Absolutely Comical

[Mike0426]

Never paid too much attention to the harvest reports, but decided to take a look at some of the data gathered from last year. Looked over some of the units I've hunted in the past and find it hilarious some of the private land tags sold vs public land. For instance 21b. 197 Total tags sold to private land owners vs 180 tags sold to public land hunters. 33 bulls were harvested on the public hunts vs the 80 killed on private, and 15 cows on public vs 34 on private. There are plenty of other units with numbers that in my opinion are equally hilarious (34,36,15) but this one I find the most amusing. All the land locked hunting grounds in these units is hilarious, as well as the amount of tags allocated to these outfits. I guess when you can buy your ability to do this, the public hunter can never compete.

 

[live4muleys]

I guess I am a little confused. If you look at the map of 21b and take out all the BLM from Hatch down to Cruces (non elk habitat), it seems to me there is more Private then Public land (elk habitat), so it would make sense that more tags are going to private then public. Maybe you are trying to say that private ranches manage their elk well and that is why there are more bulls killed on private? Less competition on the private? If there are more bulls and cows on private it would make sense that they get more tags. Are you saying there are many public land tags given so the success rate is too low?

 

[Mike0426]

I guess I am a little confused. If you look at the map of 21b and take out all the BLM from Hatch down to Cruces (non elk habitat), it seems to me there is more Private then Public land (elk habitat), so it would make sense that more tags are going to private then public. Maybe you are trying to say that private ranches manage their elk well and that is why there are more bulls killed on private? Less competition on the private? If there are more bulls and cows on private it would make sense that they get more tags. Are you saying there are many public land tags given so the success rate is too low?

I'm saying there is probably equal amount of public as there is private from hatch (nut) north. The problem is the vast majority is land locked with little access or availability to the public land hunter. I would assume the numbers of elk on both private and public in these area's are roughly the same, but the denial of land to the public because of private would explain the reasons for the huge gap in success rates between the two.

 

[Booner]

I'm saying there is probably equal amount of public as there is private from hatch (nut) north. The problem is the vast majority is land locked with little access or availability to the public land hunter. I would assume the numbers of elk on both private and public in these area's are roughly the same, but the denial of land to the public because of private would explain the reasons for the huge gap in success rates between the two.

The overwhelming majority of 21B is in the Secondary Management Zone. Public tags are very limited and private tags outside that small portion of the Primary Management Zone are unlimited. Not sure how anyone could be surprised with the data unless you don’t know anything about the status of the unit.

 

[BUGLEnmIN]

Unless I’m misunderstanding I believe part of the gripe of the op’s is that there is the same amount ( or a bit more) public land in the unit yet tags and public success are way down!
Welcome to the fight gents! Been at it here for 10 years!
Z&T cattle co. own virtually the entire northern half the unit and they use every bit of the land locked public as their own private land! Other ranchers in the area ( Welty) along with Zane think they literally own every elk in the unit! They’re making a killing on
“ RANCH ONLY” tags while using up all our public , LANDOWNER WELFARE AT ITS FINEST!

 

[Booner]

Unless I’m misunderstanding I believe part of the gripe of the op’s is that there is the same amount ( or a bit more) public land in the unit yet tags and public success are way down!
Welcome to the fight gents! Been at it here for 10 years!
Z&T cattle co. own virtually the entire northern half the unit and they use every bit of the land locked public as their own private land! Other ranchers in the area ( Welty) along with Zane think they literally own every elk in the unit! They’re making a killing on
“ RANCH ONLY” tags while using up all our public , LANDOWNER WELFARE AT ITS FINEST!

If the OP’s argument is based on the total public land in the unit as a whole, it is a poor argument. The southern portion of the unit has the large blocks of public (BLM/state). The middle of the unit, where the Ladder ranch is located is roughly the end of the good elk country. That northern portion is pretty checkerboarded and lots of public is landlocked. If you have proof that poachers are killing elk on public land with RO tags you should do the right thing and turn them in.

