81% of Antelope Tags go to NR

[jamaro]

Hey Everybody...
I know there was some buzz on this on this website awhile ago but nobody had hard numbers... I just got them....

If you weren't outraged about the current Draw System in NM you will be now. As many of you know there have been some A-Plus Meetings around the state. They are basically trying to get input from the public regarding Antelope hunting opportunities.

Anyway, 81% of all antelope tags are going to NR. You can see the math and other information on my website.
www.thenewmexicosportsman.com

IT IS CRAZY.... On the website I have a link for those that want to take the survey and a URL of an organization that will hopefully be able to help us out.

PLEASE PLEASE take the survey contact the NM Wildlife Fed. We have a small window of time that we need to take advantage of.

Jason
www.thenewmexicosportsman.com

 

[jamaro]

Sorry about that... it is 68% I re-did my math... but it is still way to high..

j

 

[NMPaul]

68% is way to high. Especially when on average the NR in other states gets 10% or less of tags.

NMs system for getting antelope tags blows my mind and I apply in 9 other states every year.

 

[Hooked_on_Coues]

Jason,

You are spot on with this issue. This does not only apply to antelope but elk and now mule deer.

With 22% of the public tags going to NR's and an overwhelming majority of the private tags going to them also, NR's are getting a disproportionate number of New Mexico tags.

A "Freedom of Information Act" request to the Game and Fish Department would provide all the numbers, public and private. The problem is getting anything done through the Legislature. The ranchers and outfitters are making huge money, and the politicians just see the revenue the NR's bring in. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind the NR's getting an opportunity to hunt NM, but it should not be at our expense. Look at the odds of drawing a 2B third rifle hunt. A guided non-resident has almost three times better odds of drawing than a resident.

Its time to get everyone fired up about this. I think the "guide and outfitter welfare act" needs reform. I think the landowners should be compensated, but why are they making thousands on tags they get for our animals eating their grass when they pay pennies on the dollar comparably to graze their animals on public land?

This post needs attention, not just the typical rantings.

More to follow.....

 

[264winmag]

H.O.C.

Please tell me how you got to 22%

Thanks

 

[264winmag]

nevermind.
I got it.

 

[Califelkslayer]

I know you're gonna be pi$$ed when a NR offers his opinion BUT 10% unguided is not bad.

The 12% guided subsidizes the guide industry. Wyoming does this by not letting NR's hunt wilderness but most states don't.

Residents get 78% of the draw tags, not bad. Colorado 80% in prime units and 65% in others.

The LO tags go to who will pay the price, not NR's. Bought one LO tag in 36 years of hunting out of state and that was deer, Colorado.

If the amount of Landowners tags are too high and the state/resident hunters don't get anything in return, work on that.

My unpopular .02 cents

 

[Hooked_on_Coues]

Can't compare apples and oranges. Colorado has ten times the elk and deer. You can get a tag every year. Most elk hunts in NM are less than 10%. NR's are the ones that pay the price for the overwhelming majority of the tags.

If you look at elk, deer, ibex and oryx permits I think that the percentage of permits going to non-residents when you include landowner tags is way out of line with where it should be. Basically we have sold our wildlife resource to rich non-residents while our kids wait for years to draw a tag. If you figure that 90+ percent of all landowner tags go to non-residents for elk, oryx and antelope it leaves residents with a much smaller than 78% piece of the total wildlife pie.

We may not be able to change who landowners sell their permits to but we can affect where the tags in the public draw go. If we put a cap, not a set aside as currently exists, but a cap of 10% on non residents on any public draw hunt it would result more new Mexicans getting tags. Based on the draw odds report from last year it would mean NM residents would get 159 more antelope tags, 6 more sheep tags, 1824 more deer tags, 1915 more elk tags, 25 more ibex tags and 133 more oryx tags for a total of 4062 more New Mexicans who would have gotten to hunt last year. One of those could be you or your kid.

Also since the Congress passed the law that allow states to control their own hunting, the Turk decision that did not allow NM to put a cap on non-resident oryx, bighorn and ibex permits no longer applies. We can cap those hunts if we want.

