any auto workers out there ?"

M

manny15

Guest
just heard how much those line workers make, $28.oo an hour, sheeze, now you know why your big trucks cost so much, toyota pays $18.00 n that's a fair pay, there not needing a bail out! Hmmm...

take a pay cut there boys......
 
after benefits and such non union workers are making $42 an hour. UAW workers are getting $78. No wonder US cars and trucks cost an extra 2k, gotta cover that cost somewhere.
 
50 dollars an hour for benefits for union workers? sounds to me like your doing the right wing twist, although health care is expensive in this country, It would sure be tough to have a home and a family and try to survive on 18 dollars an hour no wonder we have mortage crisis, oh and don't to forget to brush your teeth, the average dentist in the US makes 195 thousand dollars a year, no wonder they charge so much
 
"oh and don't to forget to brush your teeth, the average dentist in the US makes 195 thousand dollars a year, no wonder they charge so much"

Sounds like the dentists aren't getting paid enough. I would hate to go to school for 8 years and stick my hands in someones rotten mouth!
 
your right, dentists should make at least a half million a year, doctors a million, any type CEO should make at least 10 million, and blue collar workers shouldn't make more than 10 dollars an hour, we the blue collar boys would have to rent though because it would be hard to pay a mortage with the interest and all, and whats this BS about not letting kids work and making them go to school? whats wrong with this country anyway
 
manny,

What's wrong with $28 bucks an hour for these guys? Hell, the place where I buy my vehicles isn't paying their guys that wage, they get MORE as they all have been to GMC trade schools and they are sent each year to be up to date on the maintenance and repairs to the vehicles. It is not union either, but the business pays them more to keep them there. They charged the customer $120 hour and the Body Shop is $135 hour.

A very close friend of mine, we have been friends for over 61 years now, on the 20th of this month, he will have been there in the same dealership for 46 years turning wrenches and it has taken a toll on his body but would not trade it for anything else, loves his work. BUT he gets tired of the young guys that come there to work and get the experience and complain all of the time, WHY DO I HAVE TO DO THIS JOB.
Unless he tells me different he is retiring in Feb 2009.

Brian
 
>manny,
>
>What's wrong with $28 bucks an
>hour for these guys?
>Hell, the place where I
>buy my vehicles isn't paying
>their guys that wage, they
>get MORE as they all
>have been to GMC trade
>schools and they are sent
>each year to be up
>to date on the maintenance
>and repairs to the vehicles.
> It is not union
>either, but the business pays
>them more to keep them
>there. They charged the
>customer $120 hour and the
>Body Shop is $135 hour.
>
>
>A very close friend of mine,
>we have been friends for
>over 61 years now, on
>the 20th of this month,
>he will have been there
>in the same dealership for
>46 years turning wrenches and
>it has taken a toll
>on his body but would
>not trade it for anything
>else, loves his work.
>BUT he gets tired of
>the young guys that come
>there to work and get
>the experience and complain all
>of the time, WHY DO
>I HAVE TO DO THIS
>JOB.
>Unless he tells me different he
>is retiring in Feb 2009.
>
>
>Brian
------------

Brian,

Because the big three automakers companies are in the crapper and Toyota and such are not because they pay half that of Chevy pays their employee?s.

Not to mention turning wrenches is different then systematically putting a fender on a car day after day...
 
the numbers youre quoting are for the entire "labor" payout -- meaning $75 bucks equals the average cost, per hour for all workers, however, included in that per hour cost, are the payments to ALL former employees who have a pension and or who receive a check. Last time I went to work for an out fit and they promised me a wage and some kind of benefit, i never would have allowed them to back out. If I hired on for $10 bucks to ride all day long and sleep in a shack for three weeks and boss said he'd give me a bonus at the end of the term, I'd expect him to stick to his agreement, even if it took him a year to pay me. You guys looking to blame the unions and the workers for the auto industry problems are, in my view missing the ethical and moral obligation (not to mention legal) that we as americans strive for. A deal is a deal, is a deal, Regan completely turned on it's head any chance at a capitalistic system working for very long when he built the modern day bankruptsy system. . .

If a company says to me, i'll pay you x, and if you work for me for 25 years i'll give you x, then it's up to them to pay up. Most guys believe a man is only as good as his word. . . If your word aint worth anything, your name aint work anything either.

What is it with patriots that cant understand this simple yet fundamental principle of being american?

Tony
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-08-08 AT 09:47AM (MST)[p]The Unions do bear some of the blame but the companies own the blame.

Why do you think Pelosi and Frank refuse to even think of letting the Big Three go to bankruptcy? It is because in Bankruptcy these companies would be able to shed not only their current union agreements but also alter all those legacy costs, such as pensions and health care. There is no way the dems can afford to blow up the UAW like that.

The problem is that my tax dollars should not be used to subsidize uncompetitive business models. TFinal if your employer went out of business do you still think that they can keep their promise to you? That is where the big three are. Why should we as taxpayers be held hostage by the auto industry? Just so UAW workers can continue to make on average $110,000 a year working on an assembly line?

I don't wish for people to lose their jobs but throwing good money after bad is not good fiscal policy nor will it do anything but prolong the inevitable.

Nemont
 
>The Unions do bear some of
>the blame but the companies
>own the blame.
>
>Why do you think Pelosi and
>Frank refuse to even think
>of letting the Big Three
>go to bankruptcy? It
>is because in Bankruptcy these
>companies would be able to
>shed not only their current
>union agreements but also alter
>all those legacy costs, such
>as pensions and health care.
> There is no way
>the dems can afford to
>blow up the UAW like
>that.
>
>The problem is that my tax
>dollars should not be used
>to subsidize uncompetitive business models.
> TFinal if your employer
>went our of business do
>you still think that they
>can keep their promise to
>you? That is
>where the big three are.
> Why should we as
>taxpayers be held hostage by
>the auto industry? Just
>so UAW workers can continue
>to make on average $110,000
>a year working on an
>assembly line?
>
>I don't wish for people to
>lose their jobs but throwing
>good money after bad is
>not good fiscal policy nor
>will it do anything but
>prolong the inevitable.
>
>Nemont



wow, best argument i heard all month.......
 
What part of an auto worker trying to make the most money they can goes against our capitolist values? keep in mind also that UAW labor only accounts for 10% of the labor cost of a new car ( UAW figures ) so it's unfair to blame them for this whole problem. I'm not a big fan of unions or some of the perks they get but blaming the little guy for everything makes no sense.

It's clear American auto makers need to make some changes and labor will have to be part of those changes, but like all American companies they can't compete with foriegn improts that's not their fault. what about the $1600 in worker health care cost GM has on every vehicle? don't tell me the japs and Koreans have to compete with that. here I go on health care cost again.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-08-08 AT 09:11AM (MST)[p]nemont, that's the political and easy out position, it's one that i cant dissagree with but it's one that has no policy it's one that a politician would make so as to not offend anyone. I know youre level headed, but what should we do?

I say let them fail, that's it, let them fail. I dont like the "patriots" on this site damning the workers.

I say let them fail, I dont like it, but I think buying them through this might just prolong the bleeding and but patient still dies. . . The stock market will go up if the economy makes the proper adjustments, propping everything will NOT build investor confidence because most professional investors know what a rickety system this is and how dishonest the leadership can be. . . no trust. . .


BTW, a line worker, a dishwasher, or a CEO should be able to make whatever they can get someone to pay them -- or do you guys also believe that the government should cap pay?

www.tonybynum.com

"Roadless areas, in general, represent some of the best fish and wildlife habitat on public lands. The bad news is that there is nothing positive about a road where fish and wildlife habitat are concerned -- absolutely nothing." (B&C Professor, Jack Ward Thomas, Fair Chase, Fall 2005, p.10).
 
I don't blame the workers for all the ills of the auto industry. As for what we should do? I say let the companies go bankrupt or out of business. To big to fail is also to big to take responsiblity for your past mistakes, that will only lead to more pain down the road.

