Caliber for elk/mule deer

[buglemuley]

I’m in the market for a new gun. Exploring a bunch of options.. I don’t reload so I’ll be shooting factory ammo. Leaning towards a .300 win mag but am open to others. Mainly for mule deer and elk but could see the occasional antelope hunt. Is a .300 win mag too big? Other calibers you would consider or reasons to stay away from a 300?

 

[elkantlers]

300WM is a great round. It would be capable of anything you want to hunt.

 

[heywouldya]

The 300WM is a great caliber. Get a muzzle break, or prepare yourself for a heck of a kick. I'm sure that doesn't apply to all manufacturer's, but the ones I've shot, I didn't enjoy.
I rally like my .270 WBY and just bought a .28 Nosler i really like (with a break). Honestly, we own several .270's, and that is a great all around caliber.
Good luck on your new rifle!!

 

[257Tony]

The cartridge you choose for your new rifle is not really that important. There's dozens that would do what you need. I'd buy one that you can afford to shoot a good amount, confidence in your rifle is super important when it comes time to make the shot.

 

[Tmac]

300 WM will certainly do the job. If you are seeking magnums, a 7mm Rem Mag would give similar results with a little less recoil. 6.5PRC would be another magnum like performer with moderate recoil. For me a 7mm-08 checks a lot of boxes. As would most 6.5’s, 270’s, 7mm’s.

 

[gundog2]

300 WM has heavy recoil even with muzzle brake. The muzzle brakes produce obnoxious noise for yourself and peeps around you. If you have to ask if it is “too big”, then it might be more than you really want. It depends on your level of experience and tolerance. Even if you can handle it now, you might grow wary of the beast in years to come.

Although I have been shooting belted magnums for many years (7 mm Rem Mag, .300 Weatherby Mag, 300 Win Mag, and .338 Win Mag), I would probably shy away from belted magnums (anything with .375 H&H mag parent case). The 7 mm Rem Mag is a good alternative to the .300 Win Mag, but it is also a belted magnum. Belted magnums create some issues with head spacing and reloading. It is not really a big deal for most people, even if they do reload, but I think some experts would say that the belt is unnecessary in modern rifles. It is just a legacy of the .375 H&H parent case. With all that said, I bought a new 7 mm Rem Mag a couple years ago and it is my favorite gun ever, mostly because it is the best quality gun I ever owned and the recoil not too bad. The 7 mm Rem Mag has adequate knock-down power for elk out to any range that I would shoot.

Classic alternatives to the magnums would include .30-06 Springfield, .308 Win, 7mm-08 or .270 Win. I’d like to have a high-quality gun chambered for the .270 Win, but it would be hard to justify getting another one in addition to all the other guns that I already have. Some newer cartridges that are worth serious consideration would include 6.8 Western, 7mm PRC, and maybe even the .338 Weatherby RPM. The latter cartridges were designed with the best available modern technologies in mind, but it might be hard to find ammo for some of these new chambers.

Any of the calibers mentioned above will be great if you find the right gun. I would be more concerned about getting a good quality gun and scope than I would be worried about any of these calibers.

 

[Togwotee]

The 300 Win Mag is a great all-around cartridge, especially if you want to use factory loads. you couldn't go wrong with it.

Recoil isn't a problem , I have a Webernick 300 win mag that weighs 7 1/4 lbs. field ready with no brake I've killed a lot of game with. my wife uses it these days and she's a smaller gal. anyone can handle the recoil of a 300 if they cowboy up a little.

 

[Chesterwyo]

270 or a 30-06 would be the easy button.

 

[heywouldya]

The 300 Win Mag is a great all-around cartridge, especially if you want to use factory loads. you couldn't go wrong with it.

Recoil isn't a problem , I have a Webernick 300 win mag that weighs 7 1/4 lbs. field ready with no brake I've killed a lot of game with. my wife uses it these days and she's a smaller gal. anyone can handle the recoil of a 300 if they cowboy up a little.

I'll sell you my 300 win, it'll rattle your molars cowboy. Like I said, not all manufacturers are the same, some rifles have less recoil, but mine flat out kicks!

 

[Togwotee]

They kick, not going to argue that. but it's nothing you can't manage if you want to. I don't shoot the lightweight magnums from the bench any more than I have to and when hunting I don't even notice it.

the only gun I ever got rid of over recoil was a custom 338 RUM I had built. every time you pulled the trigger it was like pizzing off Mike Tyson. I didn't need that kind of power so the punishment wasn't worth it.