Let's do away with the 12% of our license going to outfitters and instead give them to our kids. Have a 12 % set a side for youth during every hunt so kids can actually draw a tag. But, get ready for the outfitter to scream because like any other group who is used to welfare they don't like it when their entitlement program gets taken away. If they want to get tags for their clients let them buy landowner tags or have the same draw odds as the rest of us.

 

[JH]

personally, not saying i am right just my thought on the subject, is that everyone, both non residents, and residents should have to pay the total cost of a permit up front, like back when it was paper applications only, this would keep people from putting in for every hunt every year, for themselves there 20 relatives, and anyone else they know, i will admit i am one that does put in for a lot more hunts every year due to it only costing me the 8 dollar application fee up front, however if required to pay the entire fee, i know myself, as well as many people would not put in for everything all the time, this is especially true with non-residents, especially with species such as oryx, ibex, and bighorn, a couple of 1600 dollar permit fees adds up really quick, i dont necessarly agree with how permits are distrubited either, but i think this would increase draw odds, and make the distrubition somewhat fairer, just my thoughts on the matter

 

[gilamonster55]

It's all pretty funny that we can crunch numbers, compare notes, etc. (myself included) but what really needs to be done is exactly what Jason did and that's becoming more involved whether it means attending meetings and representing the hunters as Jason did; sending emails/letters/phone calls to those who need to know; taking surveys as those on Jasons http://www.thenewmexicosportsman.com/ blog or even passing the information along to more people. What REALLY needs to happen is that New Mexico hunters need to unite to show our numbers....ie clubs, groups, etc to represent hunters in these meetings........I wonder how much Dutch Salmon would have "ignored" the hunters then!

 

[gilamonster55]

By the way, good weblog Jason! http://www.thenewmexicosportsman.com/

 

[Cacher716]

H.O.C.

I think most NR understand the frustration of R not drawing tags. I'm from away and therefore one of the emeny. The percent set aside is not what I will discuss... I have no say in it. NM sets aside 22% of most tags..10% DIY and 12% Guided. We have nothing to say about who buys private tags. Residents can buy them too. How about passing a law that limits who those tags can be sold to or where they can be used-private land only? My guess is if NM went with a limit of 10% those with the money to hire guides and currently apply in the 12% pool will buy private tags when they don't draw in the regular drawing increasing the percentage of private tags going to NR. The ones hurt will be the NR like myself who wants to DIY and lack the money to hire guides (Not all NR are rich!)and even the residents that currently buy some of the private tags who will be priced out by the increased demand for those tags when more NR fail to draw becuase of a lack of a 12% pool. The guides are not going to give up clients without a fight. I understand your frustration but be careful. Not trying to knock guides but I feel the guiding industry placing a high demand on the tags is the REAL issue...not NR hunters in general. (I have been waiting for 28 years in my state for a moose tag while NR hunters get tags so I know how you feel) Good luck and good hunting.

 

[nmtaxi]

I would like to see the cap somewhere in between. I'm a resident, but enjoy hunting out of state, too. I think setting aside 15% of the tags for NR, and getting rid of the guided hunter drawing, for all species would be very reasonable.

 

[Cacher716]

Jason,

What do you propose as a solution? Since you put all private land tags that go to the highest bidders, mostly NR using guides, against the NR cap do you propose eliminating the NR draw all together?

For example a unit with 100 tags 40 public and 60 private ( Using your numbers)

If 99% of the private go to NR thru sales, not drawing, then 59 will be bought by NR. Even before NR like myself have a chance to enter a drawing 59% of that units tags (59 out of 100)are in NR hands but NRs have drawn 0% of the tags!

I have NO PROBLEM with a 10-15% NR cap on drawing tags...my state does it, but if you want to include private sales in the formula NRs will not be able to have ANY drawing. I do not have time to look up the deer and elk numbers because I'm not rich and have to leave for work in 30 minutes, but could a 15% cap be reached through private sales as well? ( Iunderstand a higher percent of private antelope tags than deer and elk but what are those numbers?)

PS NM is one of my favorite states but I have only drawn two tag there....2 archery elk tags in an unlimited unit several years ago and an archery deer tag when they were unlimited and I drew a rifle deer tag once in a limited unit and a rifle cow tag.

