That's why there's still random tags in most areas probably all after 90/10. You're entitled to your own opinionThanks for sharing, I'm in favor of a transition to bonus points. I will share with friends and family who have young kids and maybe want a chance to draw some of the areas where there is not a random tag to be had. So your telling me there's a chance! ?
Yea, not sure why anyone would think a kid is going to appreciate a tag more then someone who's been building points for 25 years for a once in a lifetime tag. Also it's good to know when you're going to draw a once in a lifetime tag. I think it would suck to draw a once in a lifetime tag when you're 12 and don't even know enough about hunting to truly enjoy it to its fullest potential and appreciate it to is fullest as well but that's just my thoughts you don't get a second shot that's it.Apparently, Director Nesvik doesn't understand the current system has a random draw of 25% of the tags. It is stated, with bonus points, everyone will have a chance, which is already the case.
That's definitely correct in regards to Nevada. I have experienced the same exact thing.I have always thought the best deal would have been keep preference points, 50-50 split between Random and Points.
Hardly anything changes in regard to the preference point allocation from added tags via 90-10, but would be significantly better for the Random side of the draw.
Anyone that believes squared bonus points work so great hasn't been applying long in Montana or Nevada.
My odds are worse in Nevada now than 10 years ago and I'm nearly 20 years into Nevada's squared bonus point system and haven't drawn a single tag there for anything. As applicants behind you pile up, your odds are diluted.
Opposite here. 6 quality tags in 20 years. But on the flip side I drew 1 out of 10 years in Idaho in a unit with 50/50 odds.That's definitely correct in regards to Nevada. I have experienced the same exact thing.
Correct BUT we never had the population and the demand on the limited resource like we have now.... in every State, Period. Many tags are still OTC for res hunters anyway!We never had problems like this when tags were sold over the counter only.
Haha. From that statement, I know there are more than a few 12 year olds who would likely hunt circles around you on their once in a lifetime tags… My son would love a good tag and he is 12, and I am willing to bet he would hunt it harder than 90% of the adults that hunt.Yea, not sure why anyone would think a kid is going to appreciate a tag more then someone who's been building points for 25 years for a once in a lifetime tag. Also it's good to know when you're going to draw a once in a lifetime tag. I think it would suck to draw a once in a lifetime tag when you're 12 and don't even know enough about hunting to truly enjoy it to its fullest potential and appreciate it to is fullest as well but that's just my thoughts you don't get a second shot that's it.
Really? You missed his point I think.Haha. From that statement, I know there are more than a few 12 year olds who would likely hunt circles around you on their once in a lifetime tags… My son would love a good tag and he is 12, and I am willing to bet he would hunt it harder than 90% of the adults that hunt.
And you aren't even gonna hunt circles around me much less your kid ?Haha. From that statement, I know there are more than a few 12 year olds who would likely hunt circles around you on their once in a lifetime tags… My son would love a good tag and he is 12, and I am willing to bet he would hunt it harder than 90% of the adults that hunt.
Bonus points are a joke, preference points work. the only people who don't like preference points are people who don't have enough of them.
It depends how many kids hes buying them for, .....I know when you have 3 kids it gets pricey!Its impossible for a nr to have spent $6000 on points and nobody is gonna sue.
Mostly correct but if you read between the lines, like we all should, it's a survey to determine how to morph the system to keep NR's buying points and continue to slash NR tags. It's not veiled so you don't have to look very hard to see that's what the survey is really about.The decision on what they are going to do has already been made. Surveys and all the crap are just to pretend people were listened to.
You can count on that.
Throw in a couple kids per year and you could for sure. I think I will likely sue with 21 sheep points. I am guessing I will not win, but it is a 30K+ sort of tag many have waited for decades to draw and the rug is being pulled out to incentivize people buying points. I really don't see how there will not be a lawsuit of some sort unless refunds are offered. My 2 cents which will be worth 2 more cents than my 21 sheep points.Its impossible for a nr to have spent $6000 on points and nobody is gonna sue.
All you need is a group of guys and a lawyer will come.Throw in a couple kids per year and you could for sure. I think I will likely sue with 21 sheep points. I am guessing I will not win, but it is a 30K+ sort of tag many have waited for decades to draw and the rug is being pulled out to incentivize people buying points. I really don't see how there will not be a lawsuit of some sort unless refunds are offered. My 2 cents which will be worth 2 more cents than my 21 sheep points.
