CWMU permits 2011

[Blanding_Boy]

I thought some of you might be intersted in this, while some really don't care and want to get rid of the program all together but just an FYI

Here are the number of permits of bucks and bulls given to the public (well they still have to pay for the permit but don't have to pay for access) available to the public through the draw process for 2011.

Here's what guys want to give up and do away with.

Data for 2011 (bucks bulls) available to the public through the draw.

Total buck deer tags >>> 260
Total bull elk tags >>> 128
Total bull moose tags >>> 40
Total buck pronghorn tags >>> 42

Total antlerless permits 2010 data
Antlerless Deer >>> 47
Antlerless Elk >>> 1041
Antlerless Moose >>> 7
Antlerless Pronghorn >>> 93


Todd Black
BTO

 

[pookiebar]

Todd

Thanks for the data

My main problem with the way CWMU is currently set up is the following:

1)
260 public buck deer tags means that the land owners can harvest 2,000 + animals beyond that.

128 public bull elk tags = 1,200 + harvested bull elk

Not sure the trade on Moose.

42 public buck pronghorn = 200+ harvested buck pronghorn.

2)
The landowners can line up hunts for these species for 2-3 months, which is far too long, and assures that these animals are indeed harvested.

3)
The surrounding public access areas suffer depleted population from this over harvest.

 

[3point]

Todd, Will the CWMU info be updated before the application period? I think some of the boundaries are changing, correct?

 

[FATDOWG]

I may be dumb but if you add up the time that you can hunt on private property on a general season that is not in a CWMU for deer and elk how much time is that? Is there much difference between that and the amount of time that a CWMU is open to hunt because not all of them have the November extension. Just a thought I may be up in the night just a thought.

 

[Blanding_Boy]

Pookie?

First I didn't put that info on there for you to express more of your problems, but since you brought them up....

Your problems you have with the CWMU program are based on what? Where did you get your knowledge and your problems from? Have you actually taken the time to find out if what you believe is actually true? Before you have problems with something, someone, or some program, you ought to at least take the time to find out if your problems are in fact facts or not, don't you think? In your case of the 3 problems that you listed, only 1 is even close to being a fact and it's a ways from it and the others are far from being truthful let alone facts.

3pt--I don't know if the UDWR is planning on updating the maps or not, I have not asked Boyd but it would be nice as there are several new ones and many boundary changes.

Dowg--I don't follow your post, not sure what you are asking.


Todd Black
BTO

 

[FATDOWG]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-21-11 AT 08:34AM (MST)[p]I was just saying the public has just as much time to hunt on the genral seasons as the CWMU get to hunt there season. So why should the CWMU get there season dates cut?

 

[Blanding_Boy]

Dowg--I don't disagree at all. One could certainly make the argument that from mid august to end of January there is someone hunting big game somewhere and in most places in the state.

Todd Black
BTO

 

[eyecrazy]

so if you put in and draw then you get 5 days to hunt on ground that you have never been on with no scouting no guide and a boundry map.
So that means I would have 5 days to learn the country ok you can do that all day long. know you have 4 to 6 hours a day when that animals are active so you have 2 or 3 hours in the morning and at night to locate game and a quality animal. so then you have about 20 hours to find and kill a quality animal without any scouting.
cwmu's are a joke. all it is doing is makeing the whole state high dollar hunting. it took away ground that alot of us used to hunt and made it so we all hunt the same public ground.

 

[Scoutsdad]

Could someone describe how the CWMU hunting works? I am not familiar with this program.

Thanks

 

[hossblur]

Todd,

Again, no one is saying they don't put out tags(vouchers)

The problem is what they get to do so. That one elk tag pays the state $280, which then is turned into a $5000 hunt. For that the state manages the program, advertises(proclamtions, and they don't for pheasant farms and duck clubs), patrols the boundaries, waives waiting periods, waives the draw, waives hunting seasons.

