Hey Darktimber, I didn't "bash" anybody for using a .243 for elk hunting. I said I wouldn't, and neither will my kids. Shot placement isn't always perfect when elk hunting. So what? YOU are bashing the "ultra". Why? You said I had a problem with shot placement. I can assure you I do not. I don't shoot from my pickup, and I don't post about losing a bull. I place shots where the cartridge I use will kill. Perfect or not. mtmuley
.243
- Thread starter elkbow8
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one_dryboot
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+1 mtmuley
D
Darktimber
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I wasn't bashing you. My apologies if that is how it came out. Just saying there is a lot of large bore guns out there wounding game to because it gives some people false confidence. I wasn't putting down a larger caliber in any way. I stated that there are better calibers than .243 for elk hunting. Just saying that in a good situation, it is an effective caliber. Hung to many quarters to say different about it.
J
JohnTaro12
Guest
Cow or Bull hunt?
I have taken several JR's from my family for cow elk and they always use my .243.
Its all about accuracy right? Then theres no need to hand them a rifle they are scared of.
Let them get comfortable with a .243, use a good bullet, bipod and get them under 200 yards.
I have seen several elk taken with a .243, recovered everthing we've drawn blood on and never had a track job over 100 yards.
Just my opinion
I have taken several JR's from my family for cow elk and they always use my .243.
Its all about accuracy right? Then theres no need to hand them a rifle they are scared of.
Let them get comfortable with a .243, use a good bullet, bipod and get them under 200 yards.
I have seen several elk taken with a .243, recovered everthing we've drawn blood on and never had a track job over 100 yards.
Just my opinion
Zeke
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LAST EDITED ON Dec-28-11 AT 11:44AM (MST)[p]We all agree that a .243 Win will kill elk under ideal conditions (no excitement, broad-side, under 200 yds, good bullet, etc).
BUT,
If I had to forgo all the kills I've make, which are over 200 yards and also pass on all the quartering shots, I'd have missed out on about 20+ elk kills. Think about it for a minute, it's damn hard to get within 200 yards with the classic broad-side shot on a herd of elk and there's no need to do it if using a more capable elk gun.
If you use a bit more gun you could extend the effective range to 300+, even for a youth hunter. My youngest daughter killed a cow this year at 410 yards with a 300 WSM 150 TTSX, one shot, no wind, lots of time, perfect setup. The bullet went to and through the vitals and was recovered on the far shoulder. Perfection!
Limit her to 200 yards.... silly.
At least step up to a 25-06, 270, 280, 7mm-08. You can load these with lighter, high quality bullets with a light powder charge and any young hunter would find them pleasant and more effective than a shoulder shot with a .243
Just my 2 cents...backed up with lots of elk kills.
Zeke
BUT,
If I had to forgo all the kills I've make, which are over 200 yards and also pass on all the quartering shots, I'd have missed out on about 20+ elk kills. Think about it for a minute, it's damn hard to get within 200 yards with the classic broad-side shot on a herd of elk and there's no need to do it if using a more capable elk gun.
If you use a bit more gun you could extend the effective range to 300+, even for a youth hunter. My youngest daughter killed a cow this year at 410 yards with a 300 WSM 150 TTSX, one shot, no wind, lots of time, perfect setup. The bullet went to and through the vitals and was recovered on the far shoulder. Perfection!
Limit her to 200 yards.... silly.
At least step up to a 25-06, 270, 280, 7mm-08. You can load these with lighter, high quality bullets with a light powder charge and any young hunter would find them pleasant and more effective than a shoulder shot with a .243
Just my 2 cents...backed up with lots of elk kills.
Zeke
Zeke---Another good post! I'd bet that I could take a youngster out with my 25-06 and they would have no more problem using it than a .243 and it's handloaded to almost max with 117 grain Hornadys. As you mentioned, with the factory ammo that is out there now for those rifles you mentioned, there is no reason to back a kid or lady way down to a .243 for elk---JMHO!
hossblur
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My first gun was a Savage 99c in .308, open sights. Kicked like a FREAKING MULE. First deer I hit right behind the ear, dropped like a brick. The recoil of that gun was horrible!! I was 14. I am now 6'5, way past the 250lbs mark and I am still sensitive to recoil, I think because of that start. The point is this.
1. Your kid hunting elk with you using a bb gun is a great idea. The most important thing in your post is your hunting with your kid.
2. I went with that 99c because my dad was raising 3 kids on a construction worker salary, and he could trade some work for it. Kids are expensive, so what we wish for and what we can get are two different things.
3. Hunting with your kid is the most important part, guns are just tools.
4. I was a kid, when I shot that first deer, all the bullet placement BS went out the door. My heart was doing 500 beats per minute, I was jacked I I knew I could throw out 4 .308 with that lever in no time flat. Lead was going to fly! Luckily the first one hit, right behind the ear(good shot, if only I wasn't aiming for the chest).
5. Hunting with your kid is the most important.
6. Dad hunted with .303 brittish. Grandpa a 30-40, uncles all rocked 30-30's. No one had scopes. No one spent a ton on specialty bullets. All of them killed plenty, BUT by god we all had fun.
7. Spending time with your kid hunting is the most important part. If they shoot a .243, good enough. Any guy that comes in here asking is ethical enough to want to do whats best. I believe we owe the animal our best effort. If your best effort is a kid with a .243 you did your job. If it will satisfy the geeks and alpha males you can get "ultra mag" engraved next to the .243 on the barrel.
8. I love guns, I would love to buy one a week, BUT see point 6. Take that kid, kill an elk, and have a blast!!!
When they came for the road hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the oppurtunists I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the public land hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for me there was no one left to say anything!
1. Your kid hunting elk with you using a bb gun is a great idea. The most important thing in your post is your hunting with your kid.
2. I went with that 99c because my dad was raising 3 kids on a construction worker salary, and he could trade some work for it. Kids are expensive, so what we wish for and what we can get are two different things.
3. Hunting with your kid is the most important part, guns are just tools.
4. I was a kid, when I shot that first deer, all the bullet placement BS went out the door. My heart was doing 500 beats per minute, I was jacked I I knew I could throw out 4 .308 with that lever in no time flat. Lead was going to fly! Luckily the first one hit, right behind the ear(good shot, if only I wasn't aiming for the chest).
