Another Educational Opportunity

[elkfromabove]

Apparently deer behave differently in different places.

Of course, because different places have different biological situations. But they ALL do what they have to do to stay alive and the bucks ALWAYS have the advantage, followed by the does and finally the fawns. In spite of what we're told in "Bambi", the bucks have no paternal instincts nor do they play a part in any kind of maternal social society like the does have. Their ONLY biological job is to impregnate the does. Once that's done, they become a biological liability taking up space and food that could be used by the does and fawns. To illustrate my point let's look at the stats BEFORE 1967:
1963:
Hunters Afield--199,219
Bucks Killed----67,392
Does Killed-----42,007
Total Deer Killed-109,399

1957:
Hunters Afield---173,656
Bucks Killed----61,475
Does Killed----44,124
Total Deer Killed--105,599

1951:
Hunters Afield---121,757
Bucks Killed-----67,329
Does Killed----34,308
Total Deer Killed---101,637

So, for 43 years, at least, we recruited enough fawns to replace the deer lost to hunting, roadkill, predators, diseases, winterkill, etc. Then in 1992-93 we had a real bad winter that made us re-think our management tactics and we started to manage for trophies.
Per 1994 Big Game Proclamation:
(1)-5 regions
(2)-Big Game Drawing-July 8
(3)-General Deer Season-Oct 22-28---7 days
(4)-Big game license- Res $5---No deer tag attached
(5)-General Deer tag-Res $17-Bucks only
(6)-Archery tag-Res $17-Bucks only
(7)-Muzzleloader tag-Res $17-Bucks only
(8)-Muzzleloader Season-Nov 2-8
(9)-LE Deer & PHU(CWMU) tag-Res $45
(10)-High Country Deer tag-Res $35
(11)-LE archery hunts
(12)-LE muzzleloader hunts
(13-Antlerless Deer tags-$13-one deer/$23-two deer
Harvest Results:
Hunters Afield---89,980
Bucks Killed-----29,227
Does Killed----699
Total deer killed-90,679

Admittedly, most of the years following 1994 had higher stats, but by 2004, we went below 100,000 hunters until we now have only about 70,000.

 

[Bluehair]

Of course, because different places have different biological situations. But they ALL do what they have to do to stay alive and the bucks ALWAYS have the advantage, followed by the does and finally the fawns. In spite of what we're told in "Bambi", the bucks have no paternal instincts nor do they play a part in any kind of maternal social society like the does have. Their ONLY biological job is to impregnate the does. Once that's done, they become a biological liability taking up space and food that could be used by the does and fawns. To illustrate my point let's look at the stats BEFORE 1967:
1963:
Hunters Afield--199,219
Bucks Killed----67,392
Does Killed-----42,007
Total Deer Killed-109,399

1957:
Hunters Afield---173,656
Bucks Killed----61,475
Does Killed----44,124
Total Deer Killed--105,599

1951:
Hunters Afield---121,757
Bucks Killed-----67,329
Does Killed----34,308
Total Deer Killed---101,637

So, for 43 years, at least, we recruited enough fawns to replace the deer lost to hunting, roadkill, predators, diseases, winterkill, etc. Then in 1992-93 we had a real bad winter that made us re-think our management tactics and we started to manage for trophies.
Per 1994 Big Game Proclamation:
(1)-5 regions
(2)-Big Game Drawing-July 8
(3)-General Deer Season-Oct 22-28---7 days
(4)-Big game license- Res $5---No deer tag attached
(5)-General Deer tag-Res $17-Bucks only
(6)-Archery tag-Res $17-Bucks only
(7)-Muzzleloader tag-Res $17-Bucks only
(8)-Muzzleloader Season-Nov 2-8
(9)-LE Deer & PHU(CWMU) tag-Res $45
(10)-High Country Deer tag-Res $35
(11)-LE archery hunts
(12)-LE muzzleloader hunts
(13-Antlerless Deer tags-$13-one deer/$23-two deer
Harvest Results:
Hunters Afield---89,980
Bucks Killed-----29,227
Does Killed----699
Total deer killed-90,679

Admittedly, most of the years following 1994 had higher stats, but by 2004, we went below 100,000 hunters until we now have only about 70,000.

Habitat destruction caused by humans is what is destroying mule deer populations. It’s not that hard. Run bambi run!

 

[elkassassin]

Lets Produce More Deer & Elk & Sell A Few More Tags!

Is That Un-Reasonable?

Instead Of The:

Don't Raise More Elk & Deer But Do A DOUBLE THE TAGS & Lower Buck Numbers Even More!

GEEZUS!

 

[elkassassin]

Look!

There's No Feed In blues Picture!

The Buck Is Surely Gonna Kill That Fawn!

I Call BS!

Habitat destruction caused by humans is what is destroying mule deer populations. It’s not that hard. Run bambi run!View attachment 141738

 

[elkfromabove]

So, what I am hearing is there is so little resources in the habitat that the current amount of deer on the landscape are competing for food to the point where the bucks are shanking fawns with their antlers. So, fewer bucks will lead to more deer on a landscape when the resources already can't handle the deer that are there?

No! The deer numbers remain the same. You're just trading the bucks killed with does and fawns that are alive. When you don't manage biologically, there's always tradeoffs.

 

[lostinOregon]

If managing a deer herd ad 8 to 12 bucks per hundred does works so well. Can you tell me why Oregon deer herds are at a historic low? Because we manage the same way and EVERY fork horn gets slaughtered every year. Thousand of tags for opportunity. This will not work at all.

 

[elkassassin]

Hey lostinoregon!

The Pro's Here Will Tell You Quickly DRATville Is Different Than Oregon!

But That's What They're Workin On Here Is A Strictly MOTL Hunt Statewide!

If managing a deer herd ad 8 to 12 bucks per hundred does works so well. Can you tell me why Oregon deer herds are at a historic low? Because we manage the same way and EVERY fork horn gets slaughtered every year. Thousand of tags for opportunity. This will not work at all.

 

[willfrye027]

If managing a deer herd ad 8 to 12 bucks per hundred does works so well. Can you tell me why Oregon deer herds are at a historic low? Because we manage the same way and EVERY fork horn gets slaughtered every year. Thousand of tags for opportunity. This will not work at all.

Nope, it’s because of drought. If you listen to the biologists you might learn something. Eastern Oregon had something like 30% fewer days of green feed in recent history…which means skinny does, skinny fawns, and less survival. yearling bucks have something like 50% mortality, not just hunting pressure…they are an expendable resource. It’s better that they’re hammering the forkies..less mouths to feed.

 

[elkassassin]

Nope, it’s because of drought. If you listen to the biologists you might learn something. Eastern Oregon had something like 30% fewer days of green feed in recent history…which means skinny does, skinny fawns, and less survival. yearling bucks have something like 50% mortality, not just hunting pressure…they are an expendable resource. It’s better that they’re hammering the forkies..less mouths to feed.

And There's The Modern Day Mentality Of Game Management Right There!

Let's Kill Em All Before They Eat All the Feed Up!

 

[willfrye027]

High Buck:doe is correlated with low DOE fat..leads to smaller fawns which are less likely to survive. Nobody is saying the bucks are killing fawns.

 

[elkassassin]

There Are People Here That Are Saying Bucks Are Killing The Fawns Which Is TOTAL BULLSSHITT For The Most Part!

High Buck:doe is correlated with low DOE fat..leads to smaller fawns which are less likely to survive. Nobody is saying the bucks are killing fawns.

 

[willfrye027]

And There's The Modern Day Mentality Of Game Management Right There!

Let's Kill Em All Before They Eat All the Feed Up!