Does anyone believe that nobody will build cars in the U.S. if the big three are allowed to fail? We have been having business failures since the begining of time and the way the system is supposed to work is that economic down turns clean the system out from the excess. The less efficient, less competitive, the outdated and the dumb fail. The competent businesses and individuals get rewarded for their competence and thrive to help build up after the down turn. Propping up these companies socializes the risk but it also shows there is not punishment for making bad decisions.

The actions taken by the Fed and the Treasury are bad long term for our economy and will not do anything in the long term to "fix" it. Spending our way out of this hole we are in is like giving a drunk a drink.

Again I don't want anyone to lose their jobs but I also don't want my children and grandchildren and great grandchildren paying for this because we cannot face the problems of our own excesses.
Nemont
 
You're right to a degree and I agree the auto industry as well as most Americans need to tighten their belt but I'm not convinced we're talking about a level playing field here.

If we want most of our domestic auto production subed out overseas to compete with the foriegn imports then we're on the right track, even though I'm a Mopar fan I think chrysler should be allowed to fail for this reason, not only are they primarily a Canadian company but much of their production is in Canada and Mexico. in the end we can't expect American comanies to compete head to head with cheaper cometition unless we want them to seek the cheaper production cost of their overseas competition, even if they stay in business there goes the jobs we were trying to save.

We have no choice but to save at least GM and Ford, if we allow them to go to China for survival the sub companies who would follow would screw our economy beyond repair if it isn't already. if we can find 700 bilion to give banks so people can borrow money to buy crap we should be able to find a few more billion to see to it that it's American made goods they're buying.
 
Okay a Billion here and billion there for businesses that are failing. Where does it end? When I have a bad year should I expect a bailout as well? I am to big to fail according to my wife and kids.

Our economy is screwed up and propping up failing businesses will not do a thing to straighten it out. All this is doing is adding TRILLIONS more debt to our national balance sheet.

Outsourcing or no outsourcing will not matter because these companies cannot compete as currently configured. It would be a mistake to bail them out just to have them back in 18 months asking for more.

The American taxpayers cannot nor should they be the lender of last resort. If we are going to socialize the risks then will be also socialize the profits of companies? That sounds alot like communism, a proven failure.

Nemont
 
>If we want most of
>our domestic auto production subed
>out overseas to compete with
>the foriegn imports then we're
>on the right track,

This where you are wrong....we are building Nissan, Toyota, Honda, and Mercedes right here, with non-union US workers, on US soil. These aren't the imports of your father. Even Ford, GM and Chrysler build a large portion of their vehicle parts in Mexico, Canada, etc.

Scott
Member: RMEF, SCI, and NRA
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-08-08 AT 07:05PM (MST)[p] The jap cars that are built here are made in Japan and assembled here, far from the same thing as being built here. yes domestic makers buy some components overseas but a very small percentage of the vehicle is made outside of the US. some vehicles like the Dodge HD pickups are made in Mexico, that's why I say let Chrysler fall.

This is the problem with this country, as long as any American labor is envolved we accept it as American made, if we're going to play the game that way GM and Ford will be forced to do the same, then you'll see what I mean.

Nemont don't get me wrong I don't agree with the bank bail out or 99% of any of these bailouts. I just don't see how we can bail out the creditors and then let the American employer fail, loaning people money to but forien made crap is sure death to our economy.

Now Obama is talking about his multi billion dollar back to work program, it might work but it should have been that rather than the bank bail out in my opinion, we can't borrow the money to do it all, or should I say we shouldn't borrow the money. now Wall Street gets up each morning and looks to see where and how much money the government is going to gift today, this is no way to run a capitolist economy we're just transfering private debt to government debt.
 
what if we cut the capital gains tax to 10% and the corporate tax to 15% or got rid of the corporate tax altogether since the owners pay taxes on the money any way, so its a double tax? do you think that would make US companies a little more competitive and want to do business in the US and not overseas? I would think a lot of American companies would want to do business here again if we did that. We could manufacture things again and that is what brings true wealth to a country instead of bailing everyone out.

Other than that, I agree with Nemont.
 
you would think that the mortage crisis would have taught some of you a lesson, and by the way thats a heck of a lot more money than the auto makers bailout, so if the auto companys fail its OK? sorry I don't think so. This mess is nothing new it happened at the end of the 19th century, its called unregulated capitalism, its global and much more complicated now but still much the same, we have the past mistakes to learn from but its still going to be a big adjustment for many. A while ago Dude gave a monopoly game analogy and its like we are coming towards the end of the game or its like a poker game where the big players like the health care industry and the energy industry and their speculators have all the money and the rest of us have run out of credit and are unable to stay in the game. This whole thing needed to happen and I guess in that respect we can thank the high fuel prices that brought things to a head
 
> you would think that the
>mortage crisis would have taught
>some of you a lesson,
>and by the way thats
>a heck of a lot
>more money than the auto
>makers bailout, so if the
>auto companys fail its OK?
>sorry I don't think so.
>This mess is nothing new
>it happened at the end
>of the 19th century, its
>called unregulated capitalism, its global
>and much more complicated now
>but still much the same,
>we have the past mistakes
>to learn from but its
>still going to be a
>big adjustment for many. A
>while ago Dude gave a
>monopoly game analogy and its
>like we are coming towards
>the end of the game
>or its like a poker
>game where the big players
>like the health care industry
>and the energy industry and
>their speculators have all the
>money and the rest of
>us have run out of
>credit and are unable to
>stay in the game. This
>whole thing needed to happen
>and I guess in that
>respect we can thank the
>high fuel prices that brought
>things to a head


wow, interesting veiw point.......
 
>wow, interesting veiw point.......

yeah, so now we're going to get corporate/private ownership with government control. thats been tried before and it didn't work.
 
There's lots of blame to lay for the failure of the US auto industry. But make no mistake, it is a failure, and they haven't seen the error of their ways. They want Big Government -- meaning me and you -- to bail them out so they can continue to not face the music. I say BS on that. If they aren't competitive -- and clearly they are not and have not been for decades -- they need to fail. Their assets will be bought up by other more prudent and astute businessmen (maybe Toyota, Honda, Mazda, Hyundai, Kia are in the market for new US facilities???) who will return these tools to profitable utilization. The idea that if the US automakers fail there will be a smoking crater left that used to be these facilities is a hoax put out by the UAW and the auto executives.

Back to the UAW workers. If your skills don't have intrinsic value in the marketplace, you are going down. Why should you be paid $78/hour, $58/hour, $38/hour for what is substantially unskilled labor? The collective bargaining days are over. So long as we are not a protectionist economy, basically your high cost labor is going to be undercut by other workers around the world -- workers in the US south, workers in Japan, workers in Korea, workers in China.

I remember when Ross Perrot's EDS was acquired by GM, and Perrot got a seat on the GM board. Perrot pointed out all the BS that was going on at GM that made them uncompetitive. The GM executives didn't want to have to change and face the music, so they bought Perrot out and sent him packing. That was 20 years ago. Now the uncompetitiveness Perrot outed has come home to roost for Detroit, and we are supposed to bail those horse's a$$es out? Scr3w that!!!

I have zero respect for US auto makers. I've owned enough US vehicles and have watched the schenanigans of the auto executives too long to have any respect for them.
 
I have a bro-inlaw who used to work for Ford, he was the parts manager 20 years, back in the 80's he went to a mandatory Ford motor Co. convention, the speaker said " we don't make money selling cars we make money selling parts"

now that may have been just a bias statement, but i never bought another Ford Since.....
 
Piper,

Where do you get the idea that there was unregulated capitalism? Please explain when this happened. If you are talking about the mortgage crisis, it is actually the opposite. It was added and abetted by the regulators who got their marching orders from Congress and the White House. To blame this crisis on capitalism and demand that all transaction be regulated is just plain dumb. The mortgage market was overheated due to the desire of both sides to get people into their dream homes and help them realize the American dream. Even if that meant loaning money to people who cannot pay it back.

All transaction need to be made more transparent but they do not need to be more regulated. The market would correct itself if given the time. Government should only seek to keep transparency in all dealings including mortgages but any regulation and intervention by government leads to the ever present unintended consquences, ask Barney Frank. Just like all this money being spent to prop up industry is doing nothing to improve our economy or to make it better it is just prolonging the agony.

