2019 Kaibab Caution

rockymtnhunter

Active Member
Messages
198
I apologize in advance for my lengthy message, but I want to raise a concern and express a caution to Kaibab hunters as a result of reading the ?Kaibab Nightmare? post. These comments are mine alone and not intended to offend anyone - I only want to offer some food for thought.

Conflicts between hunters (both DIY and licensed guides) related to trailcams (and other factors) on the Kaibab have been brewing for years, but have come to a head this fall due to extreme drought conditions resulting from a virtually non-existent summer monsoon. Those conditions have resulted in extremely limited water supplies for deer. Mature bucks are vulnerable because water is a critical limiting factor for wildlife on the Kaibab.

Some background - a wet monsoon in 2018 followed by abundant fall, winter and spring moisture provided excellent forage and habitat conditions for bucks to achieve excellent antler growth in 2019. Word quickly spread through the hunter grapevine that this could be a red letter year for big Kaibab bucks. That expectation was confirmed when hunters hit the field for pre-season scouting, and numerous large bucks were seen & taken during the archery season. Guides focused on locating & patterning those bucks for their clients during the upcoming rifle seasons. But for trailcams, Kaibab bucks would be hard to find and pattern.

Kaibab bucks are especially vulnerable because of limited water supplies. That vulnerability is exaggerated this year because of drought-limited water sources. The scarce remaining water sources are being intensely monitored by trailcams - not uncommon to find 6-8 trailcams on individual water sources. Outfitters/guides intensely focus on those water sources, and some unscrupulous guides and hunters tend to claim them based on ?first in time, first in right?, meaning whoever places their trailcams first can claim ?ownership? of any buck photographed. Some guides have hundreds of trailcams so that buck movement and locations can be almost instantly tracked. Some unscrupulous guides state that they will do whatever is necessary to assure that clients are successful - clients who pay thousands, tens of thousands, and even hundreds of thousands of dollars to harvest a big buck. I've personally observed other questionable practices (and not just by a few unscrupulous guides) such as baiting, 24/7 shadowing of bucks, spotlighting, driving off roads, and verbal harassment of DIY hunters.

My concern is that unlimited & unrestrained trailcam use on the Kaibab leads to unnecessary disturbance that interferes with wildlife use of critical water supplies. Multiple trailcams on a single water source means almost continuous human disturbance when cameras are checked. A common comment I hear from late season hunters is that they expected it to be a wilderness-type hunt, meaning few hunters in a large wild area, but what I see is hunters tripping over one another in the proximity of water sources ? and that can lead to unfortunate encounters.

Having said all this, I believe most guides are honest and provide excellent service to their clients. Good luck to Kaibab hunters!
 
They?ve already tried banning trail cams. But the guides went apeshyt!!! During the commission meeting when it was on the agenda, a well known guide even started crying when presenting his case. Apparently it worked and the commission voted against banning.

Something needs to be done with trail cams. The Strip is an even worse nightmare.
 
As someone who runs a few cameras, I am all in favor of a camera season. Feb 1st - August 15th. This allows everyone the opportunity to use them but also gives the wildlife a better chance to allude hunters during the seasons. Small sacrifice IMO.
 
>Use of trail cams is not
>fair chase and they need
>to be banned from hunting.
>


There's no such thing as "fair chase."
It's a myth, which is code for, "i'm better than you."

Next thing you know, hounds and pointers won't be fair chase.

Long range rifles, scopes, and range finders won't be fair chase.

Hunting fear bearers won't be fair chase.

Hunting over water won't be fair chase.

just because you don't like something, doesn't mean it should be banned.

If we got rid of guides, everything would be normal. It's the money that corrupts, not the tools of the trade.

The idea of hunting, is to kill an animal and eat it or wear it. I'd hate to go after something and have it be a fair fight.
 
>I agree ban them in Arizona
>
>We will continue to use them
>in Colorado

I don't think I've even seen a trail cam here on public lands. Arizona is another story. They are everywhere in the "premium" units, and everyone uses them. Kudos to Az for the way they manage their critters though.


Bluehair
Splitting my time time between the winter and summer range......
May you live long enough to cash in those preference points. Amen
 
Yep. The cameras have gone way too far. Follow Nevada's lead with a seasonal closure on cameras.

When conditions get dry in the southwest, big game animals HAVE to come to water and get their picture taken. They have absolutely no choice to avoid this pressure. NOT fair chase.
 
>Yep. The cameras have gone
>way too far. Follow
>Nevada's lead with a seasonal
>closure on cameras.
>
>When conditions get dry in the
>southwest, big game animals HAVE
>to come to water and
>get their picture taken.
>They have absolutely no choice
>to avoid this pressure.
>NOT fair chase.
Nevada eliminated them in August, I think it's a great idea .
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-05-19 AT 01:48PM (MST)[p]Yeah the cameras have gone way too far, and they need to ban them all together.
 