I drew a Manti LE tag 3 years ago. I paid $280 for it, I got basically a week, in November. I now am waiting another 2 years before I can apply, then probably 13 or more before I would draw. Why shouldn't I just get the option of doing what your clients do and buy another tag this year? Why do we have a system the GOVERNMENT set up that doesn't create a level playing field. The land owner can do what he wants he owns the land, the problem is the GOVERNMENT has a system in which based on income you can have seperate rules and regs. THAT IS THE PROBLEM, not the land owner.

Let the land owner sell tresspass, guides, lodging. He can do so now, but they want the bypass of the draw and waiting periods as well as the extended seasons. That is the ONLY reason there is a CWMU program. Really, the land owner could give away access without the CWMU as well. They aren't putting out public tags out of the goodness of there hearts, there is a profit motive and we all know it, YOU JUST DON'T WANT TO ADMIT IT!

 

[Blanding_Boy]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-11 AT 09:27AM (MST)[p]Hoss--

I'm done with the discussion, I've said it before, even told you what to do. I'm sorry you still have a problem (some might call it a good point, I won't).

For the life of me I can't figure out why you are wasting your time talking to me about it. Get it changed man! There is a process, if others agree that your problem is a good point, you might have a chance. Your like a broken record that just goes on and on and on. Do something about your problem please.

Todd Black
BTO

 

[treedagain]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-11 AT 10:50AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-11 AT 10:45?AM (MST)

Todd, here is something for you to think about....we as the lowly public have had a cap put on our deer tags....but when a new CWMU pops up they are alloted tags to hunt for a 2 month season, these tags are over and above the cap, as you have pointed out they are killing on a average 3+ yr old deer.
here is one of your many memorable quotes:

"if on average the CWMU is harvesting 3+ year or older deer (on average)"

so a CWMU pops up and is killing on a average a bigger deer overnite because of the season structure, not because of there location. how is this good for the herd? or for the general public? this is lost opprotunity.

I know it may cause a little heartburn but when we were put on a cap most of these CWMUs were not around so in fact the state is issueing over 100,000 buck deer tags. with the 2,600 CWMU tags in a premium setting, 2 month long season.

Here is a question for you to answer, of the 2600+ buck tags,1280 bull elk, 40 bull moose and 80 goat tags issued to the CWMU's how many went to non residents????. so if a majority of the tags go to non residents then they should come out of there pool in the general hunts and a portion of the LE hunts for the same region. so if you think about it they are getting ALLOT more than the 10% the state allows, these ARE premium tags just like the LE hunts.

so the logical solution would be to cut the NON-RESIDENT allocation in both the general and LE hunts...does that seem fair to you?? no, that is because the LE hunts also put money in your pocket...money talks...right....for all you non-residents ready to lynch me, we all know the state of Utah won't cut your tags, its all bout the money.....the money they are pouring into the pockets of the CWMU operators.....

Todd looking at your #s below the only real benifit to the public is the cow elk tags....the rest is not worth the damage it is doing to our deer and elk herds, with the exception of a few CWMU's that have provided access that was not available in the past, the rest have caused more harm than good, closing ground that was open in the past.


Data for 2011 (bucks bulls) available to the public through the draw.

Total buck deer tags >>> 260
Total bull elk tags >>> 128
Total bull moose tags >>> 40
Total buck pronghorn tags >>> 42

Total antlerless permits 2010 data
Antlerless Deer >>> 47
Antlerless Elk >>> 1041
Antlerless Moose >>> 7
Antlerless Pronghorn >>> 93

 

[Blanding_Boy]

Treed--

Sorry, I can't answer your question, your information is not correct.

"Here is a question for you to answer, of the 2600+ buck tags,1280 bull elk, 40 bull moose and 80 goat tags"

Sorry you don't see a benefit to the program, I will mark you down as one against it. See my post to Hoss--good luck.


