Combine all deer units

fullthrottle

fullthrottle

Very Active Member
Messages
1,361
The time is now Utah to combine all deer units into one deer draw, the longer we wait the harder and more impact it is going to have on everyone's points. The better general units are already separating themselfs and rising to the top. The current deer draw system is junk. There's no general units, they are all limited entry so why in the hell don't we change it now instead of really impacting points further down the road. I really like Colorado's system, the season breakdown's are great. I think they get a lot more out of there resource than Utah. I do like the way Utah's draw is structured though, gives the guy with a lot of points the best chance and the guy with none atleast a chance.
 
Why change just to change?
What makes this system better than the current system?
Why call a system "junk" just because you don't like it?
Why is this the right time for an arbitrary change when we're already 2 decades into bonus points?

Seems counter productive.... unless it somehow benefits you!
I have yet to hear an argument that makes real sense.

Zeke
 
Not just to change, I feel like it would be a simplified, better system. What we have now are 2 limited entry systems, stupid. Junk becuase we are making it more complicated than it needs to be. Don't you feel like this system is bound to change, judging from the board meetings? The longer you wait the harder it's going to be. If we don't change it, eventually some of the general areas are going to take many points to draw and you are going to have 2 draws for the same thing. Doesn't benefit me or anyone else right now, but if you wait it will.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-19-15 AT 12:44PM (MST)[p]I appreciate your passion but I still fail to see how "complicated' this 2-part system is.
It's not complicated when you understand it. This system is like anything else.... complicated until you know better.
Yes, the deer apps are divided into 2 systems with subsets within those. I'm still not perplexed with complicated ideas!
If (and that's a big "if") our units were closer in quality, it might make sense to combing into one system. Bur alas, they are like night and day and should be treated as such.

Under "your" system:
So, lets say I have 15 bonus points and also 4 preference points. Would I then have 19 points total? How would you begin to unwind the bonus v preference points dilemma?

It seems like there would be losers and winner, like I've always said, with ANY change like this.

I'm yet to hear a coherent, original, realistic thought on changing the deer system.

Zeke
 
Don't you think we could get more out of the the resource if our draw and season structure reflected Colorado. Think about it, the deer draw would be one draw. Guys could choose different weapons, seasons, hunt quality. The whole experience would be higher quality and you could give out the same amount of tags. You would have more tools to open up more high quality hunts to help spread out the demand for premo hunts. As is now my kids will never draw the Henry's and not likely the puans. Really the only 2 high quality hunts in the state, that's great we have 2 hunts that nobody can draw, but if we mixed it up a little maybe we could create a few more premo hunts. I don't know, just feel like we can do better with the resource than what we are doing now.
 
I hear ya Zeke, no perfect fix. You make some good points. Just frustrated mostly, willing to sacrifice or change whatever to help improove Utah as a whole deer quality. Don't know what the answer is, but I know it's not breaking the state up into 30 units and leaving the tag numbers basically the same, pretending like we made some drastic change.
 
Isn't Utah conducting a study right now to determine if combining the two types of deer hunts would be beneficial?

I predict that Utah will combine the two deer application into one in the next few years. That is why I am building points for limited entry deer and general deer. Hopefully, they combine the points from limited entry and general season if they go to a one deer application system.

I don't know what the best thing is for the deer, the hunters, or the state. I do know that Utah Wildlife likes money as much or more than any other government agency.

Dillon
www.dillonhoyt.com
 
No sir.
I don't think a change would make it the deer tag utopia of which you speak.

There's nothing about a different system that would produce a "better experience". Every scenario, description and experience in you previous post is already possible under the current system. It seems like you're hell-bent on Colorado's system but why do we have to be like someone else? I've played both systems for decades and there is no clear winner!

I'm really NOT trying to be confrontational. I'm just not able to find a rational argument which favors a change. I only see turmoil and gnashing of teeth over how the bonus v preference will get resolved.

Love, Zeke
 
I
>am building points for limited
>entry deer and general deer.
>Hopefully, they combine the points
>from limited entry and general
>season if they go to
>a one deer application system.
>
>


There's my point!!!! Exactly!!!!
We're opening up Pandora's box and some don't/can't see it.

There will be big winner and big losers with any change!
Zeke
 
I agree. Combine into one system (see Colorado). It is effectively all Limited Entry anyway and now they have LE hunts in November on General Season units... I think the writing is on the wall.

I don't however have a good solution as to what to do with everybody's points. That is going to be a tough one and some people will feel they got screwed.

Grizzly
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-19-15 AT 01:10PM (MST)[p]You have to remember this will also effect the other species as well. If they combine all deer they would have to allow you to apply for elk, deer and pronghorn every year. I don't see how this couldn't change since it would be insane to have someone just looking to hunt a "general" type unit for deer be locked out of the LE elk and pronghorn draw.

alpinebowman

>>>---shots that are true pass right through--->
 
>
> I
>>am building points for limited
>>entry deer and general deer.
>>Hopefully, they combine the points
>>from limited entry and general
>>season if they go to
>>a one deer application system.
>>
>>
>
>
>There's my point!!!! Exactly!!!!
>We're opening up Pandora's box and
>some don't/can't see it.
>
>There will be big winner and
>big losers with any change!
>
>Zeke

Zeke, we need to bite the bullet and then it's over. I really believe if hunters only have one choice most of the point creep will subside. It will mean do you want to hunt every year or do you want to go for quality.
 
Remember this guys, there are consequences and unintended consequences with any and all change to a system which has been around for so long.