 

[JB1975]

Unless I’m misunderstanding I believe part of the gripe of the op’s is that there is the same amount ( or a bit more) public land in the unit yet tags and public success are way down!
Welcome to the fight gents! Been at it here for 10 years!
Z&T cattle co. own virtually the entire northern half the unit and they use every bit of the land locked public as their own private land! Other ranchers in the area ( Welty) along with Zane think they literally own every elk in the unit! They’re making a killing on
“ RANCH ONLY” tags while using up all our public , LANDOWNER WELFARE AT ITS FINEST!

We have O/G ops on Zane in Loving County in Tx. Biggest pain in the a$$ landowner we deal with.

 

[BUGLEnmIN]

If the OP’s argument is based on the total public land in the unit as a whole, it is a poor argument. The southern portion of the unit has the large blocks of public (BLM/state). The middle of the unit, where the Ladder ranch is located is roughly the end of the good elk country. That northern portion is pretty checkerboarded and lots of public is landlocked. If you have proof that poachers are killing elk on public land with RO tags you should do the right thing and turn them in.

We have and did! Caught it on camera , myself and 2 other public land hunters in the area. This went on through the archery and rifle hunts, all of us hunters exchanged information and followed up until our calls were not taken any longer . Originally 8 wardens came down only 2 wanted to confront the outfit the other 6 did not say a word. Nothing happened!
On top of this Zane has tried numerous times to decommission roads on state and BLM by running fences across established roads. It’s been an ongoing deal for years here!

 

[MQ1_4_LIFE]

This wont change unless jennings law is reformed. 17-2-7.2 NMSA

Currently, the state can either provide opportunity for private land hunting that pads the pockets of the landowner, or they can let the landowner indiscriminately, and legally, kill all game animals on their property and let them rot for 23hrs before reporting to a game warden.

 

[Mike0426]

Unless I’m misunderstanding I believe part of the gripe of the op’s is that there is the same amount ( or a bit more) public land in the unit yet tags and public success are way down!
Welcome to the fight gents! Been at it here for 10 years!
Z&T cattle co. own virtually the entire northern half the unit and they use every bit of the land locked public as their own private land! Other ranchers in the area ( Welty) along with Zane think they literally own every elk in the unit! They’re making a killing on
“ RANCH ONLY” tags while using up all our public , LANDOWNER WELFARE AT ITS FINEST!

Couldn't agree more. Too many roads that were once public are now fenced off for ZT cattle to graze. Plenty of RO tags being used on public as well, and nothing will happen as game and fish will only check the hunters on the 2 public access roads N of Winston. Had same issues when the garrets owned it, but got exponentially worse once ZT cattle purchased.

 

[mossback50cal]

Couldn't agree more. Too many roads that were once public are now fenced off for ZT cattle to graze. Plenty of RO tags being used on public as well, and nothing will happen as game and fish will only check the hunters on the 2 public access roads N of Winston. Had same issues when the garrets owned it, but got exponentially worse once ZT cattle purchased.

That area is extremely bad. As are other parts of the state. I have called game and fish for access issues, and all I’ve ever gotten is “we will send someone”. No one ever shows up.

 

[Muleman]

Dont know of many roads Zane closed that weren’t closed before. He definitely tries and is a pain in the ass. But as to the first stats with tags and harvest, there is twice the elk on private than the public so go figure more are killed on private. I will give Zane credit he improved his waters and thus more elk on his land and I would much rather have Zane owning that Turner or Bezos

 

[Mike0426]

Dont know of many roads Zane closed that weren’t closed before. He definitely tries and is a pain in the ass. But as to the first stats with tags and harvest, there is twice the elk on private than the public so go figure more are killed on private. I will give Zane credit he improved his waters and thus more elk on his land and I would much rather have Zane owning that Turner or Bezos

I was hoping for someone more like Bill Gates. That way we would have a great place to gather and enjoy beyond meat, while we talk about correct pronouns and covid policies. As far as true numbers of elk on private vs public, I'm glad you were here clear up that there are twice as many elk on private vs public in this unit, that would definitely explain more elk being killed. smh

 

[bobby]

Unless I’m misunderstanding I believe part of the gripe of the op’s is that there is the same amount ( or a bit more) public land in the unit yet tags and public success are way down!
Welcome to the fight gents! Been at it here for 10 years!
Z&T cattle co. own virtually the entire northern half the unit and they use every bit of the land locked public as their own private land! Other ranchers in the area ( Welty) along with Zane think they literally own every elk in the unit! They’re making a killing on
“ RANCH ONLY” tags while using up all our public , LANDOWNER WELFARE AT ITS FINEST!