Happy Hunting

 

[jamaro]

First let me say thanks to GilaMonster for the compliments on the blog.. I have always said it is not about me but about hunters in NM and the SW.

What do I proposed? I am still trying to get a grasp for all the issues but lets break this down...

The reason we hunt is to manage game and for people of NM to recreate. It is not to subsidies Ranchers. Do they provide water and feed to antelope? Yes but I am pretty sure they wouldn't let there cattle die from lack of water.

When it comes down to it, the issue is money, ranchers and outfitters have been given a way to make a buck off of state owned animals. I will conceed that the reason popluations are stable is because the animals have value to the ranchers.

So how do reimbures the rancher for access to there properties and for there water/feed?

Well, I think we already have a solution. As many of you know we have a program called "Open Gate", currently a landowner can sign up for the program and he is reimbursed for giving public hunters access to there ranchers to hunt. We could expand this program and get rid of the LO tags altogether. The Ranchers get reimbursed for access/resources and hunter can hunt

Where is the problem with this? Outfitters and Guides are going to be cut out of the front part of this equation. Currently, they have a gauranteed income. Say that we get rid of LO tags, those who want a guide can still hire one if they WANT TO, but they are not going to be forced to higher a guide becuase the outfitters will no longer be able to "tie up" all the tags. In fact, this would benefit NR because they would then have the option to go guided or unguided.

So rather than having a 60/40 split, private to public tags everything would go into the same pot and NR will still get there 22%.

Okay... Now, what am I missing? Other than the Outfitters and Guides are going to rage? They pulled a fast one on us when this whole thing started so lets try to poke holes in this proposal...

Jason

 

[Ropinfool]

Great post. You've shown what we've all thought for years. I like you idea. How do we go about getting this impimented?

 

[jamaro]

Just so you guys have it, I have attached the phone numbers of the commissioners. I am pretty sure that one of these guys was replaced but this is what the website has..

Tom Arvas Work: (505) 293-3515

M.H. "Dutch" Salmon (575) 388-3763 Fax: (575) 388-5705

Alfredo Montoya Home: (505) 852-2551 Fax: (505) 747-2121

Sandy Buffett Fax: (505) 986-0339

Jim McClintic Work: (505) 271-4550 Fax: (505) 271-2472

Oscar Simpson Work: (505) 345-0117 Cell: (505) 917-2134

Leo V. Sims II Work: (575) 393-3024 Fax: (575) 393-2448

 

[Hooked_on_Coues]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-27-08 AT 08:28PM (MST)[p]Cacher,

I don't see you as the enemy, quite the contrary. I love hunting in several states. Its just getting harder to draw out of state and my own state makes it harder for me too!

I think the limit should be put on the amount charged for the tags. If the tag is given to the landowner for our animals using their land, it should reflect what the landowner pays to graze his livestock on ours. That would make it where you (or I) could afford a private tag.

Jason/Gila,

The problem with open gate is the landowners won't sign up for it and they are currently making much more under the current system. It is going to be a battle because there is so much money involved. You are right about making some noise and letting the politicians know we are NOT HAPPY.

The other huge concern I have is the youth hunts have terrible odds. We should be getting the kids into the field as a first priority. I saw an article about a USFW study that shows we have lost 1.5 million hunters over the last ten years. If that trend continues and the privatization of wildlife isn't stopped, our kids will never have the chances we have.

 

[Largo3]

Your not going to be able to tell the landowners who to sell their tags to, it has become to much a big money game. With most of the antelope on private land it is going to be hard to significantly reduce the percentage on nons.

We can do something about elk and deer permits. The law giving 22% to non-residents has to be changed by the legislature, not the commission. The hunting organizations sold the farm when they agreed to this years agao. Ask Commissioner Simpson about that, he was part of the bunch that negotiated this lovely deal with the Governor and the legislature. All of this was because there were to many non-residents hunting elk in the Gila. After the deal we now have to many almost everywhere. Also, since the outfitters were guaranteed an income they have multiplied like ticks on a cur dog.