I have YET to have it explained how a change will vault the experience and cannot reason why you all think it so complicated! Ever post pics on MM? Now that's complicated! LMAO

Good luck in the various deer draws this year and if you're perplexed by the complexity of the system, just call this country boy and I'll walk you through it.

Zeke
 
You talk as though points creep is a bad thing. It's simply a symptom of supply v demand. This will NEVER be remedied by a different system.
Simple, simple, simple.
Zeke
 
Odds are there is going to be a change in the deer draw, and that is my point Zekester way less painful sooner than later. As far as Colorado goes, she is my mistress, there deer quality blows Utah away, and quite frankly it shouldn't. I do like seeing all the response and opinions of the MM crowd, shows people care.
 
There is nothing in a Colorado type system that will improve Utah's deer herds unless we reduce opportunity.

There's nothing about Colorado's draw system that improves OUR deer hunting experience in Utah.

There's nothing sacred about anyone's draw system BUT whenever there is a CHANGE there will be consequences which are not planned or wanted.

By the way, any change will have little to no effect on me so don't get the idea it's all about me. I seem to always have enough to hunt, here or elsewhere.

I really want to get some critical thinking going on about what it will REALLY mean and what it will REALLY do if we change... just for change sake.

This type of civil debate is always welcome yet rare on MM.
Zeke
 
Reduce opportunity for quality sign me up. That's a good point, I always seem to have enough hunts to keep me busy that I don't have to hunt deer in utah every year. Probably not so much the draw system of Colorado, although I do think Utah is headed in that direction and should be. But more the season structure similar to that of Colorado could vastly improove "quality" opportunity, IF we kept tag numbers reasonable. I don't see why Utah cannot have comparable deer quality to that of Colorado. I would like to see Utah drastically reduce tags for a few years to help get the mature buck numbers up, and then increase tags accordingly. When Colorado did this the locals thought the sky was falling, now they think it's the best move they ever made. You don't see guys pounding the dinks in colorado like they do in utah becuase they know the potential is there.
 
If a person is required to decide on one deer hunt rather than being allowed to put in for two deer hunts believe me it will influence the odds dramatically. There will be a lot, and I mean a lot, of hunters who will be out of the premium deer unit pool because they will want to hunt nearly every year. Grant you those with 12+ point will scream like banshee's though, but after a few years all good times for those wishing to wait a couple of years for a premium hunt.
 
What about the lifetime license holders? Utah wouldn't refund their money, they'd have to let them get a guaranteed Henry's deer tag every year...then all those tag holders would ruin the Henry's and work down to the Pauns and so forth. Like Zeke said def problems on how this would work out. I think the real question is why isn't Utah managing more units for better quality deer areas...
 
>What about the lifetime license holders?
> Utah wouldn't refund their
>money, they'd have to let
>them get a guaranteed Henry's
>deer tag every year...then all
>those tag holders would ruin
>the Henry's and work down
>to the Pauns and so
>forth. Like Zeke said
>def problems on how this
>would work out. I
>think the real question is
>why isn't Utah managing more
>units for better quality deer
>areas...

This was discussed on another forum and the consensus was that it was not true. The lifetime license rule said General Season specifically. It also allows DWR to change rules as required. It would be far more realistic that they would "grandfather" them into units that were previously General Season as the DWR reserves the right to alter seasons/units as they deem necessary. For example, if they close a unit for management purposes, LL holders don't get to hunt it just because it was open when they bought the LL. When DWR shortened seasons to a few days in certain units a couple of years ago, the LL holders still had to abide by 3-day seasons... they didn't get to hunt 9 days because that was the rule when they bought their LL.

As any attorney would tell you, the maximum damages should a LL holder sue the State would be limited to actual cost at purchase... and they may even prorate out the benefit received so far and subtract a prorated amount for LL used. The number of remaining LL holders that get deer tags is not cost prohibitive at all (I can't remember the numbers but somebody did provide them on the other forum and it wasn't much money at all in the big scheme of things).

Grizzly
 
I almost purchased a lifetime permit (wish I had) and call the DWR before the time limit had expired to purchase it. I asked them, point blank, if the state went to a draw would I be guaranteed a permit. They said most certainly, but I would not be guaranteed where. It could go to the unit with the lowest odds to draw, so I didn't purchase the life time permit.
 
So you guys are saying that these premium units are different and as such should be treated differently? Me too!
Thanks for making my point!!
If you want them the same then let's make them the same! I'd love a Henry Mtn tag every year!
What's that you say? They're different? EXACTLY!
Love Zeke
 
Zeke - I don't think they should be different. That doesn't mean the DWR can't dictate what unit Lifetime License holders can have the best chance at. Have them select six or more choices and go by the odds for those selections. There are many ways to handle it. They are only guaranteed a permit and it doesn't need to say where they are going to hunt.

I really don't understand what you're getting at.
 
cannonball,
I'm being silly, of course, about all the lifetime guys getting to hunt the Henry's every year (or am I?). I've seen what too many hunters can do to the unit. I hunted it for years long before it was close or ultimately became a LE unit and saw what happened as soon as the F&G removed the 3 pt restriction. Hunters showed up in droves and the unit went in the toilet in just a couple years! Even you young guys know the history from there.

My point is this: I'f some of you are so hell-bent on changing the whole system, simply so we look like another State's system with zero real benefit, then let's do it all the way!

If everything is going into one draw system then why are we so protective of just a couple units? What's good for one unit should be good for another so let's either open them all like general LE units or limit the hell out of opportunity, like we do the Henry's.