How is that any different than in the 60s? How many guys were actually trophy hunting vs shooting a forked horn or a doe?

half of those forkies are not going to survive the first year of life anyways.

 

[elkassassin]

So You & Nilly Recommending A F'N Fawn Hunt?

Nilly Was Quick To Like You!

How is that any different than in the 60s? How many guys were actually trophy hunting vs shooting a forked horn or a doe?

half of those forkies are not going to survive the first year of life anyways.

 

[elkassassin]

I've Seen Some STUPID SHHITT Posted On This Website But This Thread Ranks Way Up There With The SMARTS Of Modern Day Great White Hunters!

 

[Vanilla]

Why any time someone comes in to discuss this rationally and have an adult conversation do you attack them and shout your lungs out?

What are you trying to cover up? What are you afraid of?

I’ll take a stab at what you’re trying to hide: That people will wake up and see how your preferred management style that allows you to pretend you belong at the table with the rich and famous has nearly completely ruined Utah hunting.

People tolerate you round here as sometimes you’re kind of funny. But goodness man, let people have a discussion. Quit being an insecure little baby.

 

[lostinOregon]

Nope, it’s because of drought. If you listen to the biologists you might learn something. Eastern Oregon had something like 30% fewer days of green feed in recent history…which means skinny does, skinny fawns, and less survival. yearling bucks have something like 50% mortality, not just hunting pressure…they are an expendable resource. It’s better that they’re hammering the forkies..less mouths to feed.

Well that’s interesting. Have you ever looked at the deer numbers in Columbia basin where it is 99 percent private and most owners manage their land? Same drought. I have mature deer and many in the area due to other landowners managing. Go across the road to ukiah and nothing. Management does matter and killing every available “extra” buck is not the solution. You need an age class spectrum to have a healthy herd. If UT goes this route let me know in 5 years if the herd is healthier.

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Nilly!

I Thought you were Smart Enough To See the Light!

But I Guess Not?

Not Attacking Anybody!

You Sure Hate It When I Put The Facts Out!

You Need To Start Thinking About The Future Of Game Herds Just A Little Past The 2024 Season!

You Got Kids?

Someday You'll Have Grand-Kids!

And With Some PROPER Management Just Maybe,I Said Maybe There Will Still Be Something Left For Them To Hunt!

Keep Your BS Management Up & Most Kids The Time You Have Grand-Kids Are Gonna Say F'It!

I Ain't Doing This!

KEEP BABBLIN Your BULLSSHHITT!

Why any time someone comes in to discuss this rationally and have an adult conversation do you attack them and shout your lungs out?

What are you trying to cover up? What are you afraid of?

I’ll take a stab at what you’re trying to hide: That people will wake up and see how your preferred management style that allows you to pretend you belong at the table with the rich and famous has nearly completely ruined Utah hunting.

People tolerate you round here as sometimes you’re kind of funny. But goodness man, let people have a discussion. Quit being an insecure little baby.

 

[elkassassin]

Read Post # 116 Nilly!

 

[elkassassin]

Maybe You Can Jump lostinOregon & Tell Him He Doesn't Know What He's Talking About!

Thanks For The Post lostinOregon!

 

[willfrye027]

Well that’s interesting. Have you ever looked at the deer numbers in Columbia basin where it is 99 percent private and most owners manage their land? Same drought. I have mature deer and many in the area due to other landowners managing. Go across the road to ukiah and nothing. Management does matter and killing every available “extra” buck is not the solution. You need an age class spectrum to have a healthy herd. If UT goes this route let me know in 5 years if the herd is healthier.

I don’t know anything about that Columbia basin, is there ag that’s providing some extra food and water? I just know in the desert times are tough but hopefully will improve with this weather and the drought breaking.

And what is the benefit of age structure in herd health? Obviously we hunters like it, but I’ve never heard biologists talk about it. Seems to me forky sperm is just as good as 190” buck sperm for getting does pregnant.

Obviously there are things we want in a deer herd as hunters, and things that the deer herd needs from a biological standpoint. And they’re not always the same.

I’ll wager the future is bright in Utah 5 years from now. but it’ll be from weather not any kind of BS management tiny little tweaks of seasons, ratios, tags whatever.

The whole buck:doe thing here is very interesting data and should be thought provoking; I don’t think anyone really wants 8:100…but it should make us think twice about continuing down the path of eternal tag cuts which don’t appear to do a damn thing.

 

[willfrye027]

Hey Nilly!

I Thought you were Smart Enough To See the Light!

But I Guess Not?

Not Attacking Anybody!

You Sure Hate It When I Put The Facts Out!

You Need To Start Thinking About The Future Of Game Herds Just A Little Past The 2024 Season!

You Got Kids?

Someday You'll Have Grand-Kids!

And With Some PROPER Management Just Maybe,I Said Maybe There Will Still Be Something Left For Them To Hunt!

Keep Your BS Management Up & Most Kids The Time You Have Grand-Kids Are Gonna Say F'It!

I Ain't Doing This!

KEEP BABBLIN Your BULLSSHHITT!

We ALL want our kids to hunt and the herds to be healthy.

I’d prefer my kid to actually have a tag, even if it’s a glorified forky hunt, rather than sit on the sidelines so the washed out old farts who have selective memory about the glory days can ride around trying to recreate something that won’t happen again.

 

[elkassassin]

If 80% Of The Posters Above Were Farmers They'd Be F'N Broke Within One GAWD-DAMNED Year!

I don’t know anything about that Columbia basin, is there ag that’s providing some extra food and water? I just know in the desert times are tough but hopefully will improve with this weather and the drought breaking.

And what is the benefit of age structure in herd health? Obviously we hunters like it, but I’ve never heard biologists talk about it. Seems to me forky sperm is just as good as 190” buck sperm for getting does pregnant.

Obviously there are things we want in a deer herd as hunters, and things that the deer herd needs from a biological standpoint. And they’re not always the same.

I’ll wager the future is bright in Utah 5 years from now. but it’ll be from weather not any kind of BS management tiny little tweaks of seasons, ratios, tags whatever.

The whole buck:doe thing here is very interesting data and should be thought provoking; I don’t think anyone really wants 8:100…but it should make us think twice about continuing down the path of eternal tag cuts which don’t appear to do a damn thing.

 

[elkassassin]

And Why Won't It Happen?

We ALL want our kids to hunt and the herds to be healthy.

I’d prefer my kid to actually have a tag, even if it’s a glorified forky hunt, rather than sit on the sidelines so the washed out old bastards who have selective memory about the glory days can ride around trying to recreate something that won’t happen again.

 

[elkassassin]

I Normally Don't Call People Names!

Founder Doesn't Tolerate It!

But When Somebody Calls Me A Name I'll Return The Favor!

 

[elkfromabove]

Show me one single deer cheatgrass has killed.

Quit blaming the symptoms and get on to the disease.

I could show you thousands of deer killed by cheatgrass, but few of them are directly killed by the stuff. It's not called CHEATgrass for nothing! I've found at least 23 ways it cheats that have an impact on wildlife, but only a few of them impact wildlife directly. Most of them kill deer indirectly with the reduction of nutrients, water, sugars, carbons and minerals in herbs, forbs, native grasses, flowers, leaves, mushrooms, etc. the deer eat. Fawns especially die from starvation or malnutrition which is caused from an inadequate diet. It also kills them with fires so hot, so fast and so often the native vegetations don't have time to recover. It's like saying someone died from smoking, when in reality they died from the effects the smoke had on their body. In any case, it's certainly not the number of buck tags issued that's killing them!

 

[elkfromabove]

So, what I am hearing is there is so little resources in the habitat that the current amount of deer on the landscape are competing for food to the point where the bucks are shanking fawns with their antlers. So, fewer bucks will lead to more deer on a landscape when the resources already can't handle the deer that are there?