5. Hunting with your kid is the most important.
6. Dad hunted with .303 brittish. Grandpa a 30-40, uncles all rocked 30-30's. No one had scopes. No one spent a ton on specialty bullets. All of them killed plenty, BUT by god we all had fun.
7. Spending time with your kid hunting is the most important part. If they shoot a .243, good enough. Any guy that comes in here asking is ethical enough to want to do whats best. I believe we owe the animal our best effort. If your best effort is a kid with a .243 you did your job. If it will satisfy the geeks and alpha males you can get "ultra mag" engraved next to the .243 on the barrel.
8. I love guns, I would love to buy one a week, BUT see point 6. Take that kid, kill an elk, and have a blast!!!
When they came for the road hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the oppurtunists I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the public land hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for me there was no one left to say anything!
huntindad4
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Even though I don't believe in the .243 as an elk cartridge (just because you can doesn't mean you should) there is a lot of Good in what hossblur's post above says.
If it's all you can do to get that kid out hunting then by all means make it work, in the most ethical way you can. Quality bullet, tons of practice and stress shot placement and keep the range reasonable.
Bill
Kill the buck that makes YOU happy!
If it's all you can do to get that kid out hunting then by all means make it work, in the most ethical way you can. Quality bullet, tons of practice and stress shot placement and keep the range reasonable.
Bill
Kill the buck that makes YOU happy!
LAST EDITED ON Jan-01-12 AT 01:07PM (MST)[p]
There's one he** of a lot of good in that post repeating about the kid getting out and hunting with relatives, BUT what about when that kid starts crying because that big bull he shot shakes off that little .243 and takes off with little or no sign for them to follow up and take him home! I can hear it now: "Geez, we're sure (name) put that bullet RIGHT where it was supposed to go and that bull took off like(name)shot him with his Red Ryder!". Even our expert marksman in this thread using a good bullet stated that bull he hit just stood there like he wasn't even hit and he kept on shooting until it went down. Could a kid do that? I think we need to think just as much about the bad that can happen to a majestic animal if everything doesn't go just right in the scenario we're talking about than just the kid having a good time!
There's one he** of a lot of good in that post repeating about the kid getting out and hunting with relatives, BUT what about when that kid starts crying because that big bull he shot shakes off that little .243 and takes off with little or no sign for them to follow up and take him home! I can hear it now: "Geez, we're sure (name) put that bullet RIGHT where it was supposed to go and that bull took off like(name)shot him with his Red Ryder!". Even our expert marksman in this thread using a good bullet stated that bull he hit just stood there like he wasn't even hit and he kept on shooting until it went down. Could a kid do that? I think we need to think just as much about the bad that can happen to a majestic animal if everything doesn't go just right in the scenario we're talking about than just the kid having a good time!
huntindad4
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Not gonna argue your post Topgun, no doubt it's not an optimal scenario (.243 on elk) I am agreeing only if it was a matter of not being able to make the hunt at all and yes I know the risk of a bad outcome I just feel our future as hunters depends on our youth and it is costly to raise them and take them and make it happen but if there is ANY way to use a better suited caliber it SHOULD BE DONE!
Even if it is the ONLY way I wouldn't necessarily agree with it, I just wouldn't judge without knowing the whole situation and the parties involved.
Point is moot though cuz the OP has said he is getting a new gun for the task so.............
Bill
Kill the buck that makes YOU happy!
Even if it is the ONLY way I wouldn't necessarily agree with it, I just wouldn't judge without knowing the whole situation and the parties involved.
Point is moot though cuz the OP has said he is getting a new gun for the task so.............
Bill
Kill the buck that makes YOU happy!
I, myself, am very involved with the NWTF in getting kids and women involved in the outdoors, so I'm trying to look at this from more than one angle. The good thing is, as you mentioned, that it appears there is a good chance that the OP will buy a bigger caliber. I would think the 7mm-08 that is really getting popular, or even the 30-06 loaded with the lighter recoiling loads to get the kid started, would be the way to go. Hopefully, everything will work out and we'll be seeing some pictures of a successful hunt next Fall!
Gator
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I heard from a friend brother's uncle that Deer1975 killed a huge elk with a 243 on the Dutton this year. Any truth to it.
"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
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"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
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dwayneb
Guest
After reading so many opinions it reminded me of the "repeater" from super troopers...i think most everyone agrees the .243 is a capable elk round if the shooter puts the shot where it counts out to 200-300 yds max, so if your kid can do that cool, if not get him/her a .30 caliber they can handle, a good quality bullet, and practice practice practice. As with all shots even if your using a .30 cal if you don't place it well you will be heal sole expressing it after a wounded animal. Good luck with your hunt, im sure you have plenty of info to make a decision. In the end if you can get your youth shooting during the summer he/she should be ready to place the shot where it counts regardless of the caliber they are using. Main thing is to ensure they are comfortable, confident, and capable of handling the caliber they are shooting.
I must be doing something wrong, because I'm about 1400 ft. lbs. off the "Generally Accepted Minimum" with my 100 gr. projectiles from my Admiral!!
My 2 elk only went 45 yards before killing over...ANYONE know how to boost my "Foot Pounds" so I can drop that next elk in it's tracks???
I do know one thing...I would never try a 400 yard shot on one of those big beasts...without Ballistic Turrets on my sight!!
LOL...Sorry guys, couldn't resist!!
I agree with the statement, "Use the biggest gun he can comfortably and [bold][underline]ACCURATELY[bold/][underline/] shoot" and just limit the shooting distance with the smaller Caliber. Hell, getting close is more fun than shooting across 4 canyons anyway...let it be about the ENTIRE experience. IMHO
I remember a trick my dad did when I was shooting a smaller Caliber and he wanted to bump me up to a bigger gun after I proved my accuracy/patience with shooting...He would shoot next to me with his BiG'UN (pun intended) and when it was his turn to take out targets etc, he would just hoot and holler at his "bullseye" hits and be all jolly about how much FUN that gun was to shoot. Pretty soon (like in that movie "Inception "), he had my subconscious thinkin "I need to be having fun and be cool like dad." Not too long after, I was begging to shoot that bigger gun and prove that I was having as much fun as him and could handle that bigger rifle. Didn't take too long til that smaller caliber seemed too small for me.
