Curious what others think.

JPblind

Active Member
Messages
370
Good thing they showed "evidence" of bull alive now you got a free pass to stick an arrow in another one. Think I would have punched my tag on that bloody arrow. Normally I go out with a few more cameras strapped to me for concentration when hunting.
 

yoteduster

Active Member
Messages
919
Well that's part of the problem with hunting today no ethics...they said that is what hunting is all about at the end of the video so they should've punched the tag and why put it on YouTube! I guess they want all the non- hunters to think none of us have any ethics...pretty sad lot of hunters imo
 

Buckhunter1955

Active Member
Messages
640
I saw a show the other day "Elk Camp" where the hunter shot a great bull 360+ with a muzzle loader right square in the shoulder. They could not find him but continued to hunt, and shot another great bull. I think it was in Arizona I don't know the regs. there but in my opinion the hunt was over when they drew blood. In Africa if you draw blood you pay for that animal just the same as if you killed that animal.
 

sticksender

Active Member
Messages
792
The arrow passed through, and the placement was in the guts, assuming the bull in the trail pic is the same bull. Anyone who's hunted at all knows that's a dead bull within a couple or three days or less. Amazing that they could do that last narrative video with a straight face.
 

Bux n Dux

Active Member
Messages
126
This is what you get when guys are hunting for Instagram and likes. That bull is dead. They know it’s dead. But paying clients cutting tags is all these guys are worried about.

side note. Look how long it took that arrow to travel ‘56’ yards. That is either the slowest hoyt on the market set at 50# or that bull was much farther than they want you to believe.
 
Messages
47
Let me address a few facts for all you that assume to know all...

I appreciate everyone's "knowledge" and I appreciate everyone of you for being experts on ethics. Heres a little insight...

The guy that shot the bull is continuing on his search for it, and refuses to kill anything else but this bull, whether he finds it alive still, or dead. When we filmed the ending of this video, we only saw 1 trail cam pic and a video on another trail cam where the bull was pretty far away, so at the time, it looked like it was a pretty high shot. Once we got the current pic, that's in the video, we concurred with what everyone else thought. May have clipped lungs, may of clipped liver. Gut shut? Possibly but unlikely due to the recovery of the arrow didnt have guts or a bad smell. But again, possible. The hunter is one of my guides, and I am the outfitter. If any of you truly knew anything about me, my outfit or my guides, would know that we dont really give a hell about "high paying clients" or "getting content". Most of us are Veterans, and I created this outfit to give Vets, LEO and First Responders a chance at going on a guided hunt, for far less than normal guided prices. I dont need my outfit to make me money.

My guide has already decided that he will notch his tag, but only after his season if he cant find the bull, or until he kills this bull. He isn't hunting for anything else, and we are hoping to have an update video or a part 2 of this bull hunt. Your opinions on the matter are opinions, and I respect every one of them. But dont get confused with how we are, how we operate, or our ethics. I'll back my guides and clients 100%, and if any of you ever have the chance to meet us or hunt with us, your "opinion" would surely change. We are a Veteran Operated Outfit, who caters to other vets and those less fortunate than most of you. If any of you want to have a discussion about this or want to run your mouths about my outfit, my name is Steven James, and you can look me up. I've been surrounded by starved wolves on many occassions, but they've always underestimated how hungry I am....
 

JB1975

Active Member
Messages
622
Appreciate you coming on here but your story now does not match up with the unethical and cavalier attitude of the commentators on the video. I suspect (my opinion only), had this thread not been here, you wouldn't be on here.
Also appreciate your service, but don't use that to sway opinions. Has zero to do with how the video played out.
 
Messages
47
They really wanted a video on youtube. Even if the bull was a dink and mortally wounded, they accomplished what they set out for. Legally they can keep hunting. Ethically they shouldn't. That bull is a dead bull.
He is still hunting... But hunting for either the same bull on the hoof, for a second chance, or for a carcass. Video on YouTube doesnt really mean all that much to me. But, hopefully there will be a part 2 of either a second chance or a recovery, to make all the professional critics happy.
 
Messages
47
Appreciate you coming on here but your story now does not match up with the unethical and cavalier attitude of the commentators on the video. I suspect (my opinion only), had this thread not been here, you wouldn't be on here.
Also appreciate your service, but don't use that to sway opinions. Has zero to do with how the video played out.
I respectfully disagree, and like I said, the end commentary was filmed before we had better and closer trail cam pics. We only got the one we posted because we left a note on the trail cam and asked the hunter to please let us know. Mistakes happen, and we don't shy away from critics. I am an Outfitter, this is hardly the first bunch of guys to talk trash on Outfitters, and it is part of the business.