I took the comment to mean an individual.Throw in a couple kids per year and you could for sure.
Just like you said the Wyo results would not be out early? ?Its impossible for a nr to have spent $6000 on points and nobody is gonna sue.
I can't find my copy of the PP agreement we all have with the G&F. Could you post yours here please?Well Wyoming hasn't been "giving" away bonus points, they've been selling them for $150 a pop. Because Wyoming took the money they have a duty to perform the terms of the agreement.
I have no intention to "lawyer up" but I bet there are those who will and just suggest the Wyoming Legislature have their legal experts explore this scenario before they pass legislation.
Just like you said the Wyo results would not be out early? ?
Couldn’t agree more. Their State, their system, mine to like it or leave it. I’ve got 22 moose points, I won’t sue. I’m a swimming pool, not a sewer. I knew what I was doing when I started buying points.The fees starting with year one are available from the dept to anyone who asks. He can sue the state if he wants to, I doubt it’ll get to court. No matter what they do a nr will still have a chance to draw. I haven’t seen a regulation nor statute that says anyone is guaranteed a tag. Sucks for sure, AZ doubled my wait time for a 2nd Elk tag.
They publish the regs every yearI can't find my copy of the PP agreement we all have with the G&F. Could you post yours here please?
This ^ 100%Mostly correct but if you read between the lines, like we all should, it's a survey to determine how to morph the system to keep NR's buying points and continue to slash NR tags.
I would bet my 12 year old would hunt as hard if not harder than 90% of the guys with a similar tag. Also stand by the idea that he can appreciate it as much as the next guy.And you aren't even gonna hunt circles around me much less your kid ?
You could have drawn lots of moose tags with 22 points and can get out and draw a tag any year, way different scenario then someone with 21 sheep pointsCouldn’t agree more. Their State, their system, mine to like it or leave it. I’ve got 22 moose points, I won’t sue. I’m a swimming pool, not a sewer. I knew what I was doing when I started buying points.
Do I want to loose my chance after the time and money, hell not, but it’s not my business how Wyoming runs it’s business….I’m free to leave if I want to. I may but that’s the way it is. I was never, ever promised a moose tag.
?I would bet my 12 year old would hunt as hard if not harder than 90% of the guys with a similar tag. Also stand by the idea that he can appreciate it as much as the next guy.
That’s true, and I couldn’t tell anyone a single thing about sheep points, I’m not a sheep hunter and never have been, so I’ll leave the sheep info for the sheep guys to respond to.You could have drawn lots of moose tags with 22 points and can get out and draw a tag any year, way different scenario then someone with 21 sheep points
No you didn't. This is not true.Opposite here. 6 quality tags in 20 years. But on the flip side I drew 1 out of 10 years in Idaho in a unit with 50/50 odds.
Do you really think that you will use your points in 4 years? That is the problemHaven’t posted here in a while. I responded to the WG&F survey, and if you are a points-holder, would encourage you to do so also.
My response emphasized the importance of delaying the implementation of the proposed change for AT LEAST four years, not the UP TO four years currently included in the letter (which could mean one year, or less!). This would give some of those who have ”invested” in expensive preference points for twenty years or more a chance to use their points before being thrown into the weighted bonus point lottery.
HT
If they aren't applying for tags, how is that decreasing draw odds? They have to apply for their points to mean anything in the draw.Do you really think that you will use your points in 4 years? That is the problem
With points. A bunch of guys with no intention to hunt build up points. Running the cost up
For everyone and the odds down.
The problem with that is G&F has correctly identified the fact that a PP system along with 90/10 will dramatically decrease the amount of NRs willing to play their game. They won’t be able to balance their books if they take up your suggestion. It is much easier to just deal with upset NRs who invested in a system of their creation, the previous PP system.I can't find my copy of the PP agreement we all have with the G&F.
Did the exact same thing with moose. For the same reason. I still didn’t draw, still was a one four chance with 21 points. Oh well……. It’s Wyoming’s wildlife, their choice to make.I did what I did this year, due to knowing this was coming. I had 21 points for moose and drew a tag and will gladly use it and make it the best experience I can. I put in for a unit I hoped I would draw. However, not the top units I had been putting in for (I settled for what was best for this new situation). I'll get to hunt my moose in Wyoming and will enjoy it. Not quit the hunt I was looking forward to, but a moose hunt.
