can UT bring back deer when elk numbers are on the rise?

[schmalts]

I was thinking to myself today about the complaints about the deer numbers in UT and other states going down.
I was thinking is a lot of it because the Elk are pushing them out of habitat? What do you think?
When you are in a area loaded with Elk do you see a lot of deer? I dont. When you are in a heavy populated deer area do you see a lot of elk? I dont
Is it a dream to think we can have both in numbers? Is it coincedental that with the nations elk numbers at an all time high the Mule deer numbers are alarmingly low?
What do you think?

 

[cantkillathing]

I don't buy that idea, I have seen elk in deer in the same area, I think it is poor management for so many years, when you are giving what is it 150,000 deer tags or more each year and this is a number that has been cutt down for only 5 years, it use to be like 300,000 tags, plus the thousands of doe tags that you give, plus for several years the lion tags were limited to please the hounds men and other groups, so lions were up tremendously, bear were up, there was no predator control, plus the dought, plus the few poaching, plus the party hunting,plus the land owners recieving thousands of deperdation tags, plus the road kill, I think that that DWR is trying to have people buy into the fact that it could be the elk, and the drought that has done this, but it all boiles down to poor managment. The DWR needs to adjust to the drought years, if we are in drought cutt back the tags, if deer numbers are higher then up the tags, they tend to sale what they can instead of managing the herds. Then the biologist doesn't get an accurate deer count, they use a computer program that says something like if you count 1000 head of deer add 3000 to that number to fool the public that the deer numbers are up.

 

[woodpile53]

Also ,,If your like me I use to look out my window and all I saw
was the mountain,,and now all I see on the mountain are houses
where the deer use to winter.Makes it pretty tuff to get thru winter when you have so little winter range.

 

[need2hunt]

If you can reverse the effects of "human encroachment" the deer might come back pretty good. To put it simple, there are just too many people and they are taking over more land than the elk are!!! I also don't believe the elk displacing deer "theory." Deer and elk can and do co-exhist, in general they eat differently, with the exception of winter. The reason there are more elk is because they seem to adapt better to this newer environment of human encroachment....where as muleys are more dependent on a certain type of habitat. But as for elk taking over where deer once roamed....I don't think so.

 

[RuttCrazed]

I have a hard time buying the fact that all deer decline can be blamed on human encrouchment. What about in very rural counties where things haven't changed in the last 10 years, let alone the last 100? I hunt a lot around Carbon and Emery counties and there haven't been many changes in the areas (other than drought) and elk numbers are through the roof, while deer have been on a steady decline, why? Nobody is building on the wintering grounds, nobody is buying up fawning areas, elk are in every canyon and deer are hard to come by, why is this?

Anyone, anyone??

Rut

 

[WIDOW_MAKER]

I 've seen Monroe have a lot of deer at one point and then the elk sky rocketed and then the deer # went down.

Same with Beaver. I see more and more elk there every year there.


WIDOW_MAKER

 

[rocketman]

I live in SW Colo where elk are at an all time
high and deer numbers are way down. This trend
has been going on since the 1980s. I strongly
believe that it is very difficult to manage
to have both up at the same time.As habitat
changes it often benefits one and not the
other. Fire suppression often benefits elk
more than deer. Development effects deer on
the winter range far more than elk. Highway
fatalities far more on deer than elk. As
winter range is developed deer will continue
to go downward.Tough winters always hit deer
harder than elk. I do not believe deer will
ever comeback like the 1960s etc because of the
above reasons. Roy in Montrose Colo

 

[bowhuntinnut]

I live in nw Co. and the same is true here there are more elk than you can count. The deer numbers where there used to be deer are not even close to what they used to be. The DOW has limited the deer tags and the elk are over the counter and you still cannot find good numbers of deer where there used to be so many you quit counting. I don't beleive that there will ever be the numbers that we had back in the good ole days, there are just to many elk. I agree with the original post that where there are lots of elk you don't see as many deer, and vise versa. At least that is the case in these parts.

 

[338boy]

I heard a herd bull will eat one deer a week.

Areas we hunted in the 70's that had ton's of deer have no elk.

URBAN LEGEND

LOW FAWN SURVIVAL how do you blame that on elk?

338boy

 

[Benado]

If a heard bull will eat one deer per week, think what all the satallite bulls are doing? LMAO at what 338boy said! I have video footage (i.e. proof) that deer and elk get along ok. The elk move the deer around a little, but not enough to create a low fawn survival. I'd say that predators and lack of winter range are lots harder on the deer. I once saw an interesting article that talked about how the fish and game should double the price of deer tags and give a lion tag to go with it. I can't remember the details, but it seemed like a good idea, IMHO.

