody!

The ANYTHING GOES Hunts Are For The OPPORTUNISTS That Wanna Hunt Every Year!

Thought I'd wait Till The Last Here Before I Ruffled Feathers Again!

To Apply For The HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunts It'll Cost You 2500.00 If You Draw!

If You Don't Like That Go Hunt With Niller & The Boys!

The UDWR Still Needs Their Money,Hence Fewer Tags On THE HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunts We Wanna Keep The DWR Happy So You're Gonna Pay To Play!

The Good News Is If You Don't Like It You Can Go Hunt With Brock & Niller!

Everybody Gives A Little & There's Still Something For Everybody!

Please Reply Back With A Blood Pressure Reading!

Hope You're Having A GREAT Day Niller!

Here's The Deal!

I Don't Wanna Hear You BAWLING!

So There's Something In It For Everybody!

First We Need You On The Wildlife Board!

You'll Be The SMARTEST Person On The Board!

You Know How To Deal With All The Legal BULLSSHITT That Some Of Us Others Don't Know As Well As You Do!
Click to expand...
Seems appropriate, Again.
Screenshot_20240412_203017_Chrome.jpg
 
You Boys Would Be BAWLING Like Babies When Post Season Rolled Around & There Were Some Up-coming Quality Bucks Left For The Following Years Hunt!

TOUGH TITTY!
 
“Hunting Big Game Continuously & Overlapped From Mid-August through January/February with No Relaxation Time for the Deer Herd No Longer Happens”

The biologists kept saying we need more fat and healthier deer in the spring, summer, winter and fall over and over and over again!!!

I agree!!! How much fat do they burn being hunted and chased around continuously from August to February with no relaxation time?
 
Last edited:
The quote says big game not deer. I believe there are cow hunts in February.

“Legal Rifles will only Have Scopes with a Maximum Magnification of 4 Power!”

Implementing this will result in a few more mature bucks or almost mature bucks surviving until the following hunting season. Nobody wants that, right?
 
“Several Roads & Trails will Be Flat Ass Closed,You Get Caught You'll Pay Dearly,Get Your Boots Oiled up!”

Another example of a way to help keep fat on deer resulting in healthier does and fawns
 
I'll try to put up one a day, if I can. But none of them manage their deer or keep stats the same way. This is Wyoming. All they could give me, without a lot of work and expense were the yearly totals.
Wyoming:
1945----9,028---------1971---68,809----------1997---26,697
1946---12,975---------1972---57,108----------1998---29,990
1947---18,752---------1973---56,028----------1999---39,652
1948---21,019---------1974---49,297----------2000---43,544
1949---18,116---------1975---61,428----------2001---38,308
1950---NA-------------1976---64,644----------2002---37,580
1951---NA-------------1977---68,638----------2003---35,382
1952---40,433---------1978---59,605----------2004---36,733
1953---46,056---------1979---53,791----------2005---35,266
1954---50,547---------1980---54,086----------2006---40,067
1955---51,128---------1981---58,805----------2007---41,207
1956---38,185---------1982---66,475----------2008---36,211
1957---64,807---------1983---64,116----------2009---38,067
1958---62,456---------1984---52,492----------2010---34,570
1959---60,175---------1985---52,216----------2011---28,112
1960---77,298---------1986---50,293----------2012---27,718
1961---84,677---------1987---47,781----------2013---25,410
1962---88,712---------1988---53,482----------2014---26,086
1963---71,500---------1989---60,416----------2015---28,316
1964---68,541---------1990---68,099----------2016---31,237
1965---63,606---------1991---81,277----------2017---27,134
1966---64,443---------1992---87,010-----------2018---26,141
1967---71,862---------1993---58,324-----------2019---24,178
1968---82,825---------1994---36,011-----------2020---21,370
1969---93,844---------1995---31,935-----------2021---18,944
1970---68,809---------1996---29,487-----------2022---17,785
-------------------------------------------------- 2023---13,570
 
Last edited:
elkassassin said:
50 F'N Years & Counting!

Please Do Post All The Improvements In The Deer Herd In Them Last 5+ Decades!

Them Post All The BS Trial & Error During That Same F'N Time Frame That Hasn't Worked & Let Us Know Which List Weighs The Most!
Click to expand...
Over the last 50 years, the DWR has cut deer hunting tags, that has been the DWR deer management.

elkassassin said:
The Proposal I Made I'm Guessing Nobody Liked?

I Guess you Don't Like Anybody Complaining?

Are We Gonna Sit On Our Asses & Do More STUPID SSHHITT That Still Hasn't Worked?
Click to expand...

Like cut more deer tags?

elkassassin said:
Nope!

There's Gonna Be Some Management For Quality Mule Deer Which You Can't Stand!

If You Don't Like It You Can Carry On With Your STATUS-QUO BS Management,It'll Still Be Here!
Click to expand...

That would mean cut more tags.
 
elkassassin said:
This Wasn't Too Long Ago JakeH,Did You Miss It?

It Was Originally Kinda Directed At Nilly,I'm Not Directing It At Just Nilly This Time But His Name Does Appear In It & I'm Not Editing It!


OK Niller!

Here's The Deal!

I Don't Wanna Hear You BAWLING!

So There's Something In It For Everybody!

First We Need You On The Wildlife Board!

This Can Be Directed At Anybody That Wants To Man The F-Up & Make Some Good Changes!

You'll Be The SMARTEST Person/People On The Board!