Better yet, let's simply keep the system that we have since you guys want to keep some "special" units set aside anyway!

Zeke
 
Sorry, I don't see the issue with "point creep" every state deals with it. Yes even CO has point creep. I started applying for 61 archery elk when 6 points would guarantee you a tag. I now have 18 and still can't draw a tag.
So if you want to make one drawing for deer, lets do the same for elk. Either you apply for LE elk, or you apply for a spike/general season tag. Elk hunters shouldn't have the opportunity to build points for LE elk and hunt elk every year.
If you changed the system now, the guys that have been building LE deer points would get screwed. I have never figured out why the system needs changed. It seem to be working to me. "point creep" is everywhere. It is happening with every specie in every state with a point system. It is not only a UT deer problem.
 
Zeke, I see some of your concern, but just because we show all units as the same does not mean we would need to treat them the same as far as number of hunters per unit. To me the "same means" choose your deer hunt "PERIOD!". This would help a bunch as far a point creep. They could then cut down on "say", Monroe Mountain to make a better hunt. They could then review each unit and decide whether it is a trophy unit or a meat unit or somewhere in between. This darn point creep is ridiculous except for the real lucky or the hunters nearing their death bed.

Why should we not have the choice to hunt a lot of years for a meat deer or hold out and only hunt a few years for a trophy depending on which unit you choose.
 
If you're going to change it, really change it. They will need to separate the LE from General season applications. You can't do both and keep going like we do. We all want our cake and eat it too, but that model is not working. Just like they've done with different species, you would have to choose. That is how they MIGHT find a way to reduce point creep and such... And improve opportunity.

For several years, we will all put in for our LE hunts most likely, though I would expect some applicants with low points might very well move to general season units immediately. There were 33,000 LE applicants last year. That is a potential 33,000 less hunters in general season areas. (Good thing). Applicants coming up on beginning their applications for either LE or General Season will have to choose which pool to go into. If they get into the General Season line, they are likely to draw sooner and more frequently, find fewer hunters than previously and gradually an increase in quality and quantity of deer. (Good thing) As far as the LE units, it is inevitable that the years to draw will begin to go down as applicants reduce. LE units will still have far fewer tags, and will take longer to draw (you don't get a general season tag while waiting) and GS units will see an increase in deer numbers and hopefully quality too (but you are ineligible for the LE tags).

Also, CWMUs would be in the GS pool. No buying a CWMU permit AND putting in for LE units. And sportsmen used to hunting private property AND drawing LE tags would have to choose. This will take out hundreds or even thousands of applicants from LE and wouldn't affect the GS hunt because they're all on inaccessible private lands anyway...

So there it is. LE units require your full dedication. Applying for LE tags make you ineligible for all other tags. And applying for or buying any other tag makes you ineligible for LE tags.

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
Changing the way a state handles it's draw system will do NOTHING for the deer. The bonus point system in Utah is not what is wrong with our deer herd. And the preference point system/split seasons is not what is right with Colorado's deer herd.

So let's go to a one-point LE only system for deer. Then, if you are a resident, you get to choose whether you hunt elk or deer that year, because you can't do both. That sounds like an awesome system. But hey, at least the trophy hunters will get to hunt their preferred units more often...

Say what you want, but that us what this is about. And it is disingenuous to try to claim otherwise. It's another attempt to cut the little guy out and limit opportunity in favor of big money for big antlers.

People that yearn for the good old days and decry how overcrowded we are realize there used to be over twice as many hunters in the field each year, right?
 
I like the idea of combining the draws. If a guy has a load of points and wants to hunt a LE unit, he can apply for a LE unit. Do away with the point for drawing a something other than first choice as well, you draw a tag, you lose your points. If a guy wants to hunt every year and has a load of points, make the tag he draws cost him the average amount it took to draw. It will take a lot of pressure of off the "general" units. Plus I think it will
 
Point creep is inevitable. When demand out weights supply, that's the result. It happens anywhere there is a bonus point system.

Colorado gets a lot more out of their resource than Utah does, because Colorado has more resource. More deer, Less deer hunters/tags than UT, more units to choose from.

Even if Utah switched their system and combined everything into one draw, it's not going to make the point creep disappear. As long as demand is greater than supply point creep will always be an issue. It doesn't just magically go away because you combine people into one pool.

There is no win-win situation for everyone. Utah wants to maintain as much opportunity as the resource will allow. Some would say they allow too much already.

They have always made it very clear, in the RAC meetings that I have attended, that any proposed change cannot effect the bottom line. Meaning if you made people choose to either go the LE route or the General Season route, you are potentially losing tens of thousands of applicants/hunters for general season tags. They would have to "make-up" for that revenue somehow. That would be a significant impact to opportunity also, something I don't think they would go for. Let's not forget how much the all mighty dollar plays into it all.
 
Colorado has a better resource because there management practices are heads and heels above Utahs. Colorado has far more hunters than utah, that's not even close, but they do give out less tags, huh who would of thunk it don't give out more tags than the resource can handle, no matter what the demand. Wow they actually manage there herds for the better of the herd... Amazing. Your right it is all about the $$, but colorado is making over 10 times more on there non resident tags and they sale a lot of them because non res actually want to hunt there. That's all I'm saying, colorado has a better resource for one main reason and that is proper management. That is why I would like to see more of Colorado's technique's implemented into Utahs system. They've proven it's a hell of a lot better then Utahs ways. That statement just flat pisses me off, "they have more deer than utah, but give out less tags". No #####, that's why they have a better resource. Are the residence in utah really that stupid that they are buying the crap the division is selling? Come on guys, it's really not that hard. Please start "managing our herds" and not our hunters!
 