?-ERock-> ?
My 2 elk only went 45 yards before killing over...ANYONE know how to boost my "Foot Pounds" so I can drop that next elk in it's tracks???
I do know one thing...I would never try a 400 yard shot on one of those big beasts...without Ballistic Turrets on my sight!!
LOL...Sorry guys, couldn't resist!!
I agree with the statement, "Use the biggest gun he can comfortably and [bold][underline]ACCURATELY[bold/][underline/] shoot" and just limit the shooting distance with the smaller Caliber. Hell, getting close is more fun than shooting across 4 canyons anyway...let it be about the ENTIRE experience. IMHO
I remember a trick my dad did when I was shooting a smaller Caliber and he wanted to bump me up to a bigger gun after I proved my accuracy/patience with shooting...He would shoot next to me with his BiG'UN (pun intended) and when it was his turn to take out targets etc, he would just hoot and holler at his "bullseye" hits and be all jolly about how much FUN that gun was to shoot. Pretty soon (like in that movie "Inception "), he had my subconscious thinkin "I need to be having fun and be cool like dad." Not too long after, I was begging to shoot that bigger gun and prove that I was having as much fun as him and could handle that bigger rifle. Didn't take too long til that smaller caliber seemed too small for me.
?-ERock-> ?
hossblur
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Just for kicks and giggles with the .243 being to small and slow for elk, should we end archery hunting for elk?? Last I checked the 243 is faster, which would mean more velocity, correct?? Again, I think we owe the animal our best effort, but I would take the 243 over the carbon express any day of the week. Putting it that way kinda shows the rediculousness of these "too small" arguments, doesn't it?
When they came for the road hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the oppurtunists I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the public land hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for me there was no one left to say anything!
When they came for the road hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the oppurtunists I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the public land hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for me there was no one left to say anything!
travishunter3006
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Hossblur,
A friggen BB gun shoots faster than a bow. I hope you have fun on your next elk hunt with your thought process. A 243 is shooting an 85-105 gr bullet around 300-3500 fps. my Hoyt is shooting 480gr gold tips with the Tekan 100gr BH at 270 FPS ( I only shoot 62 pounds cuz I'm a retarded 23 yr old with arthritis ) A gun kills a deer doing one of 2 things or a combo of the 2: 1. It kills by hydrostatic shock 2. It cuts/explodes vital organs/veins/arteries.
A bow's primary function is to creat only one thing, Massive hemoraging resulting in a drop in the animals blood pressure and or a fatal loss of blood.
My bow shoots sub sonic and will never creat the hydrostatic shock like a bullet out of a high velocity rifle, but a 243 isn't going to creat a 2 inch wound channel and make a big ol' nast stinky bull bleed like a garden hose either...
apples and oranges
It was a big bodied 2 point. (this is my signature)
A friggen BB gun shoots faster than a bow. I hope you have fun on your next elk hunt with your thought process. A 243 is shooting an 85-105 gr bullet around 300-3500 fps. my Hoyt is shooting 480gr gold tips with the Tekan 100gr BH at 270 FPS ( I only shoot 62 pounds cuz I'm a retarded 23 yr old with arthritis
) A gun kills a deer doing one of 2 things or a combo of the 2: 1. It kills by hydrostatic shock 2. It cuts/explodes vital organs/veins/arteries. A bow's primary function is to creat only one thing, Massive hemoraging resulting in a drop in the animals blood pressure and or a fatal loss of blood.
My bow shoots sub sonic and will never creat the hydrostatic shock like a bullet out of a high velocity rifle, but a 243 isn't going to creat a 2 inch wound channel and make a big ol' nast stinky bull bleed like a garden hose either...
apples and oranges
It was a big bodied 2 point. (this is my signature)
BuzzH
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-12 AT 09:01AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-12 AT 08:59?AM (MST)
a 243 isn't going
>to creat a 2 inch
>wound channel and make a
>big ol' nast stinky bull
>bleed like a garden hose
>either...
>
Bullchit....pure bullchit.
Just for conversation, how many wound channels have you seen produced on elk by a 243?...or on deer?....or on antelope....or....
hydrostatic shock???
Laffin'.
a 243 isn't going
>to creat a 2 inch
>wound channel and make a
>big ol' nast stinky bull
>bleed like a garden hose
>either...
>
Bullchit....pure bullchit.
Just for conversation, how many wound channels have you seen produced on elk by a 243?...or on deer?....or on antelope....or....
hydrostatic shock???
Laffin'.
Zeke
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Well, aren't we a bunch of know-it-alls?
I just helped a friend with his daughters science project. It was about trajectory and penetration with various .243 bullets.
Enough to say that if you hit an elk in the shoulder you'll end up with a shoulder wound! Period! (9" penetration in "elk" type bone and meat)
Call it what you want Mr buzz but bullet upset and tissue displacement is what kills with a rifle bullet (it shocks the elk's systems, or should with a big enough gun). The .243 doesn't have enough penetration on a quartering shot to reach the vitals with predictable regularity.
The quartering shot is pure magic with an elk cartridge!
Zeke
I just helped a friend with his daughters science project. It was about trajectory and penetration with various .243 bullets.
Enough to say that if you hit an elk in the shoulder you'll end up with a shoulder wound! Period! (9" penetration in "elk" type bone and meat)
Call it what you want Mr buzz but bullet upset and tissue displacement is what kills with a rifle bullet (it shocks the elk's systems, or should with a big enough gun). The .243 doesn't have enough penetration on a quartering shot to reach the vitals with predictable regularity.
The quartering shot is pure magic with an elk cartridge!
Zeke
BuzzH
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-12 AT 03:10PM (MST)[p]Laffin'...
Zeke said, "I just helped a friend with his daughters science project. It was about trajectory and penetration with various .243 bullets."
Even more funny is the results of the "science project"...
Zekes friends kids science project results:
"Enough to say that if you hit an elk in the shoulder you'll end up with a shoulder wound! Period! (9" penetration in "elk" type bone and meat)"
Frickin' hilarious...