Todd Black
BTO

 

[slcmuley]

Todd-
See my latest post on the other thread labeled CWMU.
what are your thoughts on this idea?
I agree the owner should recieve benifits for allowing their land to be used for public hunting. I feel that the benifits the landowners are currently getting far surpass the benifits of the public.
-SEASON LENGTHS
-TAG RATIO OVER PUBLIC TAGS
-THE OPPORTUNITY TO BRING PAYING HUNTERS IN BEFORE THE PUBLIC HAS A CHANCE
-KEEPING PUBLIC HUNTERS OUT OF THE BETTER AREAS

Now having said all this I am still for the program if more tags are given to the public. I feel this can be a huge tool to help with the current point creep situation.

Thanx for your time on this matter.

BTW- are you still on the CWMU board?

 

[cantkillathing]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-11 AT 05:46PM (MST)[p]CWMUs are a good tool to help raise better animals. And a chance for some public hunters to draw good tags. But I think maybe some slighter increase to the public would be better, but that is because I am poor and will never afford a tag, but if I were rich then I would sing a different song. Hunting is a touchy subject for everyone and everyone wants more and I don't know what the answer is other than we need better public land hunting.

 

[SWAGshootn]

Blanding Boy

I am glad you have posted the numbers. I am in favor of the program but not under the current rules and regs.

1st - I have personally been impacted by guys gathering up land to enter into a CWMU. Before the program my family and I would get on the land for a grand a piece to hunt both elk and deer in the northern region. You would always get a chance at a bull but nothing of real size. Deer was another story. Every year someone would kill a 30"+ buck and others would be seen.

Now the property is under a CWMU and they are charging $3000 for deer and $3500 for elk. They market to guys from the eastcoast who dont know any better. There were atleast 20 of us taking advantage of the previous price but now no one.

So how did this benefit us? Sure you can argue there are still permits available in the general draw but the chance of drawing is maybe 1 every 4 years. Or you could pay a whole ton of money?

As with the numbers..... I think we need to adjust them. The only real advantage is the antlerless tags. And that is because of the % the landowners choose to take. We should limit this to a 70/30 split. If the landowners don't like it then let them leave the CWMU association. Lets see Deseret charge $15000 for an elk and have to get all their hunters in during a 10 day elk hunt.

As for the age of the animals, I agree with you. Their should be older deer helping the land next to it. But I did spend some time up by Monte Cristo and watched a few cowboys drive a canyon a few days before the hunt. Not that this happens everywhere but it does happen.

 

[treedagain]

Todd how is my info not correct? deer and elk are a 10 to 1 ratio....goats are 60-40 split and moose is 50-50....do the math...

answer this question you dodged ....

"Here is a question for you to answer, of the 2600+ buck tags,1280 bull elk, 40 bull moose and 80 goat tags issued to the CWMU's how many went to non residents????. so if a majority of the tags go to non residents then they should come out of there pool in the general hunts and a portion of the LE hunts for the same region. so if you think about it they are getting ALLOT more than the 10% the state allows, these ARE premium tags just like the LE hunts."

also, in limited circumstances the CWMU program does provide access that would not be available, but mostly it has taken away far opprotunity than it has created.

 

[Blanding_Boy]

SWAG--

Here are my thoughts....

1--Those guys from back east must be stupid, paying 3500 for a chance to kill a 30" buck. I paid the same dang thing this year for a white-tail hunt for a chance at a 150" buck with my bow--boy was I stupid.

2--I can see how it did impact you directly. Sounds like a good area. I believe you were getting a good deal for 1k if you had a good chance at harvesting a 30+" buck. If you compare that with CO, NV, NM and Auction tags 1k is or was certainly a bargain. BTW, I get a landowner tag in CO every year for 1k where I have the same chance and its hunting that first week of Nov. man I love it.

3--if it takes you 4 years to draw, put in every year. Save your 1k you were spending and buy a tag every 3 years then draw the 4th. With the waiting periods you still should be able to hunt 3 out of 10 years. I would consider myself extremely lucky to have a opportunity like that.

4--As I pointed out to others, you are free to make the changes YOU think should be implemented. There is a process to accomplish that. Get your info together, make a good strong argument and let the RAC and WB determine if its fair or a good idea.

