2010 AZ Deer Banquet

D

desertbucks

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The AZ Deer Association Banquet is June 5th. We have a corporate table for the night. This is a awesome banquet with lots of rifles etc. Who is all going?
 
I will be there like always. I will be working the live auction so look for the crazy guy!
 
Hey Crazy Guy....you gonna be wearing this crazy javelina hat I heard about?
 
I will be there with my wife Kerri. Really looking forward to it, hope alot of money is raised for wildlife......... Thanks, Allen Taylor......
 
Guys;

The banquet will be

WHEN : Saturday June 5th banquet doors open 4pm

Where : Chaparral Suites Resort
5001 N. Scottsdale, Az

Cost: Banquet Tickets only $65.00 each

Table of 10 seats only $750.00
( table price includes $200.00 of general
raffle tickets ) that's $200.00 worth of tickets
for $100.00

Deer Daze:
There will be a seminar about hunting mule deer
from 12pm until 4pm at the same location.

The guest speaker will be Ryan Hatch , of Muley
Crazy Magazine, one of, if not the most knowledgeable
person I have ever met on Mule Deer.

Ryan Hatch as well as other professionals will be
speaking on Mule Deer as well as a large display
of Trophy Mule Deer mounts.

Cost: Deer Daze will offer tickets for only $25.00 each.
( I personally would have paid 10 time that just
to here Ryan's opinion on Mule Deer. )

Here is the good part,
If you buy a banquet ticket for $65.00
you can get in to the Deer Daze for only
$10.00 more.

It is called a combo ticket $75.00

Time is running out, you may still purchase your tickets on line ( www.azdeer.org )

I will be there taking pictures for the Arizona Deer Association. Be sure to say HELLO !

Remember, besides helping out the ADA, you are helping fund all of those water hole projects, habitat projects, youth hunts and many other things thruout the State of Arizona that the ADA funds on a yearly basis. These people are all volunteers working for wildlife. THEY are who make up the ADA and they, are the people trying to raise money for wildlife. WE need your help, come spend some money for wildlife. There is an all firearms raffle.

WE NEED YOUR HELP, WE ARE THE ONES WORKING FOR WILDLIFE, COME AND SUPPORT US.

Steve Cheuvront
 
I hope to see you all there as well. I will only be attending the deer daze, wife's birthday! Hope to see you there!
 
"The guest speaker will be Ryan Hatch, of Muley
Crazy Magazine, one of, if not the most knowledgeable
person I have ever met on Mule Deer."

Are you kidding me??? While the ADA is diminishing, no less? Sheeesh. Find a better quality deer hero such as Jim Reynolds. Jim is legit and honorable and a true hunter.

Steve Chuvitt, why in the world would you hire and advertise a speaker that is not respected my many and has been the leading proponent of unethical, immoral hunting techniques? He is also the most prominent commercial marketeer of big mule deer bucks in order to promote his business and his ways. He doesn't care about the means....only the end. He openly promotes the use of trail cams, gang hunting, chute planes, and 1000-yard rifles in order for someone to whack a buck that he can publish in his magazine and sell DVD's and sell ads for the gear used and build his empire. There is no decency and integrity in what he does. Whatever happened to good old fashioned hunting for a big buck? Ryan Hatch is the worst commercializer of these magnificent wild animals today.

Advertising your ADA banquet around him shows your shallowness and disregard for true, moral, individual hunting and harvesting of Arizona deer.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-05-10 AT 11:49PM (MST)[p]I did not gather any of that from Ryan today. Most info was broad and general. There was no talk of chute planes, 1000 yard shooting or "gang" hunting mentioned. I have had my ups and downs with ADA, but to attack them as sideways as you have, and Steve CHEUVRONT, is completely out of line.

If you want to make a difference, attend the meetings and speak up or become a founder of a "better" group. I understand why Ryan was there, as well your feelings of ADA. They mostly only lend a blind eye to much of AZ's "other" deer country. Although no mention was really made by Hatch about the desert, I enjoyed listening to him even if we have really have no common interest in where we hunt. I also enjoyed meeting many great people. Sorry you were not there.

