AZG&F dept has filed charges against A3 in Az for using helicopter during late bull hunts. Seems like a lot of outfitters are having a hard time staying within the limits of the law…
Case Number: | J-0404-CM-2023000144 |
Sad but true.Follow the money.
Again, as I’ve said before… This is exactly what is wrong with modern day hunting anymore…Kiabab early hunt had its issues also. One night we went into town for fuel. We met a guide who said he had 2 clients. He also said he had 5 trucks driving around all night spot lighting for bucks. Anyone care to guess how many outfitters were on the unit doing that? The burn was an absolute joke with spotters and wannabe instagram famers on every point.
I don’t believe it is a) during a season, and b) while possessing a weapon. I sure hope I’m not wrong.Spotlighting is legal in AZ, a lot more joe blows doing it than outfitters.
Pretty sad isn’t it… I remember archery hunting there in the late 80’s to early 90’s… Boy how things have changed…I don’t believe it is a) during a season, and b) while possessing a weapon. I sure hope I’m not wrong.
The last time I was at the Kiabab a couple of years ago it was unbelievable to the point of being comical. The Jacob Lake 500.
I can't help but wonder why we allow it? Utah is the same.
This right here - who do you think caused all the problems with trail cams? It certainly wasn't the Average Joe with 2-3 cameras. It was all the damn outfitters and guides with 100 cams in every top tier unit.And they think scopes on muzzleloaders is the problem SMH. Hell ban every outfitter in the western states and that'll take care of 90% of the problems we have.
The problem is they cater to these outfitters because of the money they bring in, remember it's not about wildlife conservation it's about money and the money they bring in isn't going to conservation.This right here - who do you think caused all the problems with trail cams? It certainly wasn't the Average Joe with 2-3 cameras. It was all the damn outfitters and guides with 100 cams in every top tier unit.
The spotlighting is also ridiculous and many other shady tactics that guides and outfitters use to kill at any cost. Money and "inches" is killing hunting.
The problem is they cater to these outfitters because of the money they bring in, remember it's not about wildlife conservation it's about money and the money they bring in isn't going to conservation.
Care to elaborate how conservation tag dollars don't go to conservation?The problem is they cater to these outfitters because of the money they bring in, remember it's not about wildlife conservation it's about money and the money they bring in isn't going to conservation.
I don't want an argument I truly want you to enlighten me I don't know how to text without sounding sarcastic but I'm truly serious. I understand that the conservation tag dollars go to conservation. (Wish i had the money to buy those tags). But I would love to know your opinion on what the outfitters bring to the table? They have to be bringing money somehow or at least buying certain agency's off or something? Hell how many times does WLH have to get caught breaking laws before they ban him from guiding? Why are they so soft on these big name outfitters? I honestly believe you get rid of all outfitters it solves 90% of our problems that we're dealing with today in hunting.Care to elaborate how conservation tag dollars don't go to conservation?
I don't want to read about theories and hypothesis either, show me facts.
And when you're done, I'll destroy your arguments with data, audit reports and other accredited information.
My popcorn is ready
I like that idea, all I can figure is half the guys that buy these tags which I'm grateful they do but them but I don't think they could kill a trophy animal without a guide taking them to one.They bring zero to the resource. In fact they are a negative on it. You can't have 90-100% success rates killing animals. Look at the units getting shot out both deer and elk. They reap a profit, create non stop issues. The tags sell themselves.
Let them compete for VERY limited areas. In fact, let's auction off those areas, and give the proceeds to habitat.
