540 Tags...

[backinthegame]

So most anyone who has read through all these SFW, etc threads will easily enough be able to see my opinions on the number of tags Utah donates (or whatever you choose to call it) to various organizations for auctions or raffles.

The idea is to raise funds for wildlife and habitat...very important, obviously.

Could the number be decreased to at least be closer to other western states (they generally average 10-30 donated tags) but still allow similar revenue to be brought in? Fewer tags...more high-dollar auctions...fewer raffles...previously donated tags go back to the general draw for the "everyman" while the guys with the means still have opportunity to buy auction tags, and revenue rolls in.

Possible?

Utah donates around 30 times the number of tags most other western states do...are we bringing in 30 times the revenue? I honestly don't know, maybe someone could also shed light on that?

 

[southslope82]

I agree 100% The average Joe, "Middle Class" feller. Out weighs the wealthy in numbers by alot. It would better the odds of drawing a tag too. Yes its great that the wealthy man can buy these tags that produce alot of $$$$$$ for wildlife but how about the rest of us that make the majority of everything else possible. Middle Class is were the majority of taxes come from.

 

[Outdoors]

My understanding is Richie Rich loves auctions since can apply the cost of the tag as a DONATION to SFW (or insert tag holder of your choice here) where if he instead bought a landowner tag in NM or CO then that is not a donation.

Definitely a supply and demand issue when are setting aside 540 tags. You could auction EVERY sheep tag and make $10,000s a tag. That is not true with the other big game species.

A state like Arizona gets a lot of money from a very few tags by agreeing to enticements like a 365 day season plus may make tags valid in all units and can use all weapons. Richie Rich might pay a $100,000 for that tag since has a chance to bag the largest cirtter walking around the entire state.

540 tags is a way to keep outfitters and guides happy. You raise money with each of the 540 tags but at the margin the tags are not generating big bucks due to so many tags and there are other places you can get a tag out West and up in Canada.

If you want to auction 20 Utah elk tags but each tag is only good for one weapon in a unit were others will be hunting at the exact same time then you will sell all 20 but obviously some will sell for much less than others. Same for deer, goat and bison and more so for pronghorn, cougar, beer and turkey.

Didn't several tags go for under $10,000 this year and some were close to $5,000? If you are getting $5,000 or so a tag then is time to stop the madness in my opinion.

 

[elkhunterUT]

I have stated my opinion pretty clearly on this over the years as well. I firmly believe there are alternative options to raise needed conservation money without stealing so many tags from the Utah general drawing (Seems Arizona, Colorado, Wyoming, Nevada, and other western states have gotten by ok and have been successful with a MUCH more scaled down model for auction/raffle tags).

It is definitely a simple supply/demand issue- the obscenely large # of Utah auction tags has actually driven down tag value. I do believe a different approach with far less conservation tags would still generate the same amount of money while giving back many tags to the general public drawing.

 

[bowhunt]

It is an absolute JOKE!

I have brought this up with the Congressmen in my area, I think we need to really unite and do something about this.

 

[PleaseDear]

http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/10_conservation_permit_list.pdf

Robb

 

[iliveinthewoods]

I think they should give max of 2 tags per area... Plain and simple, and 1 sportsman's tag and 1 governors tag... that is plenty of tags, but then it doesn't screw the guy that has put in for Pahavant for 12 years, that he won't have like 16 auction/raffle tags walking around with him. This would raise revenue per tag, and allow bigger animals to grow... IMO
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[isayNUNYA]

Liveinwoods, are you saying take the "like 16 auction tags" out of conservation permit pool and put them back into the regular draw to reduce hunting pressure for those people who draw the permit?