 

[intimidater37]

oh no i can smell a new post coming now

carnivorous elk eats deer post!!!!

 

[ktg]

The Book Cliffs and Henry Mountains are good examples of NO human enchroachment. They had to shut both those areas down to deer hunting because of lack of deer. There have never been more elk in the Book Cliffs but I don't think there are any elk in the Henrys. I think over hunting is the main cause.

 

[338boy]

ktg
The henry's could be the best example of no elk no deer!!! The henrys used to be awsome for deer.The book's were also one of the best units for deer but they hade elk there then .The book's have hade a cap on the elk herd for over ten years!!

Fawn survival is the most important issue when it comes to herd growth!!Herd growth = more bucks.

338boy

 

[oakbrush]

I think there is connection with a rising elk population to a declining deer population. We just have'nt figured out just what it is yet. Utah's San Jaun unit is a good example. My family has hunted there since the 60's. When you could shoot 2 deer a season. Not many Elk and the deer where everywhere. Now it is the complete opposite. Except there are bears in every drainage now as well.

 

[schmalts]

Good points. I will add one.
I hunted the Valle Vadal in NM this past fall. There is NO DEER season. The elk are all over and i saw maybe 8 deer in 11 days. This was great deer habitat as well. There is no human encroachment going on there or any of the surrounding units so why is the deer numbers so low?? they are free to breed and dont get hunted but they are not there!! I have to think it is the elk pushing and feeding them out.
In the Gila the locals talk about the good old days before elk were high in numbers and deer were the main game there. Why the reversal??
Is UT asking for the impossible in SOME of the units?
I am no bioligist but I have heard it many times in the past that "deer were here thick until the elk pushed them out"
Hey, in bad winters can a deer reach the same browsing level as an 7 foot tall elk?

 

[338boy]

schmalts

Lets do a poll and see if we should cut our elk herds in half, or more.

 

[schmalts]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-07-05 AT 08:28PM (MST)[p][>schmalts
>
>Lets do a poll and see
>if we should cut our
>elk herds in half, or
>more.
You do that, but i wont cry like a baby because you are looking for the truth.
grow up 338kid, boy I must be getting under your skin, are you gonna pout about it on every post i reply to? good to see your starting to like me.

 

[4x6]

the main problem has already been posted here! two many hunters,droughts, road kill, ect,ect, dwr thinking they can sell 97,ooo tags every year and nothing will happen... and at one time here in utah you used to hunt cats with youre deer tag! and they also used to be like yotes, no season.,another thing they should go back to is either sex tags. would you rather have a hunter take a little 2 point, or a big doe? there are still far more does than bucks here in utah!!

 

[Skunkterd]

NO more poisons, hence more yotes & a Major increase in elk

 

[400bull]

I don't think that the elk have has big of impact on deer as some seem to think. On several occasions I have seen deer right smack in the middle of an elk herd feeding along as if they were elk them selfs. I don't buy the fact the it is because of human incrochment, or because of the drought that is causeing the problem. It's a combination of many things that is causing the decline. We just need to find out what it is that is having the most effect on the deer recolve that issue and move on to the next. The problem that I see is that the DWR here in Utah seems to have there eyes set on Elk and can not see the need to work out the issues that our deer herds currently faces.

400bull

 

[B_F_E]

Because of the fine balance which cumulatively comprise an ecosystem, there are clearly many environmental variables that effect the mule deer niche. every factor mentioned above (minus those carnivorous bull elk) have an impact on mule deer survival.

Its my opinion that so many things are stacked against muleys that seemingly small things, such as the introduction of a thriving elk herd, can further tip the scales against our deer.

Henrys, Vernon, Ensign ranch, are current examples of areas where the elk have been beat back & mule deer are rallying.
Its my opinion that the DWR is perfectly aware of this, but do not want to openly acknowledge it, since there would be crys to manage units for one or the other deer or elk & that would not produce the revenue that they receive currently by selling tags for both elk & deer.

It should also be noted that were Elk #'s are burgeoning, Monroe, Pavant, that you still see an occasional trophy buck taken, since the big boys are where ever you find them, this does not mean that those deer herds are increasing overall, since this is not the case.

 

[fishon]

There is no extensive study that I know of on what impact elk may or may not have on deer. I think it is something that should be done and would be willing to arrange the funds to do such a study.