As people have said, I could have drawn a lesser moose tags for several years now, but not what most hunters originally got into the point game for. Just saying.
I know Wyoming has been losing applicants in the moose and sheep pools for years and are trying to find a way to get numbers up to increase revenue. I understand that.
However, points started at a very reasonable price 20+ years ago and then went up to todays rate of $150 plus a $15 application and a 2.5% transaction fee of $50 on the $2000 tag fee for moose. As stated before, adds up and changes to the point game after years of investing is not easy to swallow. Great for the residents (small odd increase) bad for NR, but we are non-resident and not garrenteed anything. We must just make our own choice to hunt what and where we wish for what cost.
Moose - $150+ a year for point with app fee.
Sheep - $150+ a year for point with app fee.
Elk - $50+ a year for point with app fee.
Deer - $40+ a year for point with app fee.
Antelope - $30+ a year for point with app fee.
At $420 a person just to apply for points for these. (Not including $15 app fee and 2.5% transaction fees). It adds up when I apply for wife, 3 sons and myself.
This is where I have to make the choice to continue to just purchase deer and antelope tags/points for us all and continue to purchase elk points until my last two sons draw elk. I have hunted wyoming for over 40 years and appreciate and love hunting there. I hope to continue, but it will be for deer and antelope only after this years moose hunt and my two sons drawing their elk tags.
Hunting with family and making memories is what it is about. Weather that be chasing Wyoming big game or whitetails back east to Texas hogs or just rabbits and small game. Time with family making memories at a price that makes sense and doesn't break the bank.
Sorry for the rant. Thanks to Wyoming and it's residents for many memories made and more to be made. Hope to see you all in wyoming on one of our hunts or maybe even tagging along with some of those that do draw wyoming tags. Pulling the trigger does not make the hunt or memories anymore.
Best of luck to you all this fall on your hunts
Interstate commerce doesn't matter anymore either.The problem with that is G&F has correctly identified the fact that a PP system along with 90/10 will dramatically decrease the amount of NRs willing to play their game. They won’t be able to balance their books if they take up your suggestion. It is much easier to just deal with upset NRs who invested in a system of their creation, the previous PP system.
They feel confident the good ol’ boy network which includes the Wyo courts will protect them from lawsuits. Except for that pesky interstate commerce issue…
Yep. As they should.Interstate commerce doesn't matter anymore either.
SB 399 passed in 2005, reaffirming state rights to manage wildlife. Included language that nullified interstate commerce in regard to allocations of a states wildlife.
Laying it on there pretty thick ?
The problem with that is G&F has correctly identified the fact that a PP system along with 90/10 will dramatically decrease the amount of NRs willing to play their game. They won’t be able to balance their books if they take up your suggestion.
The challenge would not be about allocations of wildlife. It would be with regard to the contractual nature of the issue of points. Should be interesting!Interstate commerce doesn't matter anymore either.
SB 399 passed in 2005, reaffirming state rights to manage wildlife. Included language that nullified interstate commerce in regard to allocations of a states wildlife.
when money is basically free people will do stupid things with it. Recession is on its way, and money is becoming more expensive. Don't expect this trend to continue next year.
2,151 NR with 1 point, double the previous year. There is no shortage of people jumping into the game.
You are correct. SB 399 reaffirmed state rights to MANAGE wildlife. This is a far cry from the “ownership” of wildlife often claimed by guys who don’t know the law.Interstate commerce doesn't matter anymore either.
SB 399 passed in 2005, reaffirming state rights to manage wildlife. Included language that nullified interstate commerce in regard to allocations of a states wildlife.
Incorrect, read the bill.You are correct. SB 399 reaffirmed state rights to MANAGE wildlife. This is a far cry from the “ownership” of wildlife often claimed by guys who don’t know the law.
Most of Wyoming’s wildlife occurs on FEDERAL land, belonging to all of the people of the United State. If Wyoming and other states, such as New Mexico, want to severely discrimate against non-residents in the use of federal lands for hunting purposes (being the only discriminatory use of federal land based on residency status), then perhaps it is time to shut down all hunting on federal land, treating it all as we do the national parks, as refuge for wildlife.
Let Wyoming allocate hunting rights on state owned land to a fare-the-well.
I expect this is where these severely discriminatory policies will lead.