When you’ve exploited and depleted the resources to the point that it is currently, you have to get creative to keep those numbers up.AZG&F dept has filed charges against A3 in Az for using helicopter during late bull hunts. Seems like a lot of outfitters are having a hard time staying within the limits of the law…
What the outfitter brings to the table is simple. Outfitters are the PIMP that brings the JOHN/HUNTER WITH THE MONEY to the PROSTITUTE (which would be the state) so she can get paid. The JOHN then pays the pimp for his hand holding services throughout the adventure who then posts photos for advertisement and bragging rights to hopefully win the "Pimp of the year" award.I don't want an argument I truly want you to enlighten me I don't know how to text without sounding sarcastic but I'm truly serious. I understand that the conservation tag dollars go to conservation. (Wish i had the money to buy those tags). But I would love to know your opinion on what the outfitters bring to the table? They have to be bringing money somehow or at least buying certain agency's off or something? Hell how many times does WLH have to get caught breaking laws before they ban him from guiding? Why are they so soft on these big name outfitters? I honestly believe you get rid of all outfitters it solves 90% of our problems that we're dealing with today in hunting.
Kinda makes a guy wonder how some of them even sleep at night knowing what they do to cash those checks.So your saying it's not because guides are the greatest hunters in the planet?
I like your ideas…They bring zero to the resource. In fact they are a negative on it. You can't have 90-100% success rates killing animals. Look at the units getting shot out both deer and elk. They reap a profit, create non stop issues. The tags sell themselves.
Let them compete for VERY limited areas. In fact, let's auction off those areas, and give the proceeds to habitat.
Neat idea.....I'd like to ponder this deeper.They bring zero to the resource. In fact they are a negative on it. You can't have 90-100% success rates killing animals. Look at the units getting shot out both deer and elk. They reap a profit, create non stop issues. The tags sell themselves.
Let them compete for VERY limited areas. In fact, let's auction off those areas, and give the proceeds to habitat.
Neat idea.....I'd like to ponder this deeper.
Totally agree!I'm still stuck on this spotlighting thing. THAT is an easy law/rule to make- and it shouldn't be controversial at all.
I know- all these laws are hard to enforce. But people spotlighting is pretty obvious...
And scopes/monos that allow for night vision during any big game hunting season should also be illegal, if not already.
If you take away all the "easy-button" methods for locating game, and limit it to good old-fashioned scouting, the guide game becomes more reasonable.
Yeah let's put the hunt back in hunting as they say, no freaking spotlights at night lol seems crazy is hasn't been addressed up to this point but I can't leave a trail camera up during the hunting season. The last few years have felt like I'm taking CRAZY PILLSTotally agree!
@slamdunk - was spotlighting discussed with the Technology Committee? Seems like a no-brainer that should be banned immediately.
It wasn't, and I'm not sure that is within our topic range, but I will dig into it.
Make sense. Casey Snider should be able to help with that.I'm guessing that will have to be a legislative change, not a wildlife board change. If I don't have a hunting tag, how will the wildlife board get to tell me anything? (Just like trail cams...it took the legislature banning them entirely because the wildlife board could only do it for hunting purposes.)
Me too
Really? You have a group of guys bitching about one user group? It’s obvious if one would just spent some more time outdoors they wouldn’t let something so little bother them. Outfitter user group likely has less fines & convictions vs resident randy diy. Hell look at mossback in Utah. Biggest in the state. How many convictions?Why would wanting people exploiting public resources already for private gain to follow the law mean I don’t spend enough time outdoors?
This I gotta hear!
Sorry slam but the money these tags bring in for conservation is the problem. That’s why all the spotlighting,trail cameras and all the guides cronies out and about all year looking for the high money rollers. If everybody had to draw like us low life’s that would mostly go away. Would you agree.Care to elaborate how conservation tag dollars don't go to conservation?
I don't want to read about theories and hypothesis either, show me facts.
And when you're done, I'll destroy your arguments with data, audit reports and other accredited information.
My popcorn is ready
Sorry slam but the money these tags bring in for conservation is the problem. That’s why all the spotlighting,trail cameras and all the guides cronies out and about all year looking for the high money rollers. If everybody had to draw like us low life’s that would mostly go away. Would you agree.
I definitely won't deny it's a major factor, yes.Sorry slam but the money these tags bring in for conservation is the problem. That’s why all the spotlighting,trail cameras and all the guides cronies out and about all year looking for the high money rollers. If everybody had to draw like us low life’s that would mostly go away. Would you agree.
