Book Cliffs to be Fracked

This is Old News!

And I think you spelled ####ED Wrong!




Founder just Banned My Signature!
Hang in there!
I'm working on another one!:D
 
Props to SFW for opposing this BS, but Byron Batemen complaining about back room deals and transparency is almost comical.
 
Welcome to my neck of the woods. In all honesty fracking is not different than drilling. It is all about extraction of the resource. Despite all the hoopla. there is still no case presented where the actual practice of fracking has done any harm. In many cases fracking is good because they can reach desired extraction with fewer overall wells and well sites.

Pretty much all of north west Colorado Has been hit hard. The real wildlife impacts will come from Vehicle animal collision, loss of habititat, weeds invasion, and poaching. We saw paoch ing go way up in our area when we were booming. The big companies were doing what they could but when you have 1000 nonresidents just getting a check bad things happen.

The drilling is like anything else, learn to live with it and you can actually do really well. The part I hate the most is the addition and improvement to the road systems. Now we have roads all over the place that used to be foot access only. Quality has went down because lazy road hunters now can get into all sorts of places they could not before...It does have an effect but drilling is not the end of the world... You just have to work harder and be that much more creative.
 
What's wrong with increasing domestic oil and gas production? I guess we should just shut down all our wells and just buy our oil from the Middle East, 10 dollar a gallon gas anyone? Show me one documented case by real scientists not envirowacko's that fracking has caused damage to anything. The worst part about the development like elks96 said is all the new roads that get built allowing more access.
Here's an article from the Wall Street Journal about fracking. There are more this was just the first one that came up.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...6398462932810874.html?mod=WSJ_hp_mostpop_read
 
The point isn't the method used (fracking or otherwise), it's the infrastructure required to do it. Once the roadless areas get roads, it will never go back. That's my concern.

Those in drilled areas, and I've been in plenty, know how much infrastructure is required with all the water tanks, power stations, compressor stations, platform locations, etc... It's a massive undertaking.

My belief is that some places are worth not drilling.

Grizzly

PS. Tristate, please be an adult and respect my wishes that you do not respond to any of my posts. I, in turn, will do you the courtesy of not responding to any of yours. I simply do not wish to converse with you.
 
>This is Old News!
>


Read the article, this is brand new.


Grizzly

PS. Tristate, please be an adult and respect my wishes that you do not respond to any of my posts. I, in turn, will do you the courtesy of not responding to any of yours. I simply do not wish to converse with you.
 
I guess when you Live near the Area you hear about these things long before somebody posts it & it becomes GOSPEL!

Ya,I know not everything you hear is True,but this ain't BRAND NEW grizzly!

The Quicker they can get in & Destroy an area the Easier it will be for them!

ROADLESS = Money,Greed & Government Destroying one more place they shouldn't be Screwin with!






Founder just Banned My Signature!
Hang in there!
I'm working on another one!:D
 
This is hard for me to watch. I love the Book Cliffs for my own personal reasons. I drive the new paved road and it just doesn't feel the same, it never will. I hope I am dead before they start developing it for residential use. You know the day is coming, I just don't want to see it. My kids will never know anything different than the paved road to the books. Sad Sad Sad.
 
I wonder about SWF's beef. They sell our wildlife to the highest bidder all the time.

I'm all for drilling our own gas and oil, but if they're just going to sell in on the open world market, how does that help us as a nation?

Eel
 
>I wonder about SWF's beef. They
>sell our wildlife to the
>highest bidder all the time.
>
>
>I'm all for drilling our own
>gas and oil, but if
>they're just going to sell
>in on the open world
>market, how does that help
>us as a nation?
>
>Eel

Great Point! SFW was pushing to make Utah's Federal land all state-owned exactly for the reasons that SITLA used here. Hopefully they will see the light and keep Federal land Federal.

We're prostituting our public land to sell our Natural Resources to Asia and India. It's not worth it.

Once Pandora's Box is opened, we can never shut it again. It's impossible to get that genie back in the bottle once he's out. Terrible day for Sportsmen.

They knew damn-well that it would be met with public outcry or the deal would've been done in the open and not behind closed-doors. (See the San Rafael articles from the last few weeks for proof).


Grizzly

PS. Tristate, please be an adult and respect my wishes that you do not respond to any of my posts. I, in turn, will do you the courtesy of not responding to any of yours. I simply do not wish to converse with you.
 