As far as using my "service" to sway opinions, that was not the case. I was simply stating what we are about and who we are for those who only think we are here to make money off the rich.

I'll say it again, this video was filmed before we had the last trail cam pic, but I wasn't about to film a different ending, because that would be dishonest. At the time of filming, we were totally and 100% sure the bull was gonna live, and that's what we started. That all changed after the fact and I am proud of my guide for continuing on with the chase for this same bull. Hopefully we will have another video before the season end, with the same bull finally down. They are tough animals, but right now it's a chess match and we are hoping for a checkmate soon. I do appreciate your opinion, and I also appreciate everyone else's, as it shows the love of the sport and how much each one of these guys care about our wildlife. I can only hope to meet some of yall on the mountain, and I'd be honored to do so as well. If I saw my own video online, I'd be right there with y'all! But, I made a mistake for calling the outcome before all the facts, and it's a learning experience for not only me, but my guides and hopefully other hunters that watch! As soon as we get the part 2 done, I'll be sure to post a link!!
 

Cahunter805

Long Time Member
Messages
3,064
I respectfully disagree, and like I said, the end commentary was filmed before we had better and closer trail cam pics. We only got the one we posted because we left a note on the trail cam and asked the hunter to please let us know. Mistakes happen, and we don't shy away from critics. I am an Outfitter, this is hardly the first bunch of guys to talk trash on Outfitters, and it is part of the business.

As far as using my "service" to sway opinions, that was not the case. I was simply stating what we are about and who we are for those who only think we are here to make money off the rich.

I'll say it again, this video was filmed before we had the last trail cam pic, but I wasn't about to film a different ending, because that would be dishonest. At the time of filming, we were totally and 100% sure the bull was gonna live, and that's what we started. That all changed after the fact and I am proud of my guide for continuing on with the chase for this same bull. Hopefully we will have another video before the season end, with the same bull finally down. They are tough animals, but right now it's a chess match and we are hoping for a checkmate soon. I do appreciate your opinion, and I also appreciate everyone else's, as it shows the love of the sport and how much each one of these guys care about our wildlife. I can only hope to meet some of yall on the mountain, and I'd be honored to do so as well. If I saw my own video online, I'd be right there with y'all! But, I made a mistake for calling the outcome before all the facts, and it's a learning experience for not only me, but my guides and hopefully other hunters that watch! As soon as we get the part 2 done, I'll be sure to post a link!!
Steven
I have watched some of your videos since last year with your moms bull hunt. Heck of a bull!
I respect your dedication and thank you for your service. Everyone has made mistakes hunting and learning from them is how we grow.
Does your guide have a multi season tag or just archery? If archery I hope he can find the bull before ending of season.
I think most people are upset with the comment made in the video “ at least you get to keep hunting”. I sincerely hope he finds the bull.
 
Messages
47
Steven
I have watched some of your videos since last years with your mombull hunt. I respect your dedication and thank you for your service.
Does your guide have a multi season tag or just archery? If archery I hope he can find the bull before ending of season.
I think most people are upset with the comment made in the video “ at least you get to keep hunting”. I sincerely hope he finds the bull.
Hey man, he just has the archery tag. I understand the comment I made didnt look good, and after I watched it, I realized the whole video cuts short for some reason. About a minute later I actually reiterated on that comment, and said that he gets to keep hunting for the same bull, I am just too lazy to take the current video down and re upload the full thing haha. But, he is adamant about finding the bull dead, or to get another opportunity on him. He saw him on the hoof a few days after the video, and wasnt able to get back on him before dark. He is active duty still, and pulled some unpaid leave just so he can stay on the mountain and finish out the hunt for the bull. I fully own up to calling the outcome before we had all the facts for sure. Made me look arrogant, but it has been humbling and a learning experience, which is fine by me!
 

MilliGun

Active Member
Messages
160
Appreciate you coming on here but your story now does not match up with the unethical and cavalier attitude of the commentators on the video. I suspect (my opinion only), had this thread not been here, you wouldn't be on here.
Also appreciate your service, but don't use that to sway opinions. Has zero to do with how the video played out.
Is he a Vet? I’m all American and so is family that has served. But my family will never use that as a “get a freebie “ card. It was a profession at the time and a lifestyle they chose. Just like any other job.

back to the video…. You would do yourself and company a service by deleting it. It overweight slob hunting.
 