 

[Gunnihunter]

I like the 300 WM, 180 or 200 gr. for elk and 150 gr. for deer and antelope. I like the flatter 150 gr. for antelope. I never notice the recoil when making a shot on an animal, practice shooting is another story. I won’t hunt elk with anything else.

 

[littlebighorn]

I would ask how much shooting experience you have and how sensitive are you to recoil. Several on here are telling you 300 WM recoil is no big deal, but that's to them and not you.
I once hunted antelope with a guy who bought a brand new 300 WM for the trip. We went out to sight in, and handed him his gun empty but told him it was loaded. He settled in and jerked the trigger like he was setting the hook on a big fish, anticipating the recoil. It was clear that the 300 WM recoil was a problem for him.
If you are not very experienced, I'd recommend a cartridge that is somewhat less biting, again as others have mentioned.
There are plenty of 300 WM owners who shoot it just fine, and it is a great cartridge if you can shoot it well. However, it's way more expensive to feed and you are less likely to practice with it, so at least keep that in mind.
I've been shooting/hunting for over 50 years but when I'm headed to the range, I seldom reach for the 300.
That's just me.

 

[sambo3006]

I think 7mm cartridges recoil noticeably less than their .30 cal counterparts, and would not hesitate to hunt elk with one. I would look at a 7mm Rem mag or a 7mm PRC, or even a .280 Ackley now that factory ammo is available for it. If you want to match the ballistic coefficient of a 7mm bullet in a .30 cal, bullet weight and also recoil goes up by a fair amount.
Or, as previously suggested, you could go with a .270 or .30-06 and kill game just the same with reasonable recoil.

 

[NevadaSheep]

What does a 30 cal accomplish ballistically that a 7mm doesn’t? Nothing, and your hit rate will be improved with a 7mm given the more mild recoil with the 7mm (7 PRC would be my choice of the 7s).

Furthermore, a 7PRC doesn’t get you too much more than a 6.5PRC, with the right bullet selection I should say. A 147 ELDM out of a 6.5 PRC is the easy button for western big game in my opinion. Arguably the best killing bullet on the market packaged in a short action with limited recoil (improved hit rates) and terminal velocity out to 900 yards or more at Utah elevations.

The fact is, 10 years ago and earlier when bullet designs were limited (and poor) and the proliferation of turret scopes and MOA range finders hadn’t occurred yet, large magnums made some sense. Today however with excellent bullet choices (bullet technology has come along way!), I’d suggest moving down in caliber size. Any ELDM bullet will kill when properly placed and maintaining speeds over 1900 fps or so. Play around with ballistic apps I think you’ll be surprised.

I recently switched from a 7PRC to a 6CM, launching 108 ELDMs at 3100 fps. Zero recoil and terminal velocity (2000 fps) out to 900+ yards. Ridiculously easy to shot and can spot shots the whole way to impact. One shot, bang flops on two cow elk last year at 631” and 788” yards respectively.

Whatever caliber you choose, pair with ELD M(urder) bullets.

 

[Togwotee]

What would be the advantage on the M as a hunting bullet? you're giving up the thicker tapered jacket and interlock ring I don't see how that's good. at extreme range it might be ok but at closer ranges the ELD-X is too explosive already.

 

[NevadaSheep]

Animals die because their brain shuts down. Either trauma to the central nervous system (head/neck/spine) OR they loose enough blood (lung/heart/artery). I don’t want an exit. I want that bullet to fragment and cut as much tissue as possible. That is it. If a bullet exits then you are keeping some of it together. Less tissue gets cut. The best case is the most trauma possible, to turn the chest cavity into jelly soup. Choosing a bullet to optimize bullet retention minimizes the possibility of maximum trauma. The importance of using such “match” style bullets (ELDM) increases at longer ranges.

The ELDM has found a sweet spot of getting 4-5 inches of penetration before the fragmentation occurs. This results in both a large and long wound channel and opens up a better range of angles available for the shot. This also helps with shoulder shots. A 108 ELDM will get through a shoulder and destruct into the chest cavity on exit from the shoulder. A other destructive bullets such as a Berger on the other hand tend to begin destructing on impact and thus lose some depth to the wound channel.

ELDXs offer similar characteristics to the the ELDM and are a great bullet. For whatever reason though, my experience has been the ELDMs are just more consistent. The ELDM also offers a meaningfully improvement in ballistic coefficients over the ELDX, and they just plain shot better.

 

[Togwotee]

Assuming your shot placement is perfect I get what you're saying. but how realistic is that.