Travis
 
"I did not gather any of that from Ryan today. Most info was broad and general. There was no talk of chute planes, 1000 yard shooting or "gang" hunting mentioned. I have had my ups and downs with ADA, but to attack them as sideways as you have, and Steve CHEUVRONT, is completely out of line."


No I'm not, STUD!!! I am networked among old-timey trophy muley hunters, Dude. Quit assuming that I'm a dude, MM.com hunter.......would you? Knock it the F off! I am 46 and have busted my a$$ for my animules......same as my buddies......the honorable and satisfying way. We are tired of this crap!!!

Read Hatch's magazine any month lately. Gross, sickening, and everything else I've said. Trail cam ads & articles, brand new 1000-yard shooting training courses, and two out of three pics done by gangs. So are his vids. Sheeesh.

What ever happened to hunting the legit and moral and honorable way??? Hiking, glassing, reading sign, sweating, blistered, sunburned, cactus splines, thirsty, and sore? What's wrong with earning a nice buck the satisfying way......instead of the trail cam way?

Only a man who is truly yellow will use a trail cam to whack a buck and then publish him in a magazine or on a website to achieve fame and money.

Enough. I'm out tonite.
 
Careful there Doggie. Seeing the time of your post, mommy must not have put you back on your leash. Relax a little bit, nobody was defending Hatch & nobody called you a "dude". Please do some homework & know who you are picking an argument with. The way you describe hunting, well the guy you just yelled at might just lap you once or twice in that department.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-10 AT 11:26AM (MST)[p]Wow snoopy you need to lay off the beers before you type!! I am glad your not STUD, whatever that means!?!

I did not intend to offend you or defend Ryan. I was simply stating the facts of what I saw. I am sorry we can't see eye to eye on this.
 
The banquet was really fun last night we had a rifle and a Vortex 15x56 with tripod won at our table. I am not sure what is wrong with using trail camera's since it is the year 2010.
 
Congrats bucks! My brother and I were not able to attend the banquet, but we did walk around for a bit. The seminar was also pretty interesting. I am glad I attended. Were you able to make the seminar?
 
We did not attend the seminar but wished we could have, maybe next year. I thought I saw you but was not sure if that was you since we have not ever met. The commisioner mule deer tag went for $205K and I think the antelope went for around 30k.
 
WOW great proceeds for sure! I was wearing a green camo shirt with a small logo on the left side and a brown cap with the logo. My brother was wearing a orange colored shirt and a forrest green hat with our logo as well. There was a lot of people there! Steve was keeping me pretty busy while I was there.
 
Guys;

Maddglasser, was there and came to support the event, the best way he could.

We both listened to Ryan Hatch and Chris Denham, as they spoke about deer in the west and new inovations in sporting goods, mainly new scopes, and much more. After the seminar, we both spoke to Chris Denham, and maybe next year, we will have Madglasser and his brother up on stage , explaining their form of desert hunting. I am looking froward to it.

As far as Ryan Hatch goes, he is my friend and has been for nearly 12 years. I know him and his family, and love them all as friends. Those who wish to bad mouth Ryan, have that right, but I have known Ryan personally for 12 years and those who judge from afar and don't know him personally , should, before they make bad remarks about him. Enough said.

Had a ball at the banquet, lots of people won lots of guns, gear and had a great prime rib dinner. Don't miss next years event. Many MM folks were present. I was the fool taking pictures, yes that was me.

Thanks all

Steve Cheuvront
 
Spin it any way you guys want.

This has nothing to do with Ryan's friendship or personality. Steve C.....you've been right here on this forum promoting the use of trail cams before. I've told you all this before. It's yellow and half-a$$ed and cutting every corner! And it's about half-way there to the destruction of hunting. The end doesn't justify the means. Whatever happened to getting out and actually hunting? Knowledge of the animals habits and behaviors to harvest one? Whatever happened to one-on-one just you against the animal?

MG....you definitely defended this kind of stuff in your first post. It's right there, don't backpeddle now. If you AZ guys would listen once in a while......I wouldn't have to yell. When an org willingly chooses to let this kind of hunter speak at it's annual event......then that org is representative of that kind of hunting. Period. Odd that Chris Denham would share a stage with him after the anti-trail cam editorial he made in his mag a few months ago.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-10 AT 11:33PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-10 AT 10:20?PM (MST)

Dog,
It's your story, tell it however you want! I guess Big-Eye glasses are yellow as well. Do you promote spotting scopes?
How about a GPS? Do you use a newer vehicle to travel to your hunting area? Some people may have a problem with your choices of equipment and strategies. I for one do not use trail cams, never have, but it is not because I am afraid of being "yella"!