Messages
47
Is he a Vet? I’m all American and so is family that has served. But my family will never use that as a “get a freebie “ card. It was a profession at the time and a lifestyle they chose. Just like any other job.

back to the video…. You would do yourself and company a service by deleting it. It overweight slob hunting.
Hes active duty. 18.5 years in
 
Messages
47
Is he a Vet? I’m all American and so is family that has served. But my family will never use that as a “get a freebie “ card. It was a profession at the time and a lifestyle they chose. Just like any other job.

back to the video…. You would do yourself and company a service by deleting it. It overweight slob hunting.
Hes active duty. 18.5 years in
Nah, I wont delete it. We arent Primos where we only post kill vids. We post the ups and downs. The good, bad and ugly. We will have a part 2 in the future, so until then, everyone can continue to have their professional opinions and I'll respect each one of them.
 

DBG3285

Active Member
Messages
758
Hello Steven,

I commend your efforts in the initial attempt at recovery. As being the person that obviously asked the question on this forum I have a question for you, because it’s why I asked what others thought:

1- Being very familiar with anatomy, could you please explain the idea of this “no mans land” that you refer to in the video?

My personal experience is there is not a “void” in the guts, I know there is a “void” up by the shoulder……. I believe as sportsman (especially if you are a guide) it is our obligation for a ethical kill. While I understand hunting (I have made very similar mistakes) there are mistakes, I believe we need to be honest, this notion of the “void” will allow others to justify shooting multiple animals. Your video gives the impression that bull will live a long happy life and you guys will hunt another bull.
 
Messages
47
Hello Steven,

I commend your efforts in the initial attempt at recovery. As being the person that obviously asked the question on this forum I have a question for you, because it’s why I asked what others thought:

1- Being very familiar with anatomy, could you please explain the idea of this “no mans land” that you refer to in the video?

My personal experience is there is not a “void” in the guts, I know there is a “void” up by the shoulder……. I believe as sportsman (especially if you are a guide) it is our obligation for a ethical kill. While I understand hunting (I have made very similar mistakes) there are mistakes, I believe we need to be honest, this notion of the “void” will allow others to justify shooting multiple animals. Your video gives the impression that bull will live a long happy life and you guys will hunt another bull.
I appreciate your input man! I've stated in other comments that I made a mistake when I initially saw the first trail cam pic and vid. I originally thought it was higher up on his body, near the back straps. The pic on the video shows the exit wound, not the entry. I personally watched the shot and thought it looked great, but obviously it wasnt. We filmed the ending before we saw other pics of the bull. The guide that shot the bull has been searching and hunting for the same bull ever since, passing up much bigger bulls in the meantime.

As far as Elk anatomy, there are dead man's space, no zones, bullmuda triangles, etc. One is high above the shoulder which everyone knows. The smallest that most forget or dont know about, is a small triangle, mid body and high, right between the top back of the lungs, and right before the top of the liver. I originally thought he hit that spot, but that was until I saw the pic in the vid, which shows the exit wound clear. It was a premature callout and assumption. I've already owned up for it. At this point I don't really care what anyone thinks of my outfit or myself. Those that know me, which ain't just a few, know me alot better than the keyboardies on Monster Muleys. Ain't much more I can do than own up to what I said. My guide has proven his ethics and skills by continuing to hunt after the same bull. I guarantee there are alot more guys that would move on and shoot something else, and I've personally seen guys do it. Only reason our video is even a topic is solely because I'm an outfit. There are currently multiple videos on YouTube of almost this exact scenario, but no keyboard warriors are saying anything about that. This ain't my first time on MM. I left a couple years ago because of all the trash talk people did and still do, over petty things like road hunters, killing 2 points, horns vs antlers, etc. I invite anyone willing to come hunt with me, and opinions will differ greatly.
 

roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
3,434
Let me address a few facts for all you that assume to know all...

I appreciate everyone's "knowledge" and I appreciate everyone of you for being experts on ethics. Heres a little insight...

The guy that shot the bull is continuing on his search for it, and refuses to kill anything else but this bull, whether he finds it alive still, or dead. When we filmed the ending of this video, we only saw 1 trail cam pic and a video on another trail cam where the bull was pretty far away, so at the time, it looked like it was a pretty high shot. Once we got the current pic, that's in the video, we concurred with what everyone else thought. May have clipped lungs, may of clipped liver. Gut shut? Possibly but unlikely due to the recovery of the arrow didnt have guts or a bad smell. But again, possible. The hunter is one of my guides, and I am the outfitter. If any of you truly knew anything about me, my outfit or my guides, would know that we dont really give a hell about "high paying clients" or "getting content". Most of us are Veterans, and I created this outfit to give Vets, LEO and First Responders a chance at going on a guided hunt, for far less than normal guided prices. I dont need my outfit to make me money.