You Know How To Deal With All The Legal BULLSSHITT That Some Of Us Others Don't Know As Well As You Do!

Here's My Proposal:

There's Gonna Be Some New Hunts!

And There's Gonna Be Some Of The Existing Units Used For These New Hunts!

The First New Hunt Will Be The ANYTHING GOES Hunt!

It Will Be Tried On The Manti Unit & 2 Other Units Of Your Choice,3 Units Total!

There Will Be At A Minimum DOUBLE THE TAGS Or UN-LIMITED Tags On Them 3 Units,That Way You & Brock Are Happy!

These New Hunts Will Be On a 10 Year Study/Trial & When You Pick This Hunt This Is The Only 3 Units You Can Hunt Deer On In That 10 Year Period!

If Your Units Are Shot Out In 2 Years TOUGH TITTY!

You Ain't Moving Camp!

The 2nd New Hunt Will Be A HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunt!

All Limited Entry Units Will Be Thrown In To A Hat With Public Attending To Make Sure It Was Legit & Fair!

3 LE Units Drawn!

Them 3 Units Are For The HUNT OF A LIFETIME Only!

The Rest Of The LE Units Stay As STATUS QUO For The Guys That Like Them Units & Have A Bunch Of Points Built Up!

Yup!

3 GENERAL Units & 3 LE Units Gonna Get Some Different Attention!

Once You Try & Draw For Either One Of These Hunts You're Locked Forever How Long It Takes To Draw,YOU ARE NOT JUMPING Ship!

And If You Don't Like This Stay With The Other General Or LE Hunts Already In Place!

The HUNT OF A LIFETIME Units Will Be Managed For Top Notch Quality Bucks & You're Not Gonna Add Tags Just Because Some F'N OPPORTUNISTS Want To Destroy Them!

That's What The ANYTHING GOES HUNTS Are For!

You & Brock Can Manage Them 3 Units Any F'N Way You Want To I Don't Care How You Do It!

DON'T COME A BAWLING Though!

The 3 HUNT OF A LIFETIME UNITS WILL BE MANAGED FOR QUALITY BUCKS,If That Means Only So Many Tags Can Be Issued/Drawn That's How It Is!

Fine If This Isn't Your Cup Of Tea Go Hunt Manti & The Other 2 Units!

10 Years Should Be Plenty Of Time On ANYTHING GOES Hunts To Improve Them With You & Brocks New Management Plan!

If You & Brocks New Management Plan Happens To Prove Some Kind Of A Miracle On The 3 ANYTHING GOES Units After That 10 Year Period You Can Make recommendations For More Hunts Just Like Them!

You'll be Applying For This New HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunt With Zero Points,You're Not Gonna Be Using Old Points For A New Hunt!

That Or We'll Just Say PISS On The Points & Have A Random Draw!

You See there Niller!

You Get You & Brocks Opportunity & Others Get Theirs!

The HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunts Will Be Limited & Them Hunts Ain't For Everybody!

The ANYTHING GOES Hunts Are For The OPPORTUNISTS That Wanna Hunt Every Year!

Thought I'd wait Till The Last Here Before I Ruffled Feathers Again!

To Apply For The HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunts It'll Cost You 2500.00 If You Draw!

If You Don't Like That Go Hunt With Niller & The Boys!

The UDWR Still Needs Their Money,Hence Fewer Tags On THE HUNT OF A LIFETIME Hunts We Wanna Keep The DWR Happy So You're Gonna Pay To Play!

The Good News Is If You Don't Like It You Can Go Hunt With Brock & Niller!

Everybody Gives A Little & There's Still Something For Everybody!

Please Reply Back With A Blood Pressure Reading!

Hope You're Having A GREAT Day Niller!

Here's The Deal!

I Don't Wanna Hear You BAWLING!

So There's Something In It For Everybody!

First We Need You On The Wildlife Board!

You'll Be The SMARTEST Person On The Board!

You Know How To Deal With All The Legal BULLSSHITT That Some Of Us Others Don't Know As Well As You Do!
Click to expand...
OK Bess, you have a proposal, quick question how will this increase the deer herds?

Also on your "hunt of a lifetime" hunts how many tags are we talking about? And is this going to increase the overall population of the herds in those units? If so how? You say 10 years, let's say the Henry's is one of your units, there are roughly 1500 deer on the unit, management objectives calls for 3000 (I'm spitballing here I can't remember the actual numbers, but let's say currently we are half of objective) how many deer will be on the unit after your 10 year trial run?
 
Have You Noticed Me Suggesting For Decades We Need to Do Smart Things To Increase Deer Numbers In The Last Couple Of Decades?

Nobody wants To Do It I Guess?

The Hunt Of A Lifetime Tags Would Be Limited & Them Units Would Be Managed Properly UN-F'N-LIKE What We've Seen With The Deer Management In This State For 50+ years!

The Number Of Tags Would Be Determined On How Many We Could Issue & Still Keep The Quality Of The Following Years Hunt QUALITY!

These 3 Units Are Not For Any Of You OPPORTUNISTS That Wanna Hunt Your PISSCUTTERS Every Year!

Them Same Opportunities Will Still Be STATUS QUO & You,Nilly,notdon (Just To Name A Couple!) Can Manage Them Other 3 Units You Get To Manage Any Way You Want To!

If You POUND Them Out Within A Year Or Two I Don't Care!

BUT DON'T COME A BAWLING!