Hope this helps.

Todd Black
BTO

 

[Blanding_Boy]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-11 AT 09:20PM (MST)[p]Treed--

Remember those numbers are based on 100% private, having more than or at least 9 private permits and 10 public. If 50% of the unit is public what is the split? If you only have 5 elk tags on a CWMU how many to the public get? Sorry man your info is correct but your data is WRONG. I didn't dodge a question you just presented me with WRONG data. Don't assume, take the time to look through the data, heck even talk to the UDWR get the right numbers get back with me then we can talk.

If you can't bother to do that, its not worth my time to answer questions or have a debate. IMO

Todd Black
BTO

 

[Smokepole]

To those who are against the CWMU program. Some of your quoted facts are not correct. There are some CWMU's that do allow pre-scouting. Some provide guides free of charge and they will guide you to some very good animals (comparable to the paying clients). The older age class animals on some of these ranches are more the norm than the exception and they do move between private and public or other neighboring private properties, thus improving surrounding lands.

So, what if they have a longer window to hunt. Reduced pressure and more animals provides for a more quality hunt for both the public hunter and the paying client. Overall, most of these CWUM's take fewer animals for the size of the property compared to public lands, so, they already have reduced tag numbers compared to our general hunts. However, I do agree that there are a few CWMU's that do way over hunt their properties but, if you look at the satisfaction rating for the public and private hunters it is generally much lower than most the other CWMU's.

CWMU's are private property. The owners must make money on their property or they won't be able to keep it. Their land is a business and if you owned a business wouldn't you want to make money? I'm sure you would too! Many property owners have (in the past) sold their property to developers and now they are split up into 20 acre ranchets and no hunting is allowed. This is a very real concern I have if the CWMU program were to be done away with. Is this what you want? Potentially, no more hunting at all on some of these properties, we would all loose if this is the case.

Overall, we are talking about less than 3% of buck tags and less than 5% bull tags go to the CWMU's (I'm not including all the LE permits out there). I don't see that this is too many or taking away from the public hunter. Primarilly, since these private lands generally only let family or friends hunt their lands before the shortly before CWMU program started. Also, before the CWMU program started many of these properties started leasing their lands to Outfitters who were already selling permits to Non-resident hunters or whomever would pay for access. Back in those days I belonged to United Sportsman and paid for access to a bunch of private properties that are now in or have been in the CWMU progam from the beginning. So, the public was already loosing access to private lands long before the CWMU progam was implimented.

Yes, I've hunted on and accompanied other hunters on some of the CWMU's as the public hunter. I can't afford the price to be a paying client now. I'm not associated with them in any other way. You may now take whatever shots at me that you want, I have thick skin.

Smokepole

 

[Packout]

To express frustration OR compliments for the CWMU program, people should contact the UDWR, show up at the public meetings dealing with CWMUs, or contact a Sportsman's Rep on the UDWR's CWMU Committee (me). Send me a PM.

I feel the CWMU program was made better over the last 3 years with the changes implemented to the program. Are there other things that could be tweaked? Sure. Ideas to better the program should always be expressed.

 

[Blanding_Boy]

Thanks Mike--it will be interesting to see if you get any. You are spot on, its not a perfect program but we are getting there, things can and should be looked at and considered from all interested parties.

Todd Black
BTO

 

[pookiebar]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-11 AT 10:01AM (MST)[p]Todd

I am not totally against CWMU's. I hunt one for cow elk every 2nd year, cause I can't eat it any faster then that.

I know for a fact that CWMU does not fill all of their private tags each year, and I suspect there are a number of others the same way.

But, I know other areas that do sell all their tags, and the surrounding areas have seen a negative impact on the herd.

You say my data is all wrong. Please educate me and tell me where the data is wrong.

On another seperate issue. As it is set up now you can buy a CWMU tag and put in for the LE season in Utah. I think if you buy a CWMU tag you should have the waiting period, just like a guy that drew the tag. You can keep your points, but for 5 years on elk you're on hold. Can't get more points, and can only hunt elk on the general season again.

