Arizona leading the way, auction tags to be history

Get ready for increases in tag fees.
I don't believe the money's derived from Auction tags were part of the general budget for fish and game. Typically these funds are earmarked for conservation projects. I also believe that the most of the funds lost on Auctions will be replaced by Raffled tag (tags that you and I have a chance at getting).
 
It absolutely does. Selling state owned wildlife to the highest private bidder is exactly why the north American model was evented, to keep it from becoming "all the Kings deer" like it is in Europe. NAM is really just a buzz phrase as none of the wildlife agencies really follow it, they just do when it's convenient.

So, show me where these states that sell gov tags for mule deer have increased their mule deer populations? They haven't but their biologists spend the money on fruitless studies that do nothing for the herds.

Every western state has the money to do meaningful work they just choose to use it for meaningless work. NM is the king of that. The only good that has come from our Gov tags in terms of helping wildlife is in the BHS where the money was/is used for lion controls which directly helped the sheep herds.

There is good that the money spent to do the on the hunts comes into the local economy but that has nothing to do with wildlife.
 
Please show the part of the NACM that says hunting tags can't be sold?

It doesn't exist.

In case you didn't notice this is a capitalist economy. None of those people purchasing tags are royalty. And purchasing the tag doesn't make you sole owner of wildlife.
 
I don't believe the money's derived from Auction tags were part of the general budget for fish and game. Typically these funds are earmarked for conservation projects. I also believe that the most of the funds lost on Auctions will be replaced by Raffled tag (tags that you and I have a chance at getting).
I’m just saying that’ll be their excuse for raising license fees. I’m not against auction tags and the money they generate, hopefully the raffle tag money can make up the difference.
 
We talk about the "North American Model" for wildlife conservation. We talk about "The Rich Guy" buying his way to the front of the line. We mourn the passing of a hunting tradition and legacy that many of us grew up believing would remain forever.

I wonder, if it came down to one, or the other, which would you prefer?

1) We try to retain ALL TAGS being distributed by drawings and, if the wildlife professionals require that license & tag fees increase to accomodate the rising costs, so be it. We ALL pay $5-10$ more for those tags.
or,
2) We continue to increase the prostitution of our hunting and wildlife heritage, and just put all the tags on the auction block? Are there that many wealthy folks out there ready to carry the load? Are we ready to put that legacy in the hands of the rich?
I am not!
 
I don’t see the big deal. The wealthy can still have a real good shot at a permit in the raffle, if they keep that in place. Instead of an auction bid of 300k, they can buy lots of tickets for the raffle. Like many thousands worth. If they don’t win, I’m sure it will feel like a bad trip to Vegas for a lot of them, but they will get the praise of pitching in more where others spend less.
 
Kudos to the State of Arizona. Time to stop pimping our wildlife in the name of conservation. Any chance Utah follows suit? :LOL::ROFLMAO::LOL:

Hawkeye
SFW MDF and other big game super PACS: we raised record money in the name of conservation.

The person paying attention: why don’t mule deer numbers reflect it?

I’m glad people are questioning this. We live in the Information Age you don’t get to try to lie and gaslight without some accountability.
 
We talk about the "North American Model" for wildlife conservation. We talk about "The Rich Guy" buying his way to the front of the line. We mourn the passing of a hunting tradition and legacy that many of us grew up believing would remain forever.

I wonder, if it came down to one, or the other, which would you prefer?

1) We try to retain ALL TAGS being distributed by drawings and, if the wildlife professionals require that license & tag fees increase to accomodate the rising costs, so be it. We ALL pay $5-10$ more for those tags.
or,
2) We continue to increase the prostitution of our hunting and wildlife heritage, and just put all the tags on the auction block? Are there that many wealthy folks out there ready to carry the load? Are we ready to put that legacy in the hands of the rich?
I am not!
5,10,15 more dollars fine by me. If it means never watching another Jimmy John hunt with 30 retards filming 30 retards and then flexing like they are hero’s at the same time. I’m good with that. While we are at it ban outfitting on public land it won’t hurt my feelings or most normal every day hunter.
 
