DEBATE - dkpeay vs. BigFin

1

1FastGambler

Active Member
Messages
982
Don, you offered to have a debate with Randy.

For the benefit of hunting and future conservation efforts this debate needs to happen.

Presidential debate type of format?

I'm picturing two podiums, two microphones, two passionate, outspoken individuals discussing topics critical to the future of hunting and conservation.

You both have enough pull to get this debate televised on the Sportsman?s Channel.

I want a ring side seat and I'm willing to pay big bucks for it, plus I'll record it on my DVR.

What say you?
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-12 AT 08:02PM (MST)[p] DON WILL BE OUT ON CUTS BY THE 2ND ROUND, RANDY KNOWS HIS BUSINESS/TRUTH.........PEAY WILL NEED A GOOD CUT MAN TO STOP THE BLEEDING.......... PS.....I THINK FERDIE PACHACO THE FIGHT DOCTOR PASSED....................YD.
 
Nothing to debate. We're right, he's wrong, that's the end of the story. It's like trying to argue the sun won't rise in the morning. Besides, Don wouldn't show up unless Randy paid him a little something. You know, an Alaska brown bear tag or an Arizona governor's elk tag. It's all in the name of conservation.
 
Seriously, I would watch and especially would like a follow-up point by point evaluation of the accuracy of all statements. Is one thing to say stuff but another to have to hang around for the fact check. Just saying one side tends to be vague and do drive-by statements then disappear.
 
Lol OMG you people are so dumb get a life quit bitching and put your words to the ground.
 
I think the debate will be very interesting.

There are some relevant issues that are not reduced to a simple yea or nea, in my opinion.

An issue that has lots of grey to me is should F&G manage for Quality of hunts or Quantity of opportunity to hunt?

What percent of tags should be allocated to NR?

Point system or not?

Landowner tags?

Depredation payments?

Habitat importance vs. predator control importance.

How best to counter well-funded opponents to hunting that use proposed bills or initiatives to restrict hunting? Where does the funding come from, does rank and file merely carry out directives or control policy, and how important is for a 3rd party to provide easy to evaluate financials?
 
YukonDall the only drink I drank is one of grace you should try it some time you people need a new hobby.
 
Deerlove lol your name says one thing and you do another you should try supporting wildlife not baggin on the people that do.
 
BC......NEXT TIME YOU TRY THAT DRINK OF GRACE, MIX IN A SPLASH OF TRUTH....... IT MIGHT SOBER YOU RIGHT UP. HOPE YOU DRAW........YD.
 
YukonDall maybe you should come to some of the meetings and find your truth yourself.
 
it would be great to see this happen although it probably never will.... I think old Don would get his own a$$ handed to him.

Thank you Randy for always sayin what Im thinkin!
 
When I created this post I tried hard to write it in a way that was neutral without showing favoritism.

If anyone wants to know where I stand, feel free to search past posts. Nothing SFW or any of the SFW supporters have presented has done anything but provide further proof that they cannot be trusted.

I have my own personal reasons why I refuse to support SFW of NM, even thou there are a select few within the ranks that are good, trustworthy people, I know that their intentions are just, but the company they keep is questionable at best.

I believe that every American has the right to their own opinion and the right to fight for what they believe in.

However... Anyone with even a smidgen of street smarts and the ability to research a few facts on their own should be able to see right thru the smoke and mirrors/dog & pony show that SFW is trying to sell.

From what I have seen, the ONLY time SFW has ever done anything good is when they are in checkmate and have no other choice but to do the right thing. It also appears to me that every time they do have a choice, they make the wrong choice.
I don't consider myself to be a ?hater? of SFW, Don Peay, Robert Espinoza, or any other SFW member. I do however have the right to my opinion and the right to share my opinion, same as everyone else.
If this debate were to really take place and Don could prove that the things he and his minions claim are true and that the financial accountability questions surrounding the SFW are justified I will be the first to wipe away the line in the sand and become an outspoken supporter.

Until then my view of the SFW will remain unchanged. Zero faith in their accountability and trustworthiness.

One more thing? On the NM SFW website in the ?about? section, it states; ?Responsible Predator Control and Reasonable Management of Hunters.? What does that mean?
I don't think they are qualified to manage hunters, much less have the right to do so!

Cheers
 
"- Like how a group is funded by hundreds of Utah hunting tags, the majority of which require little, or no, revenue back to the state, yet claims they are doing so much work with their own efforts?

- Like how one group is lead by a guy who loves to use the term socialism when talking about the laws for western wildlife allocation, yet that group depends on a huge government handout of public tags to keep the doors open. I think the term wildlife welfare should be part of that debate question?

- Like how the handout money is used as seed cash for chapters in other states where plans are implemented to try steal even more raffle tags in a neighboring state, building a bigger cash flow jackpot?

- Like how little money some groups put back in the ground, even though they receive millions in funds from raffle tags, and some from auction tags?

- Like how auction tag money required to go back to the state is not money the organization put in the ground, given it is really the state who put the money in the ground?

- Like the topic of the Public Trust Doctrine and how wildlife is held in trust for all citizens, and not to be allocated for the exclusive use of any group?

- Like a debate about the workings and tenants of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation, not to be confused with the Communist Manifesto or Marxist Theory?

- Like Martin v. Waddell and how the 10th Amendment provides the public ownership in wildlife?