My guide has already decided that he will notch his tag, but only after his season if he cant find the bull, or until he kills this bull. He isn't hunting for anything else, and we are hoping to have an update video or a part 2 of this bull hunt. Your opinions on the matter are opinions, and I respect every one of them. But dont get confused with how we are, how we operate, or our ethics. I'll back my guides and clients 100%, and if any of you ever have the chance to meet us or hunt with us, your "opinion" would surely change. We are a Veteran Operated Outfit, who caters to other vets and those less fortunate than most of you. If any of you want to have a discussion about this or want to run your mouths about my outfit, my name is Steven James, and you can look me up. I've been surrounded by starved wolves on many occassions, but they've always underestimated how hungry I am....

First of all, stop playing the Vet card, it doesn't give you a free pass. Second whoever the guy is that was the commentator doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. There is no such thing as "no man's land".

Screen your video before airing it...
 

DBG3285

Active Member
Messages
758
I appreciate your input man! I've stated in other comments that I made a mistake when I initially saw the first trail cam pic and vid. I originally thought it was higher up on his body, near the back straps. The pic on the video shows the exit wound, not the entry. I personally watched the shot and thought it looked great, but obviously it wasnt. We filmed the ending before we saw other pics of the bull. The guide that shot the bull has been searching and hunting for the same bull ever since, passing up much bigger bulls in the meantime.

As far as Elk anatomy, there are dead man's space, no zones, bullmuda triangles, etc. One is high above the shoulder which everyone knows. The smallest that most forget or dont know about, is a small triangle, mid body and high, right between the top back of the lungs, and right before the top of the liver. I originally thought he hit that spot, but that was until I saw the pic in the vid, which shows the exit wound clear. It was a premature callout and assumption. I've already owned up for it. At this point I don't really care what anyone thinks of my outfit or myself. Those that know me, which ain't just a few, know me alot better than the keyboardies on Monster Muleys. Ain't much more I can do than own up to what I said. My guide has proven his ethics and skills by continuing to hunt after the same bull. I guarantee there are alot more guys that would move on and shoot something else, and I've personally seen guys do it. Only reason our video is even a topic is solely because I'm an outfit. There are currently multiple videos on YouTube of almost this exact scenario, but no keyboard warriors are saying anything about that. This ain't my first time on MM. I left a couple years ago because of all the trash talk people did and still do, over petty things like road hunters, killing 2 points, horns vs antlers, etc. I invite anyone willing to come hunt with me, and opinions will differ greatly.
Steve,

I can promise you that I would happily bring this topic up regardless of if you were a guide or not!

Although I agree the optics are way worse coming from a guide. We have seen many instances of guides and questionable decisions/ court cases, especially as the “social media” trend has risen.

Considering the social media presence that most outfits have is greater then the “average joe”, your actions impact the perception of the sport more.

But if you can provide links I would be happy to bring it to the attention of here and other forums, the same I have with your video.

This is in no way meant to be a drag you/your outfit through the mud thing. But it is here to discuss ethics and optics. It’s a conversation that has to be had. We are not a “pack of hungry wolves” as you so eloquently stated. It can be a civil conversation about ethics and optics.

I am sure I will see you on the hill again as I have for the last many years and outfits you have been associated with.

Kind regards Steve.
 

DeerHunter53

Very Active Member
Messages
2,745
When I went on a guided elk hunt and was in camp the first day the guides told both myself and my son if you shoot and don't hit or get the bull with that shot you are done. So make sure it is the one you want when you shoot as it will be the only one period.

I took that to heart and passed on a 7x7 the first night at dusk because I wasn't sure I could make the shot and then find him in the dark. I ended up with a nice 6x6 the last day. Wasn't as big but I am still glad I made choice I did.
 
Messages
47
First of all, stop playing the Vet card, it doesn't give you a free pass. Second whoever the guy is that was the commentator doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. There is no such thing as "no man's land".

Screen your video before airing it...
First of all, do not tell me what to do. You don't know me keyboard warrior. Go read some other comments that address the stupidity of your response, and then come on back and we can have an adult conversation.
 

roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
3,434
First of all, do not tell me what to do. You don't know me keyboard warrior. Go read some other comments that address the stupidity of your response, and then come on back and we can have an adult conversation.
Then why even bring it up? It has nothing to do with making a poor shot and abandoning the search or ending the hunt. Only reason we know they kept looking or haven't shot another animal is because you said so. Your "ambassador", on film, said that the good news is the hunter gets to keep hunting.

Too many people bring up the veteran/LEO/first responder career choice to set the stage for something else. It would be like someone saying they're running a business for school teachers or bank tellers. Completely irrelevant for the discussion.

