any auto workers out there ?"

I'm not saying the auto makers deserve special treatment I'm saying they need it. if your mill goes broke big deal , outside your local community nobody will notice. if I go broke and my crops don't get to market will anyone starve? I'd like to think so but fat chance. pull 3 million jobs down and I think it's fair to say it would hit the radar screen, this major economics here.

I don't think anyone wants to just flip cash at the auto makers, we should strive for a deal to help them help themselves which helps all of us in the end. giving up on companies this important as a first option is irresponsible, if after negotioations no reasonable deal can be cut then let the chips fall. it is possible a plan will be made that in the end fails, so what, anyone who's ever been in business knows there is no sure thing just good bets.
 
Have you ever thought if the unions fail and wages drop yours will also? if a UAW worker gets minimum wag or less to compete with imports and sub companies move overseas to compete with import components you really think your wage is going to hold? manufacturing companies still here will use this as a chance to slash wages or move themselves if need be, they'll have no choice if they want to compete on the world market you love so much. the only way to compete with 3rd world counties is to become one, I'm shocked that this is so hard to understand for some people.

The refreshing part of this is once again you're not going to get what you want and the nation will be better off for it. the automakers will get some form of plan to save themselves with government assistance. I have no doubt it is the correct thing to do, my only concern is that it's done correctly and we may not know that for some time.
 
Eel, Best i've heard in a long time!! Very well said!

Dude, I too see a lot of your reasoning. i'm impressed.

All said, some of this thread has been above what i usually follow on the outdoor channel. It's been an eye opener and i'd like to thank you guys for the info and opinions provided. Well done!

Joey
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-08 AT 10:18AM (MST)[p]Wages are not static. There is more then one way to compete with "3rd world labor" and not become a 3rd World country. One way is through increased productivity, using new technologies and through value added processes. If trade means we will become a third world country then protectionism will mean we become a 4th world country. Protecting industry, not allowing failing companies to fail and printing money has never worked in the history of the world. It has been tried over and over with the same results.

If thing continue on the current deflationary trend then wages are going to come down regardless if the auto industry is saved or not. In fact unions will face even more pressure in a deflationary period then at any other time. The problem will be when the winds of the coming inflationary period stoke the flames into an inflationary holocaust the Unions will be in no position to react because they aided and abetted failing business. The government is going to give blue collar auto workers enough rope to hang themselves from and then they will aks for more.

Our economy is dynamic, it is based upon the idea that when hard times come the most competent people rise to the top. These competent people buy the assets of the incompetent and they continue to operate. By propping up incompetent people and businesses they are doing more harm then good for the long term health of our economy. We are enslaving our children and grand children in order to continue to live economically unsustainable lives.

Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-08 AT 10:55AM (MST)[p]Your theory is sound, or should I say it was 50 years ago. the stong survive that's natural selection, but what happens when the ones who survive are all from other countries? this wasn't a problem in the past.

We can't compete with super cheap labor and an unregulated environmental policy like China has, China will soon knock Japan out as Japan knocked us out just watch. if we want to trade on a level feild with these people we need to live like them, your argument makes no sense. we're a very creative nation but we're not gods, we can't just blow away the competition with our huge intellecual advatage and even if we did reinvent the wheel the Chinese would steal it and sell it to us cheaper than we could produce it.

There is a reason people live in gated communities, and it's not because they want to rub elbows with everyone else. some form of priority and protection for our own is our gate, Ron Paul has tried to get this point across and failed so I'm sure I'm not going to do any better. if all our business and the jobs they provide leave don't worry about the debt, it won't matter you can't get blood from a turnip.
 
i hunt, i sew, i cook, i am diy all the way. does that make me a worse person than the greedy union guys who demand more money and less work. i can live comfortably on less than 12 thousand a year. get a clue and learn how to do it with less!
 
Do you believe China has no internal problems and will continue to grow at such a rapid rate?

If you believe we can't compete then why worsen the sttuation by spending more on uncompetitive business? That is even worse logic.

So to level the playing field we need to do what? By putting up trade barriers you do not protect anyone from the high costs of doing so. You only misallocate resources, scarce resources that could be used to compete in other areas.

Where do you get that I said we are "gods". I said when you are at the bottom the first rule is quit digging. By digging further we are guaranteeing that we won't be competitive in the future.

What has Japan knocked us out of what? They had stagnation in the 1990's when they didn't allow their companies to fail and propped them up. Do some research on the lost decade in the Japanese economy. Here is a story by the very liberal NPR. Take a look at the lessons learned, especially the part of don't try to spend your way out it.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88156284

China is going to be there regardless of what we do. If you want to be able to borrow money to finance your farming operation the wrong way to go about is to put up trade barriers. You will find that other countries will also put of barrier particulary on ag. products.

There is no historical datat that says you can print money and spend your way out of a recession, there is lot's of evidence that says take the bad medicine, insure transparency, let the markets adjust, endure the hard times and the system will correct accordingly.

I know it is hard to believe but the current spending binge is only deepening, weakening and prolonging the problems our economy faces. Building bridges, highways and infrastructure will not solve our problems anymore then propping up car companies.

We are not going to live like the a third world nation unless we ignore sound financial and monetary policies, that is also what Ron Paul Stated over and over. If you are a believer in Ron Paul then I don't understand how you can believe that the Federal Government can do these bailouts. Here is are the YouTube videos of his statements.