- Like the Federalist Papers and how upon declaring independence the Colonists retained ownership of all items not specifically granted to the Republic, with wildlife being an item retained by the states and not granted to the Feds or the private landowners?

- Like how the Simpson-Tester wolf deal really came down and what groups were the Donny Come Lately to the game, then when they got handed their teeth those late comers asked if they could go join the victory celebration by petitioning to be involved in the final legal steam rolling of the wolf wingnuts, even though the group tried to kill the game plan that provided real victory?

- Like how one group claimed Simpson-Tester would ruin delisting in Wyoming and the Great Lakes states, then when the Great Lakes states got their delisting, that group tried to take credit for it the success?

- Like how one group said the Simpson-Tester language of "without judicial" review would never hold up in court, yet cried when Wyoming did not get that supposed terrible language?

- Like how one group who said the "without judicial review" language of Simpson-Tester would never hold up in court, but claimed credit when the real players went to the 9th Circuit and swept the last remnants of the wolf wingnuts off the field?

- Like how one supposed hunting group tried to get outfitters allocated their own pool of tags in Wyoming?

- Like how a Utah group bragged of getting one of their friends appointed the Director of AK Fish and Game, even bragging about their success, then crawling in a hole when that individual resigned in the face of a dozen illegal outfitting and hunting charges?

- Like how one group sponsored and supported legislation, HB 141 in Utah, to overturn the case of Conaster v. Johnson, screwing anglers from reasonable stream access, then saying they were are supporting the average guy?

- Like ........ ?"

Down, and out!

Lv2hnt

"Every man dies --- not every man really lives."
 
The sportsmans channel would be great, but that wouldn't air until next year. Last I checked KSL OUTDOORS has a presence in here, how about it on Adams show? Or how about Steve Browns radio show? Both of those, especially Steves, have a very fast turn around. I think it would be great, no prepared PR sheet for THE DON, no THE DON talking points, 1 hour, both Fin and THE DON, radio call in listeners asking the questions, 3 min. responses. Seems do-able to me. Great chance for SFW to clear up recent misconceptions(seems like there is always a recent misconception for them). COME ON THE DON, your the great wildlife warrior, and Fin is misinformed all the time, should be an easy hour of you beating him down!!


When they came for the road hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the oppurtunists I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the public land hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for me there was no one left to say anything!
 
Hmmm. Just noticed this thread while drinking my morning coffee. dkpeay put it out that he would debate ANYONE over on the "Stab TR in the back" thread, didn't he.

As Doc Holiday woud say .......


"I'm your huckleberry."


"Say when Johnny!"


Hope you weren't "Just foolin' about."


Because "I wasn't."


Those who watched the movie Tombstone get the humor in those lines.

It would be a debate, not a storytelling contest. Moderated with topics agreed upon by dkpeay and me. Facts and support for all claims. We will sort the buckwheat from the BS.

If dkpeay says when and where, we will get working on format and topcis, and count me in. In fact, I will pay his expenses to be there, if he incurs any.

To keep it simple, but in depth, I say we stick to two topcis relevant to all western states; topics often at the very source of the threads on this and other websites..

1. Wolf reintroduction, including the history of how we got here and how we go forward.

2. The North American Model of wildlife conservation, including its supporting tenant, the Public Trust Doctrine.

More than glad to add any topics he wants.

Get KSL, XYZ, or whoever. I am happy to come and do it in UT, MT, BFE, or anywhere, anytime I am not out filming.

I think this would be fun and be to the benefit of all, especially those trying to sort out what is fact and what is fiction.

I'm in. Say when.


"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
I say put it on pay for view with the proceeds going to some of the western states game and fish agency's to use for habitat aquisition and improvement. Ya baby...
 
Don we all know your reading so how about it? after all your the one that mentioned it. Randy is more than willing as he has stated .it would give you a great opportunity to set all of us straight who seem to always not have all the facts straight or we" just don't get it" think about it if you could win over all of us who feel you have stuck it to us without the lube .this would be a great start in reuniting the sportsman throughout the west. You wouldn't even have to worry about loosing your flock because if you haven't lost them yet you probably won't .it's a win win for you.I think a ton of sportsmen are very concerned about this issue and I think the ratings would be off the charts

I can only think of one reason why you would back down from this debate with Randy .
 
>I say put it on pay
>for view with the proceeds
>going to some of the
>western states game and fish
>agency's to use for habitat
>aquisition and improvement. Ya
>baby...

GOOD GAWD!

Leave the money out of things just once!

If there was Money Involved I can hear it already,SFW took some/part/all of it & didn't give a 190% back!

This SSHHITT is gettin old!






[font color=red size=redsize=18"face"]SHOW THEM TO ME![/font]
If You Love Your Country,SHOW THEM TO ME!




Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
I propose we made a DKP/SFW forum since it is such a riveting subject.
4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
Let me Re-Phrase!




[font color=red size=redsize=24"face"]THIS SSHHITT IS GETTIN OLD![/font]
If You Love Your Country,SHOW THEM TO ME!




Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
You usually have to win a few big fights before you get a shot at the champ???

And Tony by all means explain why you would need to be in attendence? Other than looking to jump on board........Again!
 
yeah it would be hard for fin to compete with the champ of spin


When they came for the road hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the oppurtunists I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the public land hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for me there was no one left to say anything!
 
Whats with this "beating a dead horse" BS? Sounds like Don Peay has a bully gang and when he finally gets called to the carpet they have a bunch of childish things to say.
 