When you provide a public service in consideration of and then televise it, yeah, people get to tell you what to do and "no man's land" still doesn't exist.
 
Messages
47
Let me address some stuff...

You should go read through all the other comments. Itll answer alot of the "assumptions" you've made.

I am not playing the Vet card. I simply stated I was a Veteran owned outfit, who caters to other vets and those who typically cant afford a guided hunt, that comment was in response to some other idiot on here who figured it was a client hunt that was paid for. A couple nimble minded folks like yourself assume I was playing some Vet card for recognition. Let me clear that up. My service to this country, the sacrifices I made are enough recognition for me to not have to pull the Vet card. So quit assuming things you dont have a clue about. Another thing, the commentator in the video, the tatted up dude with the beard, that is me. I've already addressed this comment about the keep hunting thing, but I'll do so again since you assume the preface of the comment. He does get to keep hunting. I've pushed him to keep hunting. But he as well as our entire outfit is set on him hunting the same bull, whether he finds it dead or alive. Hes passed up multiple bulls since. So take the comment how you want it, I really dont care. I'll be on the mountain regardless, hunting full time.

Also, there is a no man's land shot on an elk. So I'm assuming you havent killed very many. Do some research on it before commenting back!

If you really want to know who I am and what I am about, go on fb, find a Utah hunting page, mention my name and that I am some idiot outfitter that doesnt know what I'm doing or talking about. Have a great day. I have no need to respond to anymore petty ass people. I have plenty of hunts this season I need to focus on.
 
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47
If you shoot and completely miss, you’re done hunting? That’s the dumbest thing I’ve read all week. And there’s been some really dumb things posted on MM this week
Agreed brother! MM has always had the same professional opinion hunters on it haha.

On a side note, I find it hilarious that people are quick to jump on the keyboard warrior stuff over a comment I made in a video, when just in the past 2 weeks there have been 4 poaching incidents, a well known person got caught baiting bears with alcohol laced watermelons, 2 people shot cattle thinking they were elk, and a californian shot a calf moose thinking it was a deer. But my premature comment I owned up to is far worse all because we are an Outfit. Peoples priorities are funny.
 

JB1975

Active Member
Messages
622
Agreed brother! MM has always had the same professional opinion hunters on it haha.

On a side note, I find it hilarious that people are quick to jump on the keyboard warrior stuff over a comment I made in a video, when just in the past 2 weeks there have been 4 poaching incidents, a well known person got caught baiting bears with alcohol laced watermelons, 2 people shot cattle thinking they were elk, and a californian shot a calf moose thinking it was a deer. But my premature comment I owned up to is far worse all because we are an Outfit. Peoples priorities are funny.
Says the keyboard warrior. If you are going to post ridiculous video/commentary online, better be ready for criticism. Completely justified in this case.
 

elkhunterUT

Very Active Member
Messages
1,652
Agreed brother! MM has always had the same professional opinion hunters on it haha.

On a side note, I find it hilarious that people are quick to jump on the keyboard warrior stuff over a comment I made in a video, when just in the past 2 weeks there have been 4 poaching incidents, a well known person got caught baiting bears with alcohol laced watermelons, 2 people shot cattle thinking they were elk, and a californian shot a calf moose thinking it was a deer. But my premature comment I owned up to is far worse all because we are an Outfit. Peoples priorities are funny.
Guys that actually know what they are talking about jumped on your comment because it was asinine and completely and unequivocally incorrect. It has nothing to do with the fact that you are an "outfitter/guide" or a youtube warrior.

You have owned up to your stupid comments and film and hopefully learned something, so from my perspective it is all good.
 

DBG3285

Active Member
Messages
758
I will be the first to admit I know mr. James. We have both met while hunting and “guiding” (I am not registered and do not charge money) he has in my interactions always been a stand up guy.

I think the “no mans land” and “the good news is you get to keep hunting” really threw me off from my other interactions.

I posted this to have a conversation about the ethics and optics of this video. I believe mr. James when he says they are focusing on that bull, and I commend him for coming on here and speaking his piece, even if his attitude has been cantankerous.

I guess we will see how it all turns out.
 

feddoc

Long Time Member
Messages
5,620
Agreed brother! MM has always had the same professional opinion hunters on it haha.

On a side note, I find it hilarious that people are quick to jump on the keyboard warrior stuff over a comment I made in a video, when just in the past 2 weeks there have been 4 poaching incidents, a well known person got caught baiting bears with alcohol laced watermelons, 2 people shot cattle thinking they were elk, and a californian shot a calf moose thinking it was a deer. But my premature comment I owned up to is far worse all because we are an Outfit. Peoples priorities are funny.
Are those other incidents on youtube?
 