There is a great price for "progress".
My favorite deer "honey hole" that constantly produced good bucks had a major road improvement about 8 years ago, so rigs could get to a new drill site. The drill hole was eventually capped but the new gravel road remains. Now every sports car and mini-van on earth can drive right out where most wouldn't previously take their truck.
The wildlife like the road even less than I do and have pretty much left. We are now looking for a new "honey hole" but they are becoming very scarce! Kind of makes me want to join a wilderness association.
 
I wouldn't jump on the wilderness band wagon quite yet. I see the commercials of the family with little kids playing in the preserved willderness, and how great life is for them. Well a dad isn't going to play with his young kids more than the very edge of the wilderness. Wilderness blocks out sportsmen, habitat projects, water projects, everyone unless you are in very good shape and can hike 10 plus miles or have horses.

We do need a balance of wilderness and multiple use lands.

Hopefully, they can get the energy needed, without impacting habitat and wildlife too much. I'm sure there will be some negative effects.
 
First of all, you need to get educated on what hydraulic fracturing actually is.
Second, get educated on the reduced footprint and increased environmental protection of today's oil and natural gas producers.
Third, get educated on the economic impact of domestic energy production.

If you're still against it, I would ask two questions:
1. Are you only against domestic energy production if it's in an area you like to recreate in or near?
2. Do you like paying an increased price for virtually EVERY consumer product you use?

If your answer is yes to either question, you're an idiot, and your opinion is invalid.

Is it sad that the human race is ever encroaching on natural areas and resources? Yes it is! Does that mean we should continue to suffer the cost of foreign energy? Maybe we should start a global population control program, so we can limit our encroachment and reduce our overall petroleum consumption, reducing the need to explore new areas. We could start by castrating all the Tards, maybe even a 50% extermination, if we hurry, we could save the books cliffs!
 
ILikeElk,

it seriously sounds like you need to spend some time in an area with heavy drilling (this discussion isn't about fracking, it is about the infrastructure that comes with fracking or drilling).

The oil industry estimates it has created 150,000 jobs in the US each of the last few years. These jobs aren't behind desks. They are on rigs and driving truck to and from well locations, plants, stations, etc...

All these workers/ trucks/ infrastructure hugely affect wildlife. That is not to say that great hunting doesn't take place in areas that are drilled (I just hunted near Farmington, NM this year)... but to say that all those people and all those roads don't negatively affect wildlife puts you squarely in a category of your own description.

Please go read the USA Today article from 8/25 about the NG boom. Feel free to ask me any questions if you don't understand what the asset write-offs of these petrochemical companies mean. It can be quite complicated. You should also take note of the decline in production, demand, profitability, and hiring of these companies. Also note how these large oil fields are now being sold to China Petrochemical among others.

China now owns the oil fields (on American soil) that produce the oil/gas that it sells back to itself at artificially high prices to keep profitability up and drive American oil companies out of business as they struggle to compete.

Please don't be so na?ve to think that production has anything to do with the price of oil (and hence consumer end-products). A quick glance at the price of crude and NG in no way aligns with production numbers over the last several decades. This industry is controlled by a cartel in a world-market and is not representative of free-market capitalism.

I have many, many good friends that work in numerous fields in the (most in Williston, ND) and I know what this boom has done for our economy. I just choose to not be so short-sighted as to sentence our most sacred wild areas to a future of dusty roads, water tanks, and diesel trucks.

There are few roadless areas left as special as the Book Cliffs. There are plenty of places to drill (there were nearly 11,000 producing, but unused, wells in the US by 2011; that number has certainly increased).

Let's use a little discretion. Some things are more important than money.


Grizzly

PS. Tristate, please be an adult and respect my wishes that you do not respond to any of my posts. I, in turn, will do you the courtesy of not responding to any of yours. I simply do not wish to converse with you.
 
I know, I'm a good troll.

I happen to work for one of the largest oil producers in America, I understand quite well the infrastructure needed to drill and complete a well. I also understand what that well site looks like 1, 5, even 30+ years after completion. It is not as bad as the greenies will have you believe, nor does it have serious implications to the health and welfare of the wildlife. I also understand the dynamics involved with interest ownership, and investor relations. Your argument about china "owning" the oil fields is a crock of s***. Do Chinese investors own shares of publicly traded companies that operate on US soil? Probably. This is not a command economy, it is called the free market. Any further "meddling" by china is not a case against domestic energy independence, it is a case against our government's gross failures in foreign policy.