No! The deer numbers don't change. We're merely replacing the dead bucks with does and fawns that are still alive.

 

[willfrye027]

And Why Won't It Happen?

Because Of JACK-Asses Just Like You!

You can choose to identify as one of the washed out if you want but it wasn’t explicitly directed towards you Elkass! If the herds disappear despite good, biology based management then at least we did our best to prevent it. If the herds disappear because we have too many bar stool biologists steering the ship, we will only have ourselves to blame.

 

[Vanilla]

. If UT goes this route let me know in 5 years if the herd is healthier.

What route? The only thing Utah has done is lose 1/3 of our deer tags tha last 5 years alone.

Don’t read a lying lunatic’s posts and think he is saying what anyone else is actually saying when he attributes it to them.

 

[elkassassin]

Surer Sounded Directed At Me But Whatever,I Can Handle It!

The DWR Is trying To Do The Right Thing Here!

BEAVIS,Nilly & A Bunch Of Others Don't Like It!

They Are Not looking In To The Future In The Right Way!


The GREED & The Almighty F'N Dollar Over-Rules In This State!

You can choose to identify as one of the washed out if you want but it wasn’t explicitly directed towards you Elkass! If the herds disappear despite good, biology based management then at least we did our best to prevent it. If the herds disappear because we have too many bar stool biologists steering the ship, we will only have ourselves to blame.

 

[elkassassin]

And SMART GUY?

How Many Deer Numbers Went Up During Them Cuts?

What route? The only thing Utah has done is lose 1/3 of our deer tags tha last 5 years alone.

Don’t read a lying lunatic’s posts and think he is saying what anyone else is actually saying when he attributes it to them.

 

[elkassassin]

You Can Bet Your ASS They Ain't Thinking Like I Am!

I Am Looking In To The Future Further Than Tomorrow Morning Un-Like You Nilly!

What route? The only thing Utah has done is lose 1/3 of our deer tags tha last 5 years alone.

Don’t read a lying lunatic’s posts and think he is saying what anyone else is actually saying when he attributes it to them.

 

[Vanilla]

You Can Bet Your ASS They Ain't Thinking Like I Am!

THANK THE GOOD LORD ABOVE FOR THAT!!!!!

 

[willfrye027]

Surer Sounded Directed At Me But Whatever,I Can Handle It!

The DWR Is trying To Do The Right Thing Here!

BEAVIS,Nilly & A Bunch Of Others Don't Like It!

They Are Not looking In To The Future In The Right Way!


The GREED & The Almighty F'N Dollar Over-Rules In This State!

I’ll agree that the DWR is trying to do the right thing, Utah at least has that going for them. I don’t know of another state doing as much research and trying to understand mule deer like Utah is. I don’t think the biologists give a crap about the money but obviously more players are involved in the game than just the bios.

 

[elkassassin]

They Are trying On This Elk Deal!

But You've Got The BEAVIS'S & The Nilly's That Think They Know Better!

I’ll agree that the DWR is trying to do the right thing, Utah at least has that going for them. I don’t know of another state doing as much research and trying to understand mule deer like Utah is. I don’t think the biologists give a crap about the money but obviously more players are involved in the game than just the bios.

 

[elkassassin]

KEEP BAWLING!

You BAWL Long Enough!

And You BAWL LOUD Enough!

Somebody Might Listen!

THANK THE GOOD LORD ABOVE FOR THAT!!!!!

 

[elkhunter81]

KEEP BAWLING!

You BAWL Long Enough!

And You BAWL LOUD Enough!

Somebody Might Listen!

speaking of bawling and greed, did you ever go on your San Juan elk hunt? i remember when you would post your point totals but haven't seen that the last few years. if you did draw how was it?

 

[Bluehair]

I could show you thousands of deer killed by cheatgrass, but few of them are directly killed by the stuff. It's not called CHEATgrass for nothing! I've found at least 23 ways it cheats that have an impact on wildlife, but only a few of them impact wildlife directly. Most of them kill deer indirectly with the reduction of nutrients, water, sugars, carbons and minerals in herbs, forbs, native grasses, flowers, leaves, mushrooms, etc. the deer eat. Fawns especially die from starvation or malnutrition which is caused from an inadequate diet. It also kills them with fires so hot, so fast and so often the native vegetations don't have time to recover. It's like saying someone died from smoking, when in reality they died from the effects the smoke had on their body. In any case, it's certainly not the number of buck tags issued that's killing them!

They just eat it here….weird. I watch them doing it here every single day this time of year.

 

[elkassassin]

Hoping To Mentor A Grand-Kid Or Two From Here On Out If I Live Long Enough For It To Happen!

Unlike Most Others here!

I'm Hoping There's Some Quality Left By Then!

speaking of bawling and greed, did you ever go on your San Juan elk hunt? i remember when you would post your point totals but haven't seen that the last few years. if you did draw how was it?

 

[willfrye027]

Hoping To Mentor A Grand-Kid Or Two From Here On Out If I Live Long Enough For It To Happen!

Unlike Most Others here!

I'm Hoping There's Some Quality Left By Then!

Serious question—do your grandkids care about the size of the antlers? Are they going to turn there nose up at a 300” bull?

 

[willfrye027]

If guys could just be HONEST about what they want..

I get it. Average bucks and bulls don’t get you excited anymore. You want to be wowed. You’ve seen and killed some giants in the past and want another one.

That’s totally fine, but be honest about it. You want quality over opportunity. And that’s ok.

But, you are far outnumbered by average people who just want to hunt, and want their kids to hunt, and want to hunt with friends.

 

[Vanilla]

Honesty is not real high on some people’s priority list.

There are some out there that own their motives and I can respect that, even if we don’t see eye to eye.

Good luck on this one!

 

[willfrye027]

Honesty is not real high on some people’s priority list.

There are some out there that own their motives and I can respect that, even if we don’t see eye to eye.

Good luck on this one!

how about honesty, and a realistic outlook! Realistically we are in a valley. I believe there are some peaks yet to come. During the peaks we can have plenty of opportunity AND some great animals out there to hunt. Heck, I am having great hunts every year on crappy tags where herds are not doing well. Seeing and hunting some big deer too. Taking that tag away from me, isn’t going to get us out of the slump any faster. You save a forky or two they’re going to get killed by their own stupidity (50/50) anyways.

The part of human nature that seeks to control things which cannot be controlled…so frustrating. It’s unfortunately very similar to the way democrats want to legislate the country into some utopia where everybody is happy and nobody gets hurt. It’s not going to happen!

 

[elkassassin]

I Don't Care What Who Shoots!

My One Grand-Daughter Is Only 8,She Knows What A Good Bull Is!

The Hunting Could Be Totally Destroyed Before Any Of This Might Happens!

Serious question—do your grandkids care about the size of the antlers? Are they going to turn there nose up at a 300” bull?

 

[willfrye027]

I Don't Care What Who Shoots!

My One Grand-Daughter Is Only 8,She Knows What A Good Bull Is!

The Hunting Could Be Totally Destroyed Before Any Of This Might Happens!

Yes, it could be totally destroyed. The antis would love to take it away from you and your granddaughter. That’s the most realistic way it’ll be destroyed. The elk are not going anywhere. And while we’re arguing about crap that doesn’t matter (tag cuts, buck:doe, age class structure), we should be focused building a united front. We should be figuring out what actually affects herds and population growth…keeping youth engaged with opportunity…and demonstrating our ability as hunters to manage wildlife responsibly.