From shooting and seeing probably 200 elk shot I have concluded the Nosler Partition gives optimum bullet performance on impact. if they could duplicate that in a high BC bullet you'd have the perfect bullet for any shot.

I guess until then we'll have to compromise and pick a bullet that works best for your expected shots. I'm not sure what that is so for now I carry Partitions and VLD's.

 

[NevadaSheep]

Probably merits to both our views here but my experience is the opposite. My experience is that properly constructed match bullets act as insurance against poor shot placement. If shot placement is poor, the purpose of the bullet doesn’t change. I’m still looking for the maximum amount of trauma as possible to either impact the central nervous system or limit blood supply. In fact, this is even more important for me in this scenario then when the shot is good. A traditional, retention-oriented bullet works well when the shot is good, but with a limited wound channel you are reducing the margin of error in your shot placement.

There are very few angles I wouldn’t feel comfortable taking on an elk with an ELDM. I know there will be a large and long path of destruction. I wouldn’t go that far with other match bullets however such as the Barnes Matchburners or Berger Hybrids. Again, they self destruct too rapidly and the wound channels aren’t long enough to my liking on certain angles. They are Ok for deer sized game and down but for elk I prefer the additional inches of penetration before shedding occurs.

 

[NevadaSheep]

Probably merits to both our views here but my experience is the opposite. My experience is that properly constructed match bullets act as insurance against poor shot placement. If shot placement is poor, the purpose of the bullet doesn’t change. I’m still looking for the maximum amount of trauma as possible to either impact the central nervous system or limit blood supply. In fact, this is even more important for me in this scenario then when the shot is good. A traditional, retention-oriented bullet works well when the shot is good, but with a limited wound channel you are reducing the margin of error in your shot placement.

There are very few angles I wouldn’t feel comfortable taking on an elk with an ELDM. I know there will be a large and long path of destruction. I wouldn’t go that far with other match bullets however such as the Barnes Matchburners or Berger Hybrids. Again, they self destruct too rapidly and the wound channels aren’t long enough to my liking on certain angles. They are Ok for deer sized game and down but for elk I prefer the additional inches of penetration before shedding occurs.

 

[Togwotee]

But if you have a quartering shot, or hit bone I want a bullet that will keep going. I can't say the ELD-M won't do that but I've seen the SST fail and it's a better constructed bullet that the ELD-M , very similar to the ELD-X. it just sounds risky.

It's hard to say, everyone has their idea of best bullet performance, and it depends on so many factors. I had high hopes the Accubond LR would be the bullet but it's a big dud. I killed two bulls with the Barnes X bullet and I won't use them again. too little shock.

I've only taken one bull with the Beger VLD and I was impressed, but it was the perfect application for that particular bullet . a nice bull at 735 yards through one scapula and out the off side. took a couple steps and fell dead. but at 100 yards it might have been a grenade.

I'm playing with the trophy bonded tipped boattail similar to a partition in construction. seems like it could be perfect but the accuracy isn't up to par so far and I'm not sure I'll get it there.

 

[Chesterwyo]

All this talk about killing bullets, not one mention of the original Nosler Accubond, Barnes TTSX, Barnes LRX, Nosler E-Tip, Federal Edge TLR, Hammer. Hornady Interbond. Or for the guys who aren’t shooting long range, Hornady Interlock, Nosler Partition, Nosler Ballistic Tip, Federal Fusion.

 

[mtmuley]

Probably merits to both our views here but my experience is the opposite. My experience is that properly constructed match bullets act as insurance against poor shot placement. If shot placement is poor, the purpose of the bullet doesn’t change. I’m still looking for the maximum amount of trauma as possible to either impact the central nervous system or limit blood supply. In fact, this is even more important for me in this scenario then when the shot is good. A traditional, retention-oriented bullet works well when the shot is good, but with a limited wound channel you are reducing the margin of error in your shot placement.

There are very few angles I wouldn’t feel comfortable taking on an elk with an ELDM. I know there will be a large and long path of destruction. I wouldn’t go that far with other match bullets however such as the Barnes Matchburners or Berger Hybrids. Again, they self destruct too rapidly and the wound channels aren’t long enough to my liking on certain angles. They are Ok for deer sized game and down but for elk I prefer the additional inches of penetration before shedding occurs.

Hey, a double shot. Just like you need with Hornady bullets. mtmuley

 

[Togwotee]

All this talk about killing bullets, not one mention of the original Nosler Accubond, Barnes TTSX, Barnes LRX, Nosler E-Tip, Federal Edge TLR, Hammer. Hornady Interbond. Or for the guys who aren’t shooting long range, Hornady Interlock, Nosler Partition, Nosler Ballistic Tip, Federal Fusion.