I don't mind having a reasonable number of non-residents, but I don't think it is right that a guided non-resident has better odds of drawing than my kid! We need to cap the non-resident draw tags at 10% and do away with welfare for outfitters.

 

[Califelkslayer]

I agree with Largo on the Youth tags. Odds for NR are better than for residents cuz most people won't take their kids on out of state hunts when they can't hunt themselves. My son drew a Utah youth hunt in 04 and the biologist I talked to told me he applied both of his sons their entire youth and they never drew. My son's odds were 50% and he drew the 2nd year he applied.

As for cutting NR tags, the reality is who's gonna make up the $$$??? $768.00 for my tag and $91.00 for a resident. Gonna create 8 tags for every NR one you eliminate???? There goes your quality.

 

[Largo3]

Cali, you mis-undersood, I am saying my kid should have better odds than a guided non-resident on every hunt, not just on youth hunts.

We can easily make up the dollars by going to a system that requires everyone, resident and non, to purchase a license before they apply. $20 or so for every resident and $200 from every non-resident that applies seems to be the going rate now in most states.

This is not about being against non-residents, I hunt in several states myself whenever I can. Don't mind if you come here occassionaly, but someone should not hunt here more often than a resident because they hire an outfitter.

It is just with the 22% + the screwed up landowner system IMOP things have gotten out of balance and something needs to be adjusted back in favor of residents. Same thing that AZ went through several years ago. I believe taking the outfitter welfare allotment and giving it back to residents is a good start. Call it a license rebate.

 

[lchcguide]

take away the guided non-resident pool and give it back to the residents is a must, but you cannot control who a landowner sells the permits to. That is like telling the Wal-Mart that they can only sell groceries to residents of NM. The way this has been described to me is that the Free Trade Act would not allow it. Now maybe the state can issue to LO "resident only" tags and "whomever wishes to buy"(res or non-res) tags. Start out with 50/50 allocation on that aspect so that LO and outfitters can stay in business, and many residents may get a chance to hunt now. I can purchase antelope tags now from several landowners in the 300-400 dollar range and some would give me the tag for nothing, because they hate the stupid goats.

 

[jamaro]

Thanks guys... We need to have everybodies input so we can see all the angles. I agree that you can't tell LO who to sale there tags to, that I why I suggest we get rid of them all together and have the LO sign up with the Open Gate Program...

J

 

[Largo3]

Love the idea, but don't see it happening. When you can get $4,500 dollars for 1 bull elk tag in the Gila and then the hunters can go hunt on the forest I don't see the landowners going for it. A lot of them are making many times more than Open Gate will ever pay by selling elk tags they get for their private land to hunters that then use them on public land

I would say alter the program. Most antelope and oryx tags are already ranch only and all deer tags are private land only.

How about we make elk and oryx tags private land only (Don't see that working on antelope). That would make them worth about $1.97 on most ranches because they don't have enough private land to make it worth hunting. For those that do have enough PRIVATE land and manage for elk it would be just as profitable.

The down side to this is that many landowners would just yell depredation and start shooting elk.

 

[jamaro]

Largo... we need to stay focused... right know we have a window of opportunity to change the way Antelope are being managed not elk or anything else...

Other than the money issue do you guys see a problem with the proposal? I really need some input on this so I can have a response when I present the issue...


J

 

[Largo3]

The only thing I can think of on antelope is to apply the same 22 % non-resident criteria to private land license but applying any percentage is going to be tough to do in the current sytem where permits are alloted by ranch.

The problem with saying "other than the money issue" is that the issue boils down to money.

 

[jamaro]

Are you saying reduce the number of LO tags by 78%?

J-

 

[lchcguide]

If I was a rancher I would never sign up for the Open Gate Program. There are too many retards that do not respect the land or wildlife that can have access. The G&F can do there job of catching these people but it is up to the judges to do something with them.

The Open Gate Program does not pay near enough money. I ranch that I use to live on checked in to the program to allow hunters 7000 acres to hunt quail, dove, waterfowl, predators and even deer. They were given an offer of $1000/year. That is a joke if you ask me. The property has plenty of quail and dove to hunt, and I have killed several limits of birds there every year. The waterfowl hunting can be great or horrible. depending on how wet it has been. Coyotes are everywhere and the deer are doing extremely well.

