A and B tags, guide fees

[krp]

Guides have reported getting these revisions in the mail the last few days. Not available anywhere else that I know of.

Posted over on TAH

Azslim posted this over there and I hope it's ok to cut and paste this, let me know if I'm doing something wrong.

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Page 14 lists the following increases

Javelina - 30
Turkey - 25
Bear - 30
Lion - 19
Deer - class A 150 - class B 50
Antelope - 90
Elk - class A 350 - class B 150
Sheep - 335
Guide License - 500
Class F hunting license will be 60.

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Big increases and what are A and B tags? I think we can guess.

Any guides here recieve this info also in the mail?

Kent

 

[creed]

Kent
From the lack of interest in this I would think many people don't realize the ramifications of what is going down.

Trophy tags for selected elk and deer hunts is going to affect everyone should that be what is being proposed. AZSlim told me that with the combined cost of license and tag increases a north of the ditch deer tag is going to cost a NR around $1200. With no online applications that is quite a bit of money for many people to front.

I have no idea what a NR trophy elk tag is going to cost.

Hopefully there is a misinterpretation as to what is meant by A/B tags. I guess we'll find out in time if it is what it looks like.

 

[krp]

Creed, I've been trying to find something the G&F site but nothing yet, probably not on there. I won't be able to check much today and leaving for the weekend, I'm going to see if I can get some more answers next week. This is BIG!

All this pretend senario talk we've been doing the last couple months, like we know what's going on and have the answers to any issue and this maybe sneaks under the radar. I'm guilty, I've had enough. Where was the survey?

I've learned alot with the national elections and seeing how thinga are done. If this is true they will get sick of me crying and whining and not listening to anything they say just hammering them relentless.

Truthlessness won out by these tactics, maybe the truth can win out using the same.

Kent

 

[sremim]

A few years ago after the USO fiasco they came up with the A&B tag idea. It was put aside for the time being. Looks like it is coming up again.





























"I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money.
You can keep the "change"!"

 

[maddglasser]

I have not recieved any of this! Guide lisence to $500.00 and due right around Christmas, I will look into this as well. Can you ask slim when he recieved it?
Travis

 

[krp]

Travis, they got them on the 1st in the mail. A guide packet and it had revisions, that's all I know.

Have you recieved your's yet? Pg 14 I guess.

If it's in a offical packet is it law for next year already? Is the packet official? I'm going to try and go down and get one next week. Unless there is nothing to it.

Kent

 

[AZBuckSnort]

I sure hope the AZGFD isn't going to officially designate specific units as "premium" or "trophy" hunt opportunities. Can you imagine the ramifications if a unit like GMU 10 gets labelled as such and the likely impact on access to private holdings like the Boquillas Ranch? I think they just might be lifting the lid off Pandora's Box and what is inside isn't going to be a gift to sportsmen, resident or nonresident alike.

 

[maddglasser]

I will have to look thru it.Thanks for the heads up!

 

[maddglasser]

Well, yep it's there! Sheep NR $3,000.00. Man this is insane! I guess the statewants draw odds to go up for the people who can afford it. This is now a rich mans sport!
What a racket! I can't believe we really have NO say on any of these changes

 

[azoutback]

Hunter retention and recruitment at its finest!

 

[javihammer]

Wow, this is one of the most depressing posts I have read in a long time. If true, Arizona will be going from fairly high quality hunting distributed across the state to a generally mediocre state with some very expensive and small pockets of opportunity (like several other states out West) ?.this seems like another under the radar move by someone on the commission with an ugly long term agenda. Let me remind everyone of some previous similarly sneaky moves that benefited no one but the wealthy .

? The 20% pass percentage ? Sneaky way to turn Arizona into a preference point state - Rewards those with the ability to apply in other states and ride the wait out in the meantime.

? Moving several quality archery deer units to a draw ? Sneaky way to move people into a choose your weapon mentality ? Will hurt everyone as unsuccessful OTC archers gradually compete for middle tier rifle tags. Also rewards those with resources to apply in multiple states since there are fewer people competing for their coveted rifle tags.

And Now??..A and B hunt designation for guides

? This classification may apply to guide fees initially but there is no doubt it is a preliminary move to condition hunters to accept premium pricing in the future. This will absolutely help the wealthy get drawn and will push non-wealthy applicants from the premium units into the ?non-premium? units. It will give AZGFD the ability to control demand by price as opposed to allowing hunters to control demand through draw rates. On average the higher demand tags generate more money anyway (more years of licenses purchased), this seems to me to be an accounting decision to generate more dollars per tag much earlier in the process ($100 today is worth more than $100 ten years from now). This is very scary.

