CWD Tag Increases

Soj51hopeful said:
I read in a recent RMEF article some folks developed a live cervid test for cwd.
Click to expand...
We have been doing love test on radio collared deer in Colorado for years. It required a little piece of the deer from around the anus. We would then clean the cut area and let them go. If they weee positive then the next trapping we would cull them!
 
elks96 said:
We have been doing love test on radio collared deer in Colorado for years. It required a little piece of the deer from around the anus. We would then clean the cut area and let them go. If they weee positive then the next trapping we would cull them!
Click to expand...
That’s great! The article I read said this new test could simply use droppings of the animal into a liquid vile and depending on what color the liquid turns would indicate pos or neg for cwd within seconds. Don’t know how practical it would be for researchers but seems like a useful tool.
 
Within the last year we have found the antemortem rectal test is garbage and has probably permited and facilitated the spread of the disease in Texas.

I don't know anything about the stool test you are talking about but I hope it works and is as easy as you say.
 
It doesn't take a rocket=scientist and millions of $ to figure out that predators are a perfect scenario for targeting and controlling the low % of truly sick CWD animals and maintain the healthy mule deer that exist.

Not only do predators target weak animals, they can mitigate the impact of disease outbreaks, experts say. Further, by removing sick prey species, predators could make herds more resilient, stronger, and less susceptible to disease.

Although wolf introductions are controversial, there are quite a few articles stating that wolves are the perfect predators for controlling CWD. Personally, I believe the combination of coyotes, black bear, grizz, mtn lions that already exist in most areas potentially are great at controlling the extremely low number of truly sick deer that exist in herds without wolves present. The reason I am confident when I say this is there are literally millions of hunters and outdoorsman across the country that spend hours upon hours scouting and hunting. My guess is that almost all of them have never seen a truly sick deer or other big game animal with CWD....even in CWD hotspots?

Human culling and harvesting is non-selective and can create catastrophic impacts to the healthy deer herds for years to come with little impact to CWD prions that exist for years upon years in the soil.

Hopefully this Fed $ will fund viable field research that proves to game biologists once and for all that predators that already exist are key for controlling CWD and large scale culling across the country is senseless.
 
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jims said:
It doesn't take a rocket=scientist and millions of $ to figure out that predators are a perfect scenario for targeting and controlling the low % of truly sick CWD animals and maintain the healthy mule deer that exist.

Not only do predators target weak animals, they can mitigate the impact of disease outbreaks, experts say. Further, by removing sick prey species, predators could make herds more resilient, stronger, and less susceptible to disease.

Although wolf introductions are controversial, there are quite a few articles stating that wolves are the perfect predators for controlling CWD. Personally, I believe the combination of coyotes, black bear, grizz, mtn lions that already exist in most areas potentially are great at controlling the extremely low number of truly sick deer that exist in herds without wolves present. The reason I am confident when I say this is there are literally millions of hunters and outdoorsman across the country that spend hours upon hours scouting and hunting. My guess is that almost all of them have never seen a truly sick deer or other big game animal with CWD....even in CWD hotspots?

Human culling and harvesting is non-selective and can create catastrophic impacts to the healthy deer herds for years to come with little impact to CWD prions that exist for years upon years in the soil.

Hopefully this Fed $ will fund viable field research that proves to game biologists once and for all that predators that already exist are key for controlling CWD and large scale culling across the country is senseless.
Click to expand...
Jims,

With all due respect, and I do mean with all due respect, that last post was such smelly bullshine it almost sounds like an antihunter wrote it.

I appreciate some of your wildlife posts but that is propaganda garbage.
 
We had a statewide task for on CWD in Wyoming. And we will have a more local one in the Laramie Range starting soon. The problem is the G&F folks from all states seem to have had a big dose of Kool-Aid from the same flask. The only answer or alternative I hear from WY G&F and CO DOW is "kill them all".

There are other alternatives. I still contend CWD is very closely related to scrapie in sheep (another spongiform encephalopathy) and the answer there was a genetic test and rams that had the proper alleles were selected to do the breeding. And scrapie is no longer major concern. That genome research should be an area of emphasis in mule deer and other cervids.