Mr. Peay has already made his one and only post on MM.com so he simply cannot accept Randy's offer due to not being able to post. Maybe he can just PM Randy? Wait that would require him to be a man of his word, already played that card away in the wolf debate.

highly doubt Mr. Peay wants anyone understanding that his sole goal is to privatize wildlife for him and his wealthy buddies to skim more welfare from the states he has targeted. I just wish he would leave Montana alone and get out of the socialism of using free government issued tags to profit from. He said it himself socialism is ruining the country unless it is socialism for him.

I'll bet anyone $100 bucks that Mr. Peay will not accept this offer.

Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-31-12 AT 10:02PM (MST)[p]Ha!

Righto...DP ain't gonna show. There will be no forfeit fee, nor any other satisfaction.

Ol Don is a scaley feller...he'll scuttle off and disappear as soon as his empty bluff is called, like he weasels his sleazy way outta ANY dealings with the real world, as is his wont.

I wouldn't much mind seeing him slither off into oblivion for good, but I'm sure we'll behold his conniving beady eyes and hear the rasp of his forked tongue somewhere again soon enough.

**edit--Hey, looks like the Dook Peay came on here lately after all eh? Challenged for a 'debate', then conveniently slithered off to ply his snake oil to the next ignorant and gullible State Gov't
 
I am just wondering two things. The tags you guys all talk about, are these the tags that the SFW got started for Utah in the first place? I think so, and second just wondering if cache has done anything for wildlife yet besides just hunt and kill it? He likes to think he has the right to hunt every year even if the deer herd is struggling.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-31-12 AT 11:11PM (MST)[p]I would love to see Don and Randy debate. These two individuals clearly represent two very different schools of thought. Don represents the wealthy, guided hunter who has the ability to purchase premium tags every year in the name of "conservation" (i.e. the Denny Austeds of the world). In stark contrast, Randy represents the average Joe, DIY hunter who hopes to hunt a couple of general season tags on pulic land each year. A debate would be both interesting and educational.

I hope that Don accepts Randy's offer as Don previously offered to participate in such a debate in the "SFW stabs Teddy Roosevelt in the back" thread. Plus, Don has previously offered to debate others. When we were sparring over these issues a couple of years ago Don challenged some of us to a public debate. Don's challenge eventually morphed into the SFW "dog and pony show" at the U of U.

If there is a debate, Don and Randy would need to agree to some basic ground rules and a moderator. Don has a tendency to ignore questions and give "nonresponsive" answers. I also think that the debate should be recorded so that sportsmen across the west could see it.

I'd love to see this happen. Don and Randy are both smart, passionate and articulate. It would be a very interesting clash of ideas, positions and agendas. Although my personal views tend to track with Randy, I would be interested to hear Don's positions on key issues. So what do you say Don? Can you make some time in your busy schedule to follow through on your previous invitation?

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Cody

Jump on board again.... Not sure what you mean.

And of course you would not want me there because all of the lies and half truths that would be told I could/would correct.

I would not allow the kool aide to be passed around. Remember I have actually knowledge from being involved, you Cody have 2nd, 3rd and 4th hand stories from the kool aid drinkers.....

Enjoy you drink

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
Hey Steve funny you opt to call me out I thought we were cool. I guess i thought wrong.I think we are both very passionate about the one thing we both love most, hunting i want more deer just as much as anyone else including you ,what we dissagree on is how we should go about getting there. Of anyone in our area I would think you of anyone would understand what I'm talking about when I talk about working hard, putting in lots of time and finding and killing a good buck quite regularly on our general unit . I know you do it. Don't tell me you would be first inline to sit out this year cause I don't believe it.

I find it quite interesting that last year at the RAC meeting in brigham you stood up to the mic and ripped Anise a new one about our 3 day hunt in 2010.If you were so concerned about our herd numbers And willing to take one for the team by not hunting( because in your eyes this will help us grow deer)then why such the temper tamptrum about the short hunt we had in 2010? Hopefully this won't effect your attempt at getting on the pay role with your new buddies.

Thanks again for calling me out! Before today i would've had resect enough for you to not do the same to you even if I didn't see something your way.Anyhow again I thought we were on a different level but that goes to show you how much i knew.If you have any more questions for me next time give me a call I know you have my number.
 
Tony,
If you had anything that could bring down SFW or hurt Don we have already heard it 100 times. The truth is there is really not much to bring up. Personal relationships gone wrong really don't have a place in this argument.
 
Hey cache I guess its my friends telling me that I told you they stole your targets. I to thought we were cool. I have said it and will say it again. I will sit out a hunting season or two or even three if it means our daughters get to hunt instead of just look at the remaining deer. I am not going to sit and argue on here so give me a call if you want to talk or say anything else. Oh ya you didn't answer my question, the same question you were asked about a year ago on here. What have you done to help out the herds you hunt so hard each year? Steve Sorensen 435-245-3497
 
So Naive you are. I already have cost them millions and made them come clean on Several issues and tighten up their books. And I never wanted to bring them down, I simply wanted them to come correct, upfront, honest and accountable.

They have definitely made some of those changes because of things that were brought to the attention of those that can slap them around.

You really have idea of the things that went on and how they have changed. I do. And when your fierce leader STILL talks bad about me as recently as the SCI show in Vegas and complains about what I have done to his plans it shows I am a bit more relevant then you want to admit.

Enjoy you koolaid Cody, just try to stop being so naive.....


Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
Let's stay focused on the real issue--when can we schedule the debate between Randy and Don.

Don, what say you?

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Trevor

WHat threat did I say? You are an immature infant that needs to think before he yaps his mouth.

All I said is I did things to tighten up the ship and cost them millions. Both of those are true statements.

Silver Bullet? Very nice comment, if you ever had one you would realize how rare they are.

And if you think I should Shut my effing mouth I will be glad to meet you anywhere and let you try to do the honors :)

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
Keep dreaming about a debate. That will not happen unless you offer one of the party's $100,000 and then he probably would require it upfront and then not show.

YOu guys need to do something about it if you dont like it like I did. I revived the MDF to make another group that could compete and keep people in checks and balances.

Too bad they have turned as worthless as the other group in my opinion.

UWC is what you ALL should be putting your time, efforts and money into if you EVER want the whoring of Utah's wildlife to stop.



Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
If ya got it fire it Tony, or are you still meeting with attorneys. I would love to see you stop this SFW train you helped create. lol
 
Hey Steve obviously you want to keep this going.thats funny you left me your number on your last post.I recall personaly calling you a couple of weeks ago to ask you man to man if you took my targets.You told me no but your friend had been shooting them.Then I asked your friend if he had taken my targets man to man and told him that you had told me he was shooting them thats it period.Thanks for leaving me your number but I didn't need it because I still had it from when we spoke about the targets.

If limiting buck harvest is the answer to helping grow our deer herd why did we have a record all time low number of deer killed during our 2011 deer season on the Cache unit.Exactly one year after we had a 3 day hunt!In reality it was a 1 1/2 day hunt due to the weather which inturn left more BUCKS on the mountain than ever before.If you truley believe that taking away tags is a fix all to our deer herds then how can you explain this?
And another thing steve if you think that sitting out for 1-2-3 years will help then why dont you light your tag on fire when it comes in the mail? No ones forcing you to use it right? Think about it if you got all of your friends and family together and had a tag burning party think of all the bucks(deer) you would save that year.heck if you got enough people together you guys could single handedly up the buck/does ratios to limited entry levels after all isn't this what you guys really want?

I'm a true believer in facts.I will never jump on board to hunky dorey feeling type managment.If you or anyone else can show me anything factual from any state, any where, at any time that reducing buck harvest by taking hunters out of the field has ever been shown to actually grow MORE deer please let me know. I myself have looked for such information for some time now with no sucess.So untill proven other wise i and mine will be on the mountain chasing deer every chance we get with out feeling guilty.I love mule deer more than anyone i know and if I thought in anyway that I was causing the herd to deminish by hunting every year I would undoubtably have differnt feelings .

Don't think that just because I'm not a member of SFW that I have never done anything for wildlife.And if your refering to your little feel good projects maybe one of these days you will see me show up to help, hell if the effort is actually going to be done in an area that winters more than a dozen deer maybe I'd come pick you up.
 
Greg Dont change the subject But Ido have a simple question for you. Is the deer hunting any better today in the cache than before Don and SFW
 
>Cache,
>
>Millville face. Sat April 14th 500
>service berry plants need to
>be planted.


The UDWR needs to plant 500 berry plants on the grave of SFW.
 
Rocky,

I was pointing out to Cache, since he couldn't tell me one thing that he has done to help deer hunting in Utah, he may want to help out some, instead of just complaining.

The deer herd has not improved on the Cache IMO. Despite all the efforts. I have a life time license and have not shot a deer in over 15 yrs in UT.

Has SFW tried to help out the deer herd in Cache Valley and UT.

YES. A lot.

USU deer study showed 34 out of 101 does died by cars of the 7 year study.

Between Richmond and Smithfield over 100 deer a year were hit by cars in the area alone. Less than 40 deer were checked into the check station.

There are more signs for cars to slow down in problem areas.
More deer get killed by cars on the Cache than by hunters. Look at UDOT numbers and the DWR check stations.

Weather, winter kills, and predators are a big problem as well.

So what has SFW done?

Helped fund the USU and Monroe deer study to find out some answers.

Increased predator harvest. Harvest quotas for Lions and increased funding for Coyotes.

Paid for Coyote bounties at Als.

Dale Weeks property for winter range and deer feeding sight. It now has a water source, to try to keep deer off the roads and golf course.

Paid for hay to feed Elk on Millville Face, so deer were not competing with elk. Also so the DWR would not cut the elk herd in half, that winter on the Face of Millville.


The only Conservation group that said feed the deer,instead of watching them starve. They said we will pay for the feed until the dwr feeds.

Some things have improved.

We have over the counter Turkey tags thanks to SFW,NWTF, and DWR.

You know we have more sheep and goats.

Trying to recruit kids to hunt and fish. Youth pheasant hunts, skylers pond fishing, sponsored youth trap shooting.

My personal opinion is the deer hunting on the Cache will never be great. I hope the population doubles or triples. Can't do much about road kills. My hope with all the habitat projects and getting 1.2 million for coyote control we will see some progress with our deer herds.

Now answer me a question. Name a group who has done more to try to make hunting better here in the Cache and through out the state?

Good luck in the draws.
 
Hawkeye,

you are a smart guy, we disagree on some things, but you were fair in the last public meeting we had.

Some of SFW biggest supporters were once critics, and after they see what is done and why, they are big supporters. Others, agree to disagree.

I will make time to discuss - debate wildlfie conservation issue for who ever wants to discuss.