 

[lostinOregon]

There are some crops in Columbia basin, potatoes, watermelons and winter wheat. Most of the deer are in the CRP. Here is where Oregon is at now with managing for 8 to 12 bucks. It appears that didn’t work and are now going to monitor harvest.

 

[elkassassin]

I Totally Agree!

If I Never Take Another Big Game Animal Myself I'm Gonna Be Just Fine!

Sure Would Like To see The Younger Generations Get A Shot At It Though!

Yes, it could be totally destroyed. The antis would love to take it away from you and your granddaughter. That’s the most realistic way it’ll be destroyed. The elk are not going anywhere. And while we’re arguing about crap that doesn’t matter (tag cuts, buck:doe, age class structure), we should be focused building a united front. We should be figuring out what actually affects herds and population growth…keeping youth engaged with opportunity…and demonstrating our ability as hunters to manage wildlife responsibly.

 

[elkassassin]

OK willfrye!

I Edited The Name Calling Post!

Sorry!

Just Thought Your Post Was Directed At Me & Me Only!

 

[willfrye027]

OK willfrye!

I Edited The Name Calling Post!

Sorry!

Just Thought Your Post Was Directed At Me & Me Only!

I cleaned up my language too..but I can take it and don’t mind a heated debate one bit!

 

[willfrye027]

There are some crops in Columbia basin, potatoes, watermelons and winter wheat. Most of the deer are in the CRP. Here is where Oregon is at now with managing for 8 to 12 bucks. It appears that didn’t work and are now going to monitor harvest.

View attachment 141751

I’d like to think what they call “climate change” is just prolonged drought that will correct itself..but no denying the lack of feed is wrecking havoc on your herds and mine to the south of you. Sounds like Oregon is ready to admit they have a problem..wish I could say the same about my state.

 

[elkassassin]

Well!

If You've Been Around This Joint Much You Know I'm Usually In On Most Of Them That Are Heated!

I cleaned up my language too..but I can take it and don’t mind a heated debate one bit!

 

[Betterluckythangood]

Of course, because different places have different biological situations. But they ALL do what they have to do to stay alive and the bucks ALWAYS have the advantage, followed by the does and finally the fawns. In spite of what we're told in "Bambi", the bucks have no paternal instincts nor do they play a part in any kind of maternal social society like the does have. Their ONLY biological job is to impregnate the does. Once that's done, they become a biological liability taking up space and food that could be used by the does and fawns. To illustrate my point let's look at the stats BEFORE 1967:
1963:
Hunters Afield--199,219
Bucks Killed----67,392
Does Killed-----42,007
Total Deer Killed-109,399

1957:
Hunters Afield---173,656
Bucks Killed----61,475
Does Killed----44,124
Total Deer Killed--105,599

1951:
Hunters Afield---121,757
Bucks Killed-----67,329
Does Killed----34,308
Total Deer Killed---101,637

So, for 43 years, at least, we recruited enough fawns to replace the deer lost to hunting, roadkill, predators, diseases, winterkill, etc. Then in 1992-93 we had a real bad winter that made us re-think our management tactics and we started to manage for trophies.
Per 1994 Big Game Proclamation:
(1)-5 regions
(2)-Big Game Drawing-July 8
(3)-General Deer Season-Oct 22-28---7 days
(4)-Big game license- Res $5---No deer tag attached
(5)-General Deer tag-Res $17-Bucks only
(6)-Archery tag-Res $17-Bucks only
(7)-Muzzleloader tag-Res $17-Bucks only
(8)-Muzzleloader Season-Nov 2-8
(9)-LE Deer & PHU(CWMU) tag-Res $45
(10)-High Country Deer tag-Res $35
(11)-LE archery hunts
(12)-LE muzzleloader hunts
(13-Antlerless Deer tags-$13-one deer/$23-two deer
Harvest Results:
Hunters Afield---89,980
Bucks Killed-----29,227
Does Killed----699
Total deer killed-90,679

Admittedly, most of the years following 1994 had higher stats, but by 2004, we went below 100,000 hunters until we now have only about 70,000.

Thank you for posting this information for us. It’s interesting stuff. I would also add that you couldn’t hunt big game until you were sixteen until at least early eighties I think.

Since most of us are too lazy, especially myself I wonder if you could dig up that kind of information on elk hunting in that general era at your leisure? That would be interesting also.

 

[Vanilla]

Elk hunting in the 50s and 60s in Utah?

I'm guessing most would have said "Elk hunting? What is that?"

 

[Dangbig]

Elk hunting in the 50s and 60s in Utah?

I'm guessing most would have said "Elk hunting? What is that?"

Elk hunting was behind dove hunting for a long time.deer and pheasant were 1-2 We use to call a elk tag a camping permit there just wasn’t many until the late 80s

 

[elkfromabove]

Thank you for posting this information for us. It’s interesting stuff. I would also add that you couldn’t hunt big game until you were sixteen until at least early eighties I think.

Since most of us are too lazy, especially myself I wonder if you could dig up that kind of information on elk hunting in that general era at your leisure? That would be interesting also.

You're correct about the age limit at 16. That didn't change until sometime between 1973 and 1989 when it turned to 14. But any hunter below age 16 had to be accompanied by his/her parent or guardian or by a licensed adult age 21 or over designated by the parent or guardian, and both of them had to carry papers to show the CO they were in compliance with the rules.

As far as the elk stats go, sometime between the yearly gap mentioned above, they combined the deer procs with the other species procs and it became the Big Game Proclamation, Unfortunately I don't have any elk stuff earlier than the 1989-90 Big Game Proclamation. However, I might be able to find some harvest info before then. I doubt I could GRAMA that stuff because the DWR doesn't keep very much info beyond that date. And besides, it would cost me a small fortune to have them copy and correlate those newspaper style proclamations. It took me a week at the Utah State Archives to get the ones I've got. (I couln't get them in color and, of course, I couldn't damage them, so I wore gloves.) Of course we've got phone cameras now, so maybe it wouldn't be too bad. I'll get back to you in a day or so.

 

[elkfromabove]

Well that’s interesting. Have you ever looked at the deer numbers in Columbia basin where it is 99 percent private and most owners manage their land? Same drought. I have mature deer and many in the area due to other landowners managing. Go across the road to ukiah and nothing. Management does matter and killing every available “extra” buck is not the solution. You need an age class spectrum to have a healthy herd. If UT goes this route let me know in 5 years if the herd is healthier.

Of course, management matters! You prove my point! It might be the same drought, but it ain't the same water or feed. If we could manage public land like farmers/ranchers manage private land, we'd have the same results. The trouble is: WE CAN'T!

Habitat destruction caused by humans is what is destroying mule deer populations. It’s not that hard. Run bambi run!View attachment 141738

The buck is still in velvet! Of course they aren't in competition for food yet! Take that picture in December and see if they are so cuddly! Or if the feed is still green!

 

[Bluehair]

Of course, management matters! You prove my point! It might be the same drought, but it ain't the same water or feed. If we could manage public land like farmers/ranchers manage private land, we'd have the same results. The trouble is: WE CAN'T!

The buck is still in velvet! Of course they aren't in competition for food yet! Take that picture in December and see if they are so cuddly! Or if the feed is still green!

Spray the whole state for all I care. Anything to keep issuing 4,000,000 tags a year. At least you can say you did something.

Look in the photo a day thread to see plenty of my pictures of bucks hanging out with the gals. Also lots of pictures of them eating cheatgrass.

I do not have any pictures of crazed carnivorous bucks attacking and killing the women and children; just each other.

 

[elkassassin]

I've Spent A Minute Or Two Watching Mule Deer!

I've Seen Deer Bunt Each Other!

Playing Around!

I've Seen Buck To Buck Fights Thar Are Quite Something To See At RUT Time!