DeerHunter53

Very Active Member
Messages
2,745
Agreed brother! MM has always had the same professional opinion hunters on it haha.

On a side note, I find it hilarious that people are quick to jump on the keyboard warrior stuff over a comment I made in a video, when just in the past 2 weeks there have been 4 poaching incidents, a well known person got caught baiting bears with alcohol laced watermelons, 2 people shot cattle thinking they were elk, and a californian shot a calf moose thinking it was a deer. But my premature comment I owned up to is far worse all because we are an Outfit. Peoples priorities are funny.
Was that a "Guide" professional opinion hunter statement you said on your video. And now on here. You were pretty good at jumping on the keyboard as well.
When you are guilty you always try to shed a bad light on someone else to cover your butt.
The video says it all, if you don't like it next time "edit" your videos before posting them on a public internet site. Ha Ha
 
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47
is this no mans land immune to infections that can potentially be fatal, as well?
Definitely not immune. If guys took the time to read through all my comments, I have already stated and owned up to the comment I made. I made the comment before I saw the closer view trail cam shot. The first one I saw was a little further away, and was the entry shot. It looked way higher than the current shot of the exit wound. I ate my words, and welcome the humility. I'm not the first to make that mistake, wont be the last. My guide has put in more time trying to find and kill this same bull, or find a body than most would ever, so his dedication to the pursuit shows the true character of our ethics. I could delete the whole video, post a different version of the same thing and only those on here would know the difference. But I am the type that doesnt hide from my flaws, and hopefully it's a learning experience for everyone, as I learned a lesson myself. I made a mistake, I apologize for my cantankerous responses, assumptions and commentary on my video, and I'll continue to better myself as a hunter, Guide, Outfitter and sportsman! I appreciate everyone's feedback. This one comment on that video is no reflection of our abilities and judgement. I have some kick ass guides that bust their butts on the mountain, and we will continue focusing on being an outfit dedicated to those who serve our communities and our country!
 
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47
Was that a "Guide" professional opinion hunter statement you said on your video. And now on here. You were pretty good at jumping on the keyboard as well.
When you are guilty you always try to shed a bad light on someone else to cover your butt.
The video says it all, if you don't like it next time "edit" your videos before posting them on a public internet site. Ha Ha
I owned up to what I said. Read through the comments and you'll see. It's getting tiresome having to explain the same thing over and over. I've spoke my statement, I gotta get back to focusing on more important things. I appreciate your comment though! Hope you have a good season!
 

DeerHunter53

Very Active Member
Messages
2,745
If you shoot and completely miss, you’re done hunting? That’s the dumbest thing I’ve read all week. And there’s been some really dumb things posted on MM this week
Might be dumb but that is their rules if you can't prove you missed then they considered you done... and in the case of this video you are done hunting.
 
Messages
47
Guys that actually know what they are talking about jumped on your comment because it was asinine and completely and unequivocally incorrect. It has nothing to do with the fact that you are an "outfitter/guide" or a youtube warrior.

You have owned up to your stupid comments and film and hopefully learned something, so from my perspective it is all good.
👊 Thanks man, it ain't easy owning up to mistakes, but I would rather. Hope you have a great season and good luck this fall!!
 
Messages
47
Might be dumb but that is their rules if you can't prove you missed then they considered you done... and in the case of this video you are done hunting.
My guide wont be done hunting until he finds this bull or gets a second chance at it. Hes passed up much larger bulls in Hope's of finishing what he started. Hes got the rest of the day to do so
 

DeerHunter53

Very Active Member
Messages
2,745
I owned up to what I said. Read through the comments and you'll see. It's getting tiresome having to explain the same thing over and over. I've spoke my statement, I gotta get back to focusing on more important things. I appreciate your comment though! Hope you have a good season!
I read all of your comments and I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about you jumping right in with Dux and then bringing up a bunch of other incidents of poaching and an Californian shooting a calf moose thinking it was a deer. That particular story is older than me and I'm old
 
Messages
47
Oh it happens every year. The specific incident I said about the moose happened this season on our Our ogden unit. I know there have been plenty of moose killed by accident, which blows me away. But, I'm not trying to hide my idiocracy behind others. It's a lessened learned, I'll move on and be better in the future! Thanks for replying brother! I appreciate the criticism and feedback. I'm glad guys are still passionate about our sport. I apologize for my words. My actions on the mountain are much better, I promise.
 