There are many alternatives and I hope managers and researchers look with an open mind for a long-term solution to this problem.

The "kill them all" response as the only alternative is just not going to work for landowners in SE Wyoming where nearly all lands are deeded. Collaboration will be much better received.
 
Tristate, do you agree that it's possible that predators that currently exist (coyotes, lions, bear) are capable of selectively killing the few CWD sick deer that are present? That's pretty much the point I was making in my last post. Predators are a pretty lethal means of culling out sick deer. Why not just let them do the work? Sure makes a heck of a lot of sense to me rather than mass culling!
 
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jims said:
Tristate, do you agree that it's possible that predators that currently exist (coyotes, lions, bear) are capable of selectively killing the few CWD sick deer that are present? That's pretty much the point I was making in my last post. Predators are a pretty lethal means of culling out sick deer. Why not just let them do the work? Sure makes a heck of a lot of sense to me rather than mass culling!
Click to expand...
No. Predators are not "selectors". They are opportunists.

If a perfectly healthy deer is 20 yards from mountain lion and a cwd infected deer is standing 60 yards away THE CLOSEST DEER is getting smoked.

Predators have no idea if a deer is carrying cwd in most cases. Most deer survive extended periods of time without showing any signs of cwd infection. Mountain lions, wolves, and coyotes have the ability to kill perfectly healthy deer. They don't need to hunt specifically for weak deer.

What happens when all the sick deer are killed and eaten? I guess the wolves and lions and coyotes take up veganism???? Helllllllll no. They eat healthy deer.

Get real. Have you ever spent any time watching studying and hunting predators yourself? Quit dressing them up like they are some type of special canid and felid veterinarians roaming the mountains weeding out the sick animals and giving out free passes and lollipops to healthy animals.

THEY ARE OPPORTUNISTS.
 
Don't Know If A Lion would Know If an Animal Had CWD or Not?

But A Lion Is Gonna Eat a Healthy Animal When Able & Possible!

Ya!

There Are Exceptions to The Rule!
 
Tristate, I guess we'll agree to disagree. You may not believe me but I'm around deer and coyotes every day at work. I also live in the hot-bed of CWD....where it all started years and years ago! I find freshly killed deer bones but haven't seen a truly sick CWD deer in years. The deer I see every day are super healthy even in a hot-bed CWD area. Giant slaughtering/culling programs are worthless and have done nothing even though this area has had CWD since it's first discovery in Colo.

If there's a sick and also a healthy deer living in the same area the sick deer will likely be killed by coyotes in a matter of days. My guess is that a truly sick CWD deer will likely end up drifting off by themselves where they are pretty easy pickings for predators. I have no doubt that coyotes can figure out in a hurry that a sick deer with it's head held low that is off by themselves is an easy meal. Healthy deer will likely avoid predators, escape, and keep up with other healthy deer that are super alert and hanging out in winter groups. I'm not talking about deer that are totally healthy that carry CWD....I'm talking about predators killing truly sick and weak CWD deer.

Can you honestly say a sick CWD deer is going to be aware of what's going on around him and be able to detect a coyote and have the energy to escape? There is no doubt in my mind that a sick CWD deer is a dead deer in a matter of days. The number of truly sick CWD deer is soooo low % in the total deer population even in the hottest CWD areas that what better way is there for sick deer to get culled than predators killing off the sick ones? I really believe mass culling operations are totally senseless!

Tristate, how many sick CWD deer have you seen in the last 5 to 10 years and how many of these sick CWD are reported to the CPW to be shot and put out of their misery? ...my guess is close to 0 because they are killed so quickly by predators once they are weak and sick.

Makes a lot of sense to me! Coyotes may be opportunistic but they certainly can detect what's an easy sick meal in front of them!
 