Right now our deer are in trouble and everyone seems to have their own opinion on how to fix the problem yet none have seemed to work. 1 thing for sure is that the deer problem is not fixed regardless of what some would like you to believe.

We are getting a chance with the moisture we have had and with the money these conservation groups have raised, but the main problem and the solution to that problem have not yet been figured out.

I hope we can all work together to get it solved before utah turns out like nevada and the other states where you only get to hunt deer 1 in 5 years if you are lucky.

tony abbott

 

[need2hunt]

To me human encroachment brings in all the following factors and probably a few more I can't think of as of yet:

-overharvesting/too much hunting pressure
-shed hunters harrassing animals during winter
-roads/roadkill
-nature lovers out on a hike
-subdivisions/houses in prime deer habitat
-feral dogs

As you can see Human encroachment takes into account many factors, beyond just houses where deer use to be. We people do a lot inadvertant damage to wildlife than we think we do.

 

[30plus]

There have been various studies done the decline of mule deer and there are as many reasons for it as there have been studies. I have a publication from the mule deer working group, I think that was the name, it is biologists from the western states and Canadian provinces. You have to look at the history first, until the 1940s the mule deer were hard to find in most places. My granpa grew up in Ut. valley minutes from some of the greatest mule deer hunting ever but would go to southern Ut. in the 30s & 40s to hunt deer. during this time the ranchers put seriuos pressure on the predators, (there were a lot more cattle and sheep on the ranges during the deer boom then today) wildfires would burn without being immediatly dowsed. and the ranges were managed. Then in the 50s & 60s deer exploded, the Gov. began serios fire suppresion. through the 70s restrictions were put on managing predators and range management changed. in the 80s chaining stopped the Gov. stopped most predator control but the deer still produced more then the predators could eat, lions were still hard to find. In the early 90s Ut. lost significant deer in the 92-93 winter. Then the drought came on and the deer got stuck in a cycle where they could not produce more fawns then the predators, highways, hunters etc. were killing.
The large wildfires of the late 90s destroyed habitat but at the same time opened it up for better deer range. Now those areas are just starting to grow the browse muleys thrive on. Plus the state has been doing a better job of managing predators (killing) call me greedy but I'lltrade one lion or coyote for 1 deer any day and I believe the trade to be much higher. The Federal Gov. has just started to allow large scale range rehab in the west (Healthy Forest initiative)
The things that will help our deer herds to continue to grow (I think areas in Ut. are seeing deer herds grow)or decline are many, and most I believe can be affected by man. I do not care how much money we raise to do projects if the politicians are not working with us, it will not matter.
We can set aside winter range but if no fawns survive to winter what good is it. If we kill all the lions and coyotes but the range is all grown over thick with P&J, and houses not many deer can winter. Some areas will never have large herds again to much habitat has already been lost.
I guess what I am triing to say is we need to work our butts off in politics, management and conservation. To get the deer herd up to a maximum number and keep it there. I hope this makes sense.

 

[CATMAN]

Well I'll have to post this even if I get in trouble. Where I live "North Eastern Utah" I'll give any one of you a steak dinner and a tank of gas for every lion track you can find for me that is runnable. By this I mean an overnite track thats not on the Reservation. The falsy that lions are doing all this damage to deer #'s here is a joke. Lions have to leave tracks...they can't fly. I know we definately have a coyote problem, but around here....unless you hunt lions and know what their #'s are without guessing....you can't blame them. Besides there's more lion hunters now than there EVER were and the deer #'s are way down. Back in the 40's and 50's there were a handfull....now there's thousands. Explain that?
Catman...Oh and Yup I like to hunt deer too

 

[schmalts]

All interesting responses. Is there any hard studies that have been done yet to back any of these theories?
I still believe deer cannot co-exist in an area with peak elk levels. I dont think they can compete in the winter for brows and other forage.
Although this isnt the case for all the areas that do not have high elk numbers. Maybe that is where preditors and over harvest comes in.

 

[idahonative]

You bet deer are being pushed out by elk. I love elk too, but it is no coincidence at all that high elk numbers are equalling low deer numbers. Can they co-exist- yes. Can they co-exist with equally high populations, no way. There are areas in Idaho that have the highest biomass levels in recorded history right now, yet we have little deer. Pretty logical assumptions can be made from that. Any time you can go find 70 head of elk in a sagebrush canyon and find only three does, you've got a balance problem. Look for Idaho in particular to be cutting elk levels in the southern half of the state to start favoring our mule deer herds. It's already in the works.