Anyone have…?

[El Gringo]

A bunch of Stealth Cams for sale, cheap??

 

[diablo]

There’ll be lots available as soon as AZ bans them. ?

 

[El Gringo]

There’ll be lots available as soon as AZ bans them. ?

Sounds like it’s a done deal….. Man, that’s really going to change the dynamic on the Strip

 

[AZGuy]

I wander if they will really go away?

 

[SS!]

Chute planes will get popular again

 

[wetmule]

Chute planes will get popular again

Spotlighting will be all the rage in 22'

 

[bigbull]

I wander if they will really go away?

They will go away, unless all guides choose to break the law together. If most outfitters obey the rules and still see other outfitters with cams up, the cams will be ripped down quicker than they can put them up.

 

[El Gringo]

I hear a 12 Gauge works….

 

[Homer]

I hear a 12 Gauge works….

for what?

 

[bigbull]

for what?

I'll give you two guesses but I bet you only need one.

 

[BradA]

Did they end up banning trail cameras 100 percent ? Or just within a certain distance of a water source ?

 

[bigbull]

Did they end up banning trail cameras 100 percent ? Or just within a certain distance of a water source ?

100% for the aid of taking big game

 

[Desertmuleyguide]

They will go away, unless all guides choose to break the law together. If most outfitters obey the rules and still see other outfitters with cams up, the cams will be ripped down quicker than they can put them up.

One thing to remember.. Arizona doesn't have outfitters licenses. I wish they did!! The reason that matters is an outfitter can't be held responsible for what one of their guides do. You see it every year, outfitter so and so had a guide get busted for such and such. They always mention the outfitter BUT... the only one that gets in trouble is the guide. The worst that happens to the outfitter is bad press(A3 is a perfect example). So it will really depend on how the individual outfitter chooses to deal with the issue. The ones that look the other way will eventually have guides get busted and get bad press. We will have a pretty strict policy, if we find out one of our guides is running cams he's fired on the spot. Zero tolerance. I think all that will come into play.

I think you're 100% correct in everything you said though. What better way to cause problems for the competition than turning them in for running cameras.

P.S. I apologize about the other day. I wasn't clear in my post and I should have thicker skin. Still don't like be called names but I'm over it.

 

[OutdoorWriter]

You see it every year, outfitter so and so had a guide get busted for such and such. They always mention the outfitter BUT... the only one that gets in trouble is the guide. The worst that happens to the outfitter is bad press(A3 is a perfect example).

That's the way it should be, IMO. If I own a business and hire a guy to deliver stuff, I shoudn't be responsible for his speeding tickets or if he decides to steal Aunt Emma's SS check from her mailbox and gets caught.

 

[DH56]

Here come the Drones.............

 

[OutdoorWriter]

Here come the Drones.............

Unlike cams, drones require a live body to operate at all times.

 

[bigbull]

One thing to remember.. Arizona doesn't have outfitters licenses. I wish they did!! The reason that matters is an outfitter can't be held responsible for what one of their guides do. You see it every year, outfitter so and so had a guide get busted for such and such. They always mention the outfitter BUT... the only one that gets in trouble is the guide. The worst that happens to the outfitter is bad press(A3 is a perfect example). So it will really depend on how the individual outfitter chooses to deal with the issue. The ones that look the other way will eventually have guides get busted and get bad press. We will have a pretty strict policy, if we find out one of our guides is running cams he's fired on the spot. Zero tolerance. I think all that will come into play.

I think you're 100% correct in everything you said though. What better way to cause problems for the competition than turning them in for running cameras.

P.S. I apologize about the other day. I wasn't clear in my post and I should have thicker skin. Still don't like be called names but I'm over it.

It's all good, I apologize as well for the name calling. We disagree a lot but doesn't mean we can't still get along on here.

I agree with you on the above statement. Outfitters will know there are guides running cameras knowing nothing will happen to them. One guide gets caught, oh well, they have a bunch of others to keep it going. That's good to hear your outfit will actually encourage your guides to not use them and fire them if caught. Way different than A3 who pulls all kinds of shady stuff and doesn't care. Perfect example was jed Larson going down for poaching elk on the rez. They said oh he wasn't guiding for us when that happened so we don't care and had him right back in camp the next month guiding the governors tag and continue to employ him. They have no shame and do whatever they have to (legal or illegal) to kill an animal.

 

[bigbull]

View attachment 43257

Unlike cams, drones require a live body to operate at all times.

Also, there are all kind of laws regulating drones already.

 

[Desertmuleyguide]

It's all good, I apologize as well for the name calling. We disagree a lot but doesn't mean we can't still get along on here.