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...my guess is close to 0 because they are killed so quickly by predators once they are weak and sick.
Makes a lot of sense to me! Coyotes may be opportunistic but they certainly can detect what's an easy sick meal in front of them!
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If that was true, why is there so many healthy looking deer killed by hunters that test positive for CWD. It seems the deer are passing on the CWD before they become too sick and weak to fall prey to your predators.
RELH
 
Jims,

you are having a hard time understanding the variables and dynamics of the disease. First of all the wildlife departments aren't increasing tags so that hunters can target infected deer. It has nothing to do with "selection". It has everything to do with density and juxtaposition.

You also don't understand that when a canid ingests cwd prions that suddenly the prion isn't gone. In fact the prion survives his digestive tract (I know its amazing) and then is distributed in his stool in multiple areas therefore ACTUALLY SPREADING THE DISEASE.

Let me give you a taste of reality.

A coyote runs into a cwd infected deer. He kills it. He eats a portion of the deer. He goes a 1/4 mile digs a hole a regurgitates the CWD meat into the hole. He travels back to the kill gorges with meat and trots off another 1/4 mile and barfs in a different hole he digs. On the way back he takes a crap. He repeats this. Then on his way back to gorge on more cwd meat he runs into a sheep. He goes ahead and kills that sheep too. Now we have a dozen new places that have CWD for years and an angry rancher. The next week the same coyote kills a perfectly healthy 4 year old muley buck. In between he ate 40 mice, a crow, and somebodies house cat. This is all perfectly normal behavior for a coyote. I haven't exaggerated a single thing AND THERE IS NO LESS CWD IN THE AREA BECAUSE OF HIM. This is reality.
 
Everyone that's spent many days in Colo knows for a fact that the population/density of deer across Colo is only a fraction of what it was 10 years ago. So why the heck would the CPW increase deer tags when deer densities are significantly lower than they've been for years?

The first cases of CWD in wild deer in Colo was documented in the early 1980's. It's been 15 to 20+ years since CWD was first recorded. Why would the CPW all of a sudden get totally bent out of shape and want to increase tags with later rifle season dates in 2021 when the population of deer in 2021 is a chunk less than what it was throughout Colo around 2010? The deer density deal Tristate mentioned makes absolutely no sense? CWD is only present in a small fraction of the deer population both in 2010 and 2021.

I don't think a lot of guys realize that the % of CWD positive deer that hunters harvest out of the total population of deer in the hottest CWD areas in the country is only a small fraction. Of that small fraction of deer that test positive for CWD only a tiny fraction of that fraction of deer are sick and die in any given year. The number of truly sick CWD deer that coyotes and other predators kill and consume is tiny....nothing to get very excited. The exciting thing is that predators kill the truly sick deer and the sick deer is no longer spreading prions from deer to deer.

So a coyote poops after he ingests the meat of a deer....who cares. The meat doesn't have prions or humans would likely be in trouble? The only prions are in the head and possibly the neck.

If what you are saying is true wouldn't a live deer be spreading a gob of prions by pooping and being in contact with deer every day he's alive? Once dead the deer isn't in contact with other deer and spreading prions while it's feeding and drinking from its saliva, nose to nose contact with other deer, etc. Thank goodness the predator killed the sick deer that has a lot more chance for exchanging prions from deer to deer!

With that said, I'm almost positive that a sick deer has the opportunity to spread CWD a lot more than a frickin coyote!

So lets look at it from a different perspective. Th sick deer is still alive. The sick deer interacts with other deer for a month or 2, pooping every day, browsing on forbs and shrubs, drinking water, interacting with other deer every day...my guess is that every day that sick deer is alive he's spreading a heck of a lot of prions compared to a coyote!

Now lets take a more realistic look at the coyote that killed the deer. There is only a small chunk of the entire deer that likely has prions. You mention all the meat on the deer the coyote is regurgitating has prions. I call bull=honky on that! From what I understand the only prions are in the head region of the deer...not the meat? I really think you are exaggerating where all the prions you mentioned are being spread. I could really care less if a coyote spreads few to 0 prions. The big story is the sick deer is dead and there is one less sick deer spreading CWD prions among other deer.

As I've been saying all along, the number of truly sick CWD deer in the population is so small that predators are a great way to dispose of them. Is it really worth culling large chunks of the population of deer in a herd that has only a few truly sick deer in any given year? I say heck no! The CPW has totally blown this out of proportion.
 
