Don Peay: The Man Who Would Be King...Baron

Almost there!!!

:7


"The problem with quotes on Internet Forums is that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
 
Nice job Tall and Muley. Way to keep 'er goin


Founder - What do we win for getting to 200?


"The problem with quotes on Internet Forums is that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
 
>Nice job Tall and Muley.
>Way to keep 'er goin

>Founder - What do we win
>for getting to 200?

Don't most of the SFW bantering go over 200 posts? Just saying...



Tallbuck1
 
That was funny Muley! Very nice :)


"The problem with quotes on Internet Forums is that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
 
How about a chance at one of those Browning Guns, oh wait they dont use Browning guns anymore... they use Remington to keep their costs down even though Browning is a HUGE supporter of SFW...



Tallbuck1
 
Here's a question that I haven't heard much about that still concerns me, sorry that if I piss those off that don't want SFW to get involved with the mash lands.

There needs to be more done with the "CANCER" of the marsh "FRAG". I know that there is a lot of money spent there as well. I know of more trophy hunts that have happened for kids and men and women alike. Pretty soon there will be people wanting to fill the marsh for more building and highways, and bridges across Utah lake. When Sfw was established they told us that we had to buy habitat and make it public so we had could have places to hunt in the future.

They purchased different lands for winter range way back then. What about more access for waterfowlers and upland game habitat (phesants) up north? We need land to have our grandkids to hunt on, weather it be mountains or marshes.
 
I find it VERY funny and ironic that Topgun states how Tri is the cancer "pot-stirring" azzhat.....when I find BOTH of them completely annoying and never having anything but arguing to say...EVER!!!

Pot...meet Kettle!!!!!!!
 
>Tall / Aaron wrong again this
>year it was a Browning
>A-bolt 7mm.


Only one? Used to give away dozens. Thanks for clarifying.


Tallbuck1
 
FLEH

"I find it VERY funny and ironic that Topgun states how Tri is the cancer "pot-stirring" azzhat.....when I find BOTH of them completely annoying and never having anything but arguing to say...EVER!!!

Pot...meet Kettle!!!!!!!"

+1000
 
I actually saw quite a few Browning guns at the banquets I've attended this year. In fact I saw mostly Browning at the Davis banquet.

Tall,
Is that the reason you left, the guns in the raffle were not nice enough? Not worth your tickets, even the extra ones?
 
>How about a chance at one
>of those Browning Guns, oh
>wait they dont use Browning
>guns anymore... they use Remington
>to keep their costs down
>even though Browning is a
>HUGE supporter of SFW...
>
>
>
>Tallbuck1


DENIAIL !!! Now you are making up lies in an effort to get revenge. Yes you definitely are that type of guy. You have proven that. We had 35 cooperate tables at out Davis/Weber banquet two weeks ago.The the corporate guns were all Browning Abolt 7mm rifles. There were many others in the two dollar bill game and general raffle. We also gave a 20 gauge Citori away. Im looking forward to you returning my phone call. We are meeting tonight as a committee tonight at 6. You know where we meet come visit us.
 
>I actually saw quite a few
>Browning guns at the banquets
>I've attended this year.
>In fact I saw mostly
>Browning at the Davis banquet.
>
>
>Tall,
>Is that the reason you left,
> the guns in the
>raffle were not nice enough?
> Not worth your tickets,
> even the extra ones?
>
Oh mule.... Your so smart. You saw through all my drama and bad experiences with sfw and narrowed it down to me being sad about the browning guns.

Thank you thank you, I truly appreciate you council and insight.


Ha ha ha ha!!!! What a crock of crap!

Tallbuck1
 
>DENIAIL !!! Now you are making
>up lies in an effort
>to get revenge. Yes you
>definitely are that type of
>guy. You have proven that.
>We had 35 cooperate tables
>at out Davis/Weber banquet two
>weeks ago.The the corporate guns
>were all Browning Abolt 7mm
>rifles. There were many others
>in the two dollar bill
>game and general raffle. We
>also gave a 20 gauge
>Citori away. Im looking forward
>to you returning my phone
>call. We are meeting tonight
>as a committee tonight at
>6. You know where we
>meet come visit us.


I am NOT in denial at all... There was a point in time not so long ago that Browning was put down and the Remington were bought by the pallets and shipped to the SFW warehouse in Layton due to a cheaper cost. I saw this first hand and Inventoried them!

Good for SFW to go back to what was working... Everyone loves Browning and are excited to own one, so I am glad to hear that they again were on the corp tables giveaways.



Tallbuck1
 
There are those of us that know 1st hand about what happened and then there is the rest of you.