Don't buy it. It will always take several points to draw on the Henries, Pauns, etc, but not a whole life time. I really think those who don't want a change are those who want to hunt every year and still have a chance at the Big One, but I really think the fair way is a single - "You Choose" philosophy. I know more hunters, than not, who would fore-go several years of hunting to go to the Henries, Pauns. It would also open up units where those who want to hunt every year.
 
I think preference points should be erased if they combine draw. There is no good reason to have more than one or possibly two preference points anyway. People banking preference points do not deserve to cut in line or lurch ahead in the limited entry system.
 
>I think preference points should be
>erased if they combine draw.
>There is no good reason
>to have more than one
>or possibly two preference points
>anyway. People banking preference points
>do not deserve to cut
>in line or lurch ahead
>in the limited entry system.
>

I have seven preference points, only one limited entry point and have to agree with you with this extent. It was my choice not to hunt at least every other year, so give those who have been applying for preference points, one point, added to all of their limited entry points. It's only fair that they don't get credit for all of their points whereas they could have hunted. It would be an injustice to allow all of the points added together.
 
another suggestion: implement this over two years and tell them after that time, preference points would be eliminated with no carry forward.
 
I like this idea. I only have 1 preferance point so not much of an investment, compared to others. It would be nice if the division if/when they made this decision to lay out the plan 1 year in advance and give the preferance guys a fair chance to burn there points.
 
Change to the deer draw that will change point creep for those hard core limited deer hunters would throw the point creep for other species through the roof. Right now you have to choose which species. If enough jump out of limited deer and just go general to change that point creep then they are going to elk or antelope limited draw. Wonder how the hard core elk hunters feel about that.

What about the youth and their hunting future? I have been putting in my. Sons for deer in Colorado for ten years. Yes they will have one good deer hunt there, but have not been hunting deer in Colorado once yet with their system.
 
>Colorado has a better resource because
>there management practices are heads
>and heels above Utahs. Colorado
>has far more hunters than
>utah, that's not even close,
>but they do give out
>less tags, huh who would
>of thunk it don't give
>out more tags than the
>resource can handle, no matter
>what the demand. Wow they
>actually manage there herds for
>the better of the herd...
>Amazing. Your right it is
>all about the $$, but
>colorado is making over 10
>times more on there non
>resident tags and they sale
>a lot of them because
>non res actually want to
>hunt there. That's all I'm
>saying, colorado has a better
>resource for one main reason
>and that is proper management.
>That is why I would
>like to see more of
>Colorado's technique's implemented into Utahs
>system. They've proven it's a
>hell of a lot better
>then Utahs ways. That statement
>just flat pisses me off,
>"they have more deer than
>utah, but give out less
>tags". No #####, that's why
>they have a better resource.
>Are the residence in utah
>really that stupid that they
>are buying the crap the
>division is selling? Come on
>guys, it's really not that
>hard. Please start "managing our
>herds" and not our hunters!
>

A better resource? Really? While we were on the 2014 Mule Deer Planning Committee, we were notified through an article by the Denver Post that Colorado Parks and Wildlife Division was seeking help from the public via a Mule Deer Strategy Summit because the statewide mule deer population had gone from 614,100 in 2005 to 390,600 in 2013, a 36% drop while the average drop across the other western states was only 10% during that time. "As a result, wildlife officials have reduced the number of hunting licenses from 130,106 in 2007 to about 80,000 for this year. Hunters typically see about a 45 percent success rate, countered by annual reproduction. In some areas, doe harvest has been eliminated. but herd numbers continue to decline." Their solution? Improve habitat, predator management, slowing down development, installing highway fencing and overpasses and underpasses, close/restrict human activities in critical habitat, lower doe harvest in units below population objectives while enhancing doe harvest with youth in units at or over population objectives and disease monitoring. Sounds familiar?
 
Well Boys!

Let's say this Deer Point Deal s like Utah's LE Elk Deal!

And let's say in 20 Years you still Ain't Pulled a Deer Tag just like me not Pulling an Elk Tag in 20 years!

I Don't mind waitin 20+ years/My turn!

But it sure would be nice to have something half decent to Hunt after it took 1/2 your Life to Draw the Tag!

Utah's Points Systems SUCK,Especially for younger Hunters just getting started in the game!

We are in to the Big Game Points System far enough now people are starting to SCREAM!

They couldn't see what was happening initially but they can see it now!

The only thing I know for sure is:

Ain't nobody taking 20 GAWD-DAMNED years worth of Points away from me!

(((Even if they are JUNK!:D)))













[font color="redhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMsueOnu0kY
 
Haha nice. 10 years of building points in colorado and not hunting is your decision, there is a lot of awesome mule deer hunts in CO that can be drawn with way less than that.
 
I'm not much older than some of the old timers here on this forum, but believe it or not, limited entry units were nothing more than "restricted access" areas folded on the back side of the proclamation!

Yes, if you were not "keen" to look on the back side of the "proclamation", you'd hardly notice that they were there in the back of a "map"!!! Yeah, it was a pretty well hidden advantage!

I feel bad to inform you that you had to do a little inquiring / self investigation to discover that there were better areas to hunt in Utah than the areas that you could buy over the counter AND hunt all 3 seasons, without a $175.00 of you're free cash and 40 hour's of available Saturdays. Yeah, "they took that away too".