But here are some terms for Mr. Fin - i hvae not read everything.

1. WE leave SLC at 8 a.m. on June 20, i drive. we tour some property SFW owns in Beaver Utah, We look at some freeway underpasses, we look at some habitat restoration projects on fedreal lands, and can talk about a lot of issues on the drive.

2. At 7 pm somewhere in SLC we will have a two to three hour discussion - debate - call it what you will, on issues regarding land mangament, wildlfie mangement, wolves, hunting strategies, number of permits, funding of conservation now and into the next ten years. Also glad to discuss why SFW made decisions they did to come up with funding to address many of the problems faced in the past.

I am not on the Board of SFW, have had little to do with the Expo for three years, so i am not going to go off into the weeds on all that stuff.

For sportsmen who truly care about the future of lands, herds, hunting, open to the public, free of charge.

Adam Eakle of Utah's number one outdoor TV show can be the moderator.

Hawkeye, you get the facility, set it up.

I look forward to a good discussion. If Mr. Lamb wants to join us, glad to have him along as well.

Don
 
Good on you THE DON. Really, no sarcasam, if you will really do it then good on you. HOWEVER, and I have no personal beef with Adam, I like his show, BUT he is sitting on 2 expo tags so if you want to not have the criticism perhaps he would not be the best moderator. I too think you tour would be good previous to the debate, however in the spirit of "openess" perhaps Randy will get to check your books, not your IRS or whatever statements, the actual financials that your accountant has in his possession. THE DON, you can't cop out on the expo though, if you really don't know about it then perhaps there is a better spokesman for SFW for Randy to debate. I don't think you have to know the day to day to discuss the expo, you helped set it up, you know plenty. Can't wait to hear times, etc.


When they came for the road hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the oppurtunists I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the public land hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for me there was no one left to say anything!
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-02-12 AT 09:23PM (MST)[p]>
>
>Hawkeye,
>
>you are a smart guy, we
>disagree on some things, but
>you were fair in the
>last public meeting we had.
>
>
>Some of SFW biggest supporters were
>once critics, and after they
>see what is done and
>why, they are big supporters.
> Others, agree to disagree.
>
>
>I will make time to discuss
>- debate wildlfie conservation issue
>for who ever wants to
>discuss.
>
>But here are some terms for
>Mr. Fin - i hvae
>not read everything.
>
>1. WE leave SLC at
>8 a.m. on June 20,
>i drive. we tour
>some property SFW owns in
>Beaver Utah, We look at
>some freeway underpasses, we look
>at some habitat restoration projects
>on fedreal lands, and can
>talk about a lot of
>issues on the drive.
>
>2. At 7 pm somewhere in
>SLC we will have a
>two to three hour discussion
>- debate - call it
>what you will, on issues
>regarding land mangament, wildlfie mangement,
>wolves, hunting strategies, number of
>permits, funding of conservation now
>and into the next ten
>years. Also glad to
>discuss why SFW made decisions
>they did to come up
>with funding to address many
>of the problems faced in
>the past.
>
>I am not on the Board
>of SFW, have had little
>to do with the Expo
>for three years, so i
>am not going to go
>off into the weeds on
>all that stuff.
>
>For sportsmen who truly care about
>the future of lands, herds,
>hunting, open to the public,
>free of charge.
>
>Adam Eakle of Utah's number
>one outdoor TV show can
>be the moderator.
>
>Hawkeye, you get the facility,
>set it up.
>
>I look forward to a good
>discussion. If Mr. Lamb
>wants to join us, glad
>to have him along as
>well.
>
>Don

____________________________________________________________

Outstanding. Looks like there is an opportunity for good to come from all of this after all.

Since the job of a moderator is to lead the direction of the debate; the opposition must all agree upon who the moderator is.

I don't know who the best moderator would be, but it will have to be someone who is as neutral as possible.

Maybe Bryan can start a poll type post that MM members can vote on?

Also, Randy's cameraman gets to film everything.
 
dkpeay:

Thanks for the offer to tour the properties you mention. Polite, but not necessary. I will be at the chosen facility at the time you offer.

You offered a debate, not a discussion. There is a big difference between the two. So, if a debate is acceptable to you, that is what we will have.

I am fine with 7pm in Salt Lake City, on that date, if I can change my Mayo appointment. If I cannot change that appointment, any time the week after that will suffice. Or, any other date that works for you.

This idea was proposed as a moderated debate about the topics always discussed on blogs, forums, and in the news. These topics are all rooted in the same basic tenants - the seven tenants of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation.

If you want, we can email about the topics. I suggest we debate the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation, as that gives us the entire spectrum from wolves, to science-based management, to public ownership of wildlife, to conservation funding, to ..... It is also the topic that started the thread where the debate off was made.

That work for you?

If so, we need to agree upon an impartial moderator who is very knowledgeable on the topic of the debate. Since your group had Shane Mahoney speak at the Expo, I would recommend him as a very good moderator. He is very knowledgeable on the topic.

I am up for two to three hours. You make that call. More than happy to have any TV there.

The moderator is key, as are the agreed upon questions to the topics. Both keep the debate on target and reduces the likelihood that it will become to a "he said, I said" argument that accomplishes nothing.

My email is [email protected]

Feel free to email me with your ideas on the topic and format and we can start the planning.

Thanks for making the offer and acknowledging my acceptance of such when proposed by those who started this thread.