I don’t care if it’s legal or not. It’s not right to pimp them tags out so tristate keep your sorry as in Texas where anything goes. Just don’t come up north and try to tell us what to do. Got that brother!
"Right"?????

What's the weather like in Neverland?
 
5,10,15 more dollars fine by me. If it means never watching another Jimmy John hunt with 30 retards filming 30 retards and then flexing like they are hero’s at the same time. I’m good with that. While we are at it ban outfitting on public land it won’t hurt my feelings or most normal every day hunter.
Nice post Karen.

You know you don't have to change laws to do that

If you don't like it, don't watch it.
 
It's up to Arizona whether they continue to allow auctioning a couple of tags per species for conservation purposes. And the commission has decided they will not. No effect on me whatsoever since I don't buy auction tags. I only do raffles. But the notion that raffles can make up the difference seems unrealistic. Currently, between the auctions and the raffles, the total funding generated for conservation is approaching 4 million per year. But only a tad over 1 million of that is from the raffles. Tough for me to envision the average raffle buyer increasing his annual outlay for the AZ raffles by 4x. I'm pretty spendy on state raffles all across the west, but I sure can't do that. Maybe others can & will.
 
It's up to Arizona whether they continue to allow auctioning a couple of tags per species for conservation purposes. And the commission has decided they will not. No effect on me whatsoever since I don't buy auction tags. I only do raffles. But the notion that raffles can make up the difference seems unrealistic. Currently, between the auctions and the raffles, the total funding generated for conservation is approaching 4 million per year. But only a tad over 1 million of that is from the raffles. Tough for me to envision the average raffle buyer increasing his annual outlay for the AZ raffles by 4x. I'm pretty spendy on state raffles all across the west, but I sure can't do that. Maybe others can & will.
The only 3 species where auction out did raffles were Mule deer, Elk and Bighorn. All the money in the world hasn't helped the MD at all. Elk are doing just fine and Bighorns in AZ do ok until disease gets them which is usually do to contact with domestic sheep and predators.
 
It's up to Arizona whether they continue to allow auctioning a couple of tags per species for conservation purposes. And the commission has decided they will not. No effect on me whatsoever since I don't buy auction tags. I only do raffles. But the notion that raffles can make up the difference seems unrealistic. Currently, between the auctions and the raffles, the total funding generated for conservation is approaching 4 million per year. But only a tad over 1 million of that is from the raffles. Tough for me to envision the average raffle buyer increasing his annual outlay for the AZ raffles by 4x. I'm pretty spendy on state raffles all across the west, but I sure can't do that. Maybe others can & will.


Maybe.

But maybe if Jimmy John can't buy an auction tag, he buys some raffle tags?
 
Nice post Karen.

You know you don't have to change laws to do that

If you don't like it, don't watch it.

Do you think it is grown up behavior to attack the messenger who tells you things can get better if we quit with the excuses and actually start doing what needs to be done?

What does that say about you?


Tri replying to tri is a lot of fun. I should do this more often.
 
I don't believe the money's derived from Auction tags were part of the general budget for fish and game. Typically these funds are earmarked for conservation projects. I also believe that the most of the funds lost on Auctions will be replaced by Raffled tag (tags that you and I have a chance at getting).
If that ends up being the case, then I'm actually fine with that as long as the money raised goes to conservation projects and not the general fund.
 
I don't believe the money's derived from Auction tags were part of the general budget for fish and game. Typically these funds are earmarked for conservation projects. I also believe that the most of the funds lost on Auctions will be replaced by Raffled tag (tags that you and I have a chance at getting).
Not arguing one way or another.
So Arizona take away auction tags that the super wealthy buys (multi millionaire's) and then put the same permits into a raffle system and charge a fairly high price for each raffle ticket trying to make up for what the auction tags brought in, and now instead of the super wealthy having a guaranteed permit now it is the wealthy (guys that make several hundred thousand) and up.
You did not give back the tags to the general average hunter you just included another class of rich people.
The simple fact is the haves will always have more than the average have not, and this is coming from a have not.
 
It absolutely does. Selling state owned wildlife to the highest private bidder is exactly why the north American model was evented, to keep it from becoming "all the Kings deer" like it is in Europe. NAM is really just a buzz phrase as none of the wildlife agencies really follow it, they just do when it's convenient.