If The Unit Will Easily Support 3,000 Head Of Deer We Need To Keep The Numbers Of Deer Up Where They Should Be!

If The Units Get To Where They Are Doing Well A Few More Quality Tags Would Be Issued!

But They Will Be Managed For Quality Un-like What's Been Going On In This State!

Like I Said This Ain't For Everybody!

Somebody Up Above Already BAWLED About The 2500.00 It'll Cost You To Hunt Them Units!

As Even Hossy Has Mentioned Over The Years:The DWR Still Needs To Make Bank!

A Question For The OPPORTUNISTS:

What Brings Money In For The SFW,Mule Deer Foundation & Other Organizations?

HINT: It's Not PISSCUTTER Hunts!

But Don't Worry,Nobody Would Be Horning In On Your PISSCUTTER Hunts!

You'd Still Have Your 3 New Units You Can Manage Anyway You Want To!

The Rest Of The State Could Stay The PISS POOR Way It Is!

There's Something For Everybody!

I'd Add One More Thing To HELL-F'N-RIGHT That's Already On It:

If A POACHER Tries His Luck At Poaching On Any Of The 3 Hunt Of A Lifetime Units He/She Will Lose All Hunting Rights In All 50 States For Life,They Will Lose Their Vehicle,Their S X S,All Their Guns Of Any Kind,They Won't Need Them Because It Won't Be Legal To Own Any Of Them,A 1,000,000.00 Dollar Fine On The First Offense!

Like I've Said Many A times JakeH!

It's A Good Thing These Opportunists Above Ain't A Farmers Or Ranchers,They'd Be Out Of A Job In One Year!









JakeH said:
OK Bess, you have a proposal, quick question how will this increase the deer herds?

Also on your "hunt of a lifetime" hunts how many tags are we talking about? And is this going to increase the overall population of the herds in those units? If so how? You say 10 years, let's say the Henry's is one of your units, there are roughly 1500 deer on the unit, management objectives calls for 3000 (I'm spitballing here I can't remember the actual numbers, but let's say currently we are half of objective) how many deer will be on the unit after your 10 year trial run?
Click to expand...
 
Tag numbers. That’s the only “management” strategy. Always has been, always will be.

I’m sure eventually it will work. It’s got to!

Or, we can start actually managing mule deer instead of people. It’s a choice, and I choose mule deer. Some here will insist we stick to people and then they can continue to come to the internet and say “I told you so!!!” even if it is their own pissing and moaning causing it.
 
I like passing MOTL bucks. I like having a tag in my pocket to pass MOTL bucks. Give me more tags more frequently and I’ll pass more MOTL bucks like this one I passed last year.

Wonder if ol bessy has ever considered that giving guys more frequent hunting opportunities would lead to less pisscutters being dumped.

IMG_0297.png
IMG_0693.png


Mostly just wanted to show some picture evidence that I do in fact hunt for myself 😂.

I like Bess’s management proposal. It’s very well thought out from a one dimensional perspective.
 
elkfromabove said:
I'll try to put up one a day, if I can. But none of them manage their deer or keep stats the same way. This is Wyoming. All they could give me, without a lot of work and expense were the yearly totals.
Wyoming:
1945----9,028---------1971---68,809----------1997---26,697
1946---12,975---------1972---57,108----------1998---29,990
1947---18,752---------1973---56,028----------1999---39,652
1948---21,019---------1974---49,297----------2000---43,544
1949---18,116---------1975---61,428----------2001---38,308
1950---NA-------------1976---64,644----------2002---37,580
1951---NA-------------1977---68,638----------2003---35,382
1952---40,433---------1978---59,605----------2004---36,733
1953---46,056---------1979---53,791----------2005---35,266
1954---50,547---------1980---54,086----------2006---40,067
1955---51,128---------1981---58,805----------2007---41,207
1956---38,185---------1982---66,475----------2008---36,211
1957---64,807---------1983---64,116----------2009---38,067
1958---62,456---------1984---52,492----------2010---34,570
1959---60,175---------1985---52,216----------2011---28,112
1960---77,298---------1986---50,293----------2012---27,718
1961---84,677---------1987---47,781----------2013---25,410
1962---88,712---------1988---53,482----------2014---26,086
1963---71,500---------1989---60,416----------2015---28,316
1964---68,541---------1990---68,099----------2016---31,237
1965---63,606---------1991---81,277----------2017---27,134
1966---64,443---------1992---87,010-----------2018---26,141
1967---71,862---------1993---58,324-----------2019---24,178
1968---82,825---------1994---36,011-----------2020---21,370
1969---93,844---------1995---31,935-----------2021---18,944
1970---68,809---------1996---29,487-----------2022---17,785
-------------------------------------------------- 2023---13,570
Click to expand...
Looks like a pretty similar trend as Utah. I wonder what could cause that kind of correlation across two states with very different management?? Weather perhaps?
 
elkassassin said:
Have You Noticed Me Suggesting For Decades We Need to Do Smart Things To Increase Deer Numbers In The Last Couple Of Decades?

Nobody wants To Do It I Guess?

The Hunt Of A Lifetime Tags Would Be Limited & Them Units Would Be Managed Properly UN-F'N-LIKE What We've Seen With The Deer Management In This State For 50+ years!

The Number Of Tags Would Be Determined On How Many We Could Issue & Still Keep The Quality Of The Following Years Hunt QUALITY!

These 3 Units Are Not For Any Of You OPPORTUNISTS That Wanna Hunt Your PISSCUTTERS Every Year!