To be fair, I don't agree with drilling of the book cliffs, for two reasons, which I'll share in a minute. However, I will always strongly contest arguments that are made against drilling/production that are false or misleading. Your original post alludes to hydraulic fracturing causing negative impact on the environment, which is strongly misleading, and affects the industry and practice as a whole, not just as it pertains to the book cliffs.

I disagree with drilling out the book cliffs for two reasons, not related to the oil industry. These are the things the Tards should be up in arms over, in my opinion:

1. Your governor signed away public lands behind closed doors, without public input. This happens all too often in an era that I will call post-constitutional politics.

2. Although they will eventually become encroached upon, hopefully not in my lifetime, roadless areas should be a true "last resort."

I know that you (eventually) made the argument for number 2, I just didn't like how you (eventually) arrived to that argument...
 
And I see that you did comment on the closed door politics too, much later in the post. If you stuck to those two arguments, used them in your first post, left fracking and the oil industry out of your post, you'd have been on to something.
 
My opinion is simple. Whether we drill or not....Gas prices are going to rise no matter what and I believe the man in the oval office will make sure of that. Again, this is just my opinion. Leave these amazing wilderness areas alone. Go frack somewhere else.




Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning
conservation...
"The movement for the conservation of wildlife,
and the conservation of all our natural resources,
are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and
method."

"We do not intend that our natural resources shall
be exploited by the few against the interests of the
majority. Our aim is to preserve our natural
resources for the public as a whole, for the
average man and the average woman who make
up the body of the American people."

"It is in our power...to preserve game..and to give
reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the
skill of the hunter,whether he is or is not a man of
means."
 
There's been some good points, and some far fetched lies posted so far about this. I live on the south side of the book cliffs, and I'd dare say I spend as much time out there as anybody, certainly on the south side. Sure seeing a drill rig and gravel road through your honey hole is a bummer, what's worse is when it's made inaccessible by the BLM, with their "wilderness areas". Much of the honey holes I once had I can't get to or hunt anymore because so much of the access on the south side has been closed off. No, I'm not the lazy road hunter you want to think I may be, I put on a ton of miles hiking in places most won't go, my family has mules, and I follow a pack of hounds to places much further than I often wish. So much of our public ground has been closed that even on a mule I can't reach much of the area I would love to hunt again.

I also see a lot of people forgetting that most of the books, already once was oil field with roads to access the sites, but look at it now, it's this "magestic untouched roadless" area. Whether you enter the book cliffs roadless unit from the Sego trail head or the Ten mile Knoll trail head, you are getting in on an old oil field road. Went Ridge and Diamond Ridge both once had roads to access drill sites. Even riding across the face of the roadless you get to the old drill site at the top of Buck canyon. But what remains of these old roads is little more than a good horse trail. So to think that putting in a road now will forever ruin the area is nonsense.

Let's look outside of the "roadless". The places with the most existing oil field activity are often the areas the animals prefer. If you've ever driven the divide road of the book cliffs early in the spring you will know that the wildlife love the green vegetation that the pipeline provides. If you haven't seen this then you likely don't spend enough time on the books for you to even have an opinion on the drilling activity. How about the low country? Nash has always been by far the best winter range, with the most deer, on the side south. It also has the most existing oil field activity, and has for a long time. The deer don't seem to be bothered by it, in fact they often benefit from the roads that are there, as an easier way to travel when we have the winters with deep snow. If we want to complain about habitat being ruined, look at the Nash Wash WMA. The DWR has done an embarrassing job with what once wash a great working cattle ranch as well as great winter range habitat. There used to be lush fields providing food for wildlife, it's little more than dirt flats now. Every year I see fewer deer using this land that the DWR is supposedly using to benefit them. They've spend all kinds of time and money on signs to make sure you know just who is responsible for the lack of habitat they have provided.

There is so much of this unit that has been closed off that it has forced much of the hunting pressure as well as general public use into smaller areas, not only damaging the experience of everyone because of the crowds but also hurting wildlife management techniques.

Much of this area, like the rest of the country, could also see a major benefit from any kind of boost to the economy.