I am sure all benefit from the debate. This process can provide positions on topics that seem to start the most heated discussions related to wildlife and hunting in the west.

It may not solve all that we disagree about, but will hopefully provide viewers some information that helps them further sort out their positions on these topics.

I look forward to hearing from you.

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
Don just passed the ball, Now let's get this thing together and get the right people to the debate.

How about 2 mod's to keep things even steven.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Come on Don you dont want to talk about the expo??
You are not on the board-do you really think we are stupid enough to believe you dont know anything about whats lining your pockets.??? Sure there are a lot of things we want to hear about but the expo is # 1 or 2 on the list!!!
Let's get this done- I'M sure there are 1,000s of us that cant wait for it to happen.SOONER THE BETTER.!!!
 
Tag welfare is important to SFW. The handout got renewed so that is a guaranteed decade of welfare. SFW relies on this money and prestige of the regional Expo or they would not continue to accept the handout. That welfaare subsidy from the tax payers of Utah can not be ignored and should not be ignored in any discussion on how SFW goes about its operations.

Shucks, I do not know much about that tag grab I engineered. Right. Seriously? Just a regular Joe now with no clue how SFW operates? That is sticky and smelly stuff right there.
 
Don-

I respect your decision to debate Randy. I am more than happy to help find a suitable location. I may reach out to the same monstermuleys.com member that arranged for the room for our last meeting, although we will likely need a larger space. Please communicate directly with Randy regarding a moderator. I think either Shane Mahoney or Adam Eackle would be suitable but it needs to be someone that you two agree upon. We can work out additional details once you two agree upon the date and the moderator. Thank you for stepping up to the plate.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-02-12 AT 11:48PM (MST)[p]I can't wait to see how this one turns out.

Tony Abbott
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-02-12 AT 11:50PM (MST)[p]FYI.

There were 2 people who traveled the state several times to get the expo tags allocated to the expo and at those meetings it was promised that a significant amount of the money raised from the expo tags would go on the ground in Utah for wildlife;

I was one of those 2 people, care to guess who the other was?

1 of the 2 people who were the driving forces behind the expo tags did not want any specific percentage amount of the money raised from the expo tags earmarked for specific projects, that way the money could be spent on anything the groups wanted, That person was not me. Any guess who it was?

The answers are there if you guys just want to look for them.


Tony Abbott
 
Please ask for questions from the hunting websites for the debate. One more thing. Please hook both Randy and Don up to a lie detector with a meter behind each man.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-03-12 AT 07:41AM (MST)[p]>So we'll see you there Zim?

338boy,

In case you haven't noticed, I have posted zero comments or requests that a debate ever happen. I totally don't care. I consider it a waste of valuable energy. Energy that could be spent destroying SFW. That energy needs to be spent exposing SFW's corruption, political payoffs & abuse of public resources to state & national media. Energy that should be spent informing locals on how to defend their state game commission appointment boards from being infected by SFW toadies. Energy that needs to be spent educating gullible legislators to the North American Model for Wildlife Conservation, and SFW's forked tongue. Like Gilstrap representing they had the support of so many conservation orgs when the only one that hadn't jumped ship was the AZ Horned Toad Society or something.

I genuinely wish good luck to those choosing to spend time debating. But I can sit here in my cubicle and talk to the wall. Results will be the same.

***********************************
Member RMEF, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club
 
Good to see your still the stand up guy you have always been, NOT!!! You wouldn't know the truth if it came up and bit you in the ass. How can you even say the crap you are when you use to be a part of SFW and know the truth? Maybe people would like to know the real reason you are no longer with them, so please, stop patting yourself on the back and quit acting like you just broke Watergate open.
 
Holy crap if this goes down it will be epic. Can't wait!

"Whatever you are, be a good one."
- Abraham Lincoln
 
The debate is going to take place but not on June 20th. Randy was unable to move his previously scheduled appointment at the Mayo Clinic. Randy has suggested some alternative dates and we are just waiting to hear back from Don. Once we have a final date and time, we will let you all know and make arrangements for a suitable location. Thank you to those of you who have offered to help with arranging a location. And thank you Don and Randy for agreeing to participate in this event.


Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
There is one person who used to work for SFW and for MDF, who no longer works for either conservation group. This person used to make some good money from the 10% "management fee" part of conservation permits. His chance to make money off these permits have been taken away. I think this person has an ax to grind with both of these groups according to his post. This person, said he is glad that he has cost these groups some money. Grind, grind, grind.
 
"Grind, grind, grind."

Sounds to me more like a guy that went to work for a couple groups and their basic concepts changed to the point where he decided enough was enough. It takes balls to cut your own throat (money!) and take a position that models the NAM, rather than a bunch of tag grabbing opportunists that are lining their pockets with money they aren't legally entitled to!
 
Greg,

FYI the "grinder" is not the only one who has left SFW because of difference with the SFW leadership. He is one of the few who frequent this site. However, we both know the list is significant and includes many respectable folks of which I believe Tony "the grinder" is included.
I also realize over the years you have made some decisions many of us find appalling as have I. Maybe those who live in glass houses should not cast the first stone.

This thread is about a debate between what many see as SFW's model of wildlife management and that which has been endorsed and used for decades. Maybe we should allow it to focus on this event.

If you have an axe to grind with anyone or anything you might want to start another thread.
 
Tony tried to insert himself into the debate. Which is typical. So no need to start another post, Gregs comment was relevant!
 