Them Same Opportunities Will Still Be STATUS QUO & You,Nilly,notdon (Just To Name A Couple!) Can Manage Them Other 3 Units You Get To Manage Any Way You Want To!

If You POUND Them Out Within A Year Or Two I Don't Care!

BUT DON'T COME A BAWLING!

If The Unit Will Easily Support 3,000 Head Of Deer We Need To Keep The Numbers Of Deer Up Where They Should Be!

If The Units Get To Where They Are Doing Well A Few More Quality Tags Would Be Issued!

But They Will Be Managed For Quality Un-like What's Been Going On In This State!

Like I Said This Ain't For Everybody!

Somebody Up Above Already BAWLED About The 2500.00 It'll Cost You To Hunt Them Units!

As Even Hossy Has Mentioned Over The Years:The DWR Still Needs To Make Bank!

A Question For The OPPORTUNISTS:

What Brings Money In For The SFW,Mule Deer Foundation & Other Organizations?

HINT: It's Not PISSCUTTER Hunts!

But Don't Worry,Nobody Would Be Horning In On Your PISSCUTTER Hunts!

You'd Still Have Your 3 New Units You Can Manage Anyway You Want To!

The Rest Of The State Could Stay The PISS POOR Way It Is!

There's Something For Everybody!

I'd Add One More Thing To HELL-F'N-RIGHT That's Already On It:

If A POACHER Tries His Luck At Poaching On Any Of The 3 Hunt Of A Lifetime Units He/She Will Lose All Hunting Rights In All 50 States For Life,They Will Lose Their Vehicle,Their S X S,All Their Guns Of Any Kind,They Won't Need Them Because It Won't Be Legal To Own Any Of Them,A 1,000,000.00 Dollar Fine On The First Offense!

Like I've Said Many A times JakeH!

It's A Good Thing These Opportunists Above Ain't A Farmers Or Ranchers,They'd Be Out Of A Job In One Year!
Click to expand...
No doubt your units would grow some big bucks. I don't think it's going to grow the deer herd much, at least not without some additional help. Definitely isn't going to have many people getting tags. So I guess tag cuts continues to be the cure all, we just haven't cut enough of them.

But hell some people think we are over hunting Antelope Island, and killing all the quality off of it. (Nevermind the fact the largest buck to ever come off their was killed last year) so this really doesn't surprise me.

Ohh and how many bulls does the farmer/rancher need to keep in his herd to service all his cows? I'm not sure that argument is as well thought out as you think it is.

Hey Bess, did you actually watch the Wildlife Board work session from the other day?
 
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Cam@strawberry said:
Wonder if ol bessy has ever considered that . . .
Click to expand...

The answer to this question, no matter what follows, is no. No, he has not considered that.

JakeH said:
Hey Bess, did you actually watch the Wildlife Board work session from the other day?
Click to expand...

Also no. The answer is always no. This dude doesn’t even know there is a multi-season hunt on the Wasatch!

But we’ll fix the deer herd with tag numbers. By golly, it’s bound to work eventually!
 
elkfromabove said:
I'll try to put up one a day, if I can. But none of them manage their deer or keep stats the same way. This is Wyoming. All they could give me, without a lot of work and expense were the yearly totals.
Wyoming:
1945----9,028---------1971---68,809----------1997---26,697
1946---12,975---------1972---57,108----------1998---29,990
1947---18,752---------1973---56,028----------1999---39,652
1948---21,019---------1974---49,297----------2000---43,544
1949---18,116---------1975---61,428----------2001---38,308
1950---NA-------------1976---64,644----------2002---37,580
1951---NA-------------1977---68,638----------2003---35,382
1952---40,433---------1978---59,605----------2004---36,733
1953---46,056---------1979---53,791----------2005---35,266
1954---50,547---------1980---54,086----------2006---40,067
1955---51,128---------1981---58,805----------2007---41,207
1956---38,185---------1982---66,475----------2008---36,211
1957---64,807---------1983---64,116----------2009---38,067
1958---62,456---------1984---52,492----------2010---34,570
1959---60,175---------1985---52,216----------2011---28,112
1960---77,298---------1986---50,293----------2012---27,718
1961---84,677---------1987---47,781----------2013---25,410
1962---88,712---------1988---53,482----------2014---26,086
1963---71,500---------1989---60,416----------2015---28,316
1964---68,541---------1990---68,099----------2016---31,237
1965---63,606---------1991---81,277----------2017---27,134
1966---64,443---------1992---87,010-----------2018---26,141
1967---71,862---------1993---58,324-----------2019---24,178
1968---82,825---------1994---36,011-----------2020---21,370
1969---93,844---------1995---31,935-----------2021---18,944
1970---68,809---------1996---29,487-----------2022---17,785
-------------------------------------------------- 2023---13,570
Click to expand...
I did find a Wyoming list (2005-2023) with more stats:
Year---Hunters-----Bucks-----Does-----Fawns-----Total-----%
2005---62,092--------------------------------------35,266----56.8
2006---64,660--------------------------------------40,067----62.0
2007---65,503--------------------------------------41,207----63.0
2008---62,739--------------------------------------36,211----57.7
2009---62,687--------------------------------------38,067----60.7
2010---61,220--------------------------------------34,570----56.5
2011---56,143--------------------------------------28,112----50.1
2012---50,696--------------------------------------27,718----54.7
2013---48,721--------------------------------------25,410----52.2
2014---48,426--------------------------------------26,086----53.9
2015---49,859--------------------------------------28,316----56.8
2016---53,018--------------------------------------31,237----58.9
2017---50,364--------------------------------------27,134----53.9
2018---48,632---22,671------3,189---------281---26,142----53.8
2019*--63,232---29,176-----11,126-------1,813---42,114----66.7
2020*--64,152---27,938-----11,469-------1,867---41,275----64.3
2021*--58,882---23,957------9,662-------1,442---35,061----59.5
2022*--57,342---21,799------6,533--------983----29,315----51.1
2023*--41,352---18,465------4,857-------1,094---24,416----59.0
*Whitetails added
 
If you think Berry’s scope is bad, you should see his rangefinder and two way communication system.