Here you go! Read the first sentance of this article!


Mountain lions prey selectively on prion-infected mule deer

Mountain lions have been shown to preferentially select CWD-infected prey and are also apparently resistant to infection. In this study, two captive mountain lions were fed ground mule deer muscle tissue spiked with brain-derived CWD prions, and lion feces were collected for 1 week afterward. The input brain and resulting fecal materials were analyzed using the highly sensitive real-time quaking-induced conversion (RT-QuIC) assay to quantify prion seeding activity. We recovered only 2.8 to 3.9% of input CWD prions after passage through the mountain lions' gastrointestinal tracts. Interestingly, CWD prions were shed only in the first defecation following consumption. Our data support the possibility that mountain lions feeding upon infected carcasses could excrete CWD prions in their feces over a short period of time but also suggest that most of the ingested prions are eliminated or sequestered by this large predator. IMPORTANCE CWD prions appear to spread naturally among susceptible cervid species in captivity and in the wild. A better understanding of all the ways these prions move, persist, and subsequently infect target species through the environment is critical to developing comprehensive disease control strategies. In our study, we show limited, transient pass-through of CWD prions in an apex predator, the mountain lion, using the highly sensitive RT-QuIC assay on feces collected after lions were fed prion-spiked muscle tissue. Prions were detected in feces only in the first defecation after exposure. Moreover, the amount of CWD prions recovered in feces was reduced by >96% after passing through the lion digestive system. This indicates that mountain lions may have some potential to distribute CWD prions within their home ranges but that they also effectively eliminate most of the CWD prions they consume.

Here's another article about mtn lions selectivity for CWD infected deer:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Mountain lions prey selectively on prion-infected mule deer

The possibility that predators choose prey selectively based on age or condition has been suggested but rarely tested. We examined whether mountain lions (Puma concolor) selectively prey upon mule deer (Odocoileus hemionus) infected with chronic wasting ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
 
Here you go Tristate:

Representative Gunderson from Libby, Montana, asked, “Do predators spread CWD?”

Dr. Michael Miller, a senior wildlife veterinarian for Colorado Parks and Wildlife, answered, “We certainly haven’t seen any evidence of that.”

But Dr. Miller went on to tell the EQC more about the prions that coyotes pass, “But a lot of that infectivity [the ability of the prions to infect other animals] is actually degraded as it passes through their digestive tract. That part of the story doesn’t always seem to get reported.” (That part was not reported on the reintroduction opponents’ website.)

He then added that there’s a fair chance predators are “actually helping to reduce infection in environmental contamination by consuming carcasses and digesting at least a lot of the prion’s infectivity that’s in them.”

Dr. Miller concluded by stating there is “…no indication in Colorado that movements of predators have contributed to the spread of the disease…”

ricklamplugh.blogspot.com

Fact Check: Do Wolves Help Spread CWD?

a blog about protecting wildlife and preserving wildlands
ricklamplugh.blogspot.com ricklamplugh.blogspot.com
 
Jims,

you are all over the place with your posts. you think the prions are in spinal and brain tissues. In reality they are located practically nose to tail on a deer and he is spreading them throughout the infection. Maybe the spine and brain hold the highest concentrations of the prion but that isn't what is leaking prion into the environment.

Why are you posting up this garbage science of feeding Mountain lions meat?????? Mountain lions don't select animals with CWD. BY THE TIME A DEER SHOWS VISUAL SYMPTOMS OF CWD HE HAS PROBABLY HAD THE DISEASE FOR SEVERAL YEARS! No mountain lion knows what CWD is. No mountain lion wakes up in the morning saying, "lets go hunt for sick deer". He see's vulnerable and attacks. That can be from a disease or just a bad decision on the part of the prey.

Did you even read that mountain lion study? ITS GLARINGLY BAD SCIENCE. a century ago doctors were telling mothers the best thing they could do was smoke Marlboros when they were pregnant. That's better science than the literal crap you just posted.