Jim Rodgers explains it as well as anyone can


Nemont
 
I wouldn't say I'm a Ron paul fan I just think he has some good ideas. first off he wouldn't bail out the auto makers , he would stop imports so I don't think you can say he would just watch and laugh as they folded. I'm not in favor of isolationalism only because it can't work not because I don't like the idea.

I never said I was in favor of the bank bailout, I'm still not but helping the big 3 survive until a deal can be cut to make them once again productive employers and tax revenue generators is in no way the same thing as a blank check to who knows who or for who knows what that the bank deal is.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-08 AT 12:44PM (MST)[p]HD,

Ron Paul is not in favor of eliminating trade. He is in favor of fair trade. He is not for shutting the border and stopping imports. I never said he would watch and laugh but he also does not support spending taxpayer money on bailing out the auto industry.

Hre is his position on the Auto Bailout. Listen to what he says about the free market. Again if you believe that Ron Paul is right about economics how can you support spending more money on the auto industry? He says nothing about stopping imports in this video.


Here are his comments on the house floor:

While he says basically that the $15 Billion is small potatoes but it is immoral to take it from one set of Americans and give to other Americans.

He echoes nearly verbatim what I have said here in regards to the economy, the Dollar and the long term impacts of these actions.

Here is his stance on trade, he doesn't like NAFTA and the WTO however he is all for trading with countries, No where does he say he wants to stop imports:

Again explain the economic theory that says it is good to take money from some people and give that money to other people in order to protect those people's jobs. That is bad money policy, it is bad politics and it is bad morality.

Nemont
 
I agree the CEO are going to either have to resign or take a huge pay cut.

Do you think this entire mess is a result of CEO compensation? Or are you in favor of only labor being able to get the best deal they can but the CEO's should have their pay regulated?

Who pays any of this? Who ultimately pays the taxes paid by corporations?

Nemont
 
I don't understand this, it seems to be ok to spend 500 to 700 billion dollars over ten years of someone elses money to prop up big pharma,so they don't have to compete with foreign competition. when poor governmental policys like lending currency to private companys for almost no interest and not regulating the secondary lending that transpires, and not taking in enough tax money to cover expenses and borrowing so much as to devalue the currency and bring on high energy costs, so when these things threaten to bring down some major industries its all of a sudden a terrible thing for government to help make sure it doesn't hurt millions of families, I don't care what Ron Paul says, its not hard to see whats immoral
 
Piper,

Who said propping up big Pharma is right? Medicare Part D is a boondoggle of the highest order and if an Insurance company had designed a plan like what the government did they would have been laughed out of the market or worse.

Again, what is the number one rule of crisis management? It is: when you are at the bottom stop digging.

The attitude of many Americans: That big pharma or big oil or big whatever got this tax break so I deserve something also is bad. The old saying two wrongs don't make a right is still in play. It is bad monetary policy, it is bad for the long term viablitity of American industry and in the end accomplishes nothing other the hastening the day that the dollar is shunned by the rest of the world. If you think things are tough right now just wait until we cannot create credit at will.

It is immoral to enslave our children and grandchildren because we don't want to reap what we have sown for the past 20 years. Everyone is to blame white collar, blue collar, no collar, politicians, bankers, everyone. That is why everyone is going to feel the pain with or without government bailouts.

It took a little over 200 years to build a $7 trillion debt and the Fed and Treasury have swapped, traded, nationalized and put the American taxpayer on the hook for that much more in just over 6 months. It has to end.

Nemont
 
Ron Paul is a Texan, you can't expect wonders from him but I like most of his ideas.

The bottom line to me is we must produce to survive, if we have no production capacity we cant produce, so we become depependant which like welfare breeds dependency. this is not a union thing this is an economic one, the unions, CEO's and all involved will have to take pay cuts as they should but you're still against helping them.

This boils down to some people wanting to get a whack at the unions, don't worry they will get a spanking but they don't need to die. give up this path to socialism and it's unfair bs, nothing is fair and we are socialist the bank bailout is proof of that. at this point we're looking for damage control that's all, end of story.

It's become quite clear we're not going to agree on this so lets watch it play out and decide who was correct down the road. if american auto producers survive to employ millions and once again pay taxes I was right, if they die and take some money we borrowed from Hop Sing with them then I was wrong. either way it would be an irresponsible mistake not to make our best attempt to negotiate and help fund a plan to save these american icons, and we will try make no mistake about it. I'm done.
 
Fine, Just a point about your approach. You assume that nobody is going to produce anything that is in accurate.

Also it isn't just about the auto industry, our nation will not be great again any time soon if we try to spend our way of this mess rather then taking our medicine and learning from this. All that it seems most on here have learned is that there is no consquence for poor decisions and bad policies.

Also the American auto companies don't employ millions of people as of Sept 2008 the big three employed 732,800 people world wide of these 237,000 were based in the U.S. So 300 million Americans owe 237,000 people their jobs.

So I will end this now as well because nobody wants to listen to the reality of the situation and what sound economic and monetary policy is. In the end we are all going to be poorer because of these bailout and it will be on the backs of our children and grand children who will ask us why we squandered there future.

nemont
 
Nemont, I can't say your wrong but Its a lot easer to take the tough medicine approach being in the business your in, in fact with all the stress health care providers should be extra busy in the future. I get upset thinking about all the money our government has wasted and all the special interests they have coddled, now the so called middle class has to be punished for it
 

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