If you took the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth, maybe then you would start listening, and possibly reading what was wrote.

Nobody attacked you. You started blabbering crap off the get go. I am glad you have your opinion, this is a forum, voice it, but keep in mind, what you write reflects who you are! If you appear out of line, it's your fault!

Simple point, If you chose not to help promote, and secure wildlife then don't! But don't knock those who are. How much have you helped AZ's deer in the recent past and what do you plan to do in the future?

Read this very carefully and tell me where I defended unethical hunting practices
"
I did not gather any of that from Ryan today. Most info was broad and general. There was no talk of chute planes, 1000 yard shooting or "gang" hunting mentioned. I have had my ups and downs with ADA, but to attack them as sideways as you have, and Steve CHEUVRONT, is completely out of line.

If you want to make a difference, attend the meetings and speak up or become a founder of a "better" group. I understand why Ryan was there, as well your feelings of ADA. They mostly only lend a blind eye to much of AZ's "other" deer country. Although no mention was really made by Hatch about the desert, I enjoyed listening to him even if we have really have no common interest in where we hunt. I also enjoyed meeting many great people. Sorry you were not there.

Travis"

READ IT CAREFULLY!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-10 AT 10:40PM (MST)[p]"How much have you helped AZ's deer in the recent past and what do you plan to do in the future?"


Piss poor choice of words, T. Do your homework before you post.

This ain't about deer...it's about folks. That's what raises my ire. The deer are fine.....the hunters are F*#ked......difference.

And I didn't just criticize......I offered a better choice to the ADA. Call Jim.

I will scream and yell at all AZ boys who have learned that in this arid, desert environment.......that the 'achilles heel' of animals is their necessary drink. And they can capitalize on that by never leaving their couch.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-10 AT 11:38PM (MST)[p]You still haven't heard a thing have you?
Screaming will get you exactly what you have gotten! NOTHING!!! But keep doing it!
If you were not yellow, you would post your name or at least not hide behind your profile, thats yellow!!

Anyways it dosen't matter. Reread my first post and tell me what I said wrong. Please do so before your temp and blood pressure rises anymore. And please answere what I have asked from you, or simply stop spouting, ooops, yelling and screaming at your computer. You don't want to hurt its feelings now do you?

Here is my first post that upset you SO badly in the beginning. Please describe where I offended you

"I did not gather any of that from Ryan today. Most info was broad and general. There was no talk of chute planes, 1000 yard shooting or "gang" hunting mentioned. I have had my ups and downs with ADA, but to attack them as sideways as you have, and Steve CHEUVRONT, is completely out of line.

If you want to make a difference, attend the meetings and speak up or become a founder of a "better" group. I understand why Ryan was there, as well your feelings of ADA. They mostly only lend a blind eye to much of AZ's "other" deer country. Although no mention was really made by Hatch about the desert, I enjoyed listening to him even if we have really have no common interest in where we hunt. I also enjoyed meeting many great people. Sorry you were not there."

Can you quit backpeddleing and answer the question?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-10 AT 11:36PM (MST)[p]"Why is it that you seem very upset at AZ boys only?"

Because......as I stated above....."I will scream and yell at all AZ boys who have learned that in this arid, desert environment.......that the 'achilles heel' of animals is their necessary drink. And they can capitalize on that by never leaving their couch."

If they are called 'trail cams'....how come they are never set up on a trail? Is it cuz that would require that a scouter actually has to get out of the air-conditioned truck and hike a bit....and actually know something about the habits and behaviors of the animal in order to find the right place to set a trail cam? Ohhhh nooooo.....those things should be called 'water tank' cams......cuz that eliminates the need to be even semi-competent in the successful placement of the cam. That also allows the cam-dude to sit in the bar longer and still have some chance of shooting a biggun' and ending up in MuleyCrazy magazine. And after the cam photos........8 brothers-in-law plus 3 cousins on chute planes plus a 1000-yard rifle provided after your training course.