So, show me where these states that sell gov tags for mule deer have increased their mule deer populations? They haven't but their biologists spend the money on fruitless studies that do nothing for the herds.

Every western state has the money to do meaningful work they just choose to use it for meaningless work. NM is the king of that. The only good that has come from our Gov tags in terms of helping wildlife is in the BHS where the money was/is used for lion controls which directly helped the sheep herds.

There is good that the money spent to do the on the hunts comes into the local economy but that has nothing to do with wildlife.
They used to raffle tags in CA, now they only auction to the rich...no telling where the money goes and if there are any audits .
 
5,10,15 more dollars fine by me. If it means never watching another Jimmy John hunt with 30 retards filming 30 retards and then flexing like they are hero’s at the same time. I’m good with that. While we are at it ban outfitting on public land it won’t hurt my feelings or most normal every day hunter.
Ban people from public land? Sounds reasonable:unsure:
 
Tri replying to tri is a lot of fun. I should do this more often.
Thanks for pointing out illogical hate for people engaging in legal free behavior won't be tolerated.👍

Is there a title other than Karen that was appropriate for what he was doing? Please share if you know one.
 
So do you po folks think you can buy as many raffle tags as rich people???????

Who do you think will get the most raffle tags?
 
So do you po folks think you can buy as many raffle tags as rich people???????

Who do you think will get the most raffle tags?
Few years ago guy posted he bought 2000 open deer raffles here in CA. He didn't win. Ironically, a guy who bought i raffle got the win. If a rich guy really wants a sure thing here in CA he can buy a PLM tag from private land owner. All an auction does is shut out the little guy. At least there is a chance with raffle.
 
One of my best friends won the Idaho Bighorn Sheep raffle a few years back. Bought $100 worth of tickets. A big money sheep hunter bought several thousand worth of tickets and was first runner up.

I'm 100% in favor of raffles over auction tags.
 
So do you po folks think you can buy as many raffle tags as rich people???????

Who do you think will get the most raffle tags?
I hope them rich pricks buy lots of raffle tags and I’ll bet the guy that buys one will get it. At least we have a chance to get a tag no. Otherwise we have no chance with the auction.
 
Not arguing one way or another.
So Arizona take away auction tags that the super wealthy buys (multi millionaire's) and then put the same permits into a raffle system and charge a fairly high price for each raffle ticket trying to make up for what the auction tags brought in, and now instead of the super wealthy having a guaranteed permit now it is the wealthy (guys that make several hundred thousand) and up.
You did not give back the tags to the general average hunter you just included another class of rich people.
The simple fact is the haves will always have more than the average have not, and this is coming from a have not.

True.

But a step away from the European model is a step in the right direction
 
I guess we will see the bullshit ..

If Jimmy John still scratches a $400k check without a guaranteed tag, I guess he really cared about conservation.

Otherwise I guess he reinforced what we already know
 
I guess we will see the bullshit ..

If Jimmy John still scratches a $400k check without a guaranteed tag, I guess he really cared about conservation.

Otherwise I guess he reinforced what we already know
So every year you go ahead and send a check in for all those tags you don't draw????

Sounds like you're just another Jimmy John.
 
It is clear that auction tags bring in significantly more money. That money goes towards conservation - which increases the number of animals for the average guy to hunt in the future.

For all you guys who do not want auction tags why do you want less tags for the average guy? That is what you are doing in the long run. Very short sighted. I will never, ever buy an auction tag - but I am smart enough to see they benefit everyone the most - especially the average Joe. This is because it increases the game populations thus more tags for the average guy.
 
It is clear that auction tags bring in significantly more money. That money goes towards conservation - which increases the number of animals for the average guy to hunt in the future.

For all you guys who do not want auction tags why do you want less tags for the average guy? That is what you are doing in the long run. Very short sighted. I will never, ever buy an auction tag - but I am smart enough to see they benefit everyone the most - especially the average Joe. This is because it increases the game populations thus more tags for the average guy.
You took the bait that the money boys told you. I feel sorry for you. The animal numbers are down with the auction tags so no they haven’t helped. All it did was create a lot more guides and spotters. It changed the way we hunt. Think about it. Stop the liberal thinking.
 