We cannot get rid of the landowner tags. The state can however give a LO that has gotten 10 LO tags in the past, 5 that can be sold to only residents of NM, and 5 to whoever wants to buy them, as long as they are capable of possessing a license to hunt antelope.

The outfitters are not going to like it because the majority of those tags are sold to NR. My Bro-in-law will hate to see something like this happen because he has never a NM resident book an antelope hunt with his business.

The state definitely needs to go to a unit by unit basis for the public draw tags.

 

[jamaro]

LCH...
What would happen if they can't find 5 NM R to purchase the tags? I know that when you draw on the Small Missle range you need to pay an extra $100 but you know that going into it... Maybe we could do the same with Antelope... Would there be a price min or max? I agree that we need to somehow get these tags in the hands of R...

Just trying to spark the thought process...

J

 

[lchcguide]

Are you saying that NM Residents are not willing to pay the price that Landowners are asking? The outfitter that I work for is currently paying anywhere from $1600 to $2000 per tag in the central part of the state. How many residents are willing to pay that. Not very many, with me included. But it is a way for more tags to go into residents hands, just not the residents that you are concerned about.

 

[jamaro]

I think residents would be willing if they new how much there were going to be asked to pay...
J

 

[Califelkslayer]

Largo, I understood and was with you on the youth idea. When unit 15 and 34 elk have 25%-33% odds for NR youth and single digit odds for resident youth, tag allotments need to be adjusted in the favor of residents. Same with NR guided having better odds than residents. On those hunts, adjust tag allotments till residents have at least a equal chance.

WORST DRAW ODDS FOR ANY HUNT ARE NR-UNGUIDED!!! Don't make those worse!!!

 

[Ropinfool]

As long as the LO's and game & fish are driven by greed, nothing will change.

 

[Hooked_on_Coues]

Its not Game and Fish. They don't make any money out of this deal. That is one reason Largo's idea of making everyone buy a license up front would be good.

 

[cocinaelktaco]

These posts make me laugh,

Today i have rented a dozer for $2,500.00, will be paying an operator that actually can make more than waves (Such as ME!)
$150. a day X 10 days $1,500.00, repair water lines $250.00 + three days work. Mend some fence from the elk not caring that it's there. By the way my fence is to keep the neighbors cattle out ! Repair two Solar panels that pump the water to water the deer and elk. $4,000.00 ( bulls love to run there antlers through them!), Insurance $1,450.00, Repair broken water tanks, fix the wash outs on my days off from work, Put up new NO TRESPASS Signs from the hunters that always tear them down so they can claim they didn't know that the fences that they crossed or cut was the property line.Make payments on the purchase $2,000,000.00 + Interest. WOW US RANCHERS ARE MAKING A KILLING !

Did i forget to say that i can only kill one deer a year!and 1 elk !

Let's see, I only allow 3 deer to be taken and If they are stupid enough to run over to the public land that is way over hunted and they get killed instantly!

We only take 2 - 3 elk a year last year = 0, Did not see any big enough.

Sold one deer tag $2,500.00

The open gate would only allow you to destroy all the work I've done for the last ten years in one season, Because the public is not willing to limit themselves from there given right to hunt and take responsably for their over killing their own lands, So your lands are out of animals Correct! and you want to kill our animals because we are hording all of them. Get real, You need to use your Power and be strong enough to fight for proper management as well as resident, non-resident privelidges, You are sooo correct that the public is responsible for taking care of their wildlife, How many of you are willing to cut tags when needed and donate your time and work on the public lands to improve habitat? and shell out more money to do so?

I also think that the kids are the most important to teach good management to. And am proud that the New Mexico game and Fish have given some exceptionaly great oppurtunities for them!

Did you donate to feed the deer in Colorado ?

Just my 2 Cents as a rancher.

 

[jamaro]

Guys... Please call your commissioners... Make them know how you feel...
This issue is too important to not be heard...