Again Huntindude's Monopoly story makes a nice story but it way over simplifies the dynamics of market capitalism. It is impossible for one person to get all the property and to own everything. Concentrations of wealth have been a hallmark of our country sinces it's inception go look at some historical data. I am all for transparency, for disclosure, for a level playing field but regulation just to regulate will always lead to ineffectual markets and misalocation of resources. It always has and always will.

In the midst of the greatest capital crisis in our lifetime the idiots in Washington want to increase the tax on capital, they are debasing our currency (which never works), they are buying failed business because they are afraid of the consquences. This correction in the economy needs to take place and rather then throwing money at the problem like Obama wants to do we need to let these businesses fail.

I will make a bet with you right now that the economic situation will be much worse in 4 years then it is today and if we continue the path we are on it will be just like Japan in the 1990's where we will have a "lost decade".

Nemont
 
Manny that's a true statement, and there's nothing wrong with it. I can buy a new powerjoke Ford, Tractor or combine at or near dealer cost, why? because they know if I own their product I'll have to come to them for parts and some service and that's where they make their money. I have no problem with it, better that than hose me on the purchase and parts and sevice.

The bottom line is the American auto industry makes a good product, and we can't afford to lose 3 million good paying jobs anytime and not now for sure. they will be saved, and in time we will be paid back, and the taxes provided by domestic production rather than nip imports will make us far better off.

I'm not a fan of the socialist economics were in today, but this one is a no brainer. by the way for those of you wanting to blame Obama for this hold on, it will be done before Bush leaves office.
 
> The bottom line is the
>American auto industry makes a
>good product, and we can't
>afford to lose 3 million
>good paying jobs anytime and
>not now for sure. they
>will be saved, and in
>time we will be paid
>back, and the taxes provided
>by domestic production rather than
>nip imports will make us
>far better off.

I'm still driving my 1998 Toyota Corolla with 172,000 miles on it. I understand this is not an unusual experience with Toyotas. This kind of longevity has not been my experience with American junk cars. Extremely low maintenance costs on the Toyota. Only failed part I can think of is a failed alternator his past summer (168,000 miles maybe). The part was less than $200. On my 2004 Chevrolet Suburban, by contrast, I have had an instrument cluster fail (bad stepper motor design, I'm told) that cost $550 to replace and a $800 fuel pump (replaced at about 110,000 miles -- my mechanic said I was lucky, those usually need to be replaced at between 80,000 miles and 100,000 miles for those vehicles). We'll see what the damage is for the Suburban when (if) it reaches 172,000 miles. I will say that my previous american vehicles -- Ford Taurus, Ford Aerostar, and Chrysler Town and Country mini-van -- did not make it past 120,000 miles before they more or less went belly up.

"American auto makers make a good product!" (snarky snort) yah, right!
 
I spoke up on the thread on the campfire, I'll do it here. We let them fail and the country will be worse than the great depression. Make no mistake, we can't let them fail. Here is a link to an article on unemployment forecasts. Take note of the impacts of the auto industry.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/28142130
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-09-08 AT 02:39PM (MST)[p]

Why are auto industry jobs more important then other people's jobs? What does it mean that we can't let them fail? Companies have been going out of business since time began and new companies grew up to take their place.

Why, with all the massive new spending from 1933 to 1938,was the unemployement rate in 1938 still at 19%? It actually went up in 1938 rather then down. Five years after the depression began government spending still didn't stimulate the economy enough to produce more jobs. It is because government programs and spending on bad business models prolongs the pain rather then helps shorten it. Bernanke and Paulson are playing fast and loose with not only your but your kids and grandkids financial futures. They are debasing our currency and hastening the day when the U.S. dollar is no longer the worlds reserve currency. If you think times are tough just wait until the Euro or some other currency replaces the dollar and we cannot creat credit at will.

Government cannot correct this economic downturn by printing money. It is bad monetary policy and it leads to a future much worse then it needs to be.

Let them go into bankruptcy and reorganize or go out of busniness. That is the way the system is supposed to work. We would be better off if we let them fail or reorganize.

Where does the bailout end. Why shouldn't I get a bailout then if I have a bad year? How about all the other people losing their jobs in this economy? A government big enough to give you everything is also big enough to take it away.

There should be no such thing as to big to fail. Tax policy, monetary policy and ensuring the transparency in all transactions should be the only things the government gets involved with in our economy. These bailouts are just a massive waste of money that could be going to solve other problems or better yet not borrowed at all.

I don't know where Americans got the idea that our generation was to never feel or suffer from economic hardship.

Nemont
 
Good argument just the wrong one. The economic impact of the big 3 failure would not just touch the manufacturer's but all the vendors, dealers, mechanics, you name it. Every American would be impacted. The crime rate would shoot through the roof, entire cities would be wipped out. Look at cities where plants were the primary employer and have now been closed. You really want 1/2 of America to look like that?

It's called applying emotional inelligence to seperate your feelings when making a fudiciary decision. I hate the fact that my tax dollars are bailing them out, but it's for the greater good.

The politicians opose a bailout because they want their pork. Find me an econimist that opposes it.
 
Does anybody really think that giving these buffoons billions will stop the inevitable??

They are failing for a reason.... You, the American public, don't want their crap.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-09-08 AT 03:42PM (MST)[p]"Crime rates would shoot through the roof, entires cities would be wipped out". Don't believe the hype.

Do you believe that nobody will step into a void left by a failed auto company and build cars here in the U.S.?

A fiduciary is legally obligated to protect the assets in the best interest of those for whom it acts. The government should be acting to protect the taxpayers rather then failing industries.

If the auto industry is so important to the economy then why aren't the banks rushing to finance it's continued operation? Why aren't private equity firms and sovereign wealth funds snapping up this deal while it lasts?

Every American is going to be impacted whether or not the Auto industry is propped up or not. There will be less growth, perhaps more massive unemployment but that is due to the excesses in the system and it has to go through a correction.

 
This is the "smoking crater" picture that the UAW and the auto executives like to paint for us to protect their jobs. It is horse-hokey. The big three won't all fail at the same time. Maybe if GM goes down first this may relieve conditions for Ford and Chrysler? Also, the "smoking crater" narrative neglects the likelyhood that the idled assets would be sold and returned to productivity by others -- Toyota, Honda, Mazda.

Since it is my money, I prefer that it not be spent bailing out these losers. The writing has been on the wall at least for 25 years. These idiots are not going to change their spots. If you want to give money away to these guys, I say you force draconian pay cuts ($20/hour maximum) on the non-management workforce and you fire the whole friggin' executive team -- put 'em on the street. If they don't want to sign on for that deal, than it isn't serious enough to piss away my hard earned money on it.
 
>Does anybody really think that giving
>these buffoons billions will stop
>the inevitable??
>
>They are failing for a reason....
>You, the American public, don't
>want their crap.


You are right Bob. My opinion is let them file chapter 11 and reorganize, let them renegotiate with the union thugs. They will come out stronger leaner, meaner and start building cars they can make money on. A bail out will only prolong the slow bleed out.
 
The American auto industry gave the consumer what they wanted big, powerful' expensive, thats what the business model demanded. they also make a good product I have Dodge truck with 230 thousand miles and its cost me no more than 800 dollars repair total in its lifetime, I owned a Chevy PU that has a gas V6 and has 300 thousand now with very little problems over its life. Nemont - The American health care industry is the most inefficient in the world, and its driving this country down as much as any single thing and have you ever seen the show, Enron the smartest guys in the room? that gives a great example of what unregulated capitalism can do, also contrary to what you think everybody in the treasury department isn't an idiot.
 
There's an editorial in the back of Investors Business Daily today from Lawrence Kudlow about this mess. But what I found interesting is I guess now Avis rental car is requesting a bailout. BlueFire Ethanol wants a bailout, and the trade ass. for equipment lessors wants a bailout. It has to stop now or everyone is going to line up at the government trough.