High end scope + high end rangefinder + two way communication = Abominable Hydra that needs to have one of it’s ugly heads cut off.

Talk about giving Bambi a chance
 
Betterluckythangood said:
If you think Berry’s scope is bad, you should see his rangefinder and two way communication system.

High end scope + high end rangefinder + two way communication = Abominable Hydra that needs to have one of it’s ugly heads cut off.

Talk about giving Bambi a chance
Click to expand...
This is what it takes to get me up to average. Some guys aren’t good at stuff and need all the help they can get just to be passable.
 
Vanilla said:
Tag numbers. That’s the only “management” strategy. Always has been, always will be.

I’m sure eventually it will work. It’s got to!

Or, we can start actually managing mule deer instead of people. It’s a choice, and I choose mule deer. Some here will insist we stick to people and then they can continue to come to the internet and say “I told you so!!!” even if it is their own pissing and moaning causing it.
Click to expand...
The two are intertwined. I could certainly be wrong, but I believe that if there were not mule deer hunters, there wouldn't be any (or at least very little) interest in managing mule deer.

Vanilla, forgive me if you have stated this already, I admit I've not ready all 200+ posts in this thread, but what would you suggest in terms of a management tactic/approach that doesn't also involve people/hunter management?

My last thought that I think is worth sharing: In the WB Workshop, they specifically showed that during two different periods since 2005 there were significant growth periods for mule deer in addition to some major downturns that were attributed to weather events. By and large, the management practices have been the same from 2005 to now. I only point this out to say, it is quite possible that the current management strategy is actually good, above average, or even the very best option. I know that most on this thread do not think that is the case (in all honestly, I don't either), but I think it is wise to recognize that it is a possibility, even if your (or my) opinion is that it isn't. It is possible there are better strategies, however, it is also possible that there are some that would be significantly worse. Bad part is, until you go down the path for some time, no one knows what the outcome will be. Some outcomes could be irreversible. Be careful what you (we) wish for, as they say.
 
Hey BEAVIS!

The Scope Must Be A Little Cleaner Than The 243 Scope Was?

Cam@strawberry said:
I like passing MOTL bucks. I like having a tag in my pocket to pass MOTL bucks. Give me more tags more frequently and I’ll pass more MOTL bucks like this one I passed last year.

Wonder if ol bessy has ever considered that giving guys more frequent hunting opportunities would lead to less pisscutters being dumped.

View attachment 142440View attachment 142441

Mostly just wanted to show some picture evidence that I do in fact hunt for myself 😂.

I like Bess’s management proposal. It’s very well thought out from a one dimensional perspective.
Click to expand...
 
Hey Nilly!

You Manage Them 3 Units That You,BEAVIS,notdon,elkhunter81 Will Be In Charge Of Any Damn Way you want To!

With The JUST DOUBLE THE TAGS BS Type Of Management You'll Be Running You Might Still Get Yourselves A PISSCUTTER Every Few Years!

Remember:

You Are The KING On Them 3 Units & Manage Them As you Damn Well Please!

When You've Got Em F'ED up Even Worse Than They Are Now DON'T COME A BAWLING!





Vanilla said:
Tag numbers. That’s the only “management” strategy. Always has been, always will be.

I’m sure eventually it will work. It’s got to!

Or, we can start actually managing mule deer instead of people. It’s a choice, and I choose mule deer. Some here will insist we stick to people and then they can continue to come to the internet and say “I told you so!!!” even if it is their own pissing and moaning causing it.
Click to expand...
 
PONY UP TOUGH GUY!

I Wanna See You Manage Them 3 Units!

Without F'ING Them Up Worse Than They Already Are!

This I Gotta See!



Vanilla said:
Tag numbers. That’s the only “management” strategy. Always has been, always will be.

I’m sure eventually it will work. It’s got to!

Or, we can start actually managing mule deer instead of people. It’s a choice, and I choose mule deer. Some here will insist we stick to people and then they can continue to come to the internet and say “I told you so!!!” even if it is their own pissing and moaning causing it.
Click to expand...
 
Simpleton said:
Vanilla, forgive me if you have stated this already, I admit I've not ready all 200+ posts in this thread, but what would you suggest in terms of a management tactic/approach that doesn't also involve people/hunter management?
Click to expand...

I’d love to see important wildlife migration corridors protected with fencing and under/overpasses. You’d think we could get some more of those with the tens of millions of dollars the hunt expo has generated for “conservation,” but I am not seeing those orgs step up.

Additionally, I’d like to see us work to improve summer range. I’m learning that this is a big deal for health, and therefore, a big deal for fawn production and survival.