Lucky for this bull, he died well before you, and your friends kid did your science project...
My Dad and Brother with a bull I shot with a 6mm remington and 100 grain nosler partition...Jumped him from a bed while deer hunting and didnt hesitate to shoot him on the run at 80 yards. Broke both shoulders and flattened him on the spot.
The hydrostatic shot got him, even with a .243 wound channel of less than 2"...as clearly the .243 is only capable of 9" of penetration and wound channels less than 2".
Another poor victim that didnt get the science project report.
120 yards, broke the on shoulder and exited behind the off shoulder. Made it maybe 30 yards before becoming a victim of hydrostatic shock via .243 100 grain partition:
Just for the record Zeke, how many elk have you personally killed with a .243? Deer? Antelope?
I bet none...
Zeke said, "I just helped a friend with his daughters science project. It was about trajectory and penetration with various .243 bullets."
Even more funny is the results of the "science project"...
Zekes friends kids science project results:
"Enough to say that if you hit an elk in the shoulder you'll end up with a shoulder wound! Period! (9" penetration in "elk" type bone and meat)"
Frickin' hilarious...
Lucky for this bull, he died well before you, and your friends kid did your science project...
My Dad and Brother with a bull I shot with a 6mm remington and 100 grain nosler partition...Jumped him from a bed while deer hunting and didnt hesitate to shoot him on the run at 80 yards. Broke both shoulders and flattened him on the spot.
The hydrostatic shot got him, even with a .243 wound channel of less than 2"...as clearly the .243 is only capable of 9" of penetration and wound channels less than 2".
Another poor victim that didnt get the science project report.
120 yards, broke the on shoulder and exited behind the off shoulder. Made it maybe 30 yards before becoming a victim of hydrostatic shock via .243 100 grain partition:
Just for the record Zeke, how many elk have you personally killed with a .243? Deer? Antelope?
I bet none...
Zeke
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Impressive buzzcut! I believe you when you said they were killed as you stated.
I'll take you up on the bet however. Except for the elk I used the 243 exclusively for the first 15 years of big game hunting. At the time I used a .270 for elk and bear.
Now (past 30 years) I have a goal to shoot the BEST round for the animals I hunt. The 6mm is not amoung the group for elk.
If you need help with the math that's 45 years of big game hunting!
I still have 2 .243 wins and a 6mm WSM wildcat. I LOVE THE .243 caliber for everything except elk size critters.
Lets compare kills, trophys, shooting etc any day you wish if you think your experiences are so superior to mine.
Best regards,
Zeke
PS: I have some really old trophy photos when I wore those silly high-top ball caps too. I've been around the ole block too. LMAO
I'll take you up on the bet however. Except for the elk I used the 243 exclusively for the first 15 years of big game hunting. At the time I used a .270 for elk and bear.
Now (past 30 years) I have a goal to shoot the BEST round for the animals I hunt. The 6mm is not amoung the group for elk.
If you need help with the math that's 45 years of big game hunting!
I still have 2 .243 wins and a 6mm WSM wildcat. I LOVE THE .243 caliber for everything except elk size critters.
Lets compare kills, trophys, shooting etc any day you wish if you think your experiences are so superior to mine.
Best regards,
Zeke
PS: I have some really old trophy photos when I wore those silly high-top ball caps too. I've been around the ole block too. LMAO
Zeke
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Yes you win on the .243 on elk experience! I've not used one on elk and never will but you can all you wish.
You still lost on your bet because I've used and still use the .243 and I've owned one, in various forms, for 45+ years.
All my elk kills have been with the 270 win, 7mm Rem mag, 300 win, 300WSM, 280 rem, 325 WSM, 300 RUM, 338 win, 340 wby. OOPS I did kill one with a 25-06 too but it's not my first choice either but with a 120 gr+/- Barnes or Nosler (like you used on elk) it would be OK.
If it was the only gun I could get my hands on then I'd use the .243 but I've always had the option to used something larger, so I did.
You seem to think you know a lot about me. If you've killed so many big game animals I'd bet you don't use a .243 CURRENTLY on elk either.
I don't know how we'll ever settle the killed critters bet unless we sit down together. I'd share some stories with you any time you wish. We might not agree on everything but it's always nice to meet with a passionate hunting brother.
Best to ya Buzz,
Zeke
You still lost on your bet because I've used and still use the .243 and I've owned one, in various forms, for 45+ years.
All my elk kills have been with the 270 win, 7mm Rem mag, 300 win, 300WSM, 280 rem, 325 WSM, 300 RUM, 338 win, 340 wby. OOPS I did kill one with a 25-06 too but it's not my first choice either but with a 120 gr+/- Barnes or Nosler (like you used on elk) it would be OK.
If it was the only gun I could get my hands on then I'd use the .243 but I've always had the option to used something larger, so I did.
You seem to think you know a lot about me. If you've killed so many big game animals I'd bet you don't use a .243 CURRENTLY on elk either.
I don't know how we'll ever settle the killed critters bet unless we sit down together. I'd share some stories with you any time you wish. We might not agree on everything but it's always nice to meet with a passionate hunting brother.
Best to ya Buzz,
Zeke
BuzzH
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I've never said the .243's are the best elk round, but much of the crap being posted on this thread is from the do-nothing crowd who havent even shot an elk with a .243.
Less than 2" wound channels and only capable of 9" of penetration?
Seriously?
You dont need much experience to call BS on that...
Less than 2" wound channels and only capable of 9" of penetration?
Seriously?
You dont need much experience to call BS on that...
Zeke
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You're right again! Most folks have not killed elk with a .243. They use a bigger gun and for good reason.
We could recount my deer, antelope and coyote kills and the bullet performance on them with the 243. This has lead me to the decision (LONG AGO) that they are not permier elk guns, not even close. They will kill elk but not under every encountered usual situation. Hell man, I killed a deer with a .22 LR but it's not a deer gun. I've killed over 25 half-ton animals (moo cows) with a .22 LR but I wouldn't hunt half ton animals with it.
As for the "do-nothing crowd" comment. You'd better point that elsewhere since I'm pertty sure it doesn't apply to me.