Not only that but 63% of us are against it. We're actually against all the bailouts except for bailouts to the states and municipal governments and then its about 52.5% in favor.
 
Piper,
There is a HUGE bill on health care that was authored by one of the Senators from my home state. You know what he said about universal government health care: "It is not politically viable", which is democrat speak for, "We aren't willing to fight this battle". So your heroes on the left are not willing to push through Universal care for every American when they control the House, Senate and White House. What does that mean for the U.S. health care system and the problems it faces? I will tell you what it means: Whenever the government helps us in the industry you better hang onto your wallet because they are just putting a bandaid on a cancer patient, adding another layer of expense and continuing to collect money from Docs, hospitals and insurance lobbyist. Your party is no more interested in a solution the mine was. So go preach to someone else because I am involved in the health care and health care financing fight every day.

There is a big difference between the big three and the health care industry.

How many insurance companies, hospitals, clinics, surgicenters, sports medicine clinics, Imaging business etc, etc are there in the U.S. The number of total employees and total dollars in the health care industry makes the big three look like third rate players.


Bernanke and Paulson have mishandled this situation. They have set the stage for hyper inflation, bebased our currency and prolong the downturn. It doesn't matter if everyone else is Einstein, these two are printing money and have increased our debt by $6 TRILLION in a little less then a year. Which one of them is the genius?

Care to take the bet that our economy will be worse in 4 years then it is today? Also I will bet even with a bailout at least one of the big three is going to go bankrupt or return for another handout. Throwing good money after bad is always a poor choice.

Nemont
 
The auto makers need to make some changes, and they're willing. what more do you want from them? if the economy hadn't taken a major dump we wouldn't be having this discussion. as I said according to UAW figures only 10% of a cars labor is by the UAW, the rest is by manufacturers of components. how do you figure going bankrupt will solve high labor cost? even if the UAW took minimum wage American car companies couldn't compete with the nips.

I'll keep and rebuild my F-350's until I die before I'll drive a ricer, you can tojo's rickshaw I don't want it. we've become way to dependant on other nations for everything as it is, I just can't imagine an america without Ford and Chevrolet, this whole debate is unamerican.

If you want to save a buck use some of the money we're giving the banks to save the auto industry, it's a far better investment.
 
HD,
Bankruptcy would allow these companies to enter into new agreements with the UAW. Whether the workers would accept the new terms or not wouldn't matter because the Bankruptcy judge would determine what was best to protect creditors and preserve assets. In addition the big three would be allowed to shed alot of the legacy costs involved with retiree's and their healthcare expenses.

I am not saying that this is what is best for the workers but it may be what is best for the companies.

How is it UnAmerican to allow failed business models to fail. To say that the market demanded these vehicles and now the market has changed is a cop out. Honda change over their production lines in a matter of weeks but the big three take a year to retool. New money into that model won't change anything other then to reward an inability by management to react to a changing market. That is capitalism, using the buggy whip example: a hundred years ago buggy whips were big business but the market changed and either the buggy whip markers adapted or they went out of business.

What is UnAmerican is fleecing taxpayers to nationalize businesses across this country. That is not only UnAmerican it is flat wrong for the country. The big three has not been responsive to the market, unable to anticipate and unable to compete. Again why are those jobs more important then anyone elses? Why should 300 million Americans be held hostage by these car companies?

Nemont
 
>HD,
>Bankruptcy would allow these companies to
>enter into new agreements with
>the UAW. Whether
>the workers would accept the
>new terms or not wouldn't
>matter because the Bankruptcy judge
>would determine what was best
>to protect creditors and preserve
>assets. In addition the
>big three would be allowed
>to shed alot of the
>legacy costs involved with retiree's
>and their healthcare expenses.
>
>I am not saying that this
>is what is best for
>the workers but it may
>be what is best for
>the companies.
>
>How is it UnAmerican to allow
>failed business models to fail.
> To say that the
>market demanded these vehicles and
>now the market has changed
>is a cop out.
>Honda change over their production
>lines in a matter of
>weeks but the big three
>take a year to retool.
> New money into that
>model won't change anything other
>then to reward an inability
>by management to react to
>a changing market. That
>is capitalism, using the buggy
>whip example: a hundred years
>ago buggy whips were big
>business but the market changed
>and either the buggy whip
>markers adapted or they went
>out of business.
>
>What is UnAmerican is fleecing taxpayers
>to nationalize businesses across this
>country. That is not
>only UnAmerican it is flat
>wrong for the country.
>The big three has not
>been responsive to the market,
>unable to anticipate and unable
>to compete. Again why
>are those jobs more important
>then anyone elses? Why
>should 300 million Americans be
>held hostage by these car
>companies?
>
>Nemont

we need to give 'em the finger.

We bailed out Chrysler once before. The MiniVan made them billions with 12 million units sold, and here they are again.
 
My opinion is that this would be a very bad time to have these companys go into bankruptcy, far too much is at stake, it could precipate a downward spiral that would hurt a lot of people far more than the bailout will. the credit crunch has a lot to do with their problems, whether thats a fair excuse or not I don't know but the American auto companys are not the only ones that are in trouble
 
There have been a few airlines file bankruptcy lately and they're still flying. Why should the car companies be any different?

I support the workers but not the union. Kind of like the Dems who say they support the troops but not the mission.

Eel

President Obama and Congress should leave gun rights alone. It's above their pay grade.
 
here's something interesting I read " if you bought 1000 dollars worth of Delta air lines stock 1 year ago you would have 49 dollars left today"
 
I'm like eelgrass, I also support the workers but not their union.

This link shows a video of a new Ford assembly plant in Brazil. How can an auto plant in the USA compete with this??

It can't, let the Big 3 declare bankruptcy and get the union choke hold off of them and maybe they can compete and build plants like this in the USA.

Ford plant in Brazil

Pay attention to the last few words in the film, it says alot!!
 
Overton you know what they say about believing everything you read, actually it read Delta I presumed it was the airlines maybe not though. I did enjoy the Ford plant video and at least it showed some of the nicer slums where the workers live, such a young workforce, no pensions, no high cost of living problems, you can see why we are caught in the middle in this country, not like the European countrys and not like the emerging industrial countrys. I do find it strange that so many of you blame the blue collar workers for the problems. Thats where I find the right wing value system so nausating. cut their wages! get rid of their health care! the way some of you think is amazing
 
1 yr ago delta was selling at $16 a share, thats before the big crash. Today it sells for about a $11 a share. I would say in light of this market it has held up pretty well. Do the math Piper.

Ford makes a Ford Ranger that sells in South America that runs on a 4 cylinder diesel. That truck gets 48 mpg and we in the US are stuck with 18 mpg. That my friends, is a failed US business model!
 
Nobody is stepping up right now because the economy still has no bottom until our government designs a plan to slow the US/Global recessions.

This is not the fault of the big 3 (well maybe chrysler, they never build lasting products), rather it is the fault of the government. When the FAS 157 rule was intraduced in 07 to the mark to market rule it caused the financial institutions to have to take significant write downs. The general public does not understand the difference between a write down and a loss, and therefore began limiting their investing. This opened a door for short sellers, and the fed failed to impliment the up tick rule. As a result the market continued to crash thus furthering the weekening consumer confidence.

Then you have media outlets heavily invested with funds managers that hold large short positions. The media outlets because largely unregulated continue to run with gloom and doom instead of unbiased news because it suits there interest (this was very evident with Washington Mutual when the fed began discussing a possible RTC, WaMu was upgraded by the S&P and Goldman, but CNBC only published 1 downgrade from a foreign agency)

The government has failed to regulate in any way OPEC, which drove prices over 4 dollars a gallon by manipulating inventory. They have failed to aggresively work towards alternative fuels, or domestic drilling, and also failed to free up credit lines so there is money to lend in the middle scorebands.

So what you end up with is a crisis of confidence and discretionary spending goes out the window. GM and Ford have long had a model that relied on their truck lines. The fuel prices all but demolished those sales. Combine that with consumer confidence, and sales stopped.

Sales also stopped for foreign cars. Toyota sales were down 36% for Novemeber.