When is the next meeting regarding CWMU? I will be happy to attend.
Thanks,

 

[Blanding_Boy]

Pookie--

Go through the web site add them (the total private tags) up--its not updated for 2011, you can get that info from Boyd just as I have. Many of the CWMUs have less than 10 tags, many give 80/20 splits 70-30 splits or even 60/40 splits for bucks and bulls. All I'm saying is its not a perfect 90/10 split or 60/40 split so you can't just assume that's the number of tags the CWMUs get.

Again, I would like to see your data that you "know the surrounding areas have seen a negative impact on the herd" From the CWMUs selling all their tags. I'm not saying it hasn't or isn't happening, I would just like to see the numbers that you are basing your knowledge upon.

You have another idea, draft a proposal, state your reasons and justifications, share it with the RAC and WB. Who knows.... YOu may change the program. Not saying its a good idea or bad idea just pointing out again that there is a process for these kind of things.

Rest assured, CWMUs will cut their deer permits, some already have the only reason some keep them high is so the public hunter will get one or 2 a year for the course of the 3 year management plan. When we cut them, just remember the public will get cut too.

Todd Black
BTO

 

[regularjoe]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-11 AT 05:38PM (MST)[p]PM sent to Packout

 

[trapper]

I agree i think they have to cut back on some of the CWMU permits.

 

[trapper]

hossblur thats a great post i think you hit it on the head

 

[300WBYMULES]

Back in the year 2000, I had 5 Utah resident elk points, I didn't want to wait for years to draw a tag, so I started to do some research. I made some phone calls and contacted some of the different CWMU operators in areas that I felt might have some good bulls. I rolled the dice and selected one of them and drew the one permit available to the public. I had an outstanding experience on this property that I had never set foot on, the operator actually took me onto the place in early September before the paying clients showed up. I had a couple opportunities that weekend at a couple of 320" bulls and elected to pass them up. I was able to hunt the ranch off and on for 4 weekends, and on Friday October 6 2000, I had one of the funnest elk hunting days of my life. Spotted an awesome 6x7 bull, hunted him for a better part of the morning, then got on another nice herd bull with 6 raghorns around him. Called in each of the Satellite bulls and finally got the herd bulls cows to come right to my cow calls. He was right in tow and I slammed the bull at 25 yards with my trusty little .270.

I did not even know this operator prior to this hunt, and I have done a bunch of elk hunting since this one, and this hunt remains my favorite. My bull was the largest harvested on the ranch that year, he was a very heavy 6x6 bull that gross scored just shy of 350".

My point in posting this is, this program is under appreciated by Utah residents. That elk tag would have run me around $10,000. I paid $180 for it. Did I need to be patient, sure. Did I need to work and communicate with the operator, sure I did. Did it work out for me, it did. Could I have possibly not taken a bull, absolutely, but that is hunting. I took a risk and it paid off. Ive taken other risks with points in draw areas and have come up short of filling my tag more than once. But to me, the harvest is the icing on the cake, the hunting experience has always been the most important part of a hunt to me and these CWMU properties can be outstanding.

All you need to do is go deer hunt public general season lands in Utah. I am grateful that there are properties such as these that conserve deer and elk. These hunts are outstanding, and the public of Utah can draw them out and have very good hunts. I would dare say that if you did your research and chose a CWMU, with realistic expectations, your hunt would be outstanding, and a much better experience than the Utah general hunt. And, you just might pickup a few more tags during your lifetime, than say waiting for a Henry Mtn tag to come along.

Okay, I understand the longer season dates, what is worse, hunting a 20,000 acre ranch for two month time frame, harvesting 15 bucks and 8 bulls, or opening those gates up for 1 week, and lets put 15,000 hunters in there for a 9 day season. Sounds like a no brainer to me if we are trying to create quality hunts.

Conservation is what a CWMU is all about.

Todd, this program is great for wildlife, great for sportsman, and good for landowners and operators.