Zeke
We could recount my deer, antelope and coyote kills and the bullet performance on them with the 243. This has lead me to the decision (LONG AGO) that they are not permier elk guns, not even close. They will kill elk but not under every encountered usual situation. Hell man, I killed a deer with a .22 LR but it's not a deer gun. I've killed over 25 half-ton animals (moo cows) with a .22 LR but I wouldn't hunt half ton animals with it.
As for the "do-nothing crowd" comment. You'd better point that elsewhere since I'm pertty sure it doesn't apply to me.
Zeke
BuzzH
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-12 AT 05:24PM (MST)[p]Zeke,
You're making stuff up again, I've yet to hear anyone say that a .243 is a "permier elk gun".
Its pure BS and an out-right lie though to claim that a .243 makes less than a 2" wound channel and only pentrates 9".
If that was the case, the .243 would be hard pressed to kill a coyote...and wouldnt be near enough for antelope and deer.
Thats crap, I've shot more than a few antelope and deer, a bighorn sheep, and also a black bear...and many from less than ideal angles with a .243/6mm. Distances out to 400ish yards and as close as 10 yards. I've recovered a total of 5 bullets...1 nosler partition, 4 old style nosler solid bases in deer. Never recovered one from an antelope...and never recovered one from the 3 elk I killed with one either.
Hardly the results of caliber you claim cant penetrate but 9" and the other dude claiming they only produce a 2" wound channel.
Pure bullchit...
You're making stuff up again, I've yet to hear anyone say that a .243 is a "permier elk gun".
Its pure BS and an out-right lie though to claim that a .243 makes less than a 2" wound channel and only pentrates 9".
If that was the case, the .243 would be hard pressed to kill a coyote...and wouldnt be near enough for antelope and deer.
Thats crap, I've shot more than a few antelope and deer, a bighorn sheep, and also a black bear...and many from less than ideal angles with a .243/6mm. Distances out to 400ish yards and as close as 10 yards. I've recovered a total of 5 bullets...1 nosler partition, 4 old style nosler solid bases in deer. Never recovered one from an antelope...and never recovered one from the 3 elk I killed with one either.
Hardly the results of caliber you claim cant penetrate but 9" and the other dude claiming they only produce a 2" wound channel.
Pure bullchit...
BuzzH
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 6,082
Just checked my hunting journal/notes, purely for conversation.
I've shot 27 antelope, 26 deer (both mule deer and wtail), 3 elk, 1 bighorn, and 1 black bear total with a 6mm/.243.
Recovered 5 bullets out of 57 animals.
My younger brother has probably shot at least 35-40 antelope/deer with a 6mm as well. Dont recall him ever recovering a bullet...
I've shot 27 antelope, 26 deer (both mule deer and wtail), 3 elk, 1 bighorn, and 1 black bear total with a 6mm/.243.
Recovered 5 bullets out of 57 animals.
My younger brother has probably shot at least 35-40 antelope/deer with a 6mm as well. Dont recall him ever recovering a bullet...
LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-12 AT 06:40PM (MST)[p]So 3 dead elk out of 58 animals are what you've shot with that caliber! I think that tells us and backs up your statement that you are in basic agreement with us that the .243 isn't the best for elk. We're not even talking about those smaller animals that the .243 was designed for, but your numbers speak for themselves and basically tells us that you use a bigger caliber for elk like we say should be used. I won't argue with you at all on the 2" and 9" comments because I agree that with the proper bonded bullet you should normally get more than 9" of penetration if it doesn't hit heavy bone. I've read articles by some pretty well know and respected guys over the years and most all of them say that for every elk killed with a .243 that there is probably another that went away wounded. I don't believe you can say that if you move up into the 30 and bigger calibers. I love the .243 and it's a great "LITTLE" caliber for the other animals you mentioned and smaller critters like yotes!
BuzzH
Long Time Member
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- 6,082
LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-12 AT 06:49PM (MST)[p]All I know is I could easily use nothing but a .243 for elk for the rest of my hunting days and never feel like it wasnt up for the task...
I hunt with a friend, who's in his 70's, thats killed over 20 elk with a .243, got tired of lugging his "big" rifle...a 30/06, which he's also shot about 20+ elk with.
Try telling him, and the 20+ dead elk, the .243 isnt an elk rifle.
BTW, he shoots them in the shoulder/lungs with core locs from a green box...
I hunt with a friend, who's in his 70's, thats killed over 20 elk with a .243, got tired of lugging his "big" rifle...a 30/06, which he's also shot about 20+ elk with.
Try telling him, and the 20+ dead elk, the .243 isnt an elk rifle.
BTW, he shoots them in the shoulder/lungs with core locs from a green box...
Again I won't argue that it can't do the job when used by a person with experience who knows what they're doing (picks their shots like you mentioned and keeps the distance reasonable). With the experience I think you have from the limited time I've known you on a couple sites, I would not argue with your opening sentence either! This thread actually started in regards to a youth going on his first elk hunt and I sure wouldn't include him in what we're talking about.
BuzzH
Long Time Member
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- 6,082
I would include a kid...the couple most important things that a kid...or adult...must do is making sure they plant a bullet right where it needs to go.
You should also be teaching kids to get a proper rest and take only high percentage broad-side shots at reasonable ranges. Thats the name of the game.
Too many expect little johnie/susie to be whacking elk at 600 yards with a 30/378 on hard quartering shots their first year out.
Its tough to get a kid shooting consistently with rifles that kick them to death. Go shoot with them sometime and you'll see it.
Lots of youngsters, both boys and girls, are about maxed out with the recoil of a .243. If they're being coached properly, they'll have no problem killing elk with a .243.
You should also be teaching kids to get a proper rest and take only high percentage broad-side shots at reasonable ranges. Thats the name of the game.
Too many expect little johnie/susie to be whacking elk at 600 yards with a 30/378 on hard quartering shots their first year out.
Its tough to get a kid shooting consistently with rifles that kick them to death. Go shoot with them sometime and you'll see it.
Lots of youngsters, both boys and girls, are about maxed out with the recoil of a .243. If they're being coached properly, they'll have no problem killing elk with a .243.