As far as crime rates, just look at Lansing, or Buffalo. As industry has receeded in those areas, the crime rates doubled. Buffalo used to be the number 1 destination in America, now it's the armpit of America.
 
The Ford Ranger from South America probably wouldn't be allowed in because of safety and emission regs. I just don't get kicking the little guys (workers) over this mess when you have AIG, Lehmen Bros, Citigroup, Merryl Lynch, Freddie and Fannie all mismanaged with no union labor adding up to 10 or 20 times more money in bailouts. CNN had a story on Freddie and Fannie last night on how management didn't see this coming but did fire the people that were saying there was problems coming. Citigroup pays 450milion to hang a sign on the new Mets stadium. Franklin Raines makes more than 50 million to run Freddie into the ground. AIG just got 150 billion (YEA billion) and might need 10 more and goes on having company meetings at luxury resorts. Nobody is held accountable. Nobody gets fired. Nobody saw it coming. When everyone in the country is working for 15 to 18 $ per hour with minimal benefits then the suits will be able to make better decisions. Yea Right!
 
Boomhand,

Why punish the taxpayers who had no say so in what the Big Three did up to this point? Why put public funds on the line if these are viable businesses? Why not tell them to seek private financing?

I don't want everyone to lose their jobs but that is just the reality of this situation. There is no guarantee this money will even help long term to keep these companies in business.

Nemont
 
First off short selling is perfectly legal and allows an important function of being able to hedge one's investments. There is as much money to be made on the short side of the market as there is on the long side. Why should there be an uptick rule? How come there is a downtick rule? Short selling is a tool used to help the market find it's true value.

Limiting short selling also limits investors from having the ability to take advantage of a declining market.

Mark to market is not the cause of this turmoil. It is bad assets inside of the Mortgage Back Securities. If everyone has to mark to market that means that there is a level playing field and that the smoke and mirrors have been removed in alot of cases. It just proved the many of these finacial instutions were cooking the books. The instutional investors are sophicated enough to know the difference between a write down and a loss. The big investors quit investing because they didn't know whether or not what they were buying was made up of good mortgages or bad mortgages because the industry packaged up these mortgages and didn't know whether the mortgages was performing or not.

No amount of government regulation can "fix" the market. Capital has it's own laws just like the laws of nature. Excesses alwasy lead to bubbles, bubbles burst and economic pain ensues. Governments can attempt to reduce this pain but they almost always do more harm then good.

How does our government regulate OPEC? We had to go, hat in hand, to Saudi Arabia and beg them to pump more oil. OPEC is largely made up of governments hostile to the U.S. and I doubt us regulating them would have any affect on their operations.

Toyota sales are down but they aren't asking for a bailout nor is Honda which just opened a brand new $500 million plant here in the U.S.

When was the last time Buffalo NY was the #1 destination in the U.S.?

Explain why your and my tax dollars need to be spent on this bail out? What will you say if they come back in 6, 12 or 18 months asking for more? It appears the bailout is a done deal, now what, how long do we wait to see results?

Nemont
 
they can make them pass emissions, they just don't want to!! VW recently released a diesel that won the Green car of the yr award, it passes emissions in all 50 states. Corning has developed a tailpipe filter that removes all particulates that makes any diesel emissions legal in all 50 states. Safety, well build the thing like you do here so it is safe. If it gets 40 mpg because of added weight your still way ahead. I ain't buying they aren't doing it because they can't,,,they just don't want to. If it takes bankruptcy for them to pull their heads out, so be it. LET THEM FAIL!!
 
Nemont,

I actually think we agree in principle on many of these issues. I am not saying short selling is bad or illegal, I am saying it needs tighter controls since it allows for maket manipulation. I have both long and short positions in the financial sector. Unfortunately I am not a large enough investor to run the squeeze plays that manipulate the maket. Fact be fact, short positions can deflate the market, not just normalize it.

Mark to market is a good rule, FAS 157 is not. Mark to Market originally allowed for optimistic valuation of your portfolio, Fas 157 forces a pesimistic valuation. If they removed olympic means the rule would be more fair and allow for proper valuation.

As far as regulation, when FAS 157 came out the Government should have instantly started an RTC and it would have prevented this entire mess. Problem is the fed is reactive instead of proactive.

As far as Toyota or Honda are concerned, if we stay headed in the same direction they will have their hand out. Hopefully it does not come to that.

Niagra Falls kept Buffalo as the number 1 destination in America for a long time. Then the city went to heck.

The tax dollars need to be spent so that these companies can weather the downturn. They are asking for a loan, not free money.

We may just have to agree to disagree. At the end of the day the government will do whatever it wants anyway. The topic does make for a fun debate though.
 
Fair enough. I will agree to disagree or disagree to agree. Or whatever.

I don't want to lose Ford or GM or Chrysler for that matter but I do want our government to practice sound money principles. I think the dollar is on it's way to a major demise and Bernanke and Paulson are hastening that day.

Our debt is attractive to foreigners still because there is blood in the streets and even with all our problems we are still seen as a safer haven then other places. When that turns and people start reacting with clear thoughts rather then fear the purchasers of our debt will see what a wreck the Fed's balance sheet is.

Nemont
 
everyone I talk to would buy one of those ranger pickups, me included, but its wrong to blame the blue collar workers for the fact that ford won't sell them on the US market, from what I understand its not an emission problem either, its all about the profit margin
 
We had no say in throwing 20 times more money at the companies I mentioned to be managed by the same people who screwed it up to begin with and none of the scrutiny going on with the big 3. This thread started with the assumption that a 10 an hour in pay is the reason for the problems but my point is poor leadership at all these companies and the government overseers is the cause of the whole crisis. Trying to blame the workers is pointless.
 
$10 an hour. were did you see that? The opening thread said 28 compared to 18. Its actually 70 UWA compared to 48 for the foreign companies. Consider the fact that there are 7000 workers on this employee program that pays them 95% of their pay because they were layed off forever if they wish. Now that is the pinnacle of stupidity and shows you just how dumb the management of these companies really is. With a bankruptcy these guys are gone along with their $20 million a yr salaries.
 
I don't think I'm getting through, if 10% of the labor involved in producing an american made vehicle is UAW labor how can a new contract with them change everything? and do you really think if those thousands of pensions and health care binefits they were promised get axed the tax payer is going to walk away clean? fat chance we'll get taged for it anyway why not help the big 3 pay it themselves.

This is why we need a new health care system, you don't want to pay the cost of a health plan in your taxes and you don't want to pay for employers to take care of it in the cost of american made goods either. the only other choice is to have Hop Sing and the other nips build everything for us and ship it in with this stroke of genius, I hope Obama is smart enough to see where that will take us or we're ultra screwed.
 
3blade, your the first one that has mentioned the grease balls and their 20 million dollar salaries, be careful you will be accused of inciting class warfare
 
This whole thread is about a 28$ guy having rocks thrown at him by a 18$ guy (10$ difference 3 Blade) which Manny has decided what all working men should earn. I guess you could call it class warfare when the guys at the bottom of the heap are doing that. I'm not saying the workers don't need to take major cuts in their contract for the taxpayers but just remember CEO pay has gone up hundreds of times more than workers pay in this country and they are the ones who got us here.
 
hows this for a novel concept. Lets have the government set everyones salary for everything across the board, both foreign companies and US. lets say bottom can only be 10% of the top. That might work huh although i doubt it in this case because overall people don't want to buy their junk.
 
I really don't care if the line workers make $100 an hour and the CEO's are paid with chickens and meat pies, the fact is that this bailout is no guarantee of any companies survival, no guarantee that they won't be back asking for more. The problem is that the Big three are based upon an uncompetitive business model. The UAW states that labor is only 10% of the cost of a vehicle. What they leave out is that benefits and pensions, not only for current but former employee, are left out of that number.

The legacy costs for GM in producing a vehicle is higher then the cost of steel in the that vehicle. That makes the vehicle's uncompetitive in alot of instances. Now the working man is going to get squeezed, I don't blame them for the deal they have but if they want to remain working for one of the Big Three they are going to have to give back alot of what they won over the years. The CEO's are going to give up alot of their perks as well. All of this should come about without a guaranteed loan using Taxpayer money to subsidize these companies.