Jason

 

[Ropinfool]

Save us the sob story, that's just part of being a rancher. I grew up doing it. And by the way, those game animals aren't yours. Cattle are just as distructive so don't blame it all on the game.

The LO system is a crappy one and needs to be changed or eliminated.

 

[cocinaelktaco]

Not a sob story, just fact !

I enjoy what i do. Just do not care for snivelers that do not have any helpfull improvements behind the complaint.

So sorry the hunters didn't attend the important meetings, must not have been as important as that beer or football game.

Jamaro is correct the hunters should show their concern to the department and have their voices heard.

You are also correct we are taking good care of everybody's game animals or there wouldn't be any !

Would you support cuts in tags for deer?

My point on the fence was the costs of having them on the property. I do not have any cattle.

Did you donate to the deer in Colorado, do range improvements or just think about it in your living room?

Most Ranchers will do the work, Most others just complain.

We always called them "wanta - Be's" or talk alots!

 

[Ropinfool]

I'm sorry, I thought you were a "rancher"....lol.

I could give a rats a$$ about the deer in Colorado. I care about the game in New Mexico.

And I can complain, because my tax money and licence fees goes to the state and game & fish.....so, yes, I'm doing my part.

Besides, if you don't have any cattle, why are you getting any permits at all? That is one of the things wrong with the LO system. It's being abused.....makes it unfair for the LO's who have legitimate needs.

 

[cocinaelktaco]

I understand a "talk a lot".X(

 

[Ropinfool]

If you want to have an intelligent conversation about this, then that's fine. If you want to sling insults, I can do that too.

The fact of the matter is the current system is so lop-sided that it's not funny. Once again, the almighty dollar has intervened.

 

[cocinaelktaco]

Point is, I hope that you take it to the game commisioners at a meeting, Not just this forum, it is important and there are some valid points. I do not think that there is a perfect system for all involved. I'm just lucky to have been able to buy my slice of the pie. I am getting tired of working so hard to pay for it though! and hearing about how us rich ranchers are... well you know. You are correct i am not a cattle rancher, But i have great respect for how hard they work and their American family values. My passion for hunting has me working 7 days a week and that is my choice "Not Sobbing"i do try to do my part for the wildlife and hope that the Deer Incentive program takes off from our department, It will equate to more quality opportunities on the your side of the fence in the long run.

I still purchase antelope tags occasionaly, usually so a young kid can have a good start. They are the perfect hunt for kids in my opinion. I have only been drawn twice in 20 years. The tags are going for a fortune now just as everything else has. My biggest worry is the price that all hunters are paying just to go, Gas, Food, Time off etc.. Quality Family outings are going to go away, and the reality T.V. shows will take it's place with nothing being taught about the outdoors, it will be it's undoing!

 

[sportsman01]

The amount of tags that outfitters and NR's get is ridiculous. I am now 25 years old and have been applying to hunt elk (along with every other species) since I was about 10 years old. I've drawn two elk tags...two in 15 years. One with my bow in which I had a fantastic hunt(unsuccessful but fun nevertheless) and another when I was just a youngster. Deer tags...almost the same story. I've held three deer tags in fifteen years. I wasn't able to even hunt a mule deer until my 20 birthday(besides those trips with my dad). My brother is 22, fighting for our right to live the way we do (Army Ranger in Afghanistan) and he has never drawn an elk tag. He's held two deer tags in his life. I'm not telling you this for a pity party , but to make a statement that it's rdiculous to wait 10-12-15 years to hunt in a state where you live, work, pay taxes, and grow up.
I have worked at White Sands now for three years and have been putting in for oryx for about 8-10 years. I have still not drawn a tag, nor has any of my family. I see the beautiful animals on a daily basis and am unable to enjoy or experience hunting one due to the amount of NR's applying for these tags.
NM game and Fish system needs to be revamped, and yes NR's need to have cap on the amount of applications. Outfitters need to be more closely monitored as well as private land owners. I have hunted on private land(for lack of other options) and helped out oufitters during their seasons. It's nothing but NR's. Cali, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, New York, Texas..texas..texas. Let's let some of our own hunt in the state we call home. in my opinion, everyone else should have to get in line.