You took the bait that the money boys told you. I feel sorry for you. The animal numbers are down with the auction tags so no they haven’t helped. All it did was create a lot more guides and spotters. It changed the way we hunt. Think about it. Stop the liberal thinking.
How in the world is any of this "Liberal thinking"?

I'm not sure you know what you are talking about. Your idea is actually a serious threat to all hunting.
 
It is clear that auction tags bring in significantly more money. That money goes towards conservation - which increases the number of animals for the average guy to hunt in the future.

Are you sure about that? I don’t follow this issue in Arizona, but I’d love for these organizations that have been gifted tens of millions of dollars to show the receipts on how many more animals are on the landscape due to these public handouts. Our deer herds in Utah might disagree.

How in the world is any of this "Liberal thinking"?

I'm not sure you know what you are talking about. Your idea is actually a serious threat to all hunting.

This is the single largest state welfare entitlement program running in the state of Utah. Again, I can’t comment on other states as I don’t know how they work, but there is no bigger entitlement handout to “conservation” orgs in Utah than this.
 
I guess we will see the bullshit ..

If Jimmy John still scratches a $400k check without a guaranteed tag, I guess he really cared about conservation.

Otherwise I guess he reinforced what we already know

JJ bought a MT guys sheep herd and replaced it with cattle to protect the wild sheep, and paid for about 4 miles of fencing in NM for their sheep crossing on the hwy. I don't think he got a tag for either. Will he continue to write checks without a tag, no idea, but he has in the past.
 
Are you sure about that? I don’t follow this issue in Arizona, but I’d love for these organizations that have been gifted tens of millions of dollars to show the receipts on how many more animals are on the landscape due to these public handouts. Our deer herds in Utah might disagree.



This is the single largest state welfare entitlement program running in the state of Utah. Again, I can’t comment on other states as I don’t know how they work, but there is no bigger entitlement handout to “conservation” orgs in Utah than this.
Other than selling tens of thousands of big game tags under value.

I guess you forgot about that.
 
It is clear that auction tags bring in significantly more money. That money goes towards conservation - which increases the number of animals for the average guy to hunt in the future.

For all you guys who do not want auction tags why do you want less tags for the average guy? That is what you are doing in the long run. Very short sighted. I will never, ever buy an auction tag - but I am smart enough to see they benefit everyone the most - especially the average Joe. This is because it increases the game populations thus more tags for the average guy.

In Utah $fw has taken in tens of millions.

Our deer herd would be lucky to be where it was when $fw started.
 
I hear about hunters complaining the money raised from auction tags has not made a noticeable difference. I wonder how many states and the mule deer downward spiral is related to loss of habitat, human population growth, drought and the lack of controlling the predator populations? I know here in AZ our mule deer population took a sharp nosedive when they banned certain types of trapping back in early 90's. I never realized just how much trappers did to control lions and coyotes. We have been in a severe drought in the western states for last 20-24 years and western states have experienced huge migrations of people from east & cali over last 20-30 years. I know here in AZ we are growing by a million people every 8-9 years since 1980. It's just not sustainable.


If we can't control or least have some impact on these things, I am not sure how much can really be done by hunters at this point. For all the reasons listed above that is why I am not really all that surprised when people say they don't notice where the money is going from auction tags.
 
So who are yall gonna blame if big game hunting in AZ continues to decline and there's no big bad rich people to blame?
 
You

I’m sorry that this likely will cost you another client or two.
See that's what you don't understand about rich folks. They don't sit around blaming problems on some group or hating poor people. They go find satisfaction in something else. Just because those evil Ritch folks aren't buying conservation tags doesn't suddenly mean they gave up hunting.

Sorry your illogical hate didn't provide you the childish satisfaction you hoped for.
 
Doesn't matter what you claim. I guess you reinforced what we already know.

Sure it does.

That's how that got sold to the legislature.

Seems "we need to set aside the best tags in the state for rich dudes to buy", didn't go as well as claiming it was for conservation
 
Other than selling tens of thousands of big game tags under value.

I guess you forgot about that.
What a stupid comment. So are you saying all tags should be auctioned off. I know that would bring in more money. Is that what you want, money. Money isn’t the answer buddy.
 