I find it interesting that people think that the production line workers are noble for swinging the best deal they can but the CEO's are "Slimeballs" for doing the same.

Nemont
 
I really don't care if the UAW workers turn to crap and the pigs eat them, but I do want what they build and I want a US economy back.

If we let the big 3 go broke and crush the unions do you really think we the tax payer will let them go without health care and an income? we'll have a jillion past and present UAW workers and all the other component maker workers on welfare and public health care. this is why we need an economy not based on retailing imported goods, it's a no brainer the US auto industry must and will be saved.
 
Why should a failing business be given a bailout? Does the UAW leadership have any ownership in this thing or is just the evil corporations that did this?

What is cheaper today will end up being way more expensive in the future.

Nemont
 
The unions, not just the UAW but all the unions with a hand in the auto industry are to blame as is the leadership of the companies. in my opinion the American consumer is part to blame as well, many ricer fans wouldn't buy an American car if it was as good, the American car has to be better or they'll have nothing to do with them.

The bottom line is when you buy American you help your neighbor and in doing so you help yourself, remember how economics work? if American made goods were crap I could understand but they're not, I drive and use ONLY american made vehicles and I get where I'm going everytime and I'm far from broke on repairs.

Why is it we can find 700 billion to throw at ignorant bankers but we can't find 35 billion to keep 3 milion american workers employed and a foundation in our manufacturing ability in business? am I the only one who thinks america needs to be something other than a consumer nation borrowing the money from the nips so we can buy their crap? if this is the attitude of this nation we deserve to go down the tube, we're so lazy we don't even want to see other people work if the nips can do it for us.

Go buy you're Hop Sing crap, I'm going to buy another american made powerjoke for a right off this fall and I hope I back over a jap on the way out of the dealership.
 
HD,

Economics has nothing to do with helping your neighbor. Economic on at least the Micro level is almost exclusively about helping yourself, on the Macro level it is about efficient allocation of resources.

The banks got their bribery payment because they scared the American leadership and the American people that the entire world's financial system would collapse.

If you want to see a complete demise of the U.S. Auto industry then go ahead and blame consumers. When the companies further alienate the American consumer then they will have driven the fianl nail in their coffin for good. Consumers go to where they get the most value for their money, usually regardless of the long term consquences of their consumption. If the American Auto industry was the end all and be all of car manufacturing then they wouldn't be in the position they are in.

I think you last sentence shows the attitude that makes alot of Americans search out the better deals they can get for quality vehicles from Asia. Most American don't have the luxury of writing off their vehicles like you do. You are not an average American and do not understand how a great deal on a foreign made vehicle can beat our a good deal on an American made vehicle.

Nemont
 
If all these workers tied to automobile manufacturing take large pay cuts will that lead to more home forclosures? will that lead to less consumer spending and less demand for products? from 28 dollars per hour to 18 per hour for UAW workers is a substantial cut and thats what their talking about. I wonder how much money the government takes out of peoples pockets to bolster the profits of pharmaceutical companys through laws that keep less expensive foreign drugs from consumers, there are many examples of how the powerful lobbys from big money interest groups keep americans from being competitive on the global market. there a lot of things that need changing on the top end of the scale not just the bottom
 
Maybe you're right, I've never owned a rickshaw and I have no desire to. maybe it's misguided patriotism but I'll go to my grave buying american first. my grain , flats and stock trailers all have " Take Pride In America " flaps in them and that's the way I feel, I have no problem what so ever with our domestic autos or about anything else this nation produces. I'll get off my soap box now.


When it comes to economics I don't agree with your compete or die anology, first off we don't have a level playing field and unless we want to become a 3rd world nation we're not going to. second if we decide we can imoprt everything cheaper and better than we can do it ourselves what is your long term economic plan? nations like Japan put a negative stigma on buying imported products, and label EVERTHING with nation of origin labels , something we won't do. they also give HUGE subsidies to domestic producers funded by import duties on imported products, in this country we prefer imports rejoice in the failure of our own manufacturers and producers. even if national pride doesn't play into your buying choices how in the world does a nation's economy function under these conditions? you want a world economy but you don't want your standard of living to come down to the level of your competition.

Nemont I respect your opinions you're a level headed guy, I just don't think you have a real grasp for the situation american companies face with unregulated competition or the consecquences of destroyed american industry. the auto industry would be just the tip of the ice berg in a long list of failed businesses leading to a total meltdown of our already screwed over economy. besides, we're 700 billion bucks too far down the path to socialism right now to pretend letting our industry fall on it's face will make us capitolist. ok now I'm off my soap box.
 
Answers

Yes

Yes

So what they are over paid anyway

The government takes way too much tax as it is now

Drug Companies pay taxes at some point

Buy American Drugs

Correct Piper we need to lower wages to be competitive in the world market so we should start with you
 
I can't go no lower, I'm already going in the hole, thinking about setting up a greenhouse but I'm worried about the power bill
 
a few of us were talking about this issue at work the other day. One of the guys has a friend that works at the GM parts plant in Reno. That guy told him that everyone in the plant works real slow all week until they get within a couple days of a deadline. Management then realizes they are behind schedule to get out the parts they need to get out by that deadline so they authorize overtime. Naturally a fair bunch of the workers come in an work like hell for 2 days on the weekend to get caught up. This happens week after week after week. Its a game and a way for the employees to screw GM out of overtime, they do it on purpose. With employees with that kind of attitude they need to let them fail so they can get out from under the UAW contracts, plain and simple. Besides theres 300 million people in the US, 3 million more losing their jobs is just a drop in the bucket. So far so good, the bill has failed in the Senate and GM is has been consulting lawyers about bankruptcy this week. File baby file!

By the way, GGP, a huge commercial real estate company is expected to file for bankruptcy today. Now we'll see the value of commercial real estate drop like a rock over the next 3 months as company after company fails that are in this business. You can take that to your broker.
 
Piper

You are a good sport. And I was just kidding.
Next year make sure you have plenty of elk meat for the winter and by 2010 we will be living in Shangri-La.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-08 AT 09:28AM (MST)[p]Like UAW workers are the only ones who know how to screw the pooch?

So the retired GM employees will get hosed out of their retirement and their health insurance and that's a good thing? that's either a real jeolous attitude or a real ignorant one.

File baby file, then come for a hand out for your past and present employees rather than a loan to try to survive. if you think the tax payer will see no effect on 3 million high wage jobs vanishing you haven't thought very hard about it. just retrain them to wash and wax nip imports for minimum wage right? that's what we're coming to.
 
HD,

First off I only own American made vehicles because my Grandfather would rise from his grave and smite me if I bought a Japanese made anything. He blamed them for not only the burns over 65% of his body when his ship was Kamikazed off the coast of Okinawa, but also for stealing 4 years of his life.

If the big three are not on a level playing field and you state they won't be then explain the sense of throwing money at Corporations that are at a competitive disadvantage. Especially at a disadvantage the Politicians do not want to correct? That is a nonsensical arguement.

Like it or not we are in a global economy, that is just a fact. We cannot withdraw from it because we are dependent upon foreign money to finance our lifestyle. The living standard in America is a result of Trillions of dollars of money borrowed foreigner, the worlds largest debtor nation. Without Chinese or Japanese or South Korean money our living standard would have been reduced long ago. That is also just a fact.

Explain how we tell the world that we don't want their stuff but please keep buying our debt. Explain how we throw up protectionist barriers and tariffs and still expect that we can maintain the same standard of living. Trade is the lifeblood of a modern economy, even Bill Clinton understood that.

So if the only way for American car companies is to make imports too expensive to buy isn't that just subsidizing the U.S. auot industry at the expense of the American consumer? So 300 million Americans should pay more and have less choice in order to save UAW workers jobs? Please explain what economic model that is consider good business under?