I've Never Seen A Buck Kill A Fawn Over Groceries!

Not Saying It Couldn't Happen Once In A Million Kind Of A Deal!

We Basically Feed Deer Here Every Year!

I Have Not Found A Dead Fawn That Was Killed By Another Buck Unless Them Said Bucks Are Eating Them As Well!

I Did Have One Of Our Local Kitties Kill A Doe In My Field Last Summer!

They Keep Coming Up With BS Excuses As To Why The Mismanaged Deer Herd Has Been Diminishing For Years!

They're Stooping Perty Low With Their BULLSSHITT Excuses & Many Are SUCKING It Down!

I Thought Most Hunters Were Smarter Than What We're Seeing Now!

 

[MrShane]

What route? The only thing Utah has done is lose 1/3 of our deer tags tha last 5 years alone.

Don’t read a lying lunatic’s posts and think he is saying what anyone else is actually saying when he attributes it to them.

Wrong.
Utah has done much more than just cut tags.
We have an Expo that we give hundreds of tags to that should stay in our general draw to lower our point creep.

 

[elkassassin]

Telling Nilly He Is WRONG!

Gotta Love That!

Thanks MrShane!

Wrong.
Utah has done much more than just cut tags.
We have an Expo that we give hundreds of tags to that should stay in our general draw to lower our point creep.

 

[elkassassin]

Nilly Keeps PISSING Himself Over Cut Tags!

Not F'N Once Has He Took In To Consideration The Deer Numbers Decreasing!

REAL F'N SMART Right There!

 

[Vanilla]

Wrong.
Utah has done much more than just cut tags.
We have an Expo that we give hundreds of tags to that should stay in our general draw to lower our point creep.

This is hilarious, MrShane! The poster (or poser?) won’t even understand why. Thanks for setting this up to provide the humor for me this morning.

 

[elkassassin]

Calling Nilly Wrong!

And Again!

Must Hurt!

LMMFAO!

 

[elkfromabove]

I've Spent A Minute Or Two Watching Mule Deer!

I've Seen Deer Bunt Each Other!

Playing Around!

I've Seen Buck To Buck Fights Thar Are Quite Something To See At RUT Time!

I've Never Seen A Buck Kill A Fawn Over Groceries!

Not Saying It Couldn't Happen Once In A Million Kind Of A Deal!

We Basically Feed Deer Here Every Year!

I Have Not Found A Dead Fawn That Was Killed By Another Buck Unless Them Said Bucks Are Eating Them As Well!

I Did Have One Of Our Local Kitties Kill A Doe In My Field Last Summer!

They Keep Coming Up With BS Excuses As To Why The Mismanaged Deer Herd Has Been Diminishing For Years!

They're Stooping Perty Low With Their BULLSSHITT Excuses & Many Are SUCKING It Down!
o

You're back to your old habit of putting your words in somebody else's post to make your point! Spend a minute or two reading my post again! I NEVER said bucks were killing does or fawns with their antlers! I said they were pushing them away from the feed and water! And sometimes they don't even have to use their antlers because the does and fawns already fear them. It's like the wild horses around here. I've seen them drive away deer, elk, and pronghorn just by showing up! They've ruined at least 3 of my hunts by doing that. And one of those hunts could have gotten me killed by the herd of elk that ran towards my blind. Luckily, my blind was on a small hill they ran around on one side. I've said many times, when you manage game by social standards instead of biology, you lose and so do the animals.

 

[elkassassin]

Hey efa!

That Wasn't Directed At You!

Somebody-else A While Back Claimed The Bucks Were Smacking The Fawns Over The Feed & Killing Some Of Them!

Kinda Like The BS Excuse Of Us Having Too Many Bucks On The Landscape In Todays World,I Guess I Haven't Been To That Place In This State!

You're back to your old habit of putting your words in somebody else's post to make your point! Spend a minute or two reading my post again! I NEVER said bucks were killing does or fawns with their antlers! I said they were pushing them away from the feed and water! And sometimes they don't even have to use their antlers because the does and fawns already fear them. It's like the wild horses around here. I've seen them drive away deer, elk, and pronghorn just by showing up! They've ruined at least 3 of my hunts by doing that. And one of those hunts could have gotten me killed by the herd of elk that ran towards my blind. Luckily, my blind was on a small hill they ran around on one side. I've said many times, when you manage game by social standards instead of biology, you lose and so do the animals.

 

[notdonhunting]

Hey efa!

That Wasn't Directed At You!

Somebody-else A While Back Claimed The Bucks Were Smacking The Fawns Over The Feed & Killing Some Of Them!

Kinda Like The BS Excuse Of Us Having Too Many Bucks On The Landscape In Todays World,I Guess I Haven't Been To That Place In This State!

Only mention on this thread of a BUCK KILLING A FAWN DIRECTLY was you.
Stop making up

Look!

There's No Feed In blues Picture!

The Buck Is Surely Gonna Kill That Fawn!

I Call BS!

 

[elkassassin]

PAY- A-F'N-TENTION notdon!

I Didn't Say It Was In This Thread!

We've Heard The Bucks Killing The Fawns A Few Times Over The Years!

I'm Not Saying It Can't Happen!

But The Number Would Be So Low You Can't Add It To The Fake List Of Excuses For Poor Management!

Only mention on this thread of a BUCK KILLING A FAWN DIRECTLY was you.
Stop making up

 

[Vanilla]

Bessy is a liar. Plain and simple.

Carry on.

 

[elkassassin]

You Can Run Your BIG F'N Mouth All You Want Tough Guy!

But Your BULLSSHITT Excuses & Game Management Are Really WEAK!

Bessy is a liar. Plain and simple.

Carry on.

 

[elkfromabove]

The numbers don't lie!

 

[elkfromabove]

Explain this in terms of bucks killed! Anybody?

1925---(does-------0)---(bucks----1,400)----(hunters----5,650)
1928---(does-------0)---(bucks----4,400)----(hunters---11,300)
1931---(does-------0)---(bucks----7,800)----(hunters---19,500)
1934---(does-----825)---(bucks--11,271)----(hunters---22,413)
1937---(does--------0)---(bucks--21,000)----(hunters---38,900)
1940---(does--11,700)---(bucks--32,300)----(hunters---74,437)
1943---(does--15,568)---(bucks--40,140)----(hunters---96,425)
1946---(does--10,094)---(bucks--43,277)----(hunters--106,356)
1949---(does--12,602)---(bucks--47,932)----(hunters--106,230)
1952---(does--33,554)---(bucks--56,607)----(hunters--128,674)
1955---(does--36,598)---(bucks--75,319)----(hunters--154,157)
1958---(does--45,376)---(bucks--71,865)----(hunters--174,657)
1961---(does--53,275)---(bucks--79,007)----(hunters--202,305)
1964---(does--42,242)---(bucks--73,358)----(hunters--198,768)
1967---(does--34,355)---(bucks--55,798)----(hunters--172,584)
1970---(does--32,582)---(bucks--70,407)----(hunters--196,633)
1973---(does--32,587)---(bucks--53,983)----(hunters--225,723)
1976---(does-------95)---(bucks--56,928)----(hunters--187,450)
1979---(does----5,387)---(bucks--60,876)----(hunters--222,127)
1982---(does---10,890)---(bucks--75,094)----(hunters--237,836)
1985---(does----5,171)---(bucks--59,082)----(hunters--217,114)
1988---(does---22,235)---(bucks--68,503)----(hunters--248,685)
1991---(does---13,534)---(bucks--53,342)----(hunters--222,981)
1994---(does------699)---(bucks--29,227)----(hunters---89,980)
1997---(does----3,246)---(bucks--29,800)----(hunters--112,391)
2000---(does----4,520)---(bucks--33,031)----(hunters--103,336)
2003---(does----2,524)---(bucks--22,525)----(hunters---90,770)
2006---(does----1,856)---(bucks--30,548)----(hunters----88,452)
2009---(does----2,596)---(bucks--25,415)----(hunters----86,572)
2012---(does----1,711)---(bucks--27,700)----(hunters----79,066)
2015---(does----2,887)---(bucks--31,969)----(hunters----86,405)
2018---(does----4,050)---(bucks--32,010)----(hunters----86,788)
2021---(does----2,003)---(bucks--24,628)----(hunters----68,624)
2022---(does----1,960)---(bucks--25,576)----(hunters----67,653)