Finally, I’d love to see us put the absolute hurt on mountain lions. Sorry to the houndsmen out there. I know that isn’t fair for you and you’d hate this. I get it. That would suck for you all. But this is about mule deer, and reducing certain predators will help, in my opinion.

There are 47+ other things like the color of your truck and how many inches of orange one wears that bessy can tell you about, but I’d rather focus on things that actually would help mule deer! And those three things are a really good start, in my opinion.
 
Last edited:
Vanilla said:
I’d love to see important wildlife migration corridors protected with fencing and under/overpasses. You’d think we could get some more of those with the tens of millions of dollars the hunt expo has generated for “conservation,” but I am not seeing those orgs step up.

Additionally, I’d like to see us work to improve summer range. I’m learning that this is a big deal for health, and therefore, a big deal for fawn production and survival.

Finally, I’d love to see us put the absolute hurt on mountain lions. Sorry to the houndsmen out there. I know that isn’t fair for you and you’d hate this. I get it. That would suck for you all. But this is about mule deer, and reducing certain predators will help, in my opinion.

There are 47+ other things like the color of your truck and how many inches of orange one wears that beast can tell you about, but I’d rather focus on things that actually would help mule deer! And those three things are a really good start, in my opinion.
Click to expand...

It is interesting to see them completely change how they think about the habitat restoration what seems like on the fly. Before this last couple meetings it seemed like all the efforts was on winter ranges, but they are finding that it is actually summer ranges that may have the most beneficial effects on the herds.

To be fair though a lot of the summer ranges are national Forrest and they are a real b!tch to work with at times. But it did seem like they was making some good headway in that regard.

All in all I am optimistic on things at this point in time. There seems to be a lot of things trending in the right direction.
 
Vanilla said:
I’d love to see important wildlife migration corridors protected with fencing and under/overpasses. You’d think we could get some more of those with the tens of millions of dollars the hunt expo has generated for “conservation,” but I am not seeing those orgs step up.

Additionally, I’d like to see us work to improve summer range. I’m learning that this is a big deal for health, and therefore, a big deal for fawn production and survival.

Finally, I’d love to see us put the absolute hurt on mountain lions. Sorry to the houndsmen out there. I know that isn’t fair for you and you’d hate this. I get it. That would suck for you all. But this is about mule deer, and reducing certain predators will help, in my opinion.

There are 47+ other things like the color of your truck and how many inches of orange one wears that beast can tell you about, but I’d rather focus on things that actually would help mule deer! And those three things are a really good start, in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Thin out all large carnivorous predators here in Utah. Utah should Not have any trophy predators available on the landscape. In fact if someone harvests a coyote, cougar ,and a bear they should be able to obtain a general buck deer tag, if they can't draw one. This should be a new standard.
 
Keep Thumpin Your Chest!

You're Gonna Focus On A Couple Things Huh?

So In Your Mind You'll Have It All Fixed By 2025?

Gonna Take A Little More Than Focusing On Something!

Make Sure You've Got It Pinned Down To Just 2 Or 3 Issues!

ROOKIE!



Vanilla said:
Tough guy?

Ain’t nobody tough on the internet. Quit pretending.
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
Hey Nilly!

You Manage Them 3 Units That You,BEAVIS,notdon,elkhunter81 Will Be In Charge Of Any Damn Way you want To!

With The JUST DOUBLE THE TAGS BS Type Of Management You'll Be Running You Might Still Get Yourselves A PISSCUTTER Every Few Years!

Remember:

You Are The KING On Them 3 Units & Manage Them As you Damn Well Please!

When You've Got Em F'ED up Even Worse Than They Are Now DON'T COME A BAWLING!
Click to expand...
Maybe we are just tired of trying the same thing that you have allowed to go on for the last 40years trying to fix the herd. Maybe we want to try something else. Maybe there are different ways to handling this problem. Why do we always focus on just hunter management?
 
elkhunter81 said:
Maybe we are just tired of trying the same thing that you have allowed to go on for the last 40years trying to fix the herd. Maybe we want to try something else. Maybe there are different ways to handling this problem. Why do we always focus on just hunter management?
Click to expand...

What do they say is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

I’m not insane. I’m ready for a different vision.
 
I'm still working on the Idaho stats (They're a mess), but I came across this:
"To understand why mule deer populations in many parts of Idaho may never again reach historic levels, we need to go back to the causes of deer population increase: ideal habitat and low competition. The brush fields created by early overgrazing began to change during the 50s and 60s because of heavy use by deer, advanced age of plants, and changed livestock grazing practices. Modern range management systems are designed to produce and encourage grasses, not brush. Formerly brush-dominated ranges are changing back to grass-dominated ranges that are more suitable for cattle and elk than mule deer. Elk populations have increased in many areas formerly dominated by deer.

It would be very unwise, if not impossible, to return to grazing practices that produced the brushy ranges on which mule deer once thrived. There is little we can do about the winter weather. For these reasons and others addressed later, we believe it is unrealistic to expect significant mule deer increases on a statewide basis between 1991 and 1995. Although increases can be expected in some herds, many populations appear to be at or near carrying capacity. Our management philosophy today is to maximize the amount of recreational opportunity and provide a variety of hunting experiences with the populations we currently have."

Although I'm not real impressed by that last sentence, I concur with the rest of the quote. It's mainly the habitat, weather and grazing practices. For further info get on the Idaho Fish and Game website and search for MDPR92.

Edited: I have to deal with some medical issues, but when things settle down a bit, I'll start another thread on cheatgrass and the many ways it cheats/effects mule deer especially. It's nastier than I (or you) ever imagined!
 