I agree with you on the above statement. Outfitters will know there are guides running cameras knowing nothing will happen to them. One guide gets caught, oh well, they have a bunch of others to keep it going. That's good to hear your outfit will actually encourage your guides to not use them and fire them if caught. Way different than A3 who pulls all kinds of shady stuff and doesn't care. Perfect example was jed Larson going down for poaching elk on the rez. They said oh he wasn't guiding for us when that happened so we don't care and had him right back in camp the next month guiding the governors tag and continue to employ him. They have no shame and do whatever they have to (legal or illegal) to kill an animal.

That's exactly why I'm so thankful we won't mess with any auction tags or strip hunts. For me personally and ethically, being a guide is riding close to the edge anyway. I know it sounds weird coming from a "desertmuleyguide" but the reality is... money corrupts. You have to have a strong character going in or you will eventually end up going over the line. That line doesn't even have to be a legal one. There are lots of things that are legal but still not right. There are a few outfits that I know walk the line. My buddy runs a sheep outfit and they do things right, across the board. I'm sure there are many others too. All his guides are stand up guys. I always say, if you'll cheat small, you'll cheat big.

The camera thing falls right in there with the rest of it.

We probably agree a lot more than we think. Just haven't had the opportunity yet.

 

[Desertmuleyguide]

That's the way it should be, IMO. If I own a business and hire a guy to deliver stuff, I shoudn't be responsible for his speeding tickets or if he decides to steal Aunt Emma's SS check from her mailbox and gets caught.

I agree to an extent. But I also feel like outfitting is different than most other industries. Nobody is trying to get rid of delivery services to save the animals (unless they're delivering oil... lol). I think we need to be held to a very high standard ethically or we leave doors open for things to be taken away by the anti's. I think holding Outfitters to a higher standard shows the non-hunting public that as a culture we care about right and wrong. One thing antis hate more than a hunter is a hunter that gets paid to do it.

 

[OutdoorWriter]

I agree to an extent. But I also feel like outfitting is different than most other industries. Nobody is trying to get rid of delivery services to save the animals (unless they're delivering oil... lol). I think we need to be held to a very high standard ethically or we leave doors open for things to be taken away by the anti's. I think holding Outfitters to a higher standard shows the non-hunting public that as a culture we care about right and wrong. One thing antis hate more than a hunter is a hunter that gets paid to do it.

Agree. If the OUTFITTER breaks a rule/law, hang 'em high.

If a guide is dumb enough to sacrafice his own well-being for his own financial gain or for the sake of an outfitter, it's the guide's choice. He is the responsible party that should pay the price. That is...unless the outfitter put the guide up to the misdeed.

Laws are laws; makes no difference if they apply to speeding, stealing, poaching or murder. If one of my adult kids still lived with me and kills someone, should I be at fault since I raised, fed & housed him?? Sounds like a ludicrous analogy, but it's how the law works.

Ethics is a whole 'nother topic, but again, it very difficult to impugn someone else's ethics for the actions of another person because it ASSUMES the other person KNEW or ENCOURAGED the lawbreaker.

 

[DH56]

View attachment 43257

Unlike cams, drones require a live body to operate at all times.

Fully aware- several friends have them. It won't stop those that want to use one. They currently use these where it's legal to do so already.

My friends brother documented his hunts of what went in to the hunt scenery wise when he and his wife completed the Super Slam of North America.

 

[Desertmuleyguide]

Agree. If the OUTFITTER breaks a rule/law, hang 'em high.

If a guide is dumb enough to sacrafice his own well-being for his own financial gain or for the sake of an outfitter, it's the guide's choice. He is the responsible party that should pay the price. That is...unless the outfitter put the guide up to the misdeed.

Laws are laws; makes no difference if they apply to speeding, stealing, poaching or murder. If one of my adult kids still lived with me and kills someone, should I be at fault since I raised, fed & housed him?? Sounds like a ludicrous analogy, but it's how the law works.

Ethics is a whole 'nother topic, but again, it very difficult to impugn someone else's ethics for the actions of another person because it ASSUMES the other person KNEW or ENCOURAGED the lawbreaker

Maybe my experience is a bit different. I ended up guiding because I was helping my best friend get his business going. I didn't plan on doing it as a career. Anyway, since the beginning he has managed the business with attention to every detail. If one of his guides was shady, he'd know it. I completely understand what you're saying though. I just have a hard time believing that some of these owners don't know what their guides are doing. I feel like if you're so big that you don't know, you're too big. His son and I share second in command duties and I can say with full confidence that I have complete faith in my team.