They didn't send you a Personal invite to the "club" in the form of a post card in the mail a week before the app period to remind your naive a$$ to apply for an Opportunity. Now days, every one and his mother "knows" before hand. That's, the Problem! Commercialization!

That said, a few of us had the fortitude to know s#!+ was coming down the pipes to negatively affect our way of life, and to realize that supply would soon fall to demand, necessitating an in prompt investment of $500 bones. That's 1993 dollars, not the diluted 2015 crap!

That said, do YOU want to hunt a premium unit with proven genetics , or do YOU want to hunt an area with ample production??
You decide, make a commitment, and quit bit chin about it!
1 or the other,
NOT BOTH!

Sorry for the harshness, I'm not your mother, this is life!


For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security.

Thomas Jefferson
 
I like the idea of one point system. While it may not help the deer herd it would without a doubt shorten the amount of years it takes to draw any deer tag.

A few have pointed out that Colorado still has excessive point creep even though they only have one draw. The only reason Colorado has that excessive number of high point holders is that they allow people to draw a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th choice without losing any points. If Utah were to move to a one draw system and implement a rule that you lose your points for drawing any choice the point creep would be far less than in Colorado. If Utah does move in that direction I hope they go for the bonus point system where half go to the highest point holders and half go in the random draw(to give youth and newbies with minimal points the opportunity to hunt) and not the preference point system where only the highest point holders get a tag.

EFA, I laughed when you said Colorado was asking for input on why their population numbers were plummeting. With the insane amount of doe tags they give out it does not take much brain power to see whats going on! IMO doe tags should only be issued if a unit is way over objective or there is severe depredation issues, period. A few years ago on the unit I hunt in Colorado the herd numbers started dropping dramatically, way below objective, so to help the herd the geniuses eliminated the 4th season buck hunt(4 tags) and left the amount of doe tags the same(around 400 if I remember correctly). See the problem!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-15 AT 11:01AM (MST)[p]So, for you guys pulling for a "one Points" system, what will be the impact to other LE applications... like elk? Could a guy apply for deer AND elk?

Are you proposing that if you apply for ANY deer unit that you cannot apply for a LE elk unit?

If it's good for deer then why not for elk? You could simply apply for an elk tag... some would be better, some worse but you'd have just one points system/draw also. NO over the counter crap! Let's really make guys decide what they want so we really reduce creep!

This way you could simply pick your species and pick your unit. If you draw, great. If you don't draw, go somewhere else because you're not hunting Utah this year!

Ya, I like that idea. It would really help points creep.... since you guys think it's such a dirty little thing!

Remember a little thing called "unintended consequences"
Zeke
 
Deerlove,
That's true, under the current system, but I'd bet money that the spike tags would all get sold in the first round if a guy had to choose a species and hunt unit(s) and that was it! He'd be forced to have a spike hunt as his 4th or 5th choice.

It's all coming to me now.... limit the Hell out of hunters and make them REALLY choose. We'd only be able to hunt our home State every 5-10 years but points creep would diminish. LMAO

Points creep? What's that you say? haha

Hopefully the "study", which will be conducted concerning the "one points" system, will be comprehensive enough to weigh some serious consequences. It's going to get interesting since everyone will be playing their "angle", just like they are now!

Zeke
 
You all have raised some very good points. I would be interested in trying to simply the system and limit point creep but we also need to think this through carefully in an effort to avoid unintended consequences. Keep up the discussion.

Hawkeye

"The professional market hunter . . .
and the rich people who are content to
buy what they have not the skill to get
by their own exertions - these are the
men who are the real enemies of game."
Theodore Roosevelt
 
We have different views in what needs to be done, and most think that we need a change. We can sit and blog back and forth, but that is not going to get the job done.

One thing I have learned over the years from ranches, archers, and other special interest groups is the masses need to write and talk and re-write and re-talk to members of the big game board. In other words hit your shoe on the table until they get tired of listening to it and do something about it. You can stay here on MM all day long and hash things over and it wouldn't do a bit of good.

That's my take on it anyhow.
 
Zeke,
How would moving to one point system make it to where everyone could only hunt deer every 5-10 years? Ya the die hard trophy hunters would get to hunt every 5-10 years(wouldn't that be nice to hunt the Pauns. or Henrys that often) but I just don't see how that would be the case for the opportunity crowd.
 
elkfromabove, so your telling me CO doesn't implement or have a better mule deer resource than UT. Huh, interesting. So I guess all the non residents waiting in line to hunt Muleys in Colorado just like the scenery, or what? I mean it is pretty stunning out there. Those mature bucks are pretty cool too. Everywhere out west is struggling to keep there mule deer herds in check, I just feel Colorado does a better job of it. But Utah is holding there own, at least for an opportunity state.
 
I am in the 1 point system for Deer, combine the Pref/Bonus points into 1 point pool--Bonus points with the 50/50% logic and make all 5 choices count/points used...leftover deer tags--points used on them too---

Zeke---Nope, go for deer or LE elk or LE Antelope...clean out all the bottom feeders on deer real fast----

Robb
 
Even with a one deer draw system would not preclude them from making it two year waiting for some units. I have heard the BGB is studying what changes would be best.

Have any of you heard anything?
 
Utah really has 3 deer point systems. We can't forget about the dedicated hunter pool of points. I currently have 3 points as a nonresident. How do we deal with those points.
 
How about this... We make it one point system, but make all the current General Season tags Limited Entry units with unlimited tag quota, however, to draw one you must make it your 1st choice on the application.

Basically, anybody can hunt it every year they want... but if you decide to hunt GS then it means you decided to not apply anywhere else.