And yes it is liberal thinking tristate. More government taking away the middle class right to reasonable tags. You want to give them to the rich. In my eyes that’s taking away more things from the average Joe.
 
What a stupid comment. So are you saying all tags should be auctioned off. I know that would bring in more money. Is that what you want, money. Money isn’t the answer buddy.
Broke wildlife agencies ain't the answer.

Sure auction them all off. Don't leave any money on the table.

Yall look and sound just like welfare recipients when someone talks about changing your benefits. Wailing and washing of teeth.

"OH Lawdy giz me a tag dis year!"
 
And yes it is liberal thinking tristate. More government taking away the middle class right to reasonable tags. You want to give them to the rich. In my eyes that’s taking away more things from the average Joe.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

A right to reasonable tags!🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

And you are scared of "liberal thinking"? Like I said, you don't know what those words mean.
 
Something something attack me something something cry cry and play victim something something. What does that say about you?

Did I get that right?
 
If they auctioned off all 35,000 B Zone blacktail tags in California they would raise about $35,000. They would finally get what they're actually worth.
And that's what needs to happen. That's how capitalism works and this socialized welfare falls on its face.

The biggest act of welfare in Utah is the big game draw system.
 
And that's what needs to happen. That's how capitalism works and this socialized welfare falls on its face.

The biggest act of welfare in Utah is the big game draw system.
You are insane. No logic in you at all. Good luck to you sleepy joe.
 
That isn’t how you eliminate an economic market. Key word being market.
Are you saying you want to eliminate people? Are you saying you want to eliminate buildings? You are painting with a broad brush. Please elaborate.

But yes. That is how you eliminate markets. You can either eliminate the infrastructure of the market or legislate against it. Arizona has chosen door number 2.
 
I believe all the auction, raffle, etc. tags should go to the draw system - that said we should all be prepared to pay much more for our licenses. We should all (residents especially) be willing if not eager to help pay much more for the cost of wildlife management and habitat development, improvement, and acquisition. If not keep the auction tags.
 
And that's what needs to happen. That's how capitalism works and this socialized welfare falls on its face.

The biggest act of welfare in Utah is the big game draw system.


Thank God.

I agree.

I assumed the firefighters we sent to Texas to fight their wildfire was the biggest act of social welfare in Utah.

Or the national guard we sent.

I didn't realize that Texas had hired them off the open market at rates set through the competitive market.

Thank God I learned tags were the issue in Utah
 
Thank God.

I agree.

I assumed the firefighters we sent to Texas to fight their wildfire was the biggest act of social welfare in Utah.

Or the national guard we sent.

I didn't realize that Texas had hired them off the open market at rates set through the competitive market.

Thank God I learned tags were the issue in Utah
Vanilla told you they were.
 
Are you saying you want to eliminate people? Are you saying you want to eliminate buildings? You are painting with a broad brush. Please elaborate.

But yes. That is how you eliminate markets. You can either eliminate the infrastructure of the market or legislate against it. Arizona has chosen door number 2.
No, markets are eliminated by moving them to government administration. IE utilities, if there is no competition there is no market.

So the essence of the elimination of markets to me is putting the management of wildlife solely under the administration of government, they’ve moved away from that mandate by muddying the waters with non profit organizations and conservation permits. This has created a market, one that is influenced by the value that quality oriented management strategies and product scarcity heavily influence.

Both of those influences are contrary to the NAM IMO.

Can you imagine if we decided to change how we managed the water that comes to our homes under those principles? The highest bidder in the name of ‘water conservation’ gets the highest quality water guaranteed, the rest of us have to wait our turn for whatever water is deemed worthy?
 
I agree. Doesn't mean you have to legislate against stupid.

Part of living in a free country.
Well what those idiots did for a few YouTube dollars doesn’t look good for hunting and it sure looks terrible for outfitting and auction tags. But those goofballs will go on a podcast and talk down to the draw tag guys about grip and grin ethics, public land etiquette ect. Yet they’ve packed a rigeline 30 dudes deep on a velvet bull for a tough 1000 yd shot that the technology will basically white his A55 after he’s done. If the law allowed it one of those clowns would have flown a drone to get the impact of the shot from above. These auction tags are a joke and so is outfitting on public land. It’s kinda like 30 dudes screwing the same hooker in the same night and thinking they had some serious game.
 