HT
The challenge would not be about allocations of wildlife. It would be with regard to the contractual nature of the issue of points. Should be interesting!
You are correct. SB 399 reaffirmed state rights to MANAGE wildlife. This is a far cry from the “ownership” of wildlife often claimed by guys who don’t know the law.
Most of Wyoming’s wildlife occurs on FEDERAL land, belonging to all of the people of the United State. If Wyoming and other states, such as New Mexico, want to severely discrimate against non-residents in the use of federal lands for hunting purposes (being the only discriminatory use of federal land based on residency status), then perhaps it is time to shut down all hunting on federal land, treating it all as we do the national parks, as refuge for wildlife.
Let Wyoming allocate hunting rights on state owned land to a fare-the-well.
I expect this is where these severely discriminatory policies will lead.
HT
Mine is. Haha. Come to Virginia where we love all non-residents! You can shoot 3 bucks, 3 turkeys and a bear on millions of acres of national forest for a fraction of the cost of tags in western states.Meanwhile your home state is looking out for the NR.
I'll remember this the next time I'm on federal land hunting Wyoming's wildlife. I'll crack a smile just for you.Well, try hunting ”your” wildlife in a national park. Not allowed, is it?
I used to do a bit of mountaineering. When I applied for a permit to summit the Grand Teton, no one asked about my residency status. Any citizen of the United States could apply to climb that mountain, even though it was located in Wyoming.
Currently, the ONLY use of federal lands for which discrimination takes place based on residency status is hunting. Just sayin… if residents of states like Wyoming keep shoving non-residents away, those non-residents may decide at some point that no one… no one… should be allowed to hunt wildlife on any federal land, including national forests, BLM, wildlife refuges and the like.
How's the pronghorn, mule deer and elk hunting?P
Mine is. Haha. Come to Virginia where we love all non-residents! You can shoot 3 bucks, 3 turkeys and a bear on millions of acres of national forest for a fraction of the cost of tags in western states.
P
Mine is. Haha. Come to Virginia where we love all non-residents! You can shoot 3 bucks, 3 turkeys and a bear on millions of acres of national forest for a fraction of the cost of tags in western states.
Pretty sure elk are hunted in Teton national park.Well, try hunting ”your” wildlife in a national park. Not allowed, is it?
I used to do a bit of mountaineering. When I applied for a permit to summit the Grand Teton, no one asked about my residency status. Any citizen of the United States could apply to climb that mountain, even though it was located in Wyoming.
Currently, the ONLY use of federal lands for which discrimination takes place based on residency status is hunting. Just sayin… if residents of states like Wyoming keep shoving non-residents away, those non-residents may decide at some point that no one… no one… should be allowed to hunt wildlife on any federal land, including national forests, BLM, wildlife refuges and the like.
Hunting goes on in Denali national park and wrangel st Elias national park. And Teton national park…You are correct. SB 399 reaffirmed state rights to MANAGE wildlife. This is a far cry from the “ownership” of wildlife often claimed by guys who don’t know the law.
Most of Wyoming’s wildlife occurs on FEDERAL land, belonging to all of the people of the United State. If Wyoming and other states, such as New Mexico, want to severely discrimate against non-residents in the use of federal lands for hunting purposes (being the only discriminatory use of federal land based on residency status), then perhaps it is time to shut down all hunting on federal land, treating it all as we do the national parks, as refuge for wildlife.
Let Wyoming allocate hunting rights on state owned land to a fare-the-well.
I expect this is where these severely discriminatory policies will lead.
HT
Two problems with "waiting 4 years", for NR's especially. First is, that during those 4 years, no one except the max and near-max point holders will have any chance in the draw. Because the random sheep tags for NR's have now been mathematically eliminated by the legislature's 90/10 mandate which takes effect in July of this year. So everyone else just has to keep applying and buying points at 150.00 a pop, with zero chance to draw? The second issue is that there are more than 1000 NR's holding 21 or more points. Since there are now a maximum of 18 licenses available for NR's yearly, it would take 55+ years to clear just those guys out, if they lived long enough. There's gotta be a better plan.Haven’t posted here in a while. I responded to the WG&F survey, and if you are a points-holder, would encourage you to do so also.
My response emphasized the importance of delaying the implementation of the proposed change for AT LEAST four years, not the UP TO four years currently included in the letter (which could mean one year, or less!). This would give some of those who have ”invested” in expensive preference points for twenty years or more a chance to use their points before being thrown into the weighted bonus point lottery.