 

[AZ8]

Guaran-dam-teed the boys up on the Strip have already found a way to circumvent this “minor obstacle“ to their business. Way too much money at stake to believe otherwise. We’d like to think/hope they would follow through 100% no cameras, but when money is involved, that grey line sure gets blurry.

 

[Homer]

it's hard to go back......

 

[Desertmuleyguide]

Guaran-dam-teed the boys up on the Strip have already found a way to circumvent this “minor obstacle“ to their business. Way too much money at stake to believe otherwise. We’d like to think/hope they would follow through 100% no cameras, but when money is involved, that grey line sure gets blurry.

I have no idea what those guys up there will do. I think it will depend on the outfit. I refuse to believe they can't get it done without cameras. I never use them and we do just fine down in the desert. I don't think there's a tougher place on earth to hunt muleys. If we can do it, they can... if they want to put in the effort.

 

[AZ8]

I have no idea what those guys up there will do. I think it will depend on the outfit. I refuse to believe they can't get it done without cameras. I never use them and we do just fine down in the desert. I don't think there's a tougher place on earth to hunt muleys. If we can do it, they can... if they want to put in the effort.

I’m a big fat ZERO with desert muleys!! It has humbled me! haha

I swear those things are damm ghosts!! I had one at 68 yards….just needed to get to one more palo verde…..he was bedded….no idea I was there…..looked down at me feet a split second to make the next step…..buck was gone! Poof! Like a ghost!

 

[Desertmuleyguide]

I’m a big fat ZERO with desert muleys!! It has humbled me! haha

I swear those things are damm ghosts!! I had one at 68 yards….just needed to get to one more palo verde…..he was bedded….no idea I was there…..looked down at me feet a split second to make the next step…..buck was gone! Poof! Like a ghost!

I hate them... but I love them... lol. I've killed plenty with a rifle, never with a bow. Of course now I guide nearly every day of the archery hunt so I don't even know when I'll get another chance. Kind of a bummer but a guy has to make a living. Want to hear something worse? The wife and I drew Dec coues tags last year and I got a grand total of one day to hunt. THAT won't happen again... lol.

 

[AZ8]

I hate them... but I love them... lol. I've killed plenty with a rifle, never with a bow. Of course now I guide nearly every day of the archery hunt so I don't even know when I'll get another chance. Kind of a bummer but a guy has to make a living. Want to hear something worse? The wife and I drew Dec coues tags last year and I got a grand total of one day to hunt. THAT won't happen again... lol.

ouch!

 

[OutdoorWriter]

Maybe my experience is a bit different. I ended up guiding because I was helping my best friend get his business going. I didn't plan on doing it as a career. Anyway, since the beginning he has managed the business with attention to every detail. If one of his guides was shady, he'd know it. I completely understand what you're saying though. I just have a hard time believing that some of these owners don't know what their guides are doing. I feel like if you're so big that you don't know, you're too big. His son and I share second in command duties and I can say with full confidence that I have complete faith in my team.

The dingalings aren't the outfitters who know about the shady guides. As I mentioned, they are the guides themselves who put their own necks in the noose for some money.

 

[OutdoorWriter]

Fully aware- several friends have them. It won't stop those that want to use one. They currently use these where it's legal to do so already.

My friends brother documented his hunts of what went in to the hunt scenery wise when he and his wife completed the Super Slam of North America.

Does he live & hunt in AZ??

 

[Bwht4x4]

I have no idea what those guys up there will do. I think it will depend on the outfit. I refuse to believe they can't get it done without cameras. I never use them and we do just fine down in the desert. I don't think there's a tougher place on earth to hunt muleys. If we can do it, they can... if they want to put in the effort.

IMO you're going to see a lot more spotlighting and possibly some super expensive FLIR units.

 

[El Gringo]

I think it’s a shame for the majority of the state, where it’s not an issue.
From what I’m hearing, it’s a legit fair chase concern on the Az Strip. When they’re killing every significant buck, in the unit, on purpose, each year, then we really need to evaluate the tools on hand. Without them, it will be interesting to see the level of bucks that get killed up there. I predict it will not be nearly so top heavy, and the average size will come down, like it was 10 years ago. Same for Unit 9 bulls, that get targeted and tracked daily during the hunts, with Cams.
What I DO NOT believe, is that it will even the playing fields with the outfitters. The guys paid to be out there more, and hunt these units every year, over and over, will always have an advantage.

What I DO Believe, is that it will make those outfitters a bit less effective in putting their clients on top end animals.