You wish!"I'm a guide"
Keep crying because the big bad guides are ruining your experience! Stop crying. If it’s so important to you DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.Hey SS, why don’t you tell us you don’t get it without saying “I don’t get it.”
There are bears and chit out thereone thing is for sure, you guys sure don’t spend enough time outdoors
you seem well versed in this topic. I’m a little lazy tonight because I have to go to Christmas parties. What does it take to become an outfitter in Utah? And to a lesser extent a guide? Is there a difference? Some states guides have to work for outfitters, is this the case in UT?No.
If there was only one option, hunt it yourself, it would go away. The tag, or the value of it, is what it is.
The **** that surrounds it, is the issue.
Outfitting has become totally unregulated. DOPL is useless. DWR management is bought off(bear hunt).
You'd think after FLIR, bait, trail cams, the industry would limit themselves. Instead, they just find another avenue.
It's out of control, we all know it.
And frankly, it's something the majority of us agree on
I politely semi disagree.Not really slam. The money boys buy the tags every year and so the guides mostly know who there clientele is. If the money boys only drew tags every few years like the rest of us then in my opinion it wouldn’t be so bad. But that being said i wonder what percentage of Joe blows hire guides when they draw. All this started going down hill when don Peary started all this. Just my opinion
Outfitters are the company, the guide is the employee.There are bears and chit out there
Oh, and can we please differentiate between outfitters and guides. They are NOT the same in most cases.
I know…but you know what I meant. One is an entity whose primary purpose is to generate a profit. The other is a dude working for a paycheck by doing what he’s told.Outfitters are the company, the guide is the employee.
In Utah, it is illegal to just be a guide, you have to be licensed under an outfitter to get guide status.
I guess one difference between being a guide in Alaska and being a guide in Utah is in Utah you might have to work the graveyard shift as a spot lighter.you seem well versed in this topic. I’m a little lazy tonight because I have to go to Christmas parties. What does it take to become an outfitter in Utah? And to a lesser extent a guide? Is there a difference? Some states guides have to work for outfitters, is this the case in UT?
If you don’t know that’s fine, my curiosity has been triggered so I’ll look into it.
If there was a restriction on number of outfitting permits and some more standards in place do you think that would help?
In AK one must do at least 60 days in the field working for an established outfitter (called registered guide) before they can get the license of assistant guide. An assistant guide has to work for a registered guide for 3 years and do X amount of hunts a year to qualify to take their registered guide test. Also to qualify for the test one must have a certain number of notarized letters of recommendation. The test covers not only hunting regulations, but first aid, business insurance questions, topography etc. Out of the professional licenses offered in AK it has one of the highest failure rates. And if one has any wildlife violation prior or during any of the process they have to appeal to a board to even take the test. Simply put, it’s a commitment like a skilled trade apprenticeship, I’m doubting UT or AZ has such a program? It would weed out a lot of those clowns.
thanks if you can get me the cliff notes requirements of guide/outfitter in either state that would be sweet, but if not I’ll find them. Maybe @berrysblaster could provide a quick write up?
100%I know…but you know what I meant. One is an entity whose primary purpose is to generate a profit. The other is a dude working for a paycheck by doing what he’s told.
If you are a famous “owner-operator”, you’re probably a a corp dude with a chopper on speed dial.
I know thats a pretty broad brush, but you can’t deny that corporate outfitting has caused significant - sometimes negative - changes in the hunting industry.
Keep crying because the big bad guides are ruining your experience! Stop crying. If it’s so important to you DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
But you’re just going to sit there and *****. Typical resident Randy
you seem well versed in this topic. I’m a little lazy tonight because I have to go to Christmas parties. What does it take to become an outfitter in Utah? And to a lesser extent a guide? Is there a difference? Some states guides have to work for outfitters, is this the case in UT?
If you don’t know that’s fine, my curiosity has been triggered so I’ll look into it.
If there was a restriction on number of outfitting permits and some more standards in place do you think that would help?