Yellow. Stop it in the name of decency, integrity, and hunting.

Do you guys teach a younger hunter that the top 2 pieces of necessary hunting gear are 1) quad, and 2) trail cam?

There is some sorry sheet going on in the country right now, no question. Hunting tactics are the ones that raise my ire the most.
 
You definitely have some deeper issues than you care to express here! Go ahead, get them out!
 
"If they are called trail cams... then how come they are never setup on trails?"

All my camera's are on trails that are least a 1/4 mile off any road. Most guys dont put them on waterholes because people steal them. TWO dogs where are u from? Have you removed camera's off of waterholes because you were pissed? What is wrong with a trail camera vs a corn feeder in Texas with animals running in?
 
"If you were not yellow, you would post your name or at least not hide behind your profile, thats yellow!!


My name is found on here the same place yours is. It can also be found in earlier versions of "The Deer Times"......Studly. You also apparently know me from another AZ based forum for my BIG EYES post. But what do you want from me if I post my name and phone #? What will you say?


"I did not gather any of that from Ryan today. Most info was broad and general. There was no talk of chute planes, 1000 yard shooting or "gang" hunting mentioned. I have had my ups and downs with ADA, but to attack them as sideways as you have, and Steve CHEUVRONT, is completely out of line."


Sounds very like your defending Hatch, just cuz he may have focused his speech on the things that wouldn't raise the audiences' temperature. Good thing I wasn't there!. Also your descrediting me by my challenge of Steve C. Grrrrrrrrrrr. That is what raises my ire. Steve C willingly chose to lock himself into Hatch.
 
2Dogs, You should quit assuming EVERYONE in AZ uses trail cams. I for one do not!! I scout and scout and scout. I don't even own a quad. I rely on my optics and knowledge of the desert to be successful. I don't knock those guy's that use cams though, however I don't cry when one of their cams are stolen, it's the price a person pays. But to assume that once a buck is found on a cam that he is automatically dead and on his way to Muley Crazy is ridiculous and asinine!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-10 AT 00:01AM (MST)[p]
I have NEVER read an article about Big Eyes by anyone. I am still puzzled! You certainly keep an audience. Also I dont give 2 sh--s well dogs about your ire. Get off your testosterone trip DUDE!! You sound like a cartoon character, and I am sure you are a VERY capable hunter, but just stop man!

You know, here, you got it. YOU WIN!!
 
"All my camera's are on trails that are least a 1/4 mile off any road. Most guys dont put them on waterholes because people steal them. TWO dogs where are u from? Have you removed camera's off of waterholes because you were pissed?"


Nope. I blast them to smithereens with my .44 magnum which I always pack. Then the pathetic, immoral, twisted whiners come on the net and whine "some a$$hole stole my camera" when in fact they ARE THE slimebucket, greaseball, yellow, trail cam users and hunting violators. Their train of thought is just twisted. They are the bad guys!
 
You Guys are wasting your time arguing with 2 dogs.

My Great Grandpa said that 2 dogs is a Yellow sorry Hunter. My Great Grandpa had to walk to his hunting grounds and kill stuff with home made Longbows and Arrows. No Camo, No Vehicle, no bino's, no goretech Boots etc. Any other method and you are a lazy cheating hunter, period.

Times change puppy. You sure don't hunt like they did in 1800 do you ?

Quit the infighting 2 dogs. If it's a legal method, I have no problem with how other people chose to hunt. I have my personal prefferences as does everyone else. I should probably qualify this by stating that I don't own a single trail Camera or a chute plane . Does that make me OK 2 Dogs ?
 
TWODOGS I CAN HEAR YOU SCREAMING AND YELLING FROM HERE!!!!

By reading your post, I can tell you're one angry guy.







Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest
 
Guys;

Ryan Hatch is my friend, I don't apologize for who my friends are, or do I desert them , just cause some one else doesn't like them.

Trail Cams, yes, I have , and still do use trail cams to find and locate animals. I am at the present time putting out 40 trail cams for a survey, paid for by the ADA and soortsman.

In the wildlife world, I am somewhat different, in that I don't hunt animals with a weapon and don't put in for tags or harvest big game animals. I made that decision in 1970 and haven't changed to this day. It is a personel thing with me, and I will not explain myself.