Travis,

You are correct. I have many friends, some who are SFW supporters and some are not. And a couple dislike them. They are still friends. We will wait and see what if some common solutions come out of this debate. It was Tony that came on the thread, saying how he is proud that he cost conservation groups SFW and MDF a lot of money, that he is no longer part of.

You are correct. Tony is not perfect, I'm not perfect,Don is not perfect, and neither are you. I don't know of a perfect conservation group. I guess we need to weigh the pros and cons. Some believe that it would be better for hunting, and the future of hunting if SFW went away. I have another opinion.
I think we can manage our elk herds differently to provide more opportunity and still have great quality.

I'm sure you read my reply to Rocky. Look at the things SFW has done locally. You have got to admit. They have been supportive of local sportsmen. As a volunteer, like you I have tried to make a difference. We may no agree on a few things.

Greg
 
Muley_73 (672 posts)
Apr-03-12, 02:40 PM (MST)
74. "RE: DEBATE - dkpeay vs. BigFin"
Tony tried to insert himself into the debate. Which is typical. So no need to start another post, Gregs comment was relevant!


*** You seem to be saying in your post that this thread is not open to Tony just because he stated facts that he knows from first hand experience working with the stated groups! IMO his posts were as relevant, if not more so, than Greg's!
 
So "50" just admitted people are making gravy on the conservation permits. That is part of the problem with SFW. We would like to know exactly how much gravy is getting spread around and to whom.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-03-12 AT 04:18PM (MST)[p]They have been supportive of local sportsmen.

Really?

How is trying to strip the local sportsmen of public access to rivers being supportive of same?

SFW Founder Don Peay did just that...want the quote?

How is Don Peay/SFW and Ryan Benson/BGF asking their membership to stop the Tester/Simpson wolf delisting that has allowed MT and ID to control wolves being supportive of local sportsmen?

Want the memos?

Real "supportive"....I must say.
 
This is good. I'm pleased that the debate looks like it will happen at some point. A face to face meeting will do a lot to answer questions I'm sure many of us have. Maybe a poll could be taken to answer some questions us sportsmen have? Also, the debate will eliminate all the personal drivel that crops up on these threads. Looking forward to it! mtmuley
 
TOPGUN:

I'm glad you are ok. I was starting to worry something might have happened to you. Look forward to seeing you at the debate.

Yours truly in Michigan whitetail conservation, woodruffhunter
 
I really hope Arizona and the late night tag grab HB2072 is debated and how it would benefit the "average" sportsman and where ALL the money generated by selling public big game tags to the highest bidder would end up.
 
Topgun,

Not at all. Tony is more that welcome to post his "silver bullets" as much as he'd like. However the intent of the original post was for a debate between Don and Randy. Tony said he needed to be part of the debate, that's not how debates work.

Gregs post was relevant! Because Tonys post made it relevant.
 
Muley73 why can't Tony post his comments about the debate? You afraid more of the truth that he knows about SFW will come out. SFW koolaid drinkers keep saying look at all the good things that SFW done with public money, meanwhile always ignore the bad things that SFW has done.

How can we ignore the bad and only look at the good things. There are plenty of bad things that SFW has done over the years which shouldn't be ignored.

It sounds like Tony said that SFW had some pretty shady record book keeping going on and this is one reason why SFW doesnt like to be more transparent because more hunters would realize how crooked they really are.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-03-12 AT 08:24PM (MST)[p]Muley_73 (673 posts)
Apr-03-12, 07:57 PM (MST)
83. "RE: DEBATE - dkpeay vs. BigFin"
Topgun,

Not at all. Tony is more that welcome to post his "silver bullets" as much as he'd like. However the intent of the original post was for a debate between Don and Randy. Tony said he needed to be part of the debate, that's not how debates work.

Gregs post was relevant! Because Tonys post made it relevant.

***Where do you see anything in a post by Tony saying he wants in on the debate? All he has stated is that he knows a lot about the inner workings of the organization and wanted to be there to see that no lies would be offered up by a person in the debate. Just his mere presence would probably do the trick if the Grand Puba is as smart as all of his subordinates say he is, LOL! It would appear that Greg doesn't want the truth spoken, so I guess his post was relevant in that we now know he's an official Koolaid drinker.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-03-12 AT 08:18PM (MST)[p]I think Tony doesn't want Don to get away from the debate by telling all his lies. Someone has to be Don's moderator. Maybe Don can wear a shock collar and Tony can push the button everytime Don starts to lie.
 
I see that DON offered to take Randy on a worthless bragging trip where DON can brag how much HE has done for wildlife.

Don can jump the highest, fart the loudest, run the fastest, but I'm glad that Randy know DON better and he doesn't want to go on DON bragging trip since it's a waste of time.
 
I say as a SFW supporter there is no better person than Tony to be a mod. If theres nothin to hide/lie hes just there to listen and agree with Don. Since the debate is not with Tony he will not be able to bring up issues.
 
Thanks fellas for the support and kind words and clarification for Cody and Greg on what I ACTUALLY said. They appear as the ones to have an AX to grind with me :)I NEVER bring any of them up until they cast the stones 1st, That should tell you all you need to know about them.

I dropped my ax on those groups already and it will drop again If/when it is needed.

Yes I made GOOD money from each of those groups and the money I made was EARNED and none of them will tell you I didn't earn it and they will say it was deserved for what I brought to the groups individually and together. NEITHER group happens to represent much of my views so I have no desire to support either.