Zeke

Long Time Member
Messages
9,616
There ARE misplaced shots in hunting. Period. How we execute tactics (conduct ourselves) and what we say following the event is critical IMHO.
No scenario is perfect but I hope for the best possible outcome for you all, at this point.
IF I made that shot and IF I made those comments, the last thing I'd do is put it on the hero-web for all to see..., but I'm not telling you what to do but rather reflecting on what I'd have done.

"no man's land" = dead elk

Just my 2 cents, for free,
Zeke
 
Messages
47
There ARE misplaced shots in hunting. Period. How we execute tactics (conduct ourselves) and what we say following the event is critical IMHO.
No scenario is perfect but I hope for the best possible outcome for you all, at this point.
IF I made that shot and IF I made those comments, the last thing I'd do is put it on the hero-web for all to see..., but I'm not telling you what to do but rather reflecting on what I'd have done.

"no man's land" = dead elk

Just my 2 cents, for free,
Zeke
Appreciate the feedback brother! Thank you and good luck this season!!
 

mrc

Member
Messages
81
Maybe some “catfishing”here. Nobody would insert that picture right before the hunter says the bull will be ”sore” for a couple of days.
 
Messages
47
Shouldn't you be out looking for a mortally wounded bull with your hunter/employee instead of bitchin on the internet?
No, My guide has plenty of help, and they've been after this bull since he shot it. I have other clients and other priorities, but thanks for the comment. Shouldn't you be focused on your day job instead of bitchin on the internet?
 

mta5672

Active Member
Messages
560
There ARE misplaced shots in hunting. Period. How we execute tactics (conduct ourselves) and what we say following the event is critical IMHO.
No scenario is perfect but I hope for the best possible outcome for you all, at this point.
IF I made that shot and IF I made those comments, the last thing I'd do is put it on the hero-web for all to see..., but I'm not telling you what to do but rather reflecting on what I'd have done.

"no man's land" = dead elk

Just my 2 cents, for free,
Zeke
Well said Zeke...
 

BrianID

Very Active Member
Messages
1,813
steven-james-lro,

You are guilting of putting up a bad video on youtube. It really should be edited or updated with a part 2 with a better explanation. I'm sure you and your guide are great people but the video is just bad. Things don't go as planed always and it looks like both of you are doing your best to correct your mistakes. I hope he finds the bull.
20 years ago I shot a bull in that exact spot and arrow exited. I was fortunately able to put my tag on that bull an hour after the bad shot. Elk are tough animals and recover more often than we expect but I agree that is likely a dead bull. I know a guy that killed an elk after hitting it by the hoof with his arrow. It didn't stop bleeding from the small artery in his lower leg and bleed to death after going a couple hundred yards and leaving a solid blood trail.
 

Old Cowboy

Active Member
Messages
130
No, My guide has plenty of help, and they've been after this bull since he shot it. I have other clients and other priorities, but thanks for the comment. Shouldn't you be focused on your day job instead of bitchin on the internet?
You are obviously a slow learner. You just about had the fire put out and then you threw some more fuel on it. You're to busy to help your hunter because you have other clients and priorities but have time to play on the internet. Twenty posts since about 5 O'clock yesterday.
 

roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
3,434
I am not playing the Vet card. I simply stated I was a Veteran owned outfit,

Also, there is a no man's land shot on an elk. So I'm assuming you havent killed very many. Do some research on it before commenting back!

Being a veteran is still irrelevant to the thread.

No man's land still doesn't exist. Any arrow entering the chest cavity or abdominal region will hit something. Some wounds aren't as fatal or take a long time to kill. The game cam pic shows the hit to be in the upper stomach region.

I can promise you, I've seen more wounds on and dead elk than you have...
 

MilliGun

Active Member
Messages
160
Then why even bring it up? It has nothing to do with making a poor shot and abandoning the search or ending the hunt. Only reason we know they kept looking or haven't shot another animal is because you said so. Your "ambassador", on film, said that the good news is the hunter gets to keep hunting.

Too many people bring up the veteran/LEO/first responder career choice to set the stage for something else. It would be like someone saying they're running a business for school teachers or bank tellers. Completely irrelevant for the discussion.

When you provide a public service in consideration of and then televise it, yeah, people get to tell you what to do and "no man's land" still doesn't exist.
This post is spot on!
 

MilliGun

Active Member
Messages
160
First of all, do not tell me what to do. You don't know me keyboard warrior. Go read some other comments that address the stupidity of your response, and then come on back and we can have an adult conversation.
Triggered, he is not right in the head. His ears are still ringing from the A-10 flying over. Vets of today are so into theirselves any old school vet wouldn’t even bring it up. For a good reason. Welcome to the brotherhood.
Next he is going to talk about a hard year, just got back, hasn’t had time to scout and looking for a honey hole.