Probably some aren't mentioned because they're not great long range bullets. I'm not impressed with the solid coper bullets of any brand , it's like long range archery hunting you just poke a hole in them. the original Accubonds are good, but too low of a BC and bullet weights are lacking in some calibers. in my opinion for long range there's Berger and Hornady then there's the me too stuff.

For shots out to 500 yards I agree with you. the Partition, interlock , Accubond and a few others are fantastic. no need to look any farther.

 

[Bwht4x4]

I'd go with a 280 ai or a 7mm PRC. I love my 280 ai and my other rifles are just collecting dust now.

 

[marley]

All I’ve seen with ELDXs is bang flops anywhere from 325 yards to 915. My deer this last year at 915 yards ALMOST made it out of his bed. It was close but he stayed there

 

[Bluehair]

All this talk about killing bullets, not one mention of the original Nosler Accubond, Barnes TTSX, Barnes LRX, Nosler E-Tip, Federal Edge TLR, Hammer. Hornady Interbond. Or for the guys who aren’t shooting long range, Hornady Interlock, Nosler Partition, Nosler Ballistic Tip, Federal Fusion.

Or Core Lok’s.

I also like a bullet that frag’s.

 

[marley]

I just totaled it up and between me, my kids, and my friends we have shot 37 animals with a 143 grain ELDX from either a 6.5 SST or a 6.5-06 AI at ranges from 5 yards on a mountain goat to 915 yards on a deer and several elk in between and we have used a total of 37 bullets. We have never had to shoot an animal twice. For now they are my go to bullets for hunting. Helps that they are super accurate in all of our rifles too.

 

[NevadaSheep]

Marley knows the way! I genuinely believe there would be a whole lot less wounded game and recovery loss if more people opted for lower recoiling rounds (such as 6.5s, 25s, and 6s) with improved bullet selection. It’s an unarguable fact that hit rates increase as muzzle recoil decreases. Bullet technology advancements have made shooting such rounds advantageous over larger magnums

 

[NevadaSheep]

And I’m saying this out of experience, not speculation. My career is thankfully related to the hunting industry in that I am able to be apart of 10+ kills a year. My experience is similar to Marley. A 6.5 w/ a good match style bullet is the easy button for long range, western big game hunting.

There is a reason 6s, 25s and 6.5s dominate long range shooting competitions.. the 6 is referred to as the “cheat round” and was effectively banned for this reason with the new power factor rules. Combine this inherent shootability and accuracy with new bullet technologies for killing and you have all you need for any game animal in North America.

To the original poster and question. Get what you want first and foremost. My bias is towards what I’ve laid out above but I fully acknowledge there are plenty of people that shot magnums well.

 

[Togwotee]

All well and good when shot placement is perfect. it's when it's not that's when the bigger stuff and better constructed bullets shine.

 

[NevadaSheep]

Can you explain how bigger stuff and “better constructed bullets” outperforms when placement isn’t perfect?

Starting with “bigger stuff”, I’ve personally never witnessed a kill where I believed the bullet size to have made up for poor placement. Maybe that’s just unique to my experiences though and you’ve seen plenty of examples of it. I’m genuinely curious. My experience is whether you are using a 6mm or a 300 Mag, poor placement results in a slower kill. I see animals annually soak up 3, 4, 5+ rounds from magnums and imperfect shot placement. Caliber size doesn’t seem to make much a difference in the amount of bullets required in my experiences.

Regarding “better constructed”. A 6.5 ELDM or ELDX, assuming an impact velocity of 1950 fps or more (900 ish yards at Utah elevation), will penetrate enough to reach the chest cavity from nearly any angle on a mature bull elk. Related, the wound channel will be more violent and pronounced. Animals die by suffocation from lack of oxygenated blood or a break central nervous system. A proper match bullet does this best at long ranges where impact velocities are low. I’m guessing not all 37 of Marley’s kills had perfect shot placement..

I’ll say one thing, if I personally had to choose between getting shot in the guts by an Accubond or by an ELDM, it’d definetly be an Accubond. If anyone here would choose differently, you must want to die

I’m done. I promise I’ll stop dragging on the subject after this post. Just passionate about it as I’ve seen the results for me and my colleagues

 

[marley]

I agree but prioritizing shot placement is number one. If someone is shooting a caliber that makes them flinch it doesn't matter what bullet they're flinging out there. Accuracy with a smaller, well constructed bullet trumps an inaccurate giant slug every time imo.