FYI. I tried to contact both groups last year with a GREAT money making project for wildlife, both of them and me as well but I was turned down without them even wanting to hear what my project/idea was. I speculate that it was because of their dislike for the pain they believe I have caused them.

Trust me when I tell you BOTH groups were much better when I left then when I started and both make a pretty good chunk still off a program myself and Don CREATED, (HUNT EXPO TAGS).....

Yes If I was at the debate I imagine it would go differently then if I was not there. Just like the last meeting they had a couple years ago would of gone differently if I had been able to attend.

I would be a good moderator as I am as familiar with the topics as any but I don't think I am the BEST person to moderate it and so though I have not been asked I will let you know now I AM NOT INTERESTED for the betterment of the debate for all of you that want it to happen.

Also I am pretty sure someone would not agree to it if I was participating.

There is a thing called Justice and it will be served on the whoring out of Utahs wildlife in due time as well as the blatant disregard for the importance of the "everyday" sportsman that built these conservation groups and the destruction of a wildlife model that has PROVEN to work.

So Cody and Greg GRIND GRIND GRIND away. I was there from the beginning and involved in EVERY aspect all through the mass growth and also their getting away from what got them successful in my opinion, neither of you were. I have NO ax to grind I only want the truth to be told and people to understand how things were done and what was promised with the creation of the Hunt Expo.

I hope I am in town when this event takes place as I will make sure I am there to listen to what is being said. I do not hold out hope that much if anything will be accomplished by this event but I applaud those of you that want it to happen and are willing ti make it happen.

I have seen the song and dance for almost 15 years, I know how it ends and I know the dialogue and the beat. It has not changed and will not change until they have ALL THE CONTROL or you attack it at its very core and cut off its head.

I hope I am wrong about the debate and that something good come of it, I think Hawkeye and the others have a deep love for Utahs wildlife and are doing what they think can make it better. I applaud them.

Best wishes to all of you in your desires, and that includes you Greg and Cody. I set my ship to sail and put the ax in the shed a long long time ago.





Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
Tony,
Never an ax to grind until you jump on the stump. I have said before you yell loud and I will respond.

The more of I have thought about it I really wish you would moderate the debate. It would probably be more entertaining and that is about all that will be accomplished is entertainment.

We have all chosen our sides and regardless of what each guy says we will hear it or spin it the way we want to hear it. Actually facts are swept aside by both sides.

I do find it intresting that you state with great conviction your hate for SFW and MDF. Yet you turn around and make this commment

"FYI. I tried to contact both groups last year with a GREAT money making project for wildlife, both of them and me as well but I was turned down without them even wanting to hear what my project/idea was. I speculate that it was because of their dislike for the pain they believe I have caused them."

You hate or disapprove of these organiztions enough to as you say, "dropped my ax on them". Yet just last year tried to approach them about invovling yourself with "a GREAT money making project for wildlife" one you refer to as "my project/idea".

Hats off for staying involved and looking for ways to generate money for our wildlife. You have done a very good job in the past and I am sure your recent idea would have also been a success. I just dont understand why if you dislike these groups so much you would seek to realign yourself with them?

Either way I do also wish you best also. I know you do care about our wildlife and I am sure you will stay involved. Don't leave your ax hung up to long. More work can be accomplished with a sharp one.
 
I would just like to see the debate in BFE. I've been to Cairo but I'm not sure where BF is and would like to see the terrain.
 
I dont hate the groups, I hate what they have turned in to.

Like all of our ax's, I wont let it gather too much dust.....

Tony Abbott
www.myfreehunts.com
The next buck to have a fawn will be the
1st.
 
Tony,

I don't have any ax to grind with you. I was stating the obvious, what you said.
I also like how you contradicted yourself in your previous post.

I'm for a balance of quality and opportunity. I'm for doing what needs to be done to help the future of hunting for our kids.

You hate some groups that you used to be apart of. That is obvious. You stated that you were glad you cost them money. That is your words.

You think SFW is just about the rich. I disagree.
I wish you luck. We agree on more than we disagree.

Greg
 
I beleive to have Tony Abbott as the moderator would be a mistake.

The reason being I feel the Moderator has to be able to ask the hard question and still be far enough removed that personal bias does not influence the debate!

I have no problem with Tony attending or even submitting questions. I hope he does, but to pretend that there is no rub between the two party's is foolish.

If you are looking for a panel debate/discussion that is a diffrent story. But from what I see this a debate between two individuals Randy & Don. If you would rather Tony take the place of Randy I dont think you would find Don in opposition either is fine!




X-treme
Troy Justensen
 
Don and Randy agreed to a debate. They are currently in direct communication with one other regarding the exact date and the selection of a moderator. The moderator will not be Tony Abbott but it will be someone they mutually agree upon. Details are forthcoming.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Hawk eye did u get my email this morning regarding Shane Mahoney V Geist and the tour ?
 
Don, I did receive your email. I am just waiting to hear back from Randy. I will make sure I use that email address in the future.

Thanks.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Apology to HUNT50 (Greg)

In the heat of the moment I used language that was more personal than intended in a short narrative.

My intent was to simply remind Greg that as we serve others we will be scrutinized for our service and not all will be happy with our decisions.

Greg is a stand up guy who has done much for wildlife and service to the the sportsman of Utah. My intent is not to insult or question his integrity in any way.

Travis Sparks
 

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