I have attached bullzone triangle and No-mans land shots for reference so younger hunters know when they stick a bull they can move on because it won’t die in general. 🤔

0832614D-A0A3-4240-8A18-20C434E2D183.jpeg
 
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johnnycake

Active Member
Messages
154
For what its worth, the last cow I shot was an old gal teeth worn flat with her gums. My dad shot her very healthy calf. When we were cleaning my cow we noticed a mass of scar tissue in her abdomen, roughly where the injury in the OP's video shows. It was all healed up and barely noticeable on the hide, but had a fist sized clump of cartilage and tissue lumped up under the hide on the far side with what looked like a .30 caliber bullet in the middle. That bullet had been there for a while, well before she got pregnant and gave birth to a healthy calf.

Could that bull survive? It is possible I think. Is it likely? Probably not IMO.
 

roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
3,434
For what its worth, the last cow I shot was an old gal teeth worn flat with her gums. My dad shot her very healthy calf. When we were cleaning my cow we noticed a mass of scar tissue in her abdomen, roughly where the injury in the OP's video shows. It was all healed up and barely noticeable on the hide, but had a fist sized clump of cartilage and tissue lumped up under the hide on the far side with what looked like a .30 caliber bullet in the middle. That bullet had been there for a while, well before she got pregnant and gave birth to a healthy calf.

Could that bull survive? It is possible I think. Is it likely? Probably not IMO.

An animal can survive quite well with only one hit lung. A lung will heal up if hit high and sometimes if hit really low. High lung shots bleed very little, but the animal dies just the same.

Bow shot animals die from severe bleeding and eventually cardiac failure. If they don't bleed, either internally or externally, they have a good chance of surviving.

Still doesn't mean "no man's land" exists except for the educational schematic above based on the thread's documentary film...
 

johnnycake

Active Member
Messages
154
An animal can survive quite well with only one hit lung. A lung will heal up if hit high and sometimes if hit really low. High lung shots bleed very little, but the animal dies just the same.

Bow shot animals die from severe bleeding and eventually cardiac failure. If they don't bleed, either internally or externally, they have a good chance of surviving.

Still doesn't mean "no man's land" exists except for the educational schematic above based on the thread's documentary film...
Never said it did. But my anecdotal experience with that cow proved to me that a gut shot elk can not only survive, but have a calf afterwards
 

roadrunner

Long Time Member
Messages
3,434
Never said it did. But my anecdotal experience with that cow proved to me that a gut shot elk can not only survive, but have a calf afterwards

Comment was adding to your experience, not detracting from it. A poorly hit animal çan indeed survive.

The "expert" on the video called it no man's land implying a void and nothing was hit when obviously something was.
 

Bluehair

Long Time Member
Messages
4,764
Triggered, he is not right in the head. His ears are still ringing from the A-10 flying over. Vets of today are so into theirselves any old school vet wouldn’t even bring it up. For a good reason. Welcome to the brotherhood.
Next he is going to talk about a hard year, just got back, hasn’t had time to scout and looking for a honey hole.

I have attached bullzone triangle and No-mans land shots for reference so younger hunters know when they stick a bull they can move on because it won’t die in general. 🤔

View attachment 52658
Careful with that rear leg no-mans land diagram. There was a bull in the state book in Az (Chappel?) who was shot in the lower leg and died.

So if you want to keep on shootin’ and filmin’, you might want to stick to the guts. :rolleyes:
 

MilliGun

Active Member
Messages
160
Careful with that rear leg no-mans land diagram. There was a bull in the state book in Az (Chappel?) who was shot in the lower leg and died.

So if you want to keep on shootin’ and filmin’, you might want to stick to the guts. :rolleyes:
Agreed, I have seen many animals die from legs and other no-mans land shots. I have done a few myself. They are usually followed up by another shot.
Since those times I have purchased a 6.5 Creedmoor and have had zero losses due to the energy my hand loads carry.
 

mossback50cal

Active Member
Messages
932
Ran across this on the YouTube.

dead bull or not?




if you don’t want to watch it all, it shows the bull/ shot placement at 8:19
First thoughts on the video, that arrow looks very wobbly. Looks like the bow is out of tune. Possibly why the hit is the way it is. There is no "no mans" land where that wound is. Smell on an arrow doesn't mean there was no gut hit. In my opinion, I would never use these guides. From the comments on the video, to the excuses made here.
 

bonepicker

Very Active Member
Messages
1,293
Nah, didn’t you hear the expert guide? “the good news is, you get to keep on hunting! ….He’ll be sore for a few days and jump right back into the herd.” 🙄
 

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