 

[marley]

I also like Bergers and use them in my 300 NMI but years ago I had a 28 nosler and was using 195 grain bergers in it. I don't know if its just that particular bullet but I had some issues with it. my son shot a deer at 560 yards and it full on splattered on his front shoulder. I'm talking 3" of total penetration and required a follow up shot. That same year I shot on antelope with it at 675 yards and it pencil holed right through him. He walked around like he was fine until I hit him again in the high shoulder which made a 6 inch hole in the opposite side. The next year I shot an elk at long range, still within the minimal velocity range, and it again penciled through. He died from that but it took awhile and no way to get a 2nd shot in him. After that I was done with 195 berger. Way too many inconsistencies for me. I heard others have the same issues with that particular bullet. I have not had the same issues with the 245 grain bergers or the 215s but my sample size is much smaller than the ELDXs.

 

[NevadaSheep]

I agree but prioritizing shot placement is number one. If someone is shooting a caliber that makes them flinch it doesn't matter what bullet they're flinging out there. Accuracy with a smaller, well constructed bullet trumps an inaccurate giant slug every time imo.

Marley preaching the truth!

 

[Togwotee]

So you're saying bullet weight, velocity and construction don't matter, that's denying physics.

Perfect shot placement with most any bullet will kill let's agree on that. but you're trying to say a 700 yard shot on an elk with a 6.5 or a 300 mag or a 338 Lapua is the same thing if the shot isn't perfect. that's nonsense. if your theory is BB guns kick less so anyone can always make a perfect shot that's nonsense as well.

Let's use a realistic hypothetical that happens too often. a cross canyon shot at a bull, wind blowing a little, quartering away, not a perfect rest, probably shouldn't take the shot but like 90% of guys you do. so your shot isn't perfect but pretty good you manage to hit behind the shoulder but it's a little farther back than ideal and you may have punched some stuff you'd rather not. are you going to tell me my 300 mag with a 210 bullet has no advantage over your 6.5? what about the guy with a 338 Lapua? no difference?

If a perfect world where nobody takes a shot they shouldn't, the wind never blows, we're all trained snipers, and buck fever doesn't exist there would not be a need for larger calibers. and Taylor Swift would be with me and not that Travis jerk.

 

[mtmuley]

I just totaled it up and between me, my kids, and my friends we have shot 37 animals with a 143 grain ELDX from either a 6.5 SST or a 6.5-06 AI at ranges from 5 yards on a mountain goat to 915 yards on a deer and several elk in between and we have used a total of 37 bullets. We have never had to shoot an animal twice. For now they are my go to bullets for hunting. Helps that they are super accurate in all of our rifles too.

Taking a 6.5 ELDX on that bear hunt? mtmuley

 

[NevadaSheep]

I am saying bullet weight has little importance, yes. It increases your “energy” number but energy is a meaningless metric in regard to killing. What matters when killing is 1) placement, 2) velocity, and 3) bullet construction. That’s been my whole argument.

And to your scenario, absolutely YES I would much rather have a 6.5 with a match bullet than a 300 with a mono bullet (or any really bullet to be honest). Here’s why:

First off and given the much milder recoil, I’ve probably practiced with the 6.5 much more. I’ve learned to call wind, I’ve proved out my drop, I’m all in all better prepared to make a wind call given the increased practice attainable from smaller cartridges. It’s undeniably easier and cheaper to practice with smaller rounds. Second, the gun is inherently more accurate as there is far less recoil at standard mountain rifle weights. Third and assuming I still hit a bit far back even with an improved hit rate, I’d much rather have the extra insurance of a ELDM in maximizing the damage at low impact velocities and maximing the diameter of the wound cavity. An 147 ELDM will create a larger wound channel than a 200+ grain mono at longer range impact velocities. That’s undeniable. Again if you had to choose between getting shot with a Accubond or ELDX, what would you chose to maximize your chances of living? I would hope the Accubond! Fourth, im going to be able to spot my impact through the scope (given limited recoil) and make a much much quicker adjustment to my windage hold and get a follow-up shot off. I’ll have a follow up round in that elk (with my adjusted wind hold) while the guy with the 338 lapua is still trying to re acquire the target, oblivious to where he hit and how to adjust his hold.

In your scenario, yes, the 6.5 has a HUGE advantage over a 338 lapua.

Again, to me it has virtually everything to do with impact velocity and bullet construction and little to nothing to do with caliber choice.