Zeke
Long Time Member
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- 10,604
Well buzz,
Here we are. Back to the beginning... where it all started.
Like everyone has said, you and I agree, with the right bullet (Noslers are great in that gun) in the right spot a 6mm pill will kill an elk. I said that way back when in this thread.
I would love to compare notes some day, but alas, it probably will never happen.
If you look back in the thread you'll see I never said a word about a 2" wound channel and I never atributed the word premier to anything you said. Just setting some facts straight for you.
I will stand by every word I said because it ain't all book learnin' here for me either.
We agree on more points than those upon which we disagree. We both just have strong opinions. All my kids started with the .243 for big game....until they got to elk and by then they were very proficient with the rifle and could move up. I'm Lucky because they all love to hunt and are quite accomplished.
This dead horse is about dead enough so I'm done here. I think the poster got more info than he bargained for. I've got some coyotes to go kill with my....... 6mm WSM with 115 DTACs. It's sweet and shoots.. well... you'd have to see it to believe it I suppose.
Zeke
Here we are. Back to the beginning... where it all started.
Like everyone has said, you and I agree, with the right bullet (Noslers are great in that gun) in the right spot a 6mm pill will kill an elk. I said that way back when in this thread.
I would love to compare notes some day, but alas, it probably will never happen.
If you look back in the thread you'll see I never said a word about a 2" wound channel and I never atributed the word premier to anything you said. Just setting some facts straight for you.
I will stand by every word I said because it ain't all book learnin' here for me either.
We agree on more points than those upon which we disagree. We both just have strong opinions. All my kids started with the .243 for big game....until they got to elk and by then they were very proficient with the rifle and could move up. I'm Lucky because they all love to hunt and are quite accomplished.
This dead horse is about dead enough so I'm done here. I think the poster got more info than he bargained for. I've got some coyotes to go kill with my....... 6mm WSM with 115 DTACs. It's sweet and shoots.. well... you'd have to see it to believe it I suppose.
Zeke
LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-12 AT 09:38PM (MST)[p]Do you ever make any positive comments on a thread? I never mentioned that guy and probably haven't read two things he's ever written. It's nice that you're an expert, so why don't you put some of your expertise out on the Forums instead of just making BS comments!
travishunter3006
Very Active Member
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- 2,065
+1 TOPGUN,
BuzzH,
If you feel like hunting deer with bb gun because with the perfect shot placement and perfect distance and the panets are all alined and an angel has set himself atop your red ryder, then by all means, have at it. There is no point in arguing over this any more. I just want to know why we have to always find the smallest and/or "least" calibre to "get by" with shooting an animal.
I disagree also with what you said about youth being able to only handle the recoil of a 243...
A nice recoil pad makes my 30-06 feel like i'm shooting a marshmallow. My wife is a tiny gal and prefers the 06 to the 243 because she says it kicks less... that's an opinion coming from a 100% unbiased perspective. Those are my "science fair" results. take them or leave them..
It was a big bodied 2 point. (this is my signature)
BuzzH,
If you feel like hunting deer with bb gun because with the perfect shot placement and perfect distance and the panets are all alined and an angel has set himself atop your red ryder, then by all means, have at it. There is no point in arguing over this any more. I just want to know why we have to always find the smallest and/or "least" calibre to "get by" with shooting an animal.
I disagree also with what you said about youth being able to only handle the recoil of a 243...
A nice recoil pad makes my 30-06 feel like i'm shooting a marshmallow. My wife is a tiny gal and prefers the 06 to the 243 because she says it kicks less... that's an opinion coming from a 100% unbiased perspective. Those are my "science fair" results. take them or leave them..
It was a big bodied 2 point. (this is my signature)
Cam@strawberry
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,289
Hey buzz, i think two 400lb elk and a mature 700+lb bull are a bit different.......
unless that third one on your list is a biggun you may be mistaken.....
unless that third one on your list is a biggun you may be mistaken.....
I guess you've never figured out that you should just STFU if you don't have anything nice to say! It would seem that someone with as much expertise and information that you seem to feel you have would give a little of it out, but I know from your PM to me that you said none of us on this site are smart enough to understand anything, LOL! You are a real work of art and I'll bet your Mommy is really proud of how you deal with people that haven't done a thing to you!!!
J
justhunt
Guest
so IMO, i've always thought a 243 was to small for elk, unless your within about 150 hundred yards, i know it can be done, i know people use that caliber all the time, i use a 7MM STW, and i punched a cow 4 times in the chest at 250 yards and she still ran about hundred yards before she kicked over, if the recoil is a problem, use the coldwell dead sled, ive got one and its awseome, anyway just my two cents worth
Exactly! My buddy shot his big 357 3/8" bull two years ago that I've posted on this site and at 300+ yards he took a hit right in the boiler room with a Nosler Partition in a 7mm Mag and was getting right back up on his feet. Not taking any chances, John put another one in his chest right between the front legs to end it. That great bull would have walked away without a shot being fired if John had been carrying a .243 because it's a short range caliber, at best, for an animal like that and then you're pushing the envelope and asking for perfect results that many times may not happen. I'm also done with this thread, as I think all of us have beaten the topic to death!
LAST EDITED ON Jan-27-12 AT 08:43AM (MST)[p]You're a real pip! We're 8 for 9 on bull tags since 2006 in the LE unit where we hunt in WY and we don't use .243s. The lone tag that wasn't filled was because the guy held out for a monster and passed on a lot of nice bulls. This one was taken last October with a .270. How many have you taken with a .243 if you can answer with an honest response?
J
justhunt
Guest
WOW ELKBOW8!!! a can of worms you did open, so it seems everyone has a story (i sure do) of this caliber that caliber, deer, elk and what not, experts say this, they say that, (who is considered an elk expert anyway?) shooting charts prove this anyway you get the idea, ......bottom line is take your kid out hunting have an awesome good time, make some memeries, and hopefully you guys get an elk, lots of opinions come from personal experiences, go out and shoot an elk with a 243 (i personly wouldn't) and when the outcome is a succcess then you'll personaly know it can be done, on the other hand it could be a nightmare, and then you'll know not to do it agian,...lesson learned... good luck on the hunt!