This ?premium? designation is a major game changer guys. It is allowing another way in which AZGFD can play air traffic controller and direct a public resource into the hands of those with the most dollars or political access. Remember, the standard that qualifies a hunt as premium is set by them, and these arbitrary decisions are subject to undue political influence. This is one of those rare cases where even the most indifferent of hunters need to contact AZGFD and nip it before it is allowed to legitimize itself over time. Even if you don't hunt the Strip or South Canyon elk units this will absolutely impact you. Your non-premium sleeper unit will be overrun with new bargain hunters and AZGFD will have little incentive to ensure it's quality. Or even worse, AZGFD will call your unit premium and you wont be able to afford to hunt there anymore.

I am not a guide and I haven't seen the paperwork. If I were a guide I would question whether or not this new pricing was established as a direct barrier to entry for the small time guides and would think there could be grounds for a legal challenge. I hope this response turns out to be a major overreaction on my part. JUST SAY NO TO PREMIUM HUNTS! The email address to each commisioner is on the AZGFD website.

Cheers,
Ryan

 

[maddglasser]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-03-09 AT 07:08PM (MST)[p]Ryan and others,
I have already sent out E-mailer to all my contacts and published a small write up on my blog. I am encouraging these NR's to not drop out but to find a way to fight this. These NR'S have big money invested with all of their license fees over the years. Many sheep applicants will be forced to drop out, this is not fair to them, or any of us. I would encourage anyone that is forced to drop out to request their money back!
Or at the very least, an explanation for these actions!

Travis
www.southwesthuntingadventures.com

 

[maddglasser]

This is what I have sent out


AZGFD, is pushing to raise the rates for hunting in AZ for nonresidents to an astounding level. This truly will put many nonresidents out in the dark! After years and years of purchasing NR hunting licenses, and paying fees to apply, many NR may choose to just drop out!

Some of the changes include A & B designations

For example AZ GMU 13B- class A
past fee-$232.50
New fee-$1,250.00

Bighorn (both species)
past fee--$1407.50
New fee--$3,000.00

Elk unit 10 early rifle- class A
past fee--$595.00
New fee-- $$3,250.00

If you would like a copy of these new provisions call AZGFD
@ 602-942-3000, let them know how you feel about these changes!

Travis Scott
Southwest Hunting Adventures

 

[Drnaln]

I'm a non-resident that has been playing the application game in most western states for quite a few years.Seems like each year states tack on a higher fee or raise tag prices.Idaho just raised NR fees for next year & with their odds & quality of critters it will be hard to apply.New Mexico has a $3000 NR sheep tag fee & it's tough to "loan" them the money each season.Some people will just pay the higher fees & some will drop out because it's getting too expensive.Not trying to upset the residents but if all the states follow suit,hunting will be a rich man's game around the West!
David

 

[ElmerFudd]

At least for the NR part, it is a lot of money for the individusal, but if you consider the small number of licenses availible, not a lot of money to the dept...a few tags here, a few there, less than $100K total...Now figure they will lose lots of nonresident licenses and applications (perhaps $200 per?), I bet AZGFD loses money on the deal. Plus, sell the points and licenses, for the points, then change the deal...I say refund all back license fees used for nonresidentsw to buy points if they change it that much and the nonresident just wants out!

On top of that, focing you to be rich to hunt from a government???

 

[OutdoorWriter]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-04-09 AT 09:10AM (MST)[p]The fees listed above are the STATUTORY caps set by the legislature. It's a process done every few years to allow increases over time without requiring the legislature to OK every proposed increase over the future years.

TONY MANDILE

How To Hunt Coues Deer

 

[ElmerFudd]

The current fees look like what was a few years ago...So this table must have been from before the last change. I can't find a thing on the new fees going along with alternate management hunts proposed on the website..... And the proposed changes they are talking about mention nothing of increased fees.

Maybe the increased fees will actually help outfitters, as it will drop more barely skating buy guys, Those who actually can afford it will more likely be able to afford one. LOL

 

[OutdoorWriter]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-04-09 AT 09:14AM (MST)[p]Exactly, Elmer. Increased fees, though proposed to the max, are not a given.

TONY MANDILE

How To Hunt Coues Deer

 

[Boskee]

I'll oppose any unequal price structure for Residents period. If we're below market on NR then an increase may be in order.Hopefully they will come up with something that's going to keep our guides in business. If would chap my ass to see our guys go down and USO be able to do business here. Boddington used USO last year on his sheep hunt here.

LET"S NOT LOSE SIGHT OF THE FACT THAT THE HERITAGE FUNDS MAY BE GONE FOR A WHILE AND THEY MAY NEED REVENUES DURING THE BUDGET CRISIS.