 

[NevadaSheep]

Taking a 6.5 ELDX on that bear hunt? mtmuley

It’d be a good choice honestly. Lots of dudes killing them with 6.5s and 7s up there. Saw below on Rokslide recently, as well as a couple brown bear kills with 223s using match bullets…

 

[marley]

Taking a 6.5 ELDX on that bear hunt? mtmuley

probably do just fine put in the right spot
But probably not smart on something that can kill me back. I’m not stuck to one caliber or one bullet like some seem to be . In fact, I don’t think the ideal bullet has been invented yet. But obviously the thicker the animal, the tougher the hide, requires a different bullet and velocity. My kids are all small in stature and can’t handle my 300 Norma. I think my 300 is a better elk gun than my 6.5 SST, but I know that my kids are going to put that bullet where it needs to be because they can handle it. Which is the whole point of the original post

 

[marley]

To say that any animal shot with a Hornady bullet needs to be shot twice is just a plain stupid comment or a naive one

 

[mtmuley]

It’d be a good choice honestly. Lots of dudes killing them with 6.5s and 7s up there. Saw below on Rokslide recently, as well as a couple brown bear kills with 223s using match bullets…

View attachment 146538

Rokslide. Of course. mtmuley

 

[mtmuley]

To say that any animal shot with a Hornady bullet needs to be shot twice is just a plain stupid comment or a naive one

Kidding about the 6.5 ELDX for bear. But, I wouldn't use any Hornady bullet for killing. I'm not stupid or naive. Everyone has different ideas of what they want a bullet to do. Frangibles aren't for me. Good luck on that hunt. mtmuley

 

[marley]

Kidding about the 6.5 ELDX for bear. But, I wouldn't use any Hornady bullet for killing. I'm not stupid or naive. Everyone has different ideas of what they want a bullet to do. Frangibles aren't for me. Good luck on that hunt. mtmuley

I’m not saying everybody has to like them or use them. I’m only saying that the 37 animals I’ve seen hit with one ELDX Would disagree with your comment about every animal needing to be hit twice with a Hornady.

 

[mtmuley]

I’m not saying everybody has to like them or use them. I’m only saying that the 37 animals I’ve seen hit with one ELDX Would disagree with your comment about every animal needing to be hit twice with a Hornady.

I don't remember saying an animal needed hit twice with a Hornady. I have killed over 37 animals personally with another bullet. Twice that I think. Doesn't mean much. mtmuley

 

[marley]

I don't remember saying an animal needed hit twice with a Hornady. I have killed over 37 animals personally with another bullet. Twice that I think. Doesn't mean much. mtmuley

Scroll up it’s in this thread

 

[mtmuley]

Scroll up it’s in this thread

Yeah. I found it. Don't take things so seriously. Might have been in jest. I'm sure the ELD line is awesome. Just not for everyone. mtmuley

 

[NevadaSheep]

I’m probably close to Marley’s number between my myself, freinds and clients with ELDX and ELDMs and have similar results. Give them a try, they aren’t your old school fragmenting bullet like some of the early designs. They’ve hit a sweet spot.

We craved larger and larger calibers to offset poor bullet design for a long time. Times have changed. We got some great options now in bullet design. My preference is the Hornadys as I feel they’ve hit the sweet spot of core retention and jacket shedding but Sierra, DTAC and certain Berger and Barnes models such as the Hybrid Target and MatchBurners, respectively, can work well in certain caliber applications and distances.

 

[marley]

I built the 6.5 SST for my kids and it quickly became my favorite rifle. I still love the big mags though too. I burned up my 28 Nosler and my 300 Rum. Rebarreled the 28 and sold it. I’m now rebarreling the 300 RUM but changing it to a 7 PRC because it was ballistically almost identical to my 300 NMI but more recoil, more powder and shorter brass life. We’ll see how my kids do with the 7 PRC but if I catch them flinching it’s back to the 6.5 for them.

 

[Togwotee]

I'm not sure which I disagree most with, that energy doesn't matter or that only explosive bullets are any good.

I guess any rifle .277 and larger should be melted down and the Nosler partition is a mistake that never should have happened. this seems to be going nowhere I give up.

 

[NevadaSheep]

I'm not sure which I disagree most with, that energy doesn't matter or that only explosive bullets are any good.

I guess any rifle .277 and larger should be melted down and the Nosler partition is a mistake that never should have happened. this seems to be going nowhere I give up.

So you wholeheartedly disagree with my response to your scenario question? All 4 points I laid out you disagree with?