I believe at times, 2 dogs is many different people, at the same time. I think he is a good guy, but sometime other people inside him, appear, and they are not so nice. Give the fella a break and don't hit him to hard, we all have our crosses to bear.

Steve Cheuvront
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-10 AT 08:05PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-10 AT 08:04?PM (MST)

Hey 2dogs, I heard when you "GIT REALLLLLY MAAAAADDDD!!!! you turn them dawgs loose and they don't come home till the J.O.B is done.

OOOOHHHH!!! let me tell you, you little sumB you, if you ever wanna to blast my water cam to smithereens with that BIG OLE' 44 MAGNUM...... "go ahead make my day"

So thats all I gotta say, you stinking yeller lil' rascal...AHRRRRR
















Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest
 
I guess I should visit this site more often. The banquet sounds like it was a bore, but for a good cause. 2 guns did not attend. Which if he had, it would have made the banquet much more entertaining. I agree with 2 guns on trail cams but I don't think we should use them for target practice. Both my quads are broke so I could not use them to go the banquet let alone for a hunting purpose. 2 Guns is right on in the fact that alot of people are using hunting for money. The more I think about it.. I should visit this site more often, I could learn alot about hunting and the current division in our country.
 
azbuster;

Did you go to the banquet?

If so did I meet you?

Did you like all the pretty girls?

There was over 40 guns in the all gun raffle, did you win one?

Were you amazed, when the Auction tag sold for $205,000.00?

That's more than $370,000.00 for Mule Deer in Az. and the raffle tag hasn't finished selling tickets yet. I now how the money is spent and where, since I sit on the HPC committee.

I had never seen a " TOM CAR " before, it's an atc on steriods!

Had you sat in one before?

Many of the big names in wildlife were there, even the Director of the AZG&FD, Larry Voyles.

Azbuster, what did you like best about the banquet, and thank you for supporting wildlife.

Steve Cheuvront
 
What you stated is all very good and for a good cause. No I missed the "pretty girls" and how could I miss the "Tom car",but I will survive. Watching someone spend $205,000 on a deer hunt would have made my night. Sorry but I think I will just send in my small donations, they do add up. I thank you for your HPC involvement and hope that you use your position wisely. Now more than ever we need people like you to use good judgement in boards such as the HPC. I thank you for your service and your passion for deer in Arizona. I would hope that someone sitting on the HPC board is open minded to all points of view on hunting and wildlife management. I would hope that Larry Voyles feels this way aswell. My point is quite simple how do we start a thread on a deer banquet and watch it change to rock throwing. You just continued throwing rocks. I hope that isn't the way we behave on the HPC. If it is the HPC will fail.
 
Let me see here azbuster. This doesn't seem all that difficult to me.......but ADA master management missed it.

Mistake #1 = inviting a convicted poacher (and other wildlife violations) to be the guest speaker and the highlight of the banquet.

Mistake #2 = advertising the banquet around the so mentioned #1 guest speaker.

Mistake #3 = ADA assuming that members and potential members are unperceptive idiots.

Mistake #4 = ADA assuming #3 above plus the fact that there are many internet forums for information exchange available to us all.
 
2 dogs I think I will not get involved in the rock throwing. No accusations nor assuming of who did what to anyone. I think that you miss the point of how foolish this is.
 
2dogs... you stinking lil' varmint I would have responded earlier to your post but I've been busier than a three legged cat trying to bury a turd on a tin ROOF and if that aint busy I don't know what is.

Just in case you were wonderin' what I was doing. I was flying in my chute plane from water hole to water hole checking my dog gone water cams. Now I know that raises your IRE but back in the ole timey days I used to walk till ye ole stompers just got plum blisterd looking for deer sign. Boy I'll tell ya, I'd just wrap an ole canteen round me neck and a sack fulla jerky and head to hills checkin fer them big buck tracks. But then one day I woke up says to me self "Its 2010 what in the sweet name of the lord am I doin it the ole timey way for?"
















Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest
 
Guys;

This has gone way far from the ADA banquet, and what happened,

so I will let the other folks hash out what ever they will.