You will have less crowding on the GS units because of all the guys applying for LE tags, and you will have less point creep because of all the guys who would prefer to hunt GS every year. Everybody wins.

What it would not do is allow the current boondoggle of building points AND hunting every year that got us into this mess.

Grizzly
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-15 AT 12:08PM (MST)[p]What's the mess?
The F&G will continue to give X number of tags State-wide and X number of tags per unit. It would NOT produce the results that you're touting. It would reduce the demand for the 2 or 3 units that everyone wants but not by enough to eliminate the logjam.
You guys are only suspecting that a new system will transform hunting. IT WILL NOT. It will simply be a different distribution method to issue the same number of tags.
Some will win, some will lose but the pressure on the resource will remain the exact same. No difference.
I have yet to see what the gain would be for the resource... only what selfish gains some hunters would have.
Sorry guys, I'm not convinced yet.
By the way, seems nobody is addressing how it will impact elk and antelope applications and how it would all dovetail together.
Zeke
 
I will start by saying I am no longer a resident in Utah.

The problem that I see is a large group of people who feel they deserve a "trophy" hunt once they have waited for their turn in the LE draw. In an attempt to keep "theirs", they want the LE hunts to be a cake walk for "trophy" animals (90% successes rates). Therefore, they are willing to allow/push for conservative LE permit numbers. IMO there are a lot of people who like the units being managed on age class. The average hunter is ok with the age class because they can still hunt every year. I think you would see a fundamental change in the system and at the very least a slow down in point creep if the hunters had to choose between hunting every year and or building for a trophy hunt. Just my opinion...It is sad that AZ has more LE tag numbers than Utah for their deer and elk even though they have far fewer deer and elk in their state. They have trophy hunts that take years to draw and units that can be drawn almost every year. The residents choose between waiting for the trophy hunts and hunting every year. A single system. JMO
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-15 AT 03:54PM (MST)[p]Combine all deer units into one Bonus Point system. Each applicant would start with their highest points from either point system they were in. There are relatively few Preference point holders having 4 pts or more (~300) that would combine into the Bonus point holders, which are ~18,000+ with 4 pts or more. So, I do not see an issue for the Bonus point holders. If an Applicant draws a permit, whether it's a 1st, 2nd or subsequent choice, they use all points and go back to zero the next year. No waiting period. Any leftover permit purchased over the counter would result in forfeiting any points.

Lifetime license holders would be guaranteed a permit for any unit that took 3 pts or less to draw. Basically, a Lifetime license holder would always have a minimum of 3 pts going into any buck deer draw. If they would prefer to apply for a unit that took 4 pts or more to draw and were unsuccessful they would get a point but, they would not hunt deer that year (3 pts was selected because every GS any weapon unit, except Thousand Lake, could be drawn every year with 3 pts). A Lifetime license holder could still draw a permit for one of the ?Regular? permits on any unit requiring 4 or more pts, just like anyone else. But, if drawn they go back to 3 pts in the next years draw.

Dedicated Hunters would still work the same as it is now. The difference is that a dedicated hunter applies for multiple units but does not draw his 1st choice. Even though they draw a 2nd or 3rd choice permit they would not go back to zero the next year but would get a point. They could gain points up to a max of 3 pts but, once they are selected in a unit with their 1st choice the next year they would go back to zero DH pts. Again, this would allow DH?ers the opportunity to hunt every year in what currently are GS units. The tricky part are those DH'ers that have Bonus points already.

Youth hunters would still receive up to 20% of permits for any unit that required 3 pts or less to draw. However, if a youth applies for a permit that requires 4 pts or more and is not successful they would receive a point. The next year they would go into the draw with 4 pts. They would continue to accrue pts for every year they do not draw and all pts would carry over once they turn 18. If while a youth they draw any permit, Bonus or Regular, their points would return to 0 pts going into the next years draw.

If you apply for a Deer permit (since all deer permits now become LE Deer permits) you would not be allowed to apply for LE Elk or LE Antelope. This would apply to both Resident and Non-Residents. The applications for OIL permits for Residents and Non-Residents would not be affected by this change. For those who obtain a deer permit they would still have the option to buy an Open Bull or Spike Bull permit over the counter. If down the road, demand begins to significantly increase and far exceed supply for Open Bull and Spike Bull permits, then a change to this option might need to be addressed. If you apply for LE Elk or LE Antelope and whether you are successful or not, you would have the option to buy an over the counter left over deer permit if any are available.

Thoughts?
Smokepole
 
Smokepole, overall I like it. It seems thought out and allows that though all deer tags are in one point pool, there are High-Demand and Low-Demand units that should be treated differently. (Colorado also differentiates between units requiring the most points to draw and has different drawing procedures for them.)

The only part of your plan that I'm iffy on is the 3 free points for youth that carry over after 18. Basically a kid that starts applying at 14 will have 7 points when he turns 18, if I understand correctly. I'm not saying that is bad, just that I'm undecided on it.

Grizzly
 
That's probably the most comprehensive suggestion to date.

You finally addresses the concerns of the elk and antelope applicants with regard to allowed or disallowed species an applicant could apply for in any single year.

You also addressed the Lifetime license holders, Their numbers are relatively few but the discussion is still relevant. However, you're still implying that all the deer units are equal, with the exception of points required to draw them under your one points system, but some are "more" equal than others because the lifetime holders cannot have them.

The issue with any change, including this version, is that it will further tear families apart. Some have elk points (so they would never be able to hunt deer with the family until they draw elk). Those who have deer points could continue to hunt General elk with the family. Where's the balance?