Again, if you can share experiences where a larger caliber or increased “energy” helped offset poor shot placement, I’m all ears. Or better yet, if you can educate me on how that “energy” number printed on a box of ammo leads to any meaningful killing metric, I’m all ears there as well. I have no idea what “energy” means in regard to killing though. My experience is again, is placement good, is the bullet impacting at a velocity high enough to perform (upset), and is the bullet inherently designed to upset adequately and create the proper depth and breadth of wound channel.

I’m not saying magnums are bad, I know people that shot them darn well. However, I believe that for me, along with the vast majority of western big game hunters, we are better suited with smaller calibers, especially when distances get stretched (500 - 700 yards plus or minus) and our margin of error is reduced on wind calls, clean execution, and spotting impacts. Related, bullets with some shedding to them perform better at lower impact velocities than monos.

 

[yotebuster17]

A lot of good points on here, but what everyone is forgetting is wind. There’s no replacement for HEAVY high BC bullets when working with wind. Elevation can be corrected for 100% of the time with a little time, but wind can only be estimated, even with a wind meter. A .284 195gr moving at 3150 is going to give you significantly more leeway on your wind call then a 6.5 143gr moving at the same speed. Same way a 300gr .338 cal at same speed will trump the .284 195.

 

[NevadaSheep]

A lot of good points on here, but what everyone is forgetting is wind. There’s no replacement for HEAVY high BC bullets when working with wind. Elevation can be corrected for 100% of the time with a little time, but wind can only be estimated, even with a wind meter. A .284 195gr moving at 3150 is going to give you significantly more leeway on your wind call then a 6.5 143gr moving at the same speed. Same way a 300gr .338 cal at same speed will trump the .284 195.

Not forgetting it and not necessarily fact. Again, it all comes back to bullet choice. A 147 ELDM out of a 6.5 PRC has a higher ballistic coefficient than a 210 grain accubond out of a 300 PRC. In other words, it’s gonna buck the wind better… Put a higher BC ELDM from that same PRC and that argument is valid.

 

[yotebuster17]

Not forgetting it and not necessarily fact. Again, it all comes back to bullet choice. A 147 ELDM out of a 6.5 PRC has a higher ballistic coefficient than a 210 grain accubond out of a 300 PRC. In other words, it’s gonna buck the wind better… Put a higher BC ELDM from that same PRC and that argument is valid.

Did I use an accubond as any of my scenarios? No. Because they’re garbage and the BC’s suck. So again, if you use the heaviest for caliber Berger or Hornady in that respective caliber and launch them all at the same speed, wind drift goes down as you go up in weight. There’s not way around that and no denying it. The only argument for using a smaller caliber at said velocity would be recoil. Muzzlebreaks make it possible for me to watch impact with my .28 Nosler with 195’s the same as your 6.5 with 143’s, so my money is on the one with less wind drift.

 

[NevadaSheep]

You didn’t specify heaviest for caliber for Hornady or Berger nor did you use heaviest for caliber in your example.

I’m envious though. I can spot shots from a 28 Nosler with a break from a bench, but put me in field positions (shooting off a backpack with a less than perfect body alignment) and I generally can’t. My opinion is wind can get you at long range whether you are running a 6, 6.5, 7 or even a 300. The only way to minimize it is practice. A marginal increase in BC doesn’t offset practice calling wind in real shooting scenarios in my experience with hunters.

Again, I’ve stated there are plenty of guys that are great shots and magnums work well for them. If you can spot shots, practice in scale to get good at calling wind, and execute a proper shot execution with a mountain rifle weight 28 nosler, that’s a bad ass skill you should be proud of. More power to you and I’m envious. I do however firmly believe that myself, and the majority of people out there, would be better suited with a 6 or 6.5s though. I experience it first hand every fall. Are there outliers like yourself? 100%.

I should note that my first custom rifle was a 28 Nosler. Still have, love and practice with that rifle. My killing rifle though is currently a 6CM. Running it with a 22.5” barrel, Scythe-Ti surpressor, and GA Precision’s 109 ELDMs in Lapua brass at just under 3100 fps. For me personally, I’m much more effective with it at realistic hunting ranges (0-800 yards) and I’ve see enough from 108 and 109 ELDMs first hand to have utmost confidence in the package.

 

[marley]

you peaked my interest Yotebuster. I just ran the numbers of my 300 NMI shooting 215 grain bergers at 2950 fps against my 6.5 SST shooting 143 grain ELDXs at 2950, keeping all atmospheric pressures the same and setting the wind at 10 mph at 90 degrees and the difference in wind call is .3 MOA at 600 yards (what I think most people would call a long range shot in a hunting situation). That’s a two inch difference, well within “minute of lung”. I don’t think the big heavies really make that much of a difference with wind until you get in that 800-1000 yard range. Even at 1000 yards they are .5 MOA difference with a 10 mph cross wind. Wind is the biggest issue no matter what you’re shooting and I’ve learned more about that in the last 3 PRS competitions I’ve done than the other 35 years I’ve been hunting combined. I would highly encourage everyone to sign up and shoot a few PRS comps even if it’s with your hunting rig. WEALTH of wisdom to be gained at those things from great guys willing to help.