 

[wstrntines]

Bottom line the Govt. sucks at their job. So there’s great ways to police yourself and incentivize killing mature deer. 1. Don’t shoot long range. 2. Enter the Muleys matter raffle, my wife won $500.00 + worth of new gear just for an unpunched tag. 3. Completely quit buying real estate and crash the market because the government keeps intervening to not let it crash and kicking the can down the road. The reason I say this is if the price of land can come down and we can buy land out in front of developers that they can never have on winter range we might be able to grow some deer and maintain some better quality. And number 3 is the biggest reason we can’t grow deer. Rokcast did a podcast a couple weeks ago showing where the Biden admin will destroy and disrupt winter range and migration corridors.I haven’t listened to this podcast. But I know 2 of it those guys are great at killing big deer and very knowledgeable. And like others have been saying the last 30 years hasn’t lead to growing deer.

 

[Bluehair]

Explain this in terms of bucks killed! Anybody?

1925---(does-------0)---(bucks----1,400)----(hunters----5,650)
1928---(does-------0)---(bucks----4,400)----(hunters---11,300)
1931---(does-------0)---(bucks----7,800)----(hunters---19,500)
1934---(does-----825)---(bucks--11,271)----(hunters---22,413)
1937---(does--------0)---(bucks--21,000)----(hunters---38,900)
1940---(does--11,700)---(bucks--32,300)----(hunters---74,437)
1943---(does--15,568)---(bucks--40,140)----(hunters---96,425)
1946---(does--10,094)---(bucks--43,277)----(hunters--106,356)
1949---(does--12,602)---(bucks--47,932)----(hunters--106,230)
1952---(does--33,554)---(bucks--56,607)----(hunters--128,674)
1955---(does--36,598)---(bucks--75,319)----(hunters--154,157)
1958---(does--45,376)---(bucks--71,865)----(hunters--174,657)
1961---(does--53,275)---(bucks--79,007)----(hunters--202,305)
1964---(does--42,242)---(bucks--73,358)----(hunters--198,768)
1967---(does--34,355)---(bucks--55,798)----(hunters--172,584)
1970---(does--32,582)---(bucks--70,407)----(hunters--196,633)
1973---(does--32,587)---(bucks--53,983)----(hunters--225,723)
1976---(does-------95)---(bucks--56,928)----(hunters--187,450)
1979---(does----5,387)---(bucks--60,876)----(hunters--222,127)
1982---(does---10,890)---(bucks--75,094)----(hunters--237,836)
1985---(does----5,171)---(bucks--59,082)----(hunters--217,114)
1988---(does---22,235)---(bucks--68,503)----(hunters--248,685)
1991---(does---13,534)---(bucks--53,342)----(hunters--222,981)
1994---(does------699)---(bucks--29,227)----(hunters---89,980)
1997---(does----3,246)---(bucks--29,800)----(hunters--112,391)
2000---(does----4,520)---(bucks--33,031)----(hunters--103,336)
2003---(does----2,524)---(bucks--22,525)----(hunters---90,770)
2006---(does----1,856)---(bucks--30,548)----(hunters----88,452)
2009---(does----2,596)---(bucks--25,415)----(hunters----86,572)
2012---(does----1,711)---(bucks--27,700)----(hunters----79,066)
2015---(does----2,887)---(bucks--31,969)----(hunters----86,405)
2018---(does----4,050)---(bucks--32,010)----(hunters----86,788)
2021---(does----2,003)---(bucks--24,628)----(hunters----68,624)
2022---(does----1,960)---(bucks--25,576)----(hunters----67,653)

The trend has been pretty stable between 25 and 30 thousand bucks since the early/mid ‘90’s.

So it looks to me like you shot all the deer in the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s and now you’re all confused about what happened. Meanwhile the winter range was covered with houses.

Why is it so hard?

But what’ll probably happen is someone will point out that there were more bucks back when you shot 50,000 does so you obviously need to shoot more does if you want to fix things.

 

[wstrntines]

Explain this in terms of bucks killed! Anybody?

1925---(does-------0)---(bucks----1,400)----(hunters----5,650)
1928---(does-------0)---(bucks----4,400)----(hunters---11,300)
1931---(does-------0)---(bucks----7,800)----(hunters---19,500)
1934---(does-----825)---(bucks--11,271)----(hunters---22,413)
1937---(does--------0)---(bucks--21,000)----(hunters---38,900)
1940---(does--11,700)---(bucks--32,300)----(hunters---74,437)
1943---(does--15,568)---(bucks--40,140)----(hunters---96,425)
1946---(does--10,094)---(bucks--43,277)----(hunters--106,356)
1949---(does--12,602)---(bucks--47,932)----(hunters--106,230)
1952---(does--33,554)---(bucks--56,607)----(hunters--128,674)
1955---(does--36,598)---(bucks--75,319)----(hunters--154,157)
1958---(does--45,376)---(bucks--71,865)----(hunters--174,657)
1961---(does--53,275)---(bucks--79,007)----(hunters--202,305)
1964---(does--42,242)---(bucks--73,358)----(hunters--198,768)
1967---(does--34,355)---(bucks--55,798)----(hunters--172,584)
1970---(does--32,582)---(bucks--70,407)----(hunters--196,633)
1973---(does--32,587)---(bucks--53,983)----(hunters--225,723)
1976---(does-------95)---(bucks--56,928)----(hunters--187,450)
1979---(does----5,387)---(bucks--60,876)----(hunters--222,127)
1982---(does---10,890)---(bucks--75,094)----(hunters--237,836)
1985---(does----5,171)---(bucks--59,082)----(hunters--217,114)
1988---(does---22,235)---(bucks--68,503)----(hunters--248,685)
1991---(does---13,534)---(bucks--53,342)----(hunters--222,981)
1994---(does------699)---(bucks--29,227)----(hunters---89,980)
1997---(does----3,246)---(bucks--29,800)----(hunters--112,391)
2000---(does----4,520)---(bucks--33,031)----(hunters--103,336)
2003---(does----2,524)---(bucks--22,525)----(hunters---90,770)
2006---(does----1,856)---(bucks--30,548)----(hunters----88,452)
2009---(does----2,596)---(bucks--25,415)----(hunters----86,572)
2012---(does----1,711)---(bucks--27,700)----(hunters----79,066)
2015---(does----2,887)---(bucks--31,969)----(hunters----86,405)
2018---(does----4,050)---(bucks--32,010)----(hunters----86,788)
2021---(does----2,003)---(bucks--24,628)----(hunters----68,624)
2022---(does----1,960)---(bucks--25,576)----(hunters----67,653)

Post WW2 to 91 there was a huge uptick in deer killed. I’m sure that was a fun time of deer hunting. No gunwerks rifles or 30 influencers spread across every knob and a sh!t ton of winter range available. Maybe we can make the future bright for us and our kids deer hunting.

 

[willfrye027]

248k hunters in 1988! And we complain now about hunter crowding.