No, markets are eliminated by moving them to government administration. IE utilities, if there is no competition there is no market.

So the essence of the elimination of markets to me is putting the management of wildlife solely under the administration of government, they’ve moved away from that mandate by muddying the waters with non profit organizations and conservation permits. This has created a market, one that is influenced by the value that quality oriented management strategies and product scarcity heavily influence.

Both of those influences are contrary to the NAM IMO.

Can you imagine if we decided to change how we managed the water that comes to our homes under those principles? The highest bidder in the name of ‘water conservation’ gets the highest quality water guaranteed, the rest of us have to wait our turn for whatever water is deemed worthy?
You’d be drinking Jimmy John’s recycled piss on that model.
 
No, markets are eliminated by moving them to government administration. IE utilities, if there is no competition there is no market.

So the essence of the elimination of markets to me is putting the management of wildlife solely under the administration of government, they’ve moved away from that mandate by muddying the waters with non profit organizations and conservation permits. This has created a market, one that is influenced by the value that quality oriented management strategies and product scarcity heavily influence.

Both of those influences are contrary to the NAM IMO.

Can you imagine if we decided to change how we managed the water that comes to our homes under those principles? The highest bidder in the name of ‘water conservation’ gets the highest quality water guaranteed, the rest of us have to wait our turn for whatever water is deemed worthy?
That's not the elimination of a market and it is legislating which is what I posted above.

The state has decided and has total control of how a hunting opportunity is distributed through an auction. So there is no violation of the NACM.
 
I won’t waste anymore time here because it’s somewhat subjective since there isn’t a line in the model that explicitly states ‘private money bad for hunters and animals’

A pure market economy is defined by unrestricted competition, any competition by proxy creates a form of market. I cannot help but see an auction as a marketplace where competitors vie for a product that was supposed to regulated and administered by a government entity not a non-profit.

With that, I’m done, this ain’t the forum for nuanced communication, especially with regard to a couple of the individuals pontificating here.
 
If you come to the internet for facts or truth you have a lot of growing up to do.

You are finally being honest about not giving facts or truth on this forum. This is a big step, Tri! I’m proud of you.

A miracle on Palm Sunday. Who said miracles have ceased?
 
That's not the elimination of a market and it is legislating which is what I posted above.

The state has decided and has total control of how a hunting opportunity is distributed through an auction. So there is no violation of the NACM.

"The state" hasn't.

The state doesn't own the wildlife. The citizenry does. The state MANAGES our wildlife.
 
I won’t waste anymore time here because it’s somewhat subjective since there isn’t a line in the model that explicitly states ‘private money bad for hunters and animals’

A pure market economy is defined by unrestricted competition, any competition by proxy creates a form of market. I cannot help but see an auction as a marketplace where competitors vie for a product that was supposed to regulated and administered by a government entity not a non-profit.

With that, I’m done, this ain’t the forum for nuanced communication, especially with regard to a couple of the individuals pontificating here.


Which is why I believe that raffles are acceptable in that IF we decide a higher amount of funding is required, it allows for the greatest number of the population to participate. Or at least it makes the odds the same per entry regardless of social status or bank account.

My percentage of ownership of my states wildlife is the exact same as Gail Millers and our OPPORTUNITY to access of it should reflect that
 
Well what those idiots did for a few YouTube dollars doesn’t look good for hunting and it sure looks terrible for outfitting and auction tags. But those goofballs will go on a podcast and talk down to the draw tag guys about grip and grin ethics, public land etiquette ect. Yet they’ve packed a rigeline 30 dudes deep on a velvet bull for a tough 1000 yd shot that the technology will basically white his A55 after he’s done. If the law allowed it one of those clowns would have flown a drone to get the impact of the shot from above. These auction tags are a joke and so is outfitting on public land. It’s kinda like 30 dudes screwing the same hooker in the same night and thinking they had some serious game.
Any of that can occur with any type of tag. Not just an auction tag.
 

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