 

[yotebuster17]

you peaked my interest Yotebuster. I just ran the numbers of my 300 NMI shooting 215 grain bergers at 2950 fps against my 6.5 SST shooting 143 grain ELDXs at 2950, keeping all atmospheric pressures the same and setting the wind at 10 mph at 90 degrees and the difference in wind call is .3 MOA at 600 yards (what I think most people would call a long range shot in a hunting situation). That’s a two inch difference, well within “minute of lung”. I don’t think the big heavies really make that much of a difference with wind until you get in that 800-1000 yard range. Even at 1000 yards they are .5 MOA difference with a 10 mph cross wind. Wind is the biggest issue no matter what you’re shooting and I’ve learned more about that in the last 3 PRS competitions I’ve done than the other 35 years I’ve been hunting combined. I would highly encourage everyone to sign up and shoot a few PRS comps even if it’s with your hunting rig. WEALTH of wisdom to be gained at those things from great guys willing to help.

I guess if I knew I was not going to shoot further then 600 and in wind less then or equal to 10mph I think a 143 at 2950 would be fine. I live in ND and a 10mph wind is a starting point for the morning. I’m building a 25 SST right now so maybe I’ll come back around to this lighter caliber stuff after a few years with it.

 

[NevadaSheep]

25 SST is my dream build. I think it’s the ultimate western long range package at the moment. You’re gonna love it. It’s my next build! Really wish Hornady had done a 25 PRC as opposed to the 7 PRC last year as their new project.

Maybe you missed it, but Marley said that even at 1000 yards the difference is still marginal. Had he put the 147 ELDM (as opposed to 143 ELDX) in his calculations, it would have been even closer.

In your scenario of extreme long range and consistent winds over 10 MPH, it don’t matter what you are shooting. Again, no marginal increase in BC is going to save you in those scenarios. What matters is that you’ve shot ALOT in such conditions with your specific rifle, can spot shots, and have a clean execution that minimizes error. Hence another reason why I like 6 and 6.5s (and 25s). 99% of people will just plain practice more often and longer with a 6 than they will with a 300…

 

[Vanilla]

7mm Rem Mag or 7PRC would be my choices if buying an “all around” gun today.

A well placed bullet is what you need over size, but I’m still a believer that especially with elk, a bit more grains available in that bullet is a good thing.

I have a 7mm Rem Mag and I really like it. The 7PRC is an upgrade, but the 7mm Rem Mag is a great all-around cartridge.

Recoil on the .30 calibers is real. It’s not just about cowboying up either. It used to be a contest about who was the toughest and could take the biggest kick, but that mentality is old and out-dated. Less recoil always means better results.

 

[Jerry]

I'll sell you my 300 win, it'll rattle your molars cowboy. Like I said, not all manufacturers are the same, some rifles have less recoil, but mine flat out kicks!

The 7 MM REM Mag is my pick, just put on a good muzzle break & wear ear plugs - you are set to go hunting. Super factory ammo you want/need anywhere you go. My rifle is the REM M- 700 Bolt Action with a Harris long adjustable Bipod - sitting or prone with auto adjustable rotation bipod for uneven terrain. As good as it gets. Happy Hunting !!!!
Jerry Gold In Windsor, Colorado

 

[marley]

I guess if I knew I was not going to shoot further then 600 and in wind less then or equal to 10mph I think a 143 at 2950 would be fine. I live in ND and a 10mph wind is a starting point for the morning. I’m building a 25 SST right now so maybe I’ll come back around to this lighter caliber stuff after a few years with it.

you're going to love the 25 SST. I debated that and the 6.5 for along time.

 

[Gadjet]

I just totaled it up and between me, my kids, and my friends we have shot 37 animals with a 143 grain ELDX from either a 6.5 SST or a 6.5-06 AI at ranges from 5 yards on a mountain goat to 915 yards on a deer and several elk in between and we have used a total of 37 bullets. We have never had to shoot an animal twice. For now they are my go to bullets for hunting. Helps that they are super accurate in all of our rifles too.

Not to derail this thread, but what loads are you using on your 6.5-06?