JUST HUNT
JUST HUNT
hossblur
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,522
the arguments in here are great. If you hit a 700lb elk in the shoulder with a .243 you have a shoulder wound? If you hit the elk in the shoulder with a arrow what do you get? In order to kill by slicing an organ don't you have to get to said organs by slipping through a rib? Am I to belive if you do the same shot with the 243 it doesn't slice and organ? Which is easier for a begining hunter, a scoped rifle, or a bow? Hate to break it to you clowns but every year the butcher would come and kill our cows(all of which were way over 700 pounds) and he used a .22. Yeah it was point blank, but somehow that tiny little bullet broke through the skull and dropped cows in there tracks. My guess is that arrow to the skull won't quite do the same.
I hunt elk with a 30-06, not a 243. I watched( and heard and felt) a guy at the range this week shooting a 338 ultra mag. With as bad as he jumped shooting it there is no way that guy will kill anything smaller than a barn, but he would do much better with a 243.
When they came for the road hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the oppurtunists I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the public land hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for me there was no one left to say anything!
I hunt elk with a 30-06, not a 243. I watched( and heard and felt) a guy at the range this week shooting a 338 ultra mag. With as bad as he jumped shooting it there is no way that guy will kill anything smaller than a barn, but he would do much better with a 243.
When they came for the road hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the oppurtunists I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the public land hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for me there was no one left to say anything!
Zeke
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,604
Hoss,
I've got to agree with you on most of your points. Bullet placement is THE key. I've shot a couple dozen moo cows too, all with the 22LR but I'd think it would be quite a "clown's" stunt to hunt a 700lbs wild animal with one.
I also agree that if a guy can't shoot his rifle really well he should figure out why. If it's recoil, he should step back to a smaller gun. I've seen how a lot of guys shoot and even off a bench they're terrible. As with most cases of poor shooting, it would matter little what cartridge the crappy shooter was using. It's all about the trigger work with a rifle!
Zeke
I've got to agree with you on most of your points. Bullet placement is THE key. I've shot a couple dozen moo cows too, all with the 22LR but I'd think it would be quite a "clown's" stunt to hunt a 700lbs wild animal with one.
I also agree that if a guy can't shoot his rifle really well he should figure out why. If it's recoil, he should step back to a smaller gun. I've seen how a lot of guys shoot and even off a bench they're terrible. As with most cases of poor shooting, it would matter little what cartridge the crappy shooter was using. It's all about the trigger work with a rifle!
Zeke
travishunter3006
Very Active Member
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- 2,065
Hossblur,
Are .22's, 25 autos, 38's, .40's, .357's and 9mm's awesome enough calibers to pass through ballistics vests?
Funny that your 22 point blank won't but my bow at 45 lbs will.
People comparing bullets to arrows??? completely different ball game!
It was a big bodied 2 point. (this is my signature)
Are .22's, 25 autos, 38's, .40's, .357's and 9mm's awesome enough calibers to pass through ballistics vests?
Funny that your 22 point blank won't but my bow at 45 lbs will.
People comparing bullets to arrows??? completely different ball game!
It was a big bodied 2 point. (this is my signature)
HuntinFool
Active Member
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- 852
Jeezus, this thread has 150 posts because of why? We all know that an elk can be killed with a .243, but it definitely shouldn't be your first choice.
WillPower
Active Member
- Messages
- 255
Come on now brdhunter, that would mean having to stalk the animal up more close than when using the old .243........let's just stick to 1000+ yard shots with big guns and 100+ yard shots with super light arrows!!!
WP
"My only regret in life is setting my goals too low"
WP
"My only regret in life is setting my goals too low"
yatran
Member
- Messages
- 60
>Well, aren't we a bunch of
>know-it-alls?
>
>I just helped a friend with
>his daughters science project. It
>was about trajectory and penetration
>with various .243 bullets.
>
>Enough to say that if you
>hit an elk in the
>shoulder you'll end up with
>a shoulder wound! Period! (9"
>penetration in "elk" type bone
>and meat)
>
>Call it what you want Mr
>buzz but bullet upset and
>tissue displacement is what kills
>with a rifle bullet (it
>shocks the elk's systems, or
>should with a big enough
>gun). The .243 doesn't have
>enough penetration on a quartering
>shot to reach the vitals
>with predictable regularity.
>
>The quartering shot is pure magic
>with an elk cartridge!
>
>Zeke
interesting, I have a daughter who did a sim-U-lar science project this year. After that project which produced similar results, I'm worried about letting my 65 lb son hunt elk with the .243. Thinking about what you did with your daughter and a lighter bullet in the 300 wsm.....what about a lighter bullet in my 325 WSM with a muzzle break? In case he draws a cow tag again this year. what say you Dr. Zeke?
>know-it-alls?
>
>I just helped a friend with
>his daughters science project. It
>was about trajectory and penetration
>with various .243 bullets.
>
>Enough to say that if you
>hit an elk in the
>shoulder you'll end up with
>a shoulder wound! Period! (9"
>penetration in "elk" type bone
>and meat)
>
>Call it what you want Mr
>buzz but bullet upset and
>tissue displacement is what kills
>with a rifle bullet (it
>shocks the elk's systems, or
>should with a big enough
>gun). The .243 doesn't have
>enough penetration on a quartering
>shot to reach the vitals
>with predictable regularity.
>
>The quartering shot is pure magic
>with an elk cartridge!
>
>Zeke
interesting, I have a daughter who did a sim-U-lar science project this year. After that project which produced similar results, I'm worried about letting my 65 lb son hunt elk with the .243. Thinking about what you did with your daughter and a lighter bullet in the 300 wsm.....what about a lighter bullet in my 325 WSM with a muzzle break? In case he draws a cow tag again this year. what say you Dr. Zeke?
Zeke
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,604
LAST EDITED ON Feb-14-12 AT 11:19AM (MST)[p]>>Well, aren't we a bunch of
>>know-it-alls?
>>
>>I just helped a friend with
>>his daughters science project. It
>>was about trajectory and penetration
>>with various .243 bullets.