You may not think I have a grasp but I think I understand pretty well what is happening out there. I read extensively about the economy and have formed my opinions over time. I believe that Washington has no grasp of what it is going to actually take in order to "fix" the economy. First if we want to bail out the American auto industry then we should be prepared to be the lender of last resort for everyone else who are not able to adapt and hit hard times. What other industries are also hurting?

Nobody can answer why auto workers jobs are more important then everyone else jobs. Do you believe that nobody will be manufacturing autos in the U.S. if these companies shut down? I don't.

Piper,

Explain how Big Money interests keep America from being competitive. Also why are you all for importing cheaper drugs but not for importing other cheaper goods? Isn't making foreign cars more expensive the same thing as making foreign drugs more expensive but in one case that would be good and the other case it would be bad. Kind of an inconsistent way of looking at things IMO.

Nemont
 
big money interests make people have a higher cost of living and therefore they have to make more money to maintain a decent standard of living, big money interests lobby congress to pass laws that profit themselves, one example, say I went hunting with several friends and we drank water out of the same spring a week later we all have the quick step and its bad, my friend calls and says he went to the doctor and took samples and he has gardia he then gets a prescription, I then know what I have so in most countrys I would go to the pharmacist and get the treatment, not in the good old US I have to make an appointment then go to the clinic that taxpayers just paid millions to build , fill out papers, pay 150 dollars, then tell the doctor what I need, then I can go to the pharmacy. who cares its just time and money right? oh and the drugs neither get you high nor are they antibiotics. Where did I say we shouldn't allow foreign vehicles or make them more expensive? its congress thats inconsistant, why do they protect big pharma, why are those jobs so much more important than everyone elses job?
 
The playing field isn't level for american companies, just like it isn't level for me trying to compete with Mexican and Chinese producers paying $1 a day labor and getting to use DDT and cheap high lead fertilizer. how do you come to the conclusion we can compete head to head with that?

Nobody wants to buy a car fromn a bankrupt company, letting them go broke is an insane plan and it's not going to happen. we can argue about this until the cows come home and in the end we can't and won't allow our domestic industrial industry to fail, I think your grasp is weak on this situation.

If a free world economy is what you want prepare to live like a 3rd world peasant, because we're broke and if we're too stupid and lazy to produce for our own needs we're screwed. if Hop Sing will work for $30 a month then so will you, if dumping toxic waste into the Yang See is waste disposal then the same must go for the Yellowstone because the playing field must be level, if this is what you want your grasp is good.
 
> If a free world economy
>is what you want prepare
>to live like a 3rd
>world peasant, because we're broke
>and if we're too stupid
>and lazy to produce for
>our own needs we're screwed.
>if Hop Sing will work
>for $30 a month then
>so will you, if dumping
>toxic waste into the Yang
>See is waste disposal then
>the same must go for
>the Yellowstone because the playing
>field must be level, if
>this is what you want
>your grasp is good.

HD, question. Since we're broke, how do you think we should pay for all this stuff? print more and more money until we end up like Zimbabwe or what?
 
What do you think we're doing? look at the national debt and the trade deficet.

The trade deficit is bnad enough as it is but if we want to sit on our butts and import everything we have no hope of ever having an economy again. so we spend a few bucks to keep 3 million good paying american jobs, over the years how much taxes have these workers and their companies paid? how much taxes will the imports who replace them pay? have you ever heard the word " investment" this is what we're talking about, keeping american manufactuuring alive will pay back many times in the long run.

In times of war and crisis who builds military equipment? I suppose you want to be dependant od Honda and Hop Sing for that too? what made this country great is our natural resources and our industrial capibility , our natural resources aren't what they used to be and people like you want to import everything we can save one red cent on. it seems our national pride is gone as well, when I buy american that money stays here and makes the rounds providing jobs and tax revenue, you buy Hop Sing's crap and he gets another set of chop sticks, maybe he'll loan you back part of it so you can buy more crap, that adds to the trade deficet and national debt.

If there ever was a time to buy american it's in times like this, but you guys are getting a kick out of some of our most important companies in danger of failing, I still say this is short sighted and unamerican. ask yourself what the greatest generation would have done right now? laugh at our companies failure and buy jap crap? yeah I bet, we have no national pride or loyalty anymore.
 
Its amazing isn't it, I bet whats happening is the unions and and union workers are the new whipping boys for the Limbaugh crowd
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-08 AT 02:37PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-08 AT 02:26?PM (MST)

I never ever listen to Limbaugh!!

I do know what the greatest generation, our founding fathers would do. They would restore the original intent of the constitution and you would witness a dismantling of the federal government back to what the constitution says it can and cannot do. States rights would be restored.

There would not have been any bailouts for anyone. The Federal Reserve System would be gone. All types of welfare would be history. Every military base in the world would be closed and all our troops would come home. The UN would be kicked outta the country. The income tax and the 17th amendments would be repealed. Basically, they would completely dismantle your blessed socialist government. There'd be so many changes it would make your head spin!
 
HD,

So I am now UnAmerican. I guess I will send my combat patch back to Uncle Sam because I dare suggest that letting companies fail.

I find it highly disappointing that you of all people would throw out the UnAmerican label ever. I remember you having such a huge problem with people who questioned your patriotism for not supporting the Iraq war.

If you believe propping up these companies is such a great idea then why would we ever let anyone fail? If it is morally right to rescue these guys then why isn't it also morally right to rescue everyone else.

Bailout generally don't work, they reward poor leadership in the companies. If you believe that 3 million jobs would disappear and no jobs would be created in their place then you really don't believe in America either. Companies have been going out of business since the begining of our country. What made us a great economy is that we allowed the creative destruction of capitalism to have a chance to allocate resources.

I know neither you nor Piper believe in the theory of capitalism or that it works but it does. At the end of the day it will not matter whether or not we extend taxpayer money to the car companies, we are going to lose one or more of them no matter how much money is pumped into them. Now you will have wait for the guy you all dislike so much, GWB, to dole out some cash that was already appropriated from the $700 billion that was earmarked for Wall Street. I doubt either of you will like him any better.

Signed
An UnAmerican Taxpayer, combat veteran and capitalist

Nemont
 
Don't take it so personal, I'm speaking of all who would buy an imported product than a domestic one for no good reason. if that's you then go ahead and take it personal.

As for loaning the auto makers the money to survive until they can do it on their own that's not excatly what I would call a bail out. the big 3 were giving us what we wanted, and I still want, big gas hogs. when fuel prices tripled they were left out in the rain, then the economy tanked and nobody is buying anything. this is not a clear matter of incompetence it's a matter of poor planing and bad luck. why would you rather see them fail than give them a chance? this is a petty investment considering whats at stake, 3 million jobs and huge tax revenues. yes we are in a world economy but that doesn't mean you cut your own throat to play, this is why I like Ron Paul, take care of your own first.

Bush will give them the money to survive until Obama comes up with a longer term plan, I never said Bush was always wrong and this is one of those few exceptions. we're already a socialist nation for all practical purposes, I'm not real happy with that myself but there is no reason to destroy our economy any more to prove a point which will change nothing.
 
How else is one supposed to take it other then personal, why did you take it personal when your patriotism was questioned about the Iraq war? I want what is best for America, I don't "want" these companies to fail. However it is my belief that the Government is a terrible allocator of resources, they do very little well when it comes to making market decisions. Look at the politicians and how the left demands that all management takes a pay cut. What do any of them know about running an auto company, yet they get to decide how much someone should make? That is no way to run and economy. This money will do nothing but prolong the inevitable demise of one or more of these companies.

Giving them a loan because they are unable to secure credit on the private market is indeed a bailout. Don't you think there is enough equity out there that if these companies had some prospect of suceeding that private money would be chasing those returns.

GM and Chrysler stated that $15 billion will only get them to March 2009, So in March they will be back asking for more. How many people are going to lose their jobs regardless if these companies get this money or not? 30 plants are going to close in the first quarter of 2009 alone. Dealerships are going to go out of business because they either won't be able to sell vehicles or will be unable to get vehicles. Yet the Union jobs is the only anyone cares about, nobody cares about the small business guy who will have pay more in taxes, compete with his own government to get ahead and have reduced standard of living because he is giving money to people who are making more then he is.