 

[ducksbucksandbulls]

Az residents have it easy, complain about the # of tags, The dept game and fish needs more $, but you do not want to give out more Non res tags, a good way to make a lot more $.
Raise the price of Res tags . Maybe to ca costs. I just paid $376 for a resident tag. If ya did that in Az, you might have a surplus of funds.
I think we all just like to complain unless we get a tag and see less hunters in the field! can't have it all.
happy 4th to all.

 

[HillbillyNnevada]

I have to say Western states are getting out of control with this stuff. Nearly all of them try to rape the nonresidents on fees and tag costs since they have no representation. I'm not picking on Arizona because all the states do it.

While wildlife management should be a state issue, it wouldn't hurt to have a Federal law (since nonresidents have no represeantation) that says a state can't charge a nonresident more than 10 times (or some set amount) what it charges its own residents. That would force a state to have to either tighten its budget or actually raise resident fees for once this century.

 

[HillbillyNnevada]

Ducks,
The reason you have to pay $376 is because CA gives pretty much zero tags to nonresidents (i.e. 1 elk tag, up to 1 sheep tag). Therefore, residents actually pay the full price for wildlife management since CA has no nonresidents to subsidize resident hunting costs. CA is prime example of what it would cost everyone to hunt in their home state if it were not for nonresidents.

 

[Boskee]

Ducks, You're right we do need to fix things over here. I think we need to institue a NR equality system. We cut your opportunity to hunt here to a chance to draw the exact numbers & species you offer in return that way we'll be as fair as you are. Since you think it fair to tell us how to run things we want to be totally fair about it and this seems like the best approach. Many other states offer us more opportunity so why not let them have the tags fair is fair.

 

[ElmerFudd]

Careful. CA has no nonresident distinction for deer draws, other than price. See what your north of the ditch deer odds would do if you open the floodgates to CA.... NM has no nonresident distinction for sheep...again, other than price.

And get this, become a resident of AZ for long enough to buy a lifetime license (6 months?), buy it, and never be subjected to the 10% cap again...No matter where you live the rest of your life! I can't figure that one.

 

[Boskee]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-05-09 AT 01:42PM (MST)[p]Fudd I get your point and you know I was just venting at his idiotic post.

 

[Bugler]

I am opposed to the a b thing period. There is no reason at all for another price increase on tags for res or non res at thispoint. It is ridiculous. If they do this I think they should all be fired! removed from their position and replaced. The management practices in this state are crap as well, combined with the US FWS we are getting our butts handed to us on both fronts having things shoved down our throats. Enough is enough!
I wont pay the increased amount for an early elk tag they are proposing. Period They are slowly turning normal folks into criminals I guess. It will get to the point where if I want to go hunting Pee on the tag, I will just go. Things are gonna end up that way if they keep it up. How can we recruit kids and wives into this when it is gonna get so damn expensive, unless we put in for the lesser quality hunts and let the rich jagoffs like bodington and the scumbags at USO have the quality ones. This is a bunch of BS.
And another thing that goes along with this money crap, here in az places like the Boquillas, they want to chrage large maounts of money and close it off to the reg people? That land is checkerboarded public and state. there will be no one keeping me off state land anywhere I pay my taxes period. Im sick of people like that telling me where I can and cant go and how much it's gonna cost me. I have already paid for it.
Anyways this fee increase is crap all the way around.

 

[Pruney]

From Madglasser: "After years and years of purchasing NR hunting licenses, and paying fees to apply, many NR may choose to just drop out"!

I am afraid they would be more likely to move to a premium archery hunt and therefore hurt all NR archery hunters as well. For example, I would expect the NR Max points for unit 9 archery to go from 14 (2010 projected) to 16 or 17. This could also impact resident archery hunters as the "up to 10%" NR cap will effectively become a guaranteed 10% in those premium archery units for years to come.

 

[Bura Nut]

Dont know how far this will go, but expect the state will push it asfar as they can. My concern is like Bugler's, increasing fees this far will create alot of "poachers" who arent really poachers, just cant afford to spend the thousands of dollars for a couple kids, wife to hunt. I sure hope the department looks closely at this, and really puts out a poll that they listen too........ Thanks, Allen Taylor......

 

[ElmerFudd]

The guy I talked to when I called said the A/B tag price structure is an internet haox. The alternate management units will have no tag price differential, just they will be have more discrestion as how to manage the units.

 

[maddglasser]

It is not an internet joke! The guide packet I recieved came from G&F. The new price increases are in black and white, under article 17-333. You can request a copy of this.

 

[krp]

Hmm, I don't have one of the guide packets but everyone that does see's an A and B tag with different prices, pg 14, they caused their own hoax I guess, they wrote it in an official pamplet. They don't think it would explode over the internet?

So there will be a premium hunt structure implimented but it won't effect prices. (yet) I guess they forgot to mention that as we were being distracted by the extreemly thought provoking questions on the Kaibab and youth issues survey.