HT
It's awesome! The rest are a real challenge though and if you combine western tactics with eastern whitetail ones you can be succesful. It is super rewarding and in many cases quite a bit harder and more challenging than a western hunt for mule deer or elk. A big woods mature whitetail is quite the trophy.How's the pronghorn, mule deer and elk hunting?
Good question. More should do it, especially based on the cost and opportunity and season times. You can hunt the whole month of November with a gun, usually after many of the Western seasons end and you can shoot more than 1 buck if you want to.If the hunting is so great in Virginia, why do thousands of hunters from back east come west, but very few westerners head to places like Virginia.
P
Mine is. Haha. Come to Virginia where we love all non-residents! You can shoot 3 bucks, 3 turkeys and a bear on millions of acres of national forest for a fraction of the cost of tags in western states.
Incorrect, read the bill.
Land ownership and wildlife ownership are mutually exclusive.
It's been tried in court and nrs lose everytime.
They won't be getting sued over anything.once again, BuzzH, Wyoming G&F will not be getting sued over ownership. It will be sued over deceptive business practices, fraud, or whatever our high-dollar attorneys decide is appropriate. Kepp on believing a PP is the same as a BP. But there will be a price to pay. Perhaps increased R tag prices can cover the damages awarded. Im out of the points game for the Big 5 in Wyo so this is just entertainment for me now.
A Haiku to the NR, titled "BuzzH decides."They won't be getting sued over anything.
Also you can't be out of the point system for the big 5. Goat, bison and grizzly have no point system to get out of.
One thing he is probably right about. Gonna be hard to find an attorney that will take it to court. State vs disgruntled nr hunter. Good luckA Haiku to the NR, titled "BuzzH decides."
BuzzH decides if you feel you have been damaged.
BuzzH decides if you can seek counsel or not.
BuzzH decides if you choose to sue.
BuzzH decides if the case has merit.
BuzzH decides if the case has standing.
BuzzH decides your case is heard.
BuzzH decides if your case prevails.
BuzzH decides if damages are awarded.
Buzz H decides.
Federally controlled “culling” by government employees may be going on in those national parks… but permitted hunting? If so, where does one apply for a permit?Hunting goes on in Denali national park and wrangel st Elias national park. And Teton national park…
Here https://wgfd.wyo.gov/apply-or-buyFederally controlled “culling” by government employees may be going on in those national parks… but permitted hunting? If so, where does one apply for a permit?
Are you sure you’ve got your facts straight?
There's little doubt you're "damaged"...but I can't help you with that.A Haiku to the NR, titled "BuzzH decides."
BuzzH decides if you feel you have been damaged.
BuzzH decides if you can seek counsel or not.
BuzzH decides if you choose to sue.
BuzzH decides if the case has merit.
BuzzH decides if the case has standing.
BuzzH decides your case is heard.
BuzzH decides if your case prevails.
BuzzH decides if damages are awarded.
Buzz H decides.
There is no culling going on in AK. And yes they can be hunted. Fact.I’ve hunted the wildlife preserves adjoining both Denali and Wrangell - St. Elias national parks, and took solid rams out of each. But there was never any question about crossing the boundary to hunt in the national parks, which would have been highly illegal.
Are you sure you’ve got your facts straight?
Sorry to go off script but Jake when did you post that profile picture you been hiding that one or have I not seen you on here in awhile!? That is one hell of a deer My friendThanks for sharing, I'm in favor of a transition to bonus points. I will share with friends and family who have young kids and maybe want a chance to draw some of the areas where there is not a random tag to be had. So your telling me there's a chance! ?
Cant even drive to the unit…I would bet my 12 year old would hunt as hard if not harder than 90% of the guys with a similar tag. Also stand by the idea that he can appreciate it as much as the next guy.
Hahaha so true. 12 year olds hunt about as hard as grandpas. They just slow you down.Cant even drive to the unit…
Legally? He actually drive decent…Cant even drive to the unit…
Bike or big wheel? ?Legally? He actually drive decent…
What did she hit?Bike or big wheel? ?
With that said I let my 12 yr old granddaughter drive in public. Great life lesson learned early than later.
We focus on trophy elk, mule deer, antelope and moose hunts and take B&C bucks most years.