Can vouch for this as well. Have first hand witnsessed Welty himself blocking BLM roads. Litteraly drove up on his ass on a tractor putting huge bolders on a blm road. Why you ask, One to block 2 to petition the blm to decomission the road and gate thus preventing even mpore access .
I have also caught red handed welltys RO hunters hunting public land . They literraly ran away froom me when confronted

 

[Booner]

Can vouch for this as well. Have first hand witnsessed Welty himself blocking BLM roads. Litteraly drove up on his ass on a tractor putting huge bolders on a blm road. Why you ask, One to block 2 to petition the blm to decomission the road and gate thus preventing even mpore access .
I have also caught red handed welltys RO hunters hunting public land . They literraly ran away froom me when confronted

Can vouch for this as well. Have first hand witnsessed Welty himself blocking BLM roads. Litteraly drove up on his ass on a tractor putting huge bolders on a blm road. Why you ask, One to block 2 to petition the blm to decomission the road and gate thus preventing even mpore access .
I have also caught red handed welltys RO hunters hunting public land . They literraly ran away froom me when confronted

There are only 2 properties listed for Welty, one in 17 and one in 21B. Both are UW.

He could have property on the Secondary Management Zone that would be RO.

If he is doing this in the PMZ submit your proof and a complaint to the EPLUS manager and head of enforcement. If that goes nowhere go to the Director, if that goes nowhere go to the game commission. I would start by putting every person above on the cc line when sending out email #1.

If what you claim can be proven he should be removed from the program and be ticked for hunter harassment.

 

[bobby]

There are only 2 properties listed for Welty, one in 17 and one in 21B. Both are UW.

He could have property on the Secondary Management Zone that would be RO.

If he is doing this in the PMZ submit your proof and a complaint to the EPLUS manager and head of enforcement. If that goes nowhere go to the Director, if that goes nowhere go to the game commission. I would start by putting every person above on the cc line when sending out email #1.

If what you claim can be proven he should be removed from the program and be ticked for hunter harassment.

THe 3 years i hunted back there , he was ro , then he started to toggle between UW and RO , Not sure if he got other complaints . I tried I several folks an wardens and it was we will look into it and nothign ever done . same old game. Tired of investing time and wasting breath . Kinda like Todays politics noting we can say or do is going to change it . We cant vote our way out of the corruption

 

[BUGLEnmIN]

There are only 2 properties listed for Welty, one in 17 and one in 21B. Both are UW.

He could have property on the Secondary Management Zone that would be RO.

If he is doing this in the PMZ submit your proof and a complaint to the EPLUS manager and head of enforcement. If that goes nowhere go to the Director, if that goes nowhere go to the game commission. I would start by putting every person above on the cc line when sending out email #1.

If what you claim can be proven he should be removed from the program and be ticked for hunter harassment.

“SHOULD”
HAVE HAPPENED YEARS AGO
Good info though .

 

[BUGLEnmIN]

THe 3 years i hunted back there , he was ro , then he started to toggle between UW and RO , Not sure if he got other complaints . I tried I several folks an wardens and it was we will look into it and nothign ever done . same old game. Tired of investing time and wasting breath . Kinda like Todays politics noting we can say or do is going to change it . We cant vote our way out of the corruption

? NAILED IT!
The game is rigged , only insane people keep playing.

 

[Sako300rum]

I know in unit 17, a primitive weapon, they give out tags to private land owners for bulls and either sex ( which usually means bulls harvested according to the stats.
And you can start hunting October 1st each year with a high powered rifle on these ranches. I believe the tags last 5 days each. But you can continuously shoot Elk, majority bulls With new hunters starting October 1st.
I saw the elk quality go down on public land on this unit once they implemented these tags!