Personally I have never used one. A Guy useing 2-3 of them isn't bad in My OP. But outfitters that have a Hundred out is BS . My Opinion is that we have alot of advantages now days with The High powered Glass We use, Range finders . And long range rifles , GPS's ,ETC. What ever happened to just Hunting. But I am old fashion. Longest shot ever is 416 yards on an elk. Glad I had My Kaibab tag last Nov. Killed a great Buck opening day and end of story. Good luck to the 75 with tag on the West side this year.....BULL!
 
I dont know why you would ban a camera ?? If water is in short supply it does NOT take a rocket scientist to figure out where the critters are gonna get a drink !!! Those water sources are going to be death magnets to any critters drinking during shooting hours , all trail cams do is give you an idea of what animals are using the water & when.I had 4 trail cams setup on a killer wallow/water hole 4 years ago 20 plus bulls on the 4 cams before season a few days before the season opener I pulled all but 1 cam. NEVER saw a single one of the 20 plus bulls the entire 30 day season during shooting hrs. the one remaining cam showed the bulls hitting it between 930 PM & 3 AM . Only thing those cams did was Piss me off !! I can honestly say the animals & areas I hunt have NOT been affected by any of the cams I have had out ...
 
I agree with you 100% Littlebaler.

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As somebody who uses trail cameras and just returned from hunting 12AW early rifle, the bucks in my camera pics are still alive on the Kaibab. We did shoot at a buck which I had a photo of from August. But we found that buck four miles away from my camera. It is frustrating seeing so many cameras around water especially in a year like this. However, the cagey old bucks from my trail camera photos have learned to outwit guides and hunters almost always. From what I experienced 95% of the big Kaibab bucks that were alive in August are still breathing today. I only saw two nice bucks killed by hunters. Overwhelmingly what I saw killed were immature deer being shot. We choked on tag soup due to a busted scope and no backup gun. For years to come I will enjoy the trail camera photos from 2019.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-07-19 AT 02:55PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-07-19 AT 02:54?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Nov-07-19 AT 02:53?PM (MST)

>As somebody who uses trail cameras
>and just returned from hunting
>12AW early rifle, the bucks
>in my camera pics are
>still alive on the Kaibab.
>We did shoot at a
>buck which I had a
>photo of from August. But
>we found that buck four
>miles away from my camera.
>It is frustrating seeing so
>many cameras around water especially
>in a year like this.
>However, the cagey old bucks
>from my trail camera photos
>have learned to outwit guides
>and hunters almost always. From
>what I experienced 95% of
>the big Kaibab bucks that
>were alive in August are
>still breathing today. I only
>saw two nice bucks killed
>by hunters. Overwhelmingly what I
>saw killed were immature deer
>being shot. We choked on
>tag soup due to a
>busted scope and no backup
>gun. For years to come
>I will enjoy the trail
>camera photos from 2019.

It seems that 95 percent on the strip that got killed were on trail cam.
 
The rut is going to wipe out the big bucks during the late hunt. Road hunters killed two points during the early season. If you want to gripe about killing old deer take aim at the number of late season tags.
 
I believe Trail Cams will be restricted, or banned in Arizona it's just matter of time. I enjoy using them, but there's no doubt in my mind there's a major advantage in harvesting an animal or trophy using them. Sure there's an advantage to using the advanced scopes, rangefinders etc, but it still requires you to be present, practice, and use your own hunting skills. To use a trail cam it requires no hunting skills, no practice, and most importantly you don't have to be present in the field to gain knowledge which is not fair chase IMO and is the reason why they should be banned.
 
They had 100 late tags last year on 12A weest. Only 75 this Year. I think that is an OK #. No body had trouble last year with 100, Including Me. The early hunt isn't meant to be a Trophy hunt. Some wanna make it that but its not. I know some Good hunters who have a tough time on the early one..............BULL!
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-10-19 AT 10:07PM (MST)[p]>They had 100 late tags last
>year on 12A weest. Only
>75 this Year. I think
>that is an OK #.
>No body had trouble last
>year with 100, Including Me.
>The early hunt isn't meant
>to be a Trophy hunt.
>Some wanna make it that
>but its not. I know
>some Good hunters who have
>a tough time on the
>early one..............BULL!


With all of the horrible mule deer units in the state they could stand to have a few quality units.
 
They do . The late Hunts North of the River. And allways asome Big Muleys taken in the desert, Just gott do Your home work.........BULL!
 
>I believe Trail Cams will be
>restricted, or banned in Arizona
>it's just matter of time.
>I enjoy using them, but
>there's no doubt in my
>mind there's a major advantage
>in harvesting an animal or
>trophy using them. Sure there's
>an advantage to using the
>advanced scopes, rangefinders etc, but
>it still requires you to
>be present, practice, and use
>your own hunting skills. To
>use a trail cam it
>requires no hunting skills, no
>practice, and most importantly you
>don't have to be present
>in the field to gain
>knowledge which is not fair
>chase IMO and is the
>reason why they should be
>banned.

I agree
 

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