Kent

 

[maddglasser]

Exactly! About like the stand land use permit "rumors" that were floating around. Very convenient

 

[OutdoorWriter]

I have from a high authority, that there will be NO tag increases or A & B tags in the near future. As already stated, what was sent out was a copy of the statute that allows the current statutory caps on tag fees. Rules like it must be reviewed every five years or they go away. But at the present time, there is no discussion to actually implement any increases in tag fees as a part of that review process.


TONY MANDILE

How To Hunt Coues Deer

 

[maddglasser]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-07-09 AT 09:11AM (MST)[p]That is great news, lets see if they follow their word. The way article 17-333 is wrote, one could easily call BS on what they are saying now. I also have read s statement from Game Branch addressing this, I believe some of this "back peddling" is because of the pressure applied by folks on these sites.

Is This is just more of their game playing with us?

Why did they decide to ammend the regs all of a sudden if they have no plans of changing anything?

 

[standman]

Here is some info that was posted on another site,thougt I would post it here.

Brian Wakeling sent this to me this morning. He would like to try and clarify what this packet is and wanted to insure to you all that the tags will not increase in cost. The guides license on the other hand is still up in the air as far as i can tell.

The Department is not looking at fee increases. This started as a fairly benign effort by our Law Branch Chief Gene Elms in sending out a reminder to the guides with a statute attached.



What Gene sent out was a copy of the current statute to remind guide?s of their responsibilities under existing statute. That statute also places the upper limit on the amount that we can charge for a variety of things like licenses and tags. This statute was passed in 2005 when we were considering a number of things, such as differing fees for ?premier? deer or elk tags. Rules must be passed to implement statutes, and in the ensuing public comment and Commission process, the concept of charging more for the premier tags was left on the editing room floor. Article 1 rule, specifically R12-4-102 lists the current fees that the Commission charges for each license or tag. The fees can be equal to or less than that in statute, but cannot exceed that in statute. Despite the fact that we have the statutory authority to charge more for licenses and tags, there is no current move afoot to increase them.

Article 1 has gone through the rule review phase required by statute. If not reviewed once every 5 years, rules will simply go away. But rulemaking is required to actually change a rule. No mention of a fee increase was included in the review phase, and the public would have know of it because the Commission has to approve the review report. The governor has placed a moratorium on rulemaking for most rules, and no action is occurring on Article 1 since January and cannot begin until after October 16. The governor could choose to again extend this moratorium, but we do not currently know if she will. Once we can again begin the rulemaking phase, it will probably take 3-6 months to develop a proposed rulemaking package to be shared with the Commission, after which a 30 public comment period will be open. It will then be a subsequent meeting before final rulemaking can come before the Commission. I do not expect fee increases to be part of this package, but I cannot promise that. It has not yet been discussed, but nothing is currently in the works nor is anything underhanded ongoing.

Again, the statute allows for a higher maximum than is currently authorized through rule. It was the statute, not the rule that Gene sent out.

Brian Wakeling

Game Branch Chief

623-236-7385

 

[maddglasser]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-07-09 AT 11:07AM (MST)[p]Well here is their chance to shine! If they do not raise the fees to the max anytime soon, it will show sceptics they are not totally all about the money! However, this could come back bad if they do decide to in the next year or so. I guess everyone is a little unsure of the current commision because of past activities. We'll just have to see how this one plays out!

 

[krp]

This is good to hear. As citizens and not 'Subjects of the state' we have every right to question anything they send or express in an official pamplet, which I now am in posession of myself. It is not our fault they didn't explain it enough to start with.

Sounds like Mr. Wakeling explained it to the public as he should, being the goverment is set up to work for us, I know that's a strange concept in our country today. Thank you, Mr. Wakeling for being responsable in your job for us.

Kent

 

[muleymaniac]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-09-09 AT 02:25PM (MST)[p]hey all- great topic - lots of usefull information - Az G&F commission needs to step back and take a hard look at things that have already taken place over the past several yrs. and where they really want to go with all these amendments/statutory cap fees. Just because they "say" no increases /changes this yr. then why is this guide license fee been implemented . It takes the average - resident guides and puts them out of business and allows the bigger "USO" money grubbers a better chance at cornering all the guided hunts. When you look at all the extra fee's- forest/land permits amd insurance etc.which have all gone upo the last 2 yrs also It's crazy to take this action!

We had hoped with new blood in the commision that things might get better - I know it takes time and people are always saying get involved -stand up and speak your mind - make a difference - but when it all falls on deaf ears and closed minds, we stand very little chance of things ever changing.Can they also be so blind as to see this is not a good thing for Arizona hunters/guides?

Time will tell - GH