 

[Booner]

I know in unit 17, a primitive weapon, they give out tags to private land owners for bulls and either sex ( which usually means bulls harvested according to the stats.
And you can start hunting October 1st each year with a high powered rifle on these ranches. I believe the tags last 5 days each. But you can continuously shoot Elk, majority bulls With new hunters starting October 1st.
I saw the elk quality go down on public land on this unit once they implemented these tags!

You’re partially right, but not painting the whole picture. You make it sound as if anyone on private ground in the entire unit (17) can hunt with a rifle. Not the case. If the ranch is in the PMZ they have to adhere to a 5 day season (14 Oct - 31 Dec) and the primitive weapons restrictions. If outside the PMZ, but within the confines of the unit boundary (AKA SMZ) then yes, 1 Oct-31 Dec, rifles allowed-on Private land only. They can walk through public, just can’t shoot elk on public. Also, “they” don’t give out tags, the tags are OTC.

 

[OCHO]

You’re partially right, but not painting the whole picture. You make it sound as if anyone on private ground in the entire unit (17) can hunt with a rifle. Not the case. If the ranch is in the PMZ they have to adhere to a 5 day season (14 Oct - 31 Dec) and the primitive weapons restrictions. If outside the PMZ, but within the confines of the unit boundary (AKA SMZ) then yes, 1 Oct-31 Dec, rifles allowed-on Private land only. They can walk through public, just can’t shoot elk on public. Also, “they” don’t give out tags, the tags are OTC.

Just because there are laws in place doesn't mean people abide by them... You know drugs are illegal right.

"Laws without enforced consequences are merely suggestions." Ron Brackin

 

[Booner]

Just because there are laws in place doesn't mean people abide by them... You know drugs are illegal right.

"Laws without enforced consequences are merely suggestions." Ron Brackin

People probably get away with stuff all the time, but if you are implying that wardens won’t or don’t enforce those laws I think you’re incorrect.

 

[Looserowel505]

Zane is a dirty land pimp who has run his mouth making threats to whom ever he wants when ever he wants , even G&F officials! This problem WILL NEVER END as he always butters which ever governor is in office. The same land locked public land from butthole private land ranchers is a huge problem in unit 32 , barbary sheep country , and year after year its never addressed! The public land hunter gets bent over more and more every year , all the while no-one really fights and lets be honest , this game commission is a complete joke with simply staying in line with the governors agenda. Game commission has one guy who really cares and fights for his district , other then that , its a sad seat at that table for the publics land hunters of NM.

 

[Looserowel505]

Dont know of many roads Zane closed that weren’t closed before. He definitely tries and is a pain in the ass. But as to the first stats with tags and harvest, there is twice the elk on private than the public so go figure more are killed on private. I will give Zane credit he improved his waters and thus more elk on his land and I would much rather have Zane owning that Turner or Bezos

The difference between Zane and those other two jackwagons is Zane still allows hunting on his if one can afford it, which is great . BUT , HE IS STILL VERY MUCH A PUBLIC LAND ENEMY , he has always tried to lay claim to public land right of ways, land locking thousands of acres and he is such a nasty person to deal with . YOU KNOW THIS . Yes there is always bad apples that ruins so much for public land recreators , so many New Mexicans who have zero respect for public lands and it shows in every corner and inner lands of NM. Its no wonder many ranchers are saying "NO' these days . I would too , but Zane is a different kind of man , just an evil bitter miserable person when it comes to people who do not benefit him or his bank account. He lives his life like there is air conditioning in Hell..and good for him I suppose....He has earned and built his $$$$ empire in the end I am afraid it won't be worth it . moving on .....How about some attention to unit 32 PV land owners ???

 

[OCHO]

People probably get away with stuff all the time, but if you are implying that wardens won’t or don’t enforce those laws I think you’re incorrect.

You can site somebody but they have to be convicted! Sounds relative but it’s not the same. Money and politics control the law not the other way around.

 

[mossback50cal]

You can site somebody but they have to be convicted! Sounds relative but it’s not the same. Money and politics control the law not the other way around.

Not only that, but our judicial system is garbage. People get away with any and everything now.