Last edited:
To be honest, the muledeer population is not a priority to most people in the state of Utah or the West for that matter. That's why we have declining populations. Individuals, government, industry, producers and just about everyone else, does things that are bad for mule deer without a second thought. Until this changes we are at the mercy of mother nature and her cycles.
 
Dear Utah Wildlife Board, RAC's and Elkass

It is with a shared concern for the future the mule deer herds of the Western United States, specifically Utah. The mule deer, with its majestic presence and vital role in our ecosystem, has long been a symbol of resilience and natural beauty. Yet, in recent years, we have witnessed a steep decline in their populations, posing significant challenges for both conservationists and hunters alike.

This decline in mule deer numbers is not merely a statistical trend; it represents a complex combination of environmental, ecological, and human factors. Habitat loss, fragmentation, predation, and human activities have all contributed to this concerning trajectory. As stewards of our natural resources, it falls upon us to address these challenges head-on and seek sustainable solutions that ensure the long-term viability of mule deer populations.

For hunters, the decline in mule deer numbers is not just an ecological issue but also a matter of heritage and livelihood. Hunting has been a time-honored tradition in the West for generations, providing not only recreational enjoyment but also sustenance for many families. However, as mule deer populations decline, so too do the opportunities for hunting and the economic benefits it brings to local communities.

Yet, amidst these challenges, there is hope. By coming together as a community of conservationists, hunters, policymakers, and concerned citizens, we can forge a path forward that preserves both our cherished traditions and our precious natural heritage. Here are some solutions we must consider:

First, habitat conservation and restoration must be prioritized. Protecting critical mule deer habitats from further degradation and restoring degraded areas are essential steps in reversing the decline.

Second, we must address the impacts of human activities on mule deer populations, including habitat fragmentation, road construction, and commercial development. Through responsible land management practices and thoughtful urban planning, we can minimize these impacts and create wildlife-friendly landscapes.

Third, we must implement science-based wildlife management strategies, including predator control where necessary, to help balance predator-prey dynamics and support mule deer recovery.

Fourth, collaboration between stakeholders is crucial. By bringing together hunters, conservation organizations, government agencies, business and landowners, we can leverage collective expertise and resources to implement effective conservation measures.

Last, education is critical. Increasing public awareness about the decline and struggles of mule deer and the importance of conservation is key to garnering support and mobilizing action.

The decline of mule deer in the West, particularly in Utah, is a pressing issue that demands our immediate attention and coordinated actions. By working together, we can ensure a brighter future not only for mule deer but for all species that call our Western lands home.
 
You've Got A START There elkantlers!

Keep typing!

elkantlers said:
Dear Utah Wildlife Board, RAC's and Elkass

It is with a shared concern for the future the mule deer herds of the Western United States, specifically Utah. The mule deer, with its majestic presence and vital role in our ecosystem, has long been a symbol of resilience and natural beauty. Yet, in recent years, we have witnessed a steep decline in their populations, posing significant challenges for both conservationists and hunters alike.

This decline in mule deer numbers is not merely a statistical trend; it represents a complex combination of environmental, ecological, and human factors. Habitat loss, fragmentation, predation, and human activities have all contributed to this concerning trajectory. As stewards of our natural resources, it falls upon us to address these challenges head-on and seek sustainable solutions that ensure the long-term viability of mule deer populations.

For hunters, the decline in mule deer numbers is not just an ecological issue but also a matter of heritage and livelihood. Hunting has been a time-honored tradition in the West for generations, providing not only recreational enjoyment but also sustenance for many families. However, as mule deer populations decline, so too do the opportunities for hunting and the economic benefits it brings to local communities.

Yet, amidst these challenges, there is hope. By coming together as a community of conservationists, hunters, policymakers, and concerned citizens, we can forge a path forward that preserves both our cherished traditions and our precious natural heritage. Here are some solutions we must consider:

First, habitat conservation and restoration must be prioritized. Protecting critical mule deer habitats from further degradation and restoring degraded areas are essential steps in reversing the decline.

Second, we must address the impacts of human activities on mule deer populations, including habitat fragmentation, road construction, and commercial development. Through responsible land management practices and thoughtful urban planning, we can minimize these impacts and create wildlife-friendly landscapes.

Third, we must implement science-based wildlife management strategies, including predator control where necessary, to help balance predator-prey dynamics and support mule deer recovery.

Fourth, collaboration between stakeholders is crucial. By bringing together hunters, conservation organizations, government agencies, business and landowners, we can leverage collective expertise and resources to implement effective conservation measures.

Last, education is critical. Increasing public awareness about the decline and struggles of mule deer and the importance of conservation is key to garnering support and mobilizing action.

The decline of mule deer in the West, particularly in Utah, is a pressing issue that demands our immediate attention and coordinated actions. By working together, we can ensure a brighter future not only for mule deer but for all species that call our Western lands home.
Click to expand...
 