 

[elkfromabove]

Post WW2 to 91 there was a huge uptick in deer killed. I’m sure that was a fun time of deer hunting. No gunwerks rifles or 30 influencers spread across every knob and a sh!t ton of winter range available. Maybe we can make the future bright for us and our kids deer hunting.

248k hunters in 1988! And we complain now about hunter crowding.

I posted those numbers hoping someone else would be able to figure out what happened and these two posts are getting close.

 

[middlefork]

https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1166&context=usupress_pubs

Pages 17,18

"Hunters and wildlife biologists desiring a higher quality hunt and a higher proportion of mature bucks in the harvest, as were often available during the 1950s and 1960s, caused the establishment of special hunts: limited entry and high country (hunter restriction), and three point and better (antler restriction). The advantages and disadvantages of these hunt types were intensively debated. The continuance of special hunts in the twenty-first century will probably depend less on biological inputs and harvest and more on hunter preferences. Indeed, the need to evaluate the quality of the hunting experience was poignantly recognized during these years. The two major issues of hunting quality—too many hunters and too few mature bucks—led to the major changes in regulations and hunter choices in the 1993fall hunts.
1993, hunters were required to choose and hunt only one season: archery, rifle or muzzleloader. This was a very significant and primary change from the wildlife management policy adopted and practiced for 80 years, since 1914. Prior to 1993, hunters obtaining a deer tag could hunt any legal season. This new policy, which has continued through the 2009 season, was adopted to reduce hunter crowding during the rifle hunt and increase the percentage of surviving bucks. To meet that goal, a secondary regulation restricting hunters with an antlerless tag from also hunting bucks was adopted, but that regulation was repealed the following year. Hunting opportunity was again significantly restricted in 1994 when deer permit sales for the general season buck hunts were capped at 97,000. That was an even more significant and primary change from the 1914 wildlife management policy. Prior to 1993, deer license sales were not limited. However, because of the difficulty of monitoring sales throughout Utah, sales exceeded the cap by several thousand through at least 1998. In 1999 and thereafter, the monitoring of license sales was greatly improved and the 97,000 buck deer hunter permit cap became firmly established and enforced. With considerable discussion, the deer permit sales cap has been widely accepted by hunters and has continued with only minor changes."

 

[Vanilla]

Interesting to see the timing of all this and the policies implemented around those times.

Maybe killing more bucks isn’t the evil devil we’ve been told by some all these years?

I guess we could FURTHER restrict hunters and cut tags even MORE and see if it will finally start working. That would make some happy, but not sure it will help the deer.

Maybe we ought to try something different. Something biological. Something that we haven’t done the last 30 years that might actually work?

Nah…let’s just stay the course, right??? (Insert sarcasm emoji here)

 

[elkfromabove]

Post WW2 to 91 there was a huge uptick in deer killed. I’m sure that was a fun time of deer hunting. No gunwerks rifles or 30 influencers spread across every knob and a sh!t ton of winter range available. Maybe we can make the future bright for us and our kids deer hunting.

Why the huge uptake beginning in 1940?

 

[2lumpy]

I posted those numbers hoping someone else would be able to figure out what happened and these two posts are getting close.

I’ll take a try at it.

By 1983 the bureaucracy had come to believe, “there was nothing you could do to reduce the number of mule deer.”

Specifically, they said, “stop worrying about the buck doe ratio being 4/100 or less, mule deer are like flies, no matter what you/we do, you/we can’t kill them all.”

They absolutely believed that. And some of them (not all) still do. The bureaucrats that had managed the mule deer for the previous 30/40 years had seen and learned from personal experience, the following things:
1. The weather doesn’t matter. Because they didn’t die off during the back to back ten dries years since Europeans arrive here to stay, in the Dirty Thirties.

They didn’t die off during the bitter cold and snowy 1950/60/70/80/90s. (The population didn’t start declining in the last half of the 1980’s but because they were so ungrained in the idea that “you can’t kill’em all, their like flies,” they ignored their counts and the public’s concerned input in the public hearings.” If they did see it themselves, they were told by their older mentor employees, “don’t worry, they always bounce back”.

In the mid 1950’s the bureaucrats got so much pressure from the public live stock growers, over the mule deer population bursting at the seams, the bureaucrats did studies to determine, mule deer vs mule deer habitat issues and became alarmed. In response, they promoted additional license sales to kill both buck and does. Over the counter, no limit on the number of hunters. Advertised aggressively in neighboring States, most heavily in California to plead and beg out of State hunters to come and help remove more mule deer. The number of mule deer hunter rose to nearly 250,000 by the mid 1980’s.

Yet, as this posted data shows, it wasn’t until the mid 1980’s when the buck and die populations began to decline. So….. between 1950 and 1980’s, they could further embedded their long standing belief, “weather can kill’em, predators can’t kill’em, and regardless of the number of hunters that go after them, they can’t kill them either. And……. they had the evidence to support their belief.

When the sheep population started to switch to cattle on both the summer and winter range, the deer population took no significant hit, proven by a predictable ever increasing population of mule deer, based on there pellet counts, State wide buck harvest reports, and fall population counts. Always more mule deer, every year more, never a sustained decline.

Predator poison was outlawed in the 1950’s. Until the early 1990’s. there was no knowledge, or at least, no verbal spoken concern expressed by the bureaucracy that predators were impacting mule deer populations. They do now, but they still nearly choke on it when they say it. (That’s why the legislature had to do something more.). So until the last 10 years the predator numbers increased will the mule deer population declined.

They reintroduced 155 elk from Yellowstone in 1911/12 and as the small populations grew they captured and moved them throughout the State. As the mule deer began to decline in the late 1990’s sportsmen began to ask the bureaucrats if it could possibly be increasing elk numbers causing the mule deer to decline. They’re answer was……the mule are not declining and Colorado has had thriving herds of both elk and mule deer long before Utah had elk in any numbers, so we know there is no conflict between those two species. They don’t compete because they eat different plants………..

I could go on about the “you can’t kill’em all” management ideology that has permeated the bureaucracy since mule peeked out in the early 1980’s and I will say, while there may, in the last 3 or 4 years……. been a few cracks starting to manifest themselves in those old embedded beliefs, the desired increase in number of tag by some 6,000 this fall would indicate there is still a lukewarm effort to try to turn the ship around.

For what it’s worth, just another opinion offered.

I’ll attach this in case anyone would like to see a little fuller detail on the harvest numbers over the years. It’s was copied from the UDWR 2007 Big Game Report, Page 10, 11, 12.

https://wildlife.utah.gov/pdf/annual_reports/big_game/07_bg_report.pdf

 

[2lumpy]

Why the huge uptake beginning in 1940?

Possibly more bucks?

Possibly fewer hunters, during WW II followed by the Korean War 1950 thru 53. Huge mule deer population caused genuine alarm, fearful of another Kaibab disastrous die off. Beginning of the “you can’t kill’em all, they are like flies.”

 

[elkassassin]

People Like Lumpy Have Forgot More About Deer Management Than Most Will Ever Know!

Interesting to see the timing of all this and the policies implemented around those times.

Maybe killing more bucks isn’t the evil devil we’ve been told by some all these years?

I guess we could FURTHER restrict hunters and cut tags even MORE and see if it will finally start working. That would make some happy, but not sure it will help the deer.

Maybe we ought to try something different. Something biological. Something that we haven’t done the last 30 years that might actually work?

Nah…let’s just stay the course, right??? (Insert sarcasm emoji here)

 

[elkassassin]

You've Heard Me Say:

We Don't Need To Keep Doing STUPID Sshhitt!

But We Surely Don't Need To Start Doing Different STUPID Sshhitt!

 

[wstrntines]

248k hunters in 1988! And we complain now about hunter crowding.