In AK one must do at least 60 days in the field working for an established outfitter (called registered guide) before they can get the license of assistant guide. An assistant guide has to work for a registered guide for 3 years and do X amount of hunts a year to qualify to take their registered guide test. Also to qualify for the test one must have a certain number of notarized letters of recommendation. The test covers not only hunting regulations, but first aid, business insurance questions, topography etc. Out of the professional licenses offered in AK it has one of the highest failure rates. And if one has any wildlife violation prior or during any of the process they have to appeal to a board to even take the test. Simply put, it’s a commitment like a skilled trade apprenticeship, I’m doubting UT or AZ has such a program? It would weed out a lot of those clowns.
thanks if you can get me the cliff notes requirements of guide/outfitter in either state that would be sweet, but if not I’ll find them. Maybe @berrysblaster could provide a quick write up?
........ forest Service land use permitsOff top of my head
DOPL license, dba(doing business as), liability insurance/bond, cpr certified, about $500.
Reality, not much
I know…but you know what I meant. One is an entity whose primary purpose is to generate a profit. The other is a dude working for a paycheck by doing what he’s told.
If you are a famous “owner-operator”, you’re probably a a corp dude with a chopper on speed dial.
I know thats a pretty broad brush, but you can’t deny that corporate outfitting has caused significant - sometimes negative - changes in the hunting industry.
If you guide FS........ forest Service land use permits
Damn. No wonder it’s a gong show down thereOff top of my head
DOPL license, dba(doing business as), liability insurance/bond, cpr certified, about $500.
Reality, not much
Seems like the process could be made a little more difficult, which would weed out some of the bad ones and put more value on having the license.@SS! becoming a licensed guide doesn’t take much. Be a competent outdoorsman/hunter, work with an established outfitter as a pseudo intern and they’ll fast track the process. Can be done in less than a week if a guy has that avenue.
Outfitter is harder, but still not challenging.
Obtaining a forest permit? Now that takes some doing.
It 100% could and probably should. Personally think the issues run a little deeper though.Seems like the process could be made a little more difficult, which would weed out some of the bad ones and put more value on having the license.
Seems like the process could be made a little more difficult, which would weed out some of the bad ones and put more value on having the license.
Really? You have a group of guys bitching about one user group? It’s obvious if one would just spent some more time outdoors they wouldn’t let something so little bother them. Outfitter user group likely has less fines & convictions vs resident randy diy. Hell look at mossback in Utah. Biggest in the state. How many convictions?
You guys just spent a little bit more time outdoors maybe you’ll see clearly that there’s bad users in all groups. At least outfitters pay license fees where the YouTube/instagrammers pay nothing.
Some wolves I saw yesterday. We were both hunting the same moose. I don’t hate them for that. Get outside. Stop your crying :
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Hope those A3 clowns get the book thrown at them. But I’m not asking for any restrictions based off these clowns.
Carry on. I’m getting my gear ready for a Sunday traverse.
I guided 20+ years for Bucks and Bulls Guides and Outfitters, everything they did was (is) on private land, CWMU's or Tribal Lands.What if we limited guides and outfitters to private lands and banned them on public lands? Let them ruin hunting on the CWMUs and LOAs but ban guiding on public lands.
I don’t see this happening given the way Utah has commercialized hunting, but it would go a long way to solving the problem.
Hawkeye
I guided 20+ years for Bucks and Bulls Guides and Outfitters, everything they did was (is) on private land, CWMU's or Tribal Lands.
It is night and day opposite of public land hunting.
One on One hunting, no spotters, bait, cams, flying ever needed. The animals are in their natural elements and not pressured by human activity.
It was fun and the experiences, memories and portfolio I have are pretty amazing.
I'm sure they do.Um, Deseret spends a bit of time in the chopper looking "for stray cows)
I'm sure they do.
I've guided probably 25 hunts on DLL and have never once seen a chopper, heard a chopper or heard chatter about using a bird to find elk.
There are so many bulls on that ranch, air surveillance isn't even remotely needed.
1:1 ratio.
I've heard those rumors, but personally never saw it or even heard chatter about it.Not to find them, to "remind" them where home is