It would be like me saying that you state the mule deer herds are falling but s are the infection rates of cwd so if we want less CWD we just need to keep mismanaging the deer herds.:unsure::ROFLMAO: THAT'S NOT SCIENCE.

By the way do you know that they now know CWD can make a familial jump from cervids to felids???? That's right. So by a mountain lion eating cwd prions he can now become a super spreader.


Look all BS aside go talk to a trapper or someone that has hunted lions for a few decades. Ask him what a mountain lion's thought process is. He will tell you the extent of a lion's selective ability is first can I have sex with that, and second can I kill that. THAT"S ALL.
 
Tristate,
It's obvious you disagree with good science and know more about CWD than even the multiple scientists that generate this factual data!

I'll stick with what I've been saying all along. Predators are our friend for culling out the sick and weak CWD deer. Predators also aren't spreading CWD across the country. I'm pretty much done with this conversation because it's obvious you know more than multiple PHD scientists!
 
This is what I mean you actually don't read the garbage you post. The "science" you posted doesn't actually show it was done by PHDs. The one PHD you did post came back and said,

"theoretically if the coyotes moved some distance away after eating from a CWD-infected carcass, they could spread the prions."


You are done with this conversation because it is making you look silly.
 
RELH said:
...my guess is close to 0 because they are killed so quickly by predators once they are weak and sick.
Makes a lot of sense to me! Coyotes may be opportunistic but they certainly can detect what's an easy sick meal in front of them!
_____________________________________________________________________
If that was true, why is there so many healthy looking deer killed by hunters that test positive for CWD. It seems the deer are passing on the CWD before they become too sick and weak to fall prey to your predators.
RELH
Click to expand...
According to Jims, you need to know the difference between a healthy looking deer with CWD & a "truly sick deer" with CWD. ;)
 
jims said:
Here you go! Read the first sentance of this article!


Mountain lions prey selectively on prion-infected mule deer

Mountain lions have been shown to preferentially select CWD-infected prey and are also apparently resistant to infection. In this study, two captive mountain lions were fed ground mule deer muscle tissue spiked with brain-derived CWD prions, and lion feces were collected for 1 week afterward. The input brain and resulting fecal materials were analyzed using the highly sensitive real-time quaking-induced conversion (RT-QuIC) assay to quantify prion seeding activity. We recovered only 2.8 to 3.9% of input CWD prions after passage through the mountain lions' gastrointestinal tracts. Interestingly, CWD prions were shed only in the first defecation following consumption. Our data support the possibility that mountain lions feeding upon infected carcasses could excrete CWD prions in their feces over a short period of time but also suggest that most of the ingested prions are eliminated or sequestered by this large predator. IMPORTANCE CWD prions appear to spread naturally among susceptible cervid species in captivity and in the wild. A better understanding of all the ways these prions move, persist, and subsequently infect target species through the environment is critical to developing comprehensive disease control strategies. In our study, we show limited, transient pass-through of CWD prions in an apex predator, the mountain lion, using the highly sensitive RT-QuIC assay on feces collected after lions were fed prion-spiked muscle tissue. Prions were detected in feces only in the first defecation after exposure. Moreover, the amount of CWD prions recovered in feces was reduced by >96% after passing through the lion digestive system. This indicates that mountain lions may have some potential to distribute CWD prions within their home ranges but that they also effectively eliminate most of the CWD prions they consume.

Here's another article about mtn lions selectivity for CWD infected deer:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Mountain lions prey selectively on prion-infected mule deer

The possibility that predators choose prey selectively based on age or condition has been suggested but rarely tested. We examined whether mountain lions (Puma concolor) selectively prey upon mule deer (Odocoileus hemionus) infected with chronic wasting ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Click to expand...
The article also contains this sentence, which explains when a deer goes from a "healthy deer with CWD" to a "truly sick deer."

"Near the end stages of disease, infected cervids lose considerable amounts of weight and become neurologically compromised (1). Clinical disease can kill infected individuals outright, but in the wild, it also increases their vulnerability to other hazards, including hunting and predation."
 

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