If you're concerned about your public lands, that's great. But as someone who spends 3 days every week on the Books, somewhere or another, overall I am very excited about what the drilling would bring.
 
WOW!...... You guys are starting to worry me! This may be one of the most informative and intelligently debated threads I have seen on MM in years!

I have not hunted the Books since the mid 70's, when it wasn't near as "famous" as it is today.

As a non-resident, unlikely to ever hunt it again, I have no dog in this fight, but I can sympathize with those of you concerned with the area, and it's ability to withstand future drilling.

Hopefully, all available precaution will be taken to lessen the impact to this special place.

"If you get upset or offended by ANY website forum
post.....especially mine, you need serious
intervention!"
 
ILikeElk,

I never called out fracking as worse than other forms of drilling. I understand the media bs on the whole deal. As soon as it was pertinent, I made the point that fracking wasn't the issue, it was the infrastructure that I am worried about. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

It seems you and I agree more than disagree. Good talking to ya.

(PS, read the article I mentioned. China has literally bought specific oil fields and they are mentioned by name. I consider that a threat from China, not oil companies, but it warranted being mentioned since macro-economics were being discussed.)

Grizzly

PS. Tristate, please be an adult and respect my wishes that you do not respond to any of my posts. I, in turn, will do you the courtesy of not responding to any of yours. I simply do not wish to converse with you.
 
Don't worry animals love to hang out in the oil patch.
downrightmean176-1.jpg
 
I'm astounded by the whining by people who claim they can't access roadless lands. I guess you are the guys I'm trying to avoid as I walk into roadless country. Sorry to you guys who can appreciate what was once wild and is lost forever.
 
Ofcoarse we all appreciate what was once wild.

When someone says "I walk into roadless country" ofcoarse they left from a house warmed by hydocarbons, drove in a car powered by gas to the edge of "roadless country" then walked in on boots with soles made from oil.

Every single drop will be used by every single one of us. There is just no way around it.

So enjoy it while you can.
 
RockyDog, how much time have you spent on the south side of the Books? I will guarantee that I could give you places that I used to access by road on an atv before I started hiking, that you wouldn't be able to get to in a day and hunt it. Maybe where you hunt it's different, but the areas they have closed down around here may as well have been wiped off the earth because nobody will ever use them the way it is now.
 
So are you saying if you can't get to it and hunt in a day and be back home the country may as well be wiped off the face of the earth. Doesn't sound like you give a rip about habitat or elk, just your comfort and ease. Don't worry there are plenty of average guys who go there and don't find it the huge inconvenience an ATV rider would.
 
Points to take home.

Roads associated with energy development are good for wildlife.
More pipelines = more forage.
If I can't hike to an area and hunt it the same day it is inaccessable.
 
I hunted the roadless area on foot (was packed in and out) and have spent time hiking in there. Never had to see or hear a truck and it was a huge part of the enjoyment for me. I assume we are not talking about the roadless area. If we are willing to ruin a place like the roadless area of the Book Cliffs there is little hope for wildlife or wild places in the future. If you are willing to support drilling and road construction in the roadless area there is no way you can call yourself a conservationist or even sportsman - you can still be a hunter I guess. I cannot even begin to imagine how someone who has spent time there could begin to accept the idea of building roads or drilling in that area. I have not been in the Bitter Creek area so cannot comment on that area.
 
Iowan, If there is oil under the Books it will get drilled up. There is no way to stop it no matter what you or anybody does to try and stop it.

The best we can do as hunters is try to get our share of the bounty
and use it to off set the damages.

Book Cliffs is just the tip of the iceberg as far as the next big round of drilling on public land that you are going to see,,,soon.
 
"...but the areas they have closed down around here may as well have been wiped off the earth because nobody will ever use them the way it is now."

A bit dramatic don't you think??
 