I'll say it again, If a one draw "all in or all out" points system is good enough for deer then why not elk too. The logjam is just as bad. Make it a full draw and if you want to hunt you'd better burn some points to do it.

Obviously all leftovers could be purchased (without losing points) after a determined date and I'm sure that the tags would get gobbled up so guys could hunt their home State every once in a while.

Your initial system still heavily favors guys with deer points while punishing those with elk points since they will never hunt deer until they draw yet the deer applicant can hunt elk every year regardless.

Unintended consequences yet again!

Zeke

PS: It really doesn't matter on what we agree. The F&G will do whatever they want. Very few on here are peddling the kind of influence to effect change.
 
Hey, don't give up now Grizzly!
I've seen some thought-provoking ideas spawned from our little discussion.
I agree with many of the ideas...but not all of them. Ultimately I will NOT be the one to decide what happens anyway but I'll continue to be the devil's advocate because there are many guys who love the status quo and think change for change's sake is the wrong path.
This has been one of the most civil discussions on MM. I'm glad to see the diverse ideas and no colossal collisions.
Zeke
 
Grizz - I suspect very few youth if any would actually forgo hunting deer sometime prior to age 18 but, that is a possibility.

Zeke - Having this issue out there being discussed, I just wanted to throw out some ideas. Over my life I've already seen dramatic changes via regulations in how I can hunt. These changes usually have been more limiting and costly. I don't see anything becoming more liberal. Going forward I only see more demand for our Big Game resources, which likely will require more changes. I knew when I posted this idea, that it wasn't even close to perfect (nothing will be).

Now to try and answer a couple of your concerns. A couple of your questions I think I already answered them in my post. As long as there is not a significant demand on Open and Spike bull permits, then yes deer hunters would have the advantage of hunting both deer and elk. However, someone who does not draw a LE Elk permit would still have the ability to go Open or Spike elk hunting. Someone who does not draw a Deer permit may not want to buy an over the counter left over permit. Thus an Elk hunter still goes Elk hunting but a Deer hunter doesn't get to hunt Deer. Family camping/hunting can still happen even though not every has a permit, I've seen it already. Yes, as you brought up there are unintended consequences and maybe someone else can figure out how to resolve them, if the UDWR does move into a one point system.

Smokepole
 
Smoke pole you can go smoke a bag of poles. Those who are not lifetime license holders can stay the hell out of what doesn't concern you. You all had your chance to pony up and didn't. Too bad. End of story. Bunch of jealous moaning women on here. Be careful opening Pandoras box.
 
Actually deadibob, DWR has no obligation to LL holders other than a deer tag. Upon issuance of the LL, and in the rules at the time, the DWR was clear to not specify a season or a unit. They also clearly stated they reserved the right to manage seasons and valid areas as they deemed fit.

If you don't believe me, go to the DWR office tomorrow and tell them you have a LL and you want a tag for the new November hunt in the GS units. I promise you one thing, your LL is not valid there, even though it is a GS area and always has been. DWR will tell you where and when you can use your LL... there is not a "grandfather" clause for units. If DWR tells LL they can hunt Box Elder every year or else apply for the new system with everybody else, then that is what you will be forced to do. DWR left themselves a world of discretion.

If you believe LL holders will somehow get in the front of the line for Henry's and Pauns tag, I think you may be in a for quite a shock.

The best case scenario for you would be to sue for the initial license cost and hope the judge doesn't subtract a prorated amount for the years you have used it. Though I bet he shows you the proclamation giving DWR discretion and says, "If you didn't the rules, why'd you agree to them?"

Have a good one.

Grizzly
 
Griz I know full well what the lifetime contract entails. I've had a copy for over 21 years. There is no out in which they could buy us out. No we aren't guaranteed where to hunt, but we are guaranteed a hunt unless the state completely closes the entire state. It specifically states that in our contract. I don't need or want to hunt the Henrys. I just need to hunt every year. Too bad more poor dumb baztards didn't believe there would be an end to over the counter tags.
 
That's my point, DWR could make every unit in the state LE except Box Elder and the LL holders would be forced there every year.

I have read the rules on LL because of the BS people are spewing on these forums about how they want one point system so they are guaranteed Henry's tags. It won't happen. I'm glad you aren't in that line of thinking too.

I also know there is not a buy-out clause, but the remedy I mentioned would be the best-case scenario if somebody wanted to push it to court.

My point is LL holders don't have nearly the clout that many of them think they do.

Talk to ya later.

Grizzly
 
We don't have clout but we do have a tag and that's all I need. At the same time I don't think they would put all 7,000 of us in a unit with 2 deer. Just an average ho hum general unit with at least 3 deer left.

I would rather have many hunts than 1 good hunt in my life. That's why I've had 4 Le elk hunts in the last 20 years if you count ar 301 tags. I can't play the bobcat bess game of 1 hunt in my life...maybe. No offense Bessy.
 
Deadi - Yes, I wish I had a Lifetime license but, at the time my financial situation could not take a $500 hit. I appreciate your position and passion. Although, I don't appreciate your attack. I was just submitting an idea for discussion.

Smokepole
 
Smoke I couldn't afford it at the time either. I was a working college student at the time. I also knew I couldn't not afford it. I pawned my favorite model 70 at the time for $500 at Cedar Post pawn in St George and slowly paid it off.

I apologize for the attack but surely you can understand how it would feel for others to try and change or determine your hunting future when it's already been determined and prepaid.