Thanks to all who came or supported the banquet or has worked for wildlife in their own way, without anyone else seeing or looking for notice, I thank you all for your efforts for wildlife.

Steve Cheuvront
 
ADA=a misguided, poorly managed, falling down org. Whether or not the folks like to be touchy-feely (and drunk) during the banquet......has nothing to do with it's actual success.

The Banquet doesn't focus on what's right.......but what raises the most money. What's right = moral, ethical hunting that is also satisfying and healthy.

Next year why don't you do a search on recent AZ poaching convictions to entertain your few attendees. Also, search for the magazine and DVD producers that destroy the classic American hunting ethic the most. Invite allllll these folks to the banquet.........and I will absolutely show up in spades to hand over my money to support this stuff. Honest.
 
One more thing for you proponents of this incredible nonsense.

Is Julius Fortuna still a member of the ADA Board of Governors? Can you post right here his legal history with the AZGFD?

Thanks for accommodating my request.
 
How about Steve Stayner or whatever his name is who got caught also? These guys that got caught sound like they are in Congress, where it is okay to violate laws and then have other people still worship them. They think time will just 'brush their crimes under the carpet' and they can become stars again.
Their past histories will always haunt them.
So to have these guest speakers at any events, is to be okay with people now? Meaning to have criminals speak for us or represent us? Very sad.
 
2 dogs, why would I accomodate your request on anything when I asked you in #21 and #25 of this thread where you are from and you never answered!
 
Not seeing your point....but I'll answer.

I'm from alllll over the west, and have hunted the heck out of it. I know you will find this hard to believe.....but I hunted it ethically and morally.....and have quite a few big pronghorns, elk, and muleys. This fall I will hunt Nevada for a whopper antelope, eastern Utah for the same, and far NE Nevada for a late season bull.

I grew up in NM, and have lived and worked in CO (twice), WY, MT, NV, ID........and now northern AZ.
 
FYI, I believe that some of these individuals you mention happened to be found innocent in the overzealous Operation Navajo fiasco. I believe that some of them may have been guilty for not having a companion permit on the rez and thats all!
 
Ummmmm....I asked for AZGFD and Utah DWR violations, not USF&W violations.

Answer my questions.
 
Chris (aka twodogs)

Can you just let it go. I am on the board for the ADA and Ryan was there because he is the best at what he does, and that is finding big mulies on the strip. He has had trouble in the past, but do you see it anymore?

Dont take your frustration out on the ADA. We are working as hard as we can to raise funds so we can do projects. If you are so hellbent on these projects why don't you come to a board meeting and bring a plan to the table? Or how about you become a member? Or at least do a donation of some kind!

If you have any questions about anything shoot me a PM or email me [email protected] I will happily give you my number so we can talk over the phone. You may remember that I was the one who would back you up on Terry's website in the past, but I am starting to regret that now due to the fact you are bad mouthing an organization such as the ADA!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-18-10 AT 11:51AM (MST)[p]Even with the faults of the ADA, NOT one single group, Assoc., or individual has attempted or accomplished more to benefit this states deer. If you analyze anything long enough you will find even the smallest faults and blow them way out of proportion. I believe that is happening now with 2dogs. I am not arguing with him about this, and I am not starting a fight with 2dogs about this, this is just what happens with all efforts, good or bad!
 
"Chris (aka twodogs)

Can you just let it go. I am on the board for the ADA and Ryan was there because he is the best at what he does, and that is finding big mulies on the strip. He has had trouble in the past, but do you see it anymore?

Dont take your frustration out on the ADA. We are working as hard as we can to raise funds so we can do projects. If you are so hellbent on these projects why don't you come to a board meeting and bring a plan to the table? Or how about you become a member? Or at least do a donation of some kind!"



Are you kidding me? I'm supposed to support ADA while the makers set up their trail cams and destroy this thing that I've spent my last 30 years doing??? I've spent my $$$ supporting hunting allll over the west, pal. Since you were a yonker.

I'm not gonna let it go....cuz your pleading is irresponsibly immoral and wrong. Ryan is a greaseball and a money-maker-at-any-costs..............I'm not trying to be a prick.....only a responsible trophy hunter. I was told to get tapped a few years ago by the ADA wizards when I offered to REALLY participate.
 

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