I love this country and want what is best for it, I served my time and have been a productive citizen my entire life. I spend less then I make, I take on debt, I have kept my powder dry so to speak. Why should my business have to pay more taxes just because politicians in Washington are giving away the keys to the kingdom?

An UnAmerican capitalist
Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-08 AT 10:33PM (MST)[p]It's not going to cost you a dime, you don't think we're going to pay the national debt off anyway do you? at first I thought we would and should but nobody seems to care so why should I. morons like Rush say it will take care of itself, meaning your kids I guess.

So since we're just putting it on the credit card anyway why not keep these companies alive? if we can spare 700 billion for a bank bail out so what, I think these auto producers have a better chance of returning money on our investment, if not what the hell this is less money per montyh than we're blowing in Iraq.

If I said or indicated you were unamerican I apologize, sometimes I get carried away. buying American was beat into me from birth by my dad who was a vet of the Pacific campaign, I see definite logic in it but I shouldn't demand the same of others. know you want what's best for your country just as I do we just disagree on what that is.

I'm willing to bet they will get the money they need, GM and Ford will survive, Chrysler I'm not sure will and I'm not sure we should try. you might be correct in your assessment of the situation, but even if I'm wrong I think we as a nation correct to try.
 
"The auto bailout is going to happen at some point. It's either going to happen with the Bush administration tapping the TARP money or it's going to happen when the Obama crowd is inaugurated. It's going to happen."

"It's not an auto bailout. It's a union bailout, and the union bailout is going to happen."

Moron Rush
 
>And the banker bailout is better
>because?

The banker bailout is better because of the Golden Rule! That rule is, "he who controls the gold makes the rules". I'm kidding but, they control the purse and lend us their money at interest so we can work for them as slaves our entire life, and right now it looks like our children and their children will do the same.

Because not enough of us seems to get it enough to rise up and get rid of them! The present uncontrolled rate of printing worthless fiat currency will result in higher taxes and a lower standard of living for all. Those taxes will either be direct or you'll see it in the form of inflation and the erosion of your buying power or both. We're on our way to becoming a European style country with 3 or 4 generations living in the same house to make ends meet. Its going to be done on purpose because we consume 25% of the worlds resources and it can't continue.

Whats this got to do with the auto bailout? Nothing, only that much more money is just another nail in our own coffin.
 
So banks loan us money to buy foreign made goods and this helps the economy how?

Am I off base to think loaning money to buy american goods such as cars would provide more american jobs and tax revenue? so am I wrong to think if we have no domestic made goods this might be a problem? so you see no holes in an economy based borrowing money from Hop Sing to loan to americans so they can buy Hop Sing's crap? I need some economic learnaments or more wiskey I guess to follow this logic.
 
How about the big 3 go ##### up and another new American company sees an opportunity and builds a better car cheaper, the way the free market is supposed to work? The UAW can hang their logo at the Smithonian.

Eel

President Obama and Congress should leave gun rights alone. It's above their pay grade.
 
Once again if only 10% of the labor is UAW no concession made by them will fix this by itself.

What about the fact the US is the only nation that puts the total employee health care cost on the employer? at $1600 a per vehicle GM would love to cut that out. why don't we all do our part? everyone with employer paid health insurance tell your boss you want to do your part to make us more competitive on the world market by letting him cancel your health insurance. seems most of you don't want public funded health care, and you don't want to pay it when you buy US made goods if its passed on in the price so I must asume you want the UAW employee to pay it. so let's all pay 100% of our own premiums and level this thing out, is what's good for the goose good for the gander or not?

Like I said the playing field is not level and we should make it so before we blame american companies.
 
some don't seem to get the fact that we have such a high cost of living in the US that it makes us uncompetitive, they think giving minimum wage to the auto builders will do the trick, another thing the ratio of pay from CEOs to the average worker is far more than any other country, ten times more than similar European companys. The right wing never seems to get it, thats why we have such a mess right now. At least Obama seems to get it.
 
Piper,

You are right, this is entirely the result of right wing politics, The pure as the driven snow democrats are going to flip a switch and all will be right. Let's ignore sound monetary policy, sound economics and just print money until we do end up as a pauper nation.

I guess since I am such a terrible American I will be happy to see the democrats own this entire thing in Jan. They will be 100% in control. Remember only the guy sitting in the oval office is responsible for everything good or bad from day one, that is the rules set by the democrats.

Where is Obama going to get all this money to do everything he promised? Borrowing it from China is bad whether you are a democrat or a republican.

Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-08 AT 03:11PM (MST)[p]If we've decided to buy everything from China whats wrong with borrowing the money from China? not everybody has a gigantic stash of cash so if they don't have a job sit on your butt and borrow & spend will be our new economic policy.

If we can't keep the jobs we have left and bring some back home we'll be a 3rd world nation once our credit runs out. I'm not sure Obama or anyone else can fix it but saving what jobs we have left is the first step, I'm still trying to figure out where the debate is on this subject.

I should ad a little bit of what Warren Buffett had to say on the subject not that he knows near as much about these things as our resident experts, just more than me I guess. he says bankruptsy is a poor solution, he says the president , that being Bush, should sit down with the CEO's and make a deal. a deal that requires everyone to participate, the unions, the taxpayer and even the CEO's would put some skin in the game. this is the thinking I agree with, don't sit on your thumbs and watch them fail but cut a deal to help them help themselves. I hope Bush gets it done, if he doesn't I'm confident Obama will along with the help of people like Buffett. some of you won't get the joy of seeing union members on public health care and welfare but they will feel some pain, it's all good.
 
thats how many of the big players in this economy got so rich, they moved the manufacturing base over to China and other places where the cost of living is cheap and the standard of living is low. I believe Obama is correct when he says we need to make sure the economy doesn't completely collapse and then we need to address the structural problems, Im sure thats a lot easer said than done and the government can only do so much. As far as the blue collar workers go, they are going to have to realize a cut in their standard of living no doubt but I don't even think thats going to work if a bunch of others don't slow down on their greedfest
 
>Where is Obama going to get all this money to do everything he >promised? Borrowing it from China is bad whether you are a >democrat or a republican.
>
>Nemont

Why they're going to print it out of thin air Nemont. You and I know that, we also understand the results that is going to bring. Some on here though don't and never will, even after they see the results. Its going to be a long 4 yrs.

cheers
 
You do know Bush doubled the national debt right? is money Obama might spend to avoid a depression any different? Obama will have to spend money we don't have to get things moving we all know that, lets just hope if it works he shows more self control than the conservatives did.

I'm not sure tax and spend is worse than don't tax but spend extra in the long term.
 
I think the auto makers should be able to pay their workers and their management anything they want. Form a union and get all the monetary and working conditions the company is willing to conceed. Pay their CEOs whatever they want. But I think they should also have to live or die with that decision.

I don't think it's fair to ask an $18 per hour employee to bail out a $28 per hour employee. There are about 700,000 former UAW workers drawing benefits, and they are no longer producing anything. How could any private company compete with that burden? But then they made the deal. I just think they should now live with it and not place it on my back.

I work for an individual who owns 6 sawmills from California to Alabama. We are not union. He pays a good wage. The deal is you come to work and do your assigned job and he pays you so much an hour. We have a fair health plan that I contribute $300 a month to. He owns no timber and buys logs on the open market. He is a very hands on employer, he has no managers, and I speak to him almost on a daily basis when he is in town. I've been there 26 years. When I retire I'm on my own. We have no pension other than a 401K. He must be doing something right because in todays economy all of his sawmills are open for business. Our mill just went to 9 hour days to fill our lumber orders.

You can have all the benefits in the world, but what good are they if your job goes away because of it?

I've kept my financial nose clean, got my house paid off and have ZERO debt. And I'm proud of it. My wife doesn't work, never has.

While I go to work every day, I see other union workers and government workers get all these paid holidays, sick leave, near 100% medical, blah, blah, blah. And that's fine. Now they can't compete and they want me to pick up their slack? Sorry, they get no sympathy from me.

Eel
 

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