I would also like to clarify something that should be changed in the proclamation. It states: " if you are one of the lucky few who obtained a lifetime license..." luck had nothing to do with it and most thought it was crazy to spend that much at the time. The dwr was lucky to get our money at the time.
 
>We don't have clout but we
>do have a tag and
>that's all I need. At
>the same time I don't
>think they would put all
>7,000 of us in a
>unit with 2 deer. Just
>an average ho hum general
>unit with at least 3
>deer left.
>
>I would rather have many hunts
>than 1 good hunt in
>my life. That's why I've
>had 4 Le elk hunts
>in the last 20 years
>if you count ar 301
>tags. I can't play the
>bobcat bess game of 1
>hunt in my life...maybe. No
>offense Bessy.

Hey bob?

Really?

You're sayin I'm gonna get a Tag sometime in my life time?

They better Hurry!

Won't be long & it won't be worth the paper it's wrote on!









[font color="redhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMsueOnu0kY
 
deadibob, again repeated, you are only guaranteed a hunt in Utah NOT WHERE! Smokepole I like most of your ideas including the lifetime license holders. Go to the next step of approaching the BGB with it. Fight for it man.
 
>deadibob, again repeated, you are only
>guaranteed a hunt in Utah
>NOT WHERE! Smokepole I
>like most of your ideas
>including the lifetime license holders.
> Go to the next
>step of approaching the BGB
>with it. Fight for
>it man.


Show me where I once said I was guaranteed "WHERE" I can hunt. Pay attention cupcake.
 
Smoke,

In your proposal you had NRs not being able to apply for anything except deer.

WHY?

They do not affect the resident's draw in any way.

And everyone knows Utah want our $$$. The only reason they changed it 6 years ago and added the NR hunting license fee..

I started building general points as soon as Utah went with the 30 seperate units knowing there would be a gem in there somewhere.

Then they created the late muzzy hunts in general units this year and made them LE hunts. WTF????

Had i known about the late muzzy hunts last year, I would have hunted the general season last year to learn the unit. But felt I had to apply this year before it hit many's radar.

I haven't seen one NR complain about the system on here yet so how about we leave that one alone?
 
ok,
lots of talk on here about colorados system.
No mention of Nevada's system.
Take it from a guy who is predjudice towards Nevada's draw.
Nevada's system is best!!
Scrap it all and go Nevada's way LOL!
If you know how it works,
In Nevada guys with the most points are favored (squared points)
but everyone has a shot.
And you can put in for all species. Why Not?
I have 18 deer points in Utah and will not in my lifetime reach the pool to get that automatic tag in the Henries. Stupid system Utah.
 
Really? NV system is that much better? Ha
You have a shot in Utah just like you have a shot in NV. I wouldn't want to bet the farm on either system guaranteeing me a tag. LIke I always say " there are too few tags and too many applicants! There will always be tags that YOU WILL NOT HAVE IN YOUR LIFETIME".
"Them's the facts"......as we say it in Utah!
Oh, by the way, who's to say what system is best? The only thing that's bad is CHANGE to an existing system! How would you feel if we did away with the "squared" points and went with a flat draw? You'd feel fine if you had few points but you'd feel screwed if you had a pile! See, change doesn't feel so good now, huh?
Zeke
 
wanted to see if I could get your back up Zeke, and I did
boy was that easy.
I said right in my post i'm predjudice.
Just as you are, I get the impression.
haha settle down.
it's not the end of the world.
it's just hunting draws. :)
 
You did all that for lil old me?

Your post was all about seeing if you could push my buttons?

That's the craziest post I've ever read, NVdrhntr.

Yes, you got my attention by your ridiculous and admittedly prejudice comments. Congratulations, you did well!

JUST a hunting draw? Humm.....settle down? huh?

I thought we were debating the virtues and vices of various draw systems so no need to pat me on the head..... or poke with a stick unless you're serious.

Zeke
 
ok, ok, in all seriousness, I'll tell you why I prefer Nevada's
system to Utah's.
You said in response to my post that everyone has a shot in Utah
just like they do in Nevada. That is not true.
I have a chance of drawing every tag I put in for in Nevada.
I do not have that opportunity "Shot" in Utah.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but in Utah, if i'm a resident, I can only put in for 1 limited entry species (deer, elk, Antelope) and 1 once in a lifetime species. Then I can only draw 1 of those tags.
If I draw deer, i'm out for everything else.
Now, one could argue that that is good. If keeps the applicant pool lower and improves odds.
Of course Utah changed the rules for us non residents so we can put in for everything so they can collect our app fee's but still only draw 1 tag. but, that's another story.
So, just personal preference, I guess.
It just seems wrong to me that you put in for LE elk for 20 years and you can't put in for LE deer all that time. or vice versa
 
Yes, Utah's system is more restrictive on the number of species for which an applicant may apply. I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

BUT, again I'll stress that irrespective of point numbers, everyone has a shot at the tag for which he applies.... just like Nevada.... so it IS true.

I don't have a strong opinion on multiple species applications either way.... except to say that it gives an applicant better odds for his "pet" species since everyone has to choose.

One of our Texas MM brothers wishes it would be limited to one choice for NR hunters also since he can see the benefit if you are trying to be species-specific.

Like with any application procedural change: someone wins, someone loses. Pretty simple if you understand simple concepts!

Far too many guys think they want a procedural change when they're really looking for a management change!!!!!!!!!

Changing the drawing process will have zero affect on game management! With that fact established, any proposed change can only be seen as self-serving.

Zeke
 

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