 

[Hawkeye]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-24-10 AT 06:20PM (MST)[p]If we are selling these 540 tags in the name of conservation then why isn't there a requirement that ALL monies raised from these tags be used for actual conservation? I have reviewed the section of the Adminstrative Code addressing Convention Permits and I could not find ANY requirement that ANY portion of funds raised from the sale of Convention Permits actually be used to benefit wildlife. (http://wildlife.utah.gov/rules/R657-55.php) We are talking about 200 permits right there. I am hoping that Don will address this apparent inconsistency at the upcoming meeting.

Hawkeye

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[utahbuck]

I agree. It is crazy that there are so many tags that are so called "donated". Does anyone know if the state receives a percent of the money raised for each tag? If they do I think this will be an uphill battle that will be hard to change. It is all about the money. Like others have said I think they need to lower the number of tags and the price will go up per tag and hopefully off set the money difference.

 

[irhuntr]

I would like to see the non hunters take part for a change and subsidise this wildlife a lot more.This number of permits is too high to be fair to us who dont make the big bucks.I also believe there must be another way to acomplish these goals and be more responsive to the average taxpayer.Dont want to see this turn into a scenario like politics have.

 

[Wes]

The state receives only 10% of the selling price of the tag. The organization that sold the tag keeps NINETY PERCENT. There is no accountability for what that organization does with their NINETY PERCENT!
Wes

 

[richardjb]

>I agree. It is crazy
>that there are so many
>tags that are so called
>"donated". Does anyone know
>if the state receives a
>percent of the money raised
>for each tag? If
>they do I think this
>will be an uphill battle
>that will be hard to
>change. It is all
>about the money. Like
>others have said I think
>they need to lower the
>number of tags and the
>price will go up per
>tag and hopefully off set
>the money difference.
The tags are not donated. The state gets paid for the tag. In my case with the Expo tag, I still have to pay the tag fee to the state. What ever the state gets from the Expo is a bonus. If everyone would stop buying chances for these tags, the Expo would go away. Is that what everyone wants?

 

[elkhunterUT]

richardjb,
The 200 expo tags are only a portion of the issue here. The much larger issue, and what I personally have a larger beef with, is the FIVE HUNDRED and FORTY (540)conservation/auction tags that are also being removed from the general drawing. If you stop and think about that # or actually see the list of tags, we should all be outraged. The 200 expo tags are generally more available to "joe public" than the 540 tags due to pricing/structure, but both present major issues in how the revenues generated from the tags are allocated, managed, and reinvested in the resource. I am with Hawkeye, in that I hope Don will address this topic head on in the upcoming March meeting with full disclosure (COMPLETE facts, figures, etc).

If I had my way, all 200 expo tags and the MAJORITY of the 540 conservation/auction tags would be put back in the general drawing so WE can ALL have a chance to get one of these tags!! I am definitely not against a handful (20-25) of auction/raffle tags, and agree some are needed to generate money from the wealthy for our wildlife, but no one can ever convince me that 540 tags is not stealing from all of us. It will be a major uphill battle to get this changed as alot of this is in law or so deeply entrenched already, but I would think this would be a fight that all of us "regular joes" would want to take on!!

 

[bucksmut]

Elkhunter
That is an interesting point. It makes me wonder how elastic the price of those 540 tags would be if the supply was cut in half to 270 tags. Would the demand from the wealthy tag buyers dictate that the prices would double from where it is now and result in no dead weight loss of revenue for wildlife/conservation funding? It seams that in most competative markets as this subject surely is, there is always some room for tweeking the supply to acheive optimal margins through product (tag) elasticity. I wonder if anyone at the DWR/SFW has ever considered or played with this?

 

[BrowningRage]

It's like those special license plates you can get with wildlife on them...
Guys get the Bull Elk because it's cool, thinking they are contributing to the elks' (or other wildlife's) conservation but the truth is they aren't...

"To generate funds for the development and preservation of NON-GAME HABITAT throughout the State of Utah."

Right off the DMV website... http://dmv.utah.gov/licensespecialplates.html#wildlife

Anyway, just because someone tells me it's going to conservation, or they paint it that way, does not mean I'm going to believe them... Don't you be fooled either...