Well over half a million deer on the landscape back then too.

 

[elkfromabove]

Why the huge uptake beginning in 1940?

I'd like to hear from some of you who haven't or who don't usually post. We already know what the regulars think, but they are in a small minority and they think they are speaking for you. Are they?

 

[elkassassin]

I'll CHIME In efa!

There's Never Been An Accurate Deer Count!

I'd like to hear from some of you who haven't or who don't usually post. We already know what the regulars think, but they are in a small minority and they think they are speaking for you. Are they?

 

[Mallardsx2]

I drew a late Zion muzzy tag five years ago and burned 15 points I think.

A cold front moved through about five days before it opened and the locals told me the deer were on the move.

They were. I counted at least 150 does before I saw one with antlers. It was unbelievable.

That kind of ruined my appetite for low B to D ratios. There had to be good bucks somewhere. Just couldn’t figure out where or how to get there. Record heat wave during the hunt didn’t help.

On a hunt I was on in 2018 I was seeing 150 or more mule deer does per day, migrating , with 1-5 rag horns.

That is frustrating not seeing bucks but promising to see that many deer per day.

It really was an awesome display of nature that I will never forget.

 

[MrShane]

On a hunt I was on in 2018 I was seeing 150 or more mule deer does per day, migrating , with 1-5 rag horns.

That is frustrating not seeing bucks but promising to see that many deer per day.

It really was an awesome display of nature that I will never forget.

Those big bucks were there, but tucked under a tree all day long and only moving under the cover of darkness.

 

[elkfromabove]

On a hunt I was on in 2018 I was seeing 150 or more mule deer does per day, migrating , with 1-5 rag horns.

That is frustrating not seeing bucks but promising to see that many deer per day.

It really was an awesome display of nature that I will never forget.

I suspect many of those "does" you saw were buck fawns without antlers, but which would have antlers by the time the 2019 hunts came around.

 

[elkfromabove]

I'll CHIME In efa!

There's Never Been An Accurate Deer Count!

We already know what you think, Bess. I'd like to know what those in the shadows think.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

So, we had more deer back in the day and more cattle and sheep on the land scape and less Elk.
Now we have less cattle on the land scape and sheep and less deer but more Elk.
There is over 10,000 deer killed by vehicles, In a 10 year period that is over 100,000.
Makes really hard to grow a herd back with those numbers.

We all know we can grow elk. it's really easy to grow a animal that stays away from the roads and highways. from what I have read less then a 1000 get killed by vehicles each year. Makes it pretty easy to keep elk numbers up.

Yes drought has play a factor. But also remember we have cut the cattle and sheep grazing permits over the years.

Sorry but Buck to doe ratio has nothing at all to do with us growing our herd back at all.

 

[montezumarchery]

35 mph max speed limits everywhere will save the mule deer across the west! How do we get this started?

 

[elkfromabove]

We already know what you think, Bess. I'd like to know what those in the shadows think.

We've had a couple. Any more?
I'll give you my take on this tomorrow evening.

 

[Tikka]

248k hunters in 1988! And we complain now about hunter crowding.

There was a sh!t ton more ground available for hunters, private and public... It was before the sh!t show of CWMU's and high dollar folks paying for private ground access...
Still was pretty crowded, you couldn't do that now there would be hunters on top of hunters....

 

[Airborne]

I'd like to hear from some of you who haven't or who don't usually post. We already know what the regulars think, but they are in a small minority and they think they are speaking for you. Are they?

I don't post too much so here ya go: Like most folks in the 2000's I thought that going to option 2 (smaller units) and increasing the buck to doe ratio would bring back better hunting. Decreasing tags has got to help right--well maybe not.

It was eye opening to me when I learned that 'back in the heyday' of deer hunting the state was running on 5 bucks to 100 does (post rut). I kinda of started to question my thinking after learning this.

My current position on the matter is this: General season units should shoot for a buck to doe ratio of 10-15 bucks per 100 does give or take. If we can maximize hunters afield and stick to that ratio I think it's a good spot to be in. The weather is going to affect the number of deer more than anything. When we have favorable weather and have a good crop of deer we need to be issuing more tags that season because these great years don't last. Make hay when the sun shines.

Regarding LE tags. That is a tough one. I think everyone loves large antlered mule deer and everyone also loves a lack of competition in the field from other hunters. To get that you are going to hamstring your deer population though. There are not enough does on the LE units as there should be but guys have waited a lot of years to have an experience where they see many more bucks and have less competition. I think maybe a compromised approach here. Shoot for 30 bucks per 100 does, maximize hunters to meet this ratio and take advantage of good weather years as well. Be dynamic in issuing tags.

Another thing I would like to see is an increase in more primitive weapons tags as a means to get more hunters afield more regularly. I am talking real primitive weapons, not bullcrap loophole weapons. Utah is growing so flippin fast and there will be a future where the demand will be so great that we are going to have to seriously look at the weapons we use in order for us to hunt with any regularity. It will be a tough pill for many to swallow but I cannot think of another alternative.

There ya go

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Well first thing first.

Look at these numbers.

We all know we can grow elk. So as of right now were just over 80,000 elk in the state and they offer 9,765 cow permits and this is not counting landowner tags.

Now deer on other hand. We have over 330,000 deer in the state from what the data shows. They only offer 554 Doe tags I don't know the number on land owner tags.

So when I look at these numbers this is what I see we defiantly aren't harvesting too many does.

Roughly 98% of the reported animals killed by vehicles were mule deer — a total of 3,611 deer. However, it's estimated that only about half of deer-vehicle collisions are reported, and DWR biologists estimate that around 10,000 deer are actually hit and killed by vehicles in Utah annually.Dec 18, 2023

So you want to build a herd.

We need to find a balance between Elk and deer. I feel the elk is playing a factor in growing deer.

The graph shows when the elk population has went up the deer has went down. Yes It has found a balance finally I don't think will grow that many more deer without fixing the main problem.

The Main factor is this.

We need to Build fences along highways and roads. We are loosing way too many deer along highways and roads.

We also need to keep hammering on predator's.

Pray for moisture

but Its not a buck to doe ratio problem at all.

 

[Vanilla]

I think the expansion of our roads and increased traffic is an enormous problem! And the collisions are only a part of that. In fact, a few years ago I listed it as the #1 thing impacting our deer herds that humans can actually control.

Sure the animals lost have and will continue to hurt and impact herds. No doubt. The cutting off of historical and important migration routes is another giant issue.

So while just building wildlife fences might keep deer off the roadways, which is important, it won’t fix everything that these larger and more populated and faster roads have caused. Under/overpasses need to be a part of many of these fencing projects as well.

Those cost a lot of money.

 

[elkassassin]

I'd Bet The ROADKILL Numbers Are Higher Than That!

I've Seen As High As 23 Hit In One Night Between Duchesne & Heber!

You Think Them Oil Tankers Are Gonna Lift?

Not A Chance!

One Of Many Issues No Doubt!

 

[Tikka]

I'd Bet The ROADKILL Numbers Are Higher Than That!

I've Seen As High As 23 Hit In One Night Between Duchesne & Heber!

You Think Them Oil Tankers Are Gonna Lift?

Not A Chance!

One Of Many Issues No Doubt!

My record roadkill count, driving that stretch of road every Monday morning and Thursday evening for 2 yrs. was 33 deer... It's a slaughter through there with tankers and civilian vehicles...

 

[elkassassin]

How Bout The Deer that Get Hit So Hard They Are VAPORIZED?

 

[Tikka]

How Bout The Deer that Get Hit So Hard They Are VAPORIZED?

I just guessed on some of those, can you imagine them hitting you head on?