First off I can easily tell that most of you don't have much knowledge of the books. But that's normal, everybody thinks they know the books because a friend of a friend once was there. You don't have much of a clue as to the places I hunt and spend my time, nor the way I do it. I put in far more work than the majority of the people that hunt that mountain so if you think you know something I don't you're kidding yourself. But yeah I see it as a disadvantage when I can't hunt a place in a day. I don't wanna have to take a week off work every time I wanna go hunt. I've set foot on far more of the south side of the books than any of you ever will, so it's pretty funny when you think that it's that I'm too lazy so you should decide what happens to the place because you know best from your keyboard. I was slow to respond because I just got back from five days on the books, were any of you out there? I guess saying that it may as well be wiped off the earth was dramatic, but how many people have been to the end of the old road up Floy? Crescent? Thompson? Left hand Tusher? Nash? Cottonwood? Horse? Diamond?... Yeah these canyons had roads into the heads, but how much of that country is being used today? Most people only know of the roads on the benches in this stuff. To the guy who thinks the pipeline doesn't help the wildlife out there? Maybe you should spend some time there to see... If you wanna talk about how oil field has changed or hindered your areas, then yes you are probably all right, but if you wanna talk about what's happening on the books then you better get out there and do your homework before you think you have the almighty answer for the place.
 
All this becomes easier and easier to do because people refuse to put a value on the resource they proclaim they own. I have warned yall of this since I have been on here and no one will listen. Everybody here wants to complain about the future of the utilization of the resource they think belongs to them but then they don't think they should ever have to pay for what its worth. So the mule deer suffers a little more.
 
How about requiring the oil companies to pay for a certain amount of range improvements in exchange for having access to the oil. I know the "all natural" guys will think that is preposterous, but it could be a way to fund some of the work that needs done.
 
Why do the oil companies need to do "range improvements"?

Why did the DWR not do any range improvements?

Why does anyone feel it necessary to help a worthless animal?



I can't help but laugh when I watch all this. Yall have all painted yourself into a corner with this. I have sat and watched people threaten each other with violence on these forums. I have seen threads fighting over trail cameras, and campers, and deer mounts. You act as if you have this resource that is more valuable than gold but then no one wants to pay the price of gold for it. So guess what when the time comes that the choice is between real things worth money and your resource that you have purposely kept almost worthless. Who cares about a mule deer that's worth even less than a bucket of poop. Certainly not a drilling company and your own state that's about to make billions of dollars a year. I know you're all going to talk about the value of your hunting heritage now. Well guess what hunting heritage doesn't feed families year round, or pay for peoples vices, or stuff the pockets of politicians. Oil and gas does.
 
Getting concessions from the oil companies is the only way to do business. Requiring rehabilitation already occurs in most instances. Those who value places such as the Book Cliffs need to keep up on these issues and make sure the oil companies comply with rehabilitation requirements. Often this work is not done for a few years, so it seems the oil companies are shirking their responsibilities. Some of you may be surprised to learn that many oil companies are very willing to carry out rehab projects as well as help monetarily for projects to mitigate impacts in other areas. The group I am with just did a fencing project in SW Wy where we fenced off a desert spring from the feral horses in the area. Deer, elk, and antelope can still access the water, but the horses cannot. We had more guys there that work for a major oil company than we had of our own guys!

It's not all gloom and doom with oil and gas exploration. Yes, it sucks to lose your hunting spot to a new road. The fact is that oil is going to be drilled for if it's there. Absolutely going to happen at some point in time. Let your voices be heard and have a say-so in how it's done. No, I don't work for an oil company. I'm just here to say that it's been my experience that these companies are usually more than willing to work with sportsmen's groups to mitigate damage.
 
Thank goodness some of the wildlife conservation groups SFW, RMEF, etc.) are at least going to put up a fight. In my opinion some places should be off limits to drilling and the Books Cliffs, Little Creek area is one of those places. I was dreaming of the day my brother would draw his elk tag there or maybe even my kids some day - I have no interest in going back there to see roads, well heads, and pumps. Having experienced it before the damage I do not think I could stomach it. I really feel bad for the next generation that will never know what it once was.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-13
>AT 11:45?AM (MST)

>
>You want to see actual environmental
>harm from fracking read this:
>
>
>http://www.startribune.com/local/177697161.html
>
>It's happening miles away from the
>well fields, in some of
>the best trout and whitetail
>habitat in the country.

Sorry but that mining and mining companies not following regulations. How is it Frackings fault. Reading the actual the article I fail to see where has been any major violations at all and no real evidence that it has been an issue yet. The article points to the "potential". And a concern about how to handle waste. It also is interesting that I have never seen a company that does not continue to reuse the sand. It is caught and easily reused.
 
I see an article today that suggests they are backing off for a few years to look at it a little closer. Sounds like all sides are trying to work together to find a good solution. Hopefully that will happen.
 

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