Here's Arizona: (Separating the mule deer data from the whitetail data and the weapons was more difficult than I anticipated.)
Year---Bucks---Does---Total-----Year---Bucks---Does---Total
1946---4,733-----0-----4,733-----1980---11,111-----0-----11,111
1947---6,420-----0-----6,420-----1981---11,152----40-----11,192
1948---7,356-----0-----7,356-----1982---12,474----50-----12,524
1949---7,465----386----7,85------1983---13,015----61----13,076
------------------------------------1984---17,719----35-----7,754
1950---9,009----798----9,807-----1985---17,027---344----17,371
1951---9,618----658---10,276-----1986---17,413--3,091--20,504
1952--10,575---2,707--13,303-----1987---15,963--2,249--18,212
1953--12,602---3,848--16,450-----1988---14,619--2,004--16,623
1954--11,677---6,425--18,092-----1989---14,373---895---15,268
1955--15,232---5,482--20,715-------------------------------------
1956--16,224---8,943--25,167----1990---12,082--2,844--14,926
1957--15,340---4,859--20,199-----1991---13,079----0-----13,079
1958--18,169--10,066--28,235-----1992---13,051----0----13,051
1959--16,472---7,993--24,465-----1993---13,336----63---13,399
--------------------------------------1994---12,270---105---12,375
1960--19,373---8,473--27,846-----1995---10,196----97---10,293
1961--22,474---8,327--30,801-----1996----8,592----83----8,675
1962--16,800---7,751--24,551-----1997----7,099----30----7,129
1963--14,173---6,280--20,453-----1998----7,354----63----7,417
1964--12,676---2,375--15,051-----1999----7,393---697----8,090
1965--11,357---2,002--13,359--------------------------------------
1966--12,158---2,040--14,198-----2000----6,512---638----7,150
1967--12,350---1,388--13,738-----2001----6,389--1,226---7,516
1968--12,298----741---13,039-----2002----5,753---469----6,222
1969--12,203----567---12,770-----2003----4,638---306----4,944
-------------------------------------2004----5,084----225----5,309
1970--13,167----420---13,587-----2005----5,493----269----5,762
1971---9,129----334-----9,463-----2006--- 6,231-----64----6,295
1972---9,137----338-----9,475-----2007----6,833----269---7,102
1973--11,114---402----11,516-----2008----6,336----364---6,700
1974--11,715---533----12,248-----2009----7,905----137---8,042
1975--12,576---408----12,576--------------------------------------
1976--10,578---261----10,839------2010----6,131---194---6,325
1977---9,871-----6------9,877------2011----6,856----60----6,916
1978---9,075----38------9113------2012----6,885----79----6,964
1979--10,347----0------10,374-----2013----7,330----193---7,523
--------------------------------------2014----7,291----292---7,583
--------------------------------------2015----6,995----315---7,310
--------------------------------------2016----7,002----484---7,486
--------------------------------------2017---10,440---472--10,912
--------------------------------------2018------NA-----NA----NA
--------------------------------------2019----9,328----231---9,559
--------------------------------------2020----7,806----240---8,046
--------------------------------------2021----4,619----99----4,718
--------------------------------------2022----5,248----48----5,296
--------------------------------------2023----6,440----47----6,487
 
Last edited:
JakeH said:
t is interesting to see them completely change how they think about the habitat restoration what seems like on the fly. Before this last couple meetings it seemed like all the efforts was on winter ranges, but they are finding that it is actually summer ranges that may have the most beneficial effects on the herds.
Click to expand...
The DWR and Biologist are just figuring this out? That summer range has the most beneficial effects.
They better know that all the late fall and captures and studies they do Is based off of summer habitat.
Summer range always has been very important for all wildlife and always have, especially going into winter.

I'm speechless.
 
Last edited:
How Many Decades Did That Take To Figure Out?

What Has Always Amazed Me Is They Still Think It's Always One Problem/Issue!

When Somebody Realizes It's 50+ Issues Will Somebody Let Me Know?

Elkslayer2015 said:
The DWR and Biologist are just figuring this out? That summer range has the most beneficial effects.
They better know that all the late fall and captures and studies they do Is based off of summer habitat.
Summer range always has been very important for all wildlife and always have, especially going into winter.

I'm speechless.
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
How Many Decades Did That Take To Figure Out?

What Has Always Amazed Me Is They Still Think It's Always One Problem/Issue!

When Somebody Realizes It's 50+ Issues Will Somebody Let Me Know?
Click to expand...
Well if this is true from what Jake said. Then we have a big problem and I mean big.
I would assume it's true because he's on the RAC.
 

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Muleman1
Muleman1

Member Gallery Photos and Videos!

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Unbelievable Beast Bull
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Fantastic Buck for antlerhound
Bearpaw Outfitters

Experience world class hunting for mule deer, elk, cougar, bear, turkey, moose, sheep and more.

Wild West Outfitters

Hunt the big bulls, bucks, bear and cats in southern Utah. Your hunt of a lifetime awaits.

J & J Outfitters

Offering quality fair-chase hunts for trophy mule deer, elk, shiras moose and mountain lions.

Shane Scott Outfitting

Quality trophy hunting in Utah. Offering FREE Utah drawing consultation. Great local guides.

Utah Big Game Outfitters

Specializing in bighorn sheep, mule deer, elk, mountain goat, lions, bears & antelope.

Apex Outfitters

We offer experienced guides who hunt Elk, Mule Deer, Antelope, Sheep, Bison, Goats, Cougar, and Bear.

Urge 2 Hunt

We offer high quality hunts on large private ranches around the state, with landowner vouchers.

Allout Guiding & Outfitting

Offering high quality mule deer, elk, bear, cougar and bison hunts in the Book Cliffs and Henry Mtns.

Lickity Split Outfitters

General season and LE fully guided hunts for mule deer, elk, moose, antelope, lion, turkey, bear and coyotes.

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