>>
>>Enough to say that if you
>>hit an elk in the
>>shoulder you'll end up with
>>a shoulder wound! Period! (9"
>>penetration in "elk" type bone
>>and meat)
>>
>>Call it what you want Mr
>>buzz but bullet upset and
>>tissue displacement is what kills
>>with a rifle bullet (it
>>shocks the elk's systems, or
>>should with a big enough
>>gun). The .243 doesn't have
>>enough penetration on a quartering
>>shot to reach the vitals
>>with predictable regularity.
>>
>>The quartering shot is pure magic
>>with an elk cartridge!
>>
>>Zeke
>
>interesting, I have a daughter who
>did a sim-U-lar science project
>this year. After that project
>which produced similar results, I'm
>worried about letting my 65
>lb son hunt elk with
>the .243. Thinking about what
>you did with your daughter
>and a lighter bullet in
>the 300 wsm.....what about a
>lighter bullet in my 325
>WSM with a muzzle break?
>In case he draws a
>cow tag again this year.
>what say you Dr. Zeke?
>
LOL.
Come get some 180TSX and give them a try. Use a reduced (minimum) load and the recoil would be light enough for even the smallest hunters. The muzzle brake will help too. It would work great on elk all day long with excellent penetration characteristics.
Dr. Zeke LOL
EDIT: PS; They also make a new 160 TTSX. Faster, lower recoil, cool as all get out!
>>know-it-alls?
>>
>>I just helped a friend with
>>his daughters science project. It
>>was about trajectory and penetration
>>with various .243 bullets.
>>
>>Enough to say that if you
>>hit an elk in the
>>shoulder you'll end up with
>>a shoulder wound! Period! (9"
>>penetration in "elk" type bone
>>and meat)
>>
>>Call it what you want Mr
>>buzz but bullet upset and
>>tissue displacement is what kills
>>with a rifle bullet (it
>>shocks the elk's systems, or
>>should with a big enough
>>gun). The .243 doesn't have
>>enough penetration on a quartering
>>shot to reach the vitals
>>with predictable regularity.
>>
>>The quartering shot is pure magic
>>with an elk cartridge!
>>
>>Zeke
>
>interesting, I have a daughter who
>did a sim-U-lar science project
>this year. After that project
>which produced similar results, I'm
>worried about letting my 65
>lb son hunt elk with
>the .243. Thinking about what
>you did with your daughter
>and a lighter bullet in
>the 300 wsm.....what about a
>lighter bullet in my 325
>WSM with a muzzle break?
>In case he draws a
>cow tag again this year.
>what say you Dr. Zeke?
>
LOL.
Come get some 180TSX and give them a try. Use a reduced (minimum) load and the recoil would be light enough for even the smallest hunters. The muzzle brake will help too. It would work great on elk all day long with excellent penetration characteristics.
Dr. Zeke LOL
EDIT: PS; They also make a new 160 TTSX. Faster, lower recoil, cool as all get out!
hossblur
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,522
That can only be accomplished with the Red Rider Super Mag, anything short of that is for puzzies!!
When they came for the road hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the oppurtunists I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the public land hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for me there was no one left to say anything!
When they came for the road hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the oppurtunists I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the public land hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for me there was no one left to say anything!
D
dreaminbouthuntin
Guest
No. A .243? I cant believe some of you guys used it on elk. Geezus. Kid cant shoot a 30-06? Ive seen elk run off with all calibers, but why would you put yourself in the position to lower your odds of killing it by using a .243? Velocity and shot placement are key. Add that with a .30 cal rifle and your odds just went up on killing that elk. 270's, 7mm, ect are good too, but can pack a punch on the recoil.
Best bet for the kid, 30-06.
Best bet for the kid, 30-06.
A
alpinecrick
Guest
>I's sure this topic has been
>brought up before. But I
>am interested in taking my
>nephew on a youth hunt
>next year. I may
>be opening up a can
>of worms here but is
>243. sufficient or ethical for
>that matter to hunt elk
>with. Thanks
mmmmmmmm.......apparently you have indeed opened a can of worms.
Suffice to say, I have a 243 that has accounted for 10 elk now. Three of them died at the hands of youngsters wielding that 243.
100gr NPT's, shoot them in the front half, and they die fairly quick. 30yds to 300 yds, quartering away, quarting towards, and broadside, 100gr Partitions have either landed on the offside or passed through.
Elk ain't that hard to kill if you shoot them in the right place. Shoot them in the wrong place and they can take a gruesome amount of punishment--regardless of chosen cartridge.
I've killed lots of elk--243 to 35 Whelen, including with less than stellar bullet performance. Which is why I've learned to like premium bullets. The trick is a good bullet--moderate expansion, deep penetration.
Casey
>brought up before. But I
>am interested in taking my
>nephew on a youth hunt
>next year. I may
>be opening up a can
>of worms here but is
>243. sufficient or ethical for
>that matter to hunt elk
>with. Thanks
mmmmmmmm.......apparently you have indeed opened a can of worms.
Suffice to say, I have a 243 that has accounted for 10 elk now. Three of them died at the hands of youngsters wielding that 243.
100gr NPT's, shoot them in the front half, and they die fairly quick. 30yds to 300 yds, quartering away, quarting towards, and broadside, 100gr Partitions have either landed on the offside or passed through.
Elk ain't that hard to kill if you shoot them in the right place. Shoot them in the wrong place and they can take a gruesome amount of punishment--regardless of chosen cartridge.
I've killed lots of elk--243 to 35 Whelen, including with less than stellar bullet performance. Which is why I've learned to like premium bullets. The trick is a good bullet--moderate expansion, deep penetration.
Casey
G
galvanized
Guest
If you punch it in the lungs it is dead. Dead is dead and there arent various levels to measure it. The 243 will do the job. Ive seen whitetails hit with a 300 win mag 3 or 4 times in the front half and travel 300 yards. Not all animals are the same. They are like people in the way that some have a greater will to live than others.
G
galvanized
Guest
How many elk have been killed with a 30-30. Some people think that elk cant be stopped with anything short of 300 RUM. These are the same people that say you cant kill an elk with anything short of a 60-65 pound bow. There have probably been more elk lost to larger caliber bullets than the 243. If the kid can shoot he will kill just as dead with a 243 than someone who cant shoot a 30-06. It isnt like he is shooting an elephant.