 

[MTQuivers]

I hear lots of complaining on this post but no solutions. Instead of complaining lets hear some better solutions to raise money for wildlife. Look at ten years ago. Lots more tags now (especially OIL) than we had then. Does someone want to explain how we magically got more sheep, buffalo, goats, etc? How are we magically opening new units every year? Why are other states seeing a decline in their numbers and tags? Does anyone have an explanation other than the millions of dollars dumped into conservation by these "rich sportsman" as to why we are seeing drastic improvements in wildlife?
This post sounds like a bunch of guys with a bunch of points that have not drawn a tag in a while and they need someone to complain about! If you want to make a difference get off you butt and do something about it.

Jason Yates
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[Outdoors]

>Why are other states
>seeing a decline in their
>numbers and tags? Does anyone
>have an explanation other than
>the millions of dollars dumped
>into conservation by these "rich
>sportsman" as to why we
>are seeing drastic improvements in
>wildlife?

Overall, neighboring states have created a lot of tag opportunity the past 20 years.

Has WY, CO, MT and AZ cut tags for most species? I was of the impression tags numbers are up and I apply in several states for the past 20 years. Wolves are a big factor in parts of WY and MT. ID is depleted due to wolves. Some sickness in one of the MT sheep herds is cutting sheep tags there.

UT has struggled to fund wildlife though its regular funding. Taking a 100s of primo tags out of the draw is a poor approach but does make a nice ecosystem for guides, outfitters, consultants, SFW and every group handed one of the tags to auction/raffle.

UT's success with elk does not mean other states are not doing a good or better job at herd management for multiple species. UT seems to be mostly a one-trick pony with a handful of 400" trophy elk and the biggest of those go the Richie Rich using a big team of aides to scout, locate and guide.

 

[elkhunterUT]

MTQuivers,
Keep on drinking that Don/SFW koolaid man. Are you implying that the 540 auction tags and 200 expo tags are the SOLE reason for all of these increases in tags? If so, can you prove it with actual figures? I honestly can't say either way (and neither can you) because SFW and others, for whatever inane reason, will not share an honest accounting for what the money for these tags actually does. None of us can really answer that question with any confidence and that is sad really.

Also, please answer this question - if Utah/SFW has the silver bullet (as you imply) for solving wildlife problems through all of these auction tags, why have mule deer in Utah not seen the "drastic improvements in wildlife" that you are talking about?

 

[Hawkeye]

MTQuivers said: "I hear lots of complaining on this post but no solutions. Instead of complaining lets hear some better solutions to raise money for wildlife."

MTQuivers just hit the nail on the head--albeit inadvertently. Most of us "complainers" are concerned sportsmen just like you but we want to know that the monies generated from the sale of hundreds of tags taken out the public draw are being used for actual conservation. SFW does some good things for wildlife. However, that does not mean we should not ask any questions. I believe that SFW and other conservation groups are stewards of these public tags and funds derived therefrom, and as a result, have an obligation to provide a complete and transparent accounting as to how those funds are being used.

Just one example, I have posted the link to the Utah statute dealing with convention permits (http://wildlife.utah.gov/rules/R657-55.php) on this website several times over the last year and pointed out that, based upon my review of the statute, there is no requirement that a single red cent from the sale of the 200 convention tags actually be used for conservation. I hope I am wrong and I have overlooked something but nobody from SFW or any other group for that matter has stepped up to address this issue. If it is true that the monies generated from the raffle of those 200 tags does not have to be (and is not actually being) used for wildlife conservation, then we deserve to know.

I guess my response to MTQuivers' statement is before we go looking for additional or alternative solutions to raise money for wildlife, let's make sure the monies already being generated from the sale of hundreds of public permits is actually being used wisely and is properly accounted for. I don't think that is too much to ask of groups that are seeking our support.

Hawkeye

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