The big picture given 19 years ago was that the deer herds in Utah would be fixed in 5-10 years.

Well we have less deer hunters now by nearly 150,000 and shorter seasons and less opportunity and many many more restrictions.

Wonder how many more years until the big picture comes to fruition?

The truth is that the promises made have not nor will they be kept. Just like this President and his administration is full of lies and promises they could not and never intended to keep so is
the promises made for Utahs deer herds.

It is a shame that like our children will suffer for all the debt this country is in those same children will suffer for the massive loss of deer hunting opportunity in this state.

Now even though there is more elk and goat and antelope and turkey, all those increased animals put together do not even begin to make up for the loss of deer hunting opportunity. We have less hunters today then we did when the "big picture" was shown to us.

Big picture is there is less hunters and less hunting opportunity today then there was when the "big picture" was laid out.

The facts say we need a new big picture that will actually fix the deer herds, not the same outdated picture that has crippled the hunting future for our kids.

SO if we keep doing what the founders of the "big picture" say we should keep doing we will only end up with less hunting opportunity.

Tony Abbott
 
Tony, great "big picture" post. I couldn't have said it better.

Grizzly

PS. Tristate, please be an adult and respect my wishes that you do not respond to any of my posts. I, in turn, will do you the courtesy of not responding to any of yours. I simply do not wish to converse with you.
 
Tony, If the State is headed in the wrong direction, why don't you get a group together and head it in the right direction. You seem to know what needs to be done.
 
You mean..... Another group.... Another opportunity. Tony you are right you've personally been in some positions to make difference. What would you do differently this time to make it right. Tell us how you would get the deer herd back to 800,000. That's the big picture. 800,000+ down to 230,000. That is where all the hunters have been lost and they should be cut back with that lose. It's the right thing to do with that much lose of a resource. I will never defend the SFW on our current deer situation. They did promise and they failed miserably with the deer herd. But currently they are the only ones along with the MDF doing much to help it. So please step up and create a group that can and will do more for the deer herd and I'm all in. That does not mean create more opportunity it means create more deer. Then we can add in opportunity.
 
Cody it's good to see you following the philosophy
Of "do something even if its wrong"

Dude you said above that SFWealthy has been
A miserable failure at growing more deer and
In the next breath you say you support them??

They've had damn near 20 years to show results
With their philosophy and YOUR conclusion is
Accurate. So instead of trying a different approach
You continue to double down on a 20 year trend
Of failing miserably.

For the life of me I can't see how there could
Be a worse track record over almost 20 years.

More koolaid or snake oil anybody??




"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
It goes beyond the huge decline in deer numbers.
The huge human population increase, the technological advances in both motorized transportation and weaponry, the increasingly obsessive trophy mentality of hunters and the information age. Those things alone mean we can never go back to the good ole days.
Declining deer numbers? how about plant succession?, climate change?, urban sprawl?, how about highway mortality with higher speed limits?.
Your throwing your money away if your giving to any group that says they can really change things, for the most part they are just playing a game to help themselves
 
Willy,
I have always questioned SFW regarding the deer herds...ALWAYS. But right now as of this moment they are pushing to kill more coyotes. They have pushed for habitat. They are funding highway underpass projects. They are doing more than any other group so they have my support.

But I'll be honest about my agenda, many many on here are not. I'm comfortable with my stance and I'll keep fighting .
 
73 "my agenda" has never been a secret.

It is simply to ask myself one question. Is it good
For wildlife. Any decision or practice. If the answer
To that one question is yes count me in.

It has secondly been about not turning the State
Of Utah in to a private hunting club for the rich
And famous. In hunting you can lower success
And put more hunters in the field or you can
Limit hunters and raise success by way of helicopters
10 to 1 guide to hunter ratios and all of the technology
Piper explained above. By the way piper +100

I've seen the failed experiment since 1994 and
Just like you said it is a failure.

The SFW model ain't good for wildlife. It's great
For millionaires from Idaho and those taking from
The publics resource, but for Utah's hunters and its
Herds it's a 20 year smoldering dumpster fire.

Any further questions about my agenda??





"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Willy,
Your agenda was not one I was questioning. I agree that there can be other options to limit success. Lets not forget that the funding or lack of for the DWR is really the root of this problem. Fix that years ago and address the deer herd issues back in the early 90s and guess what....there is no SFW. They are not the problem they are a product of our states view on wildlife. They do more good than any group willy, if I'm wrong then please name the group, and explain. Not the bad that the SFW does... But the actual good that this other group has done and is doing.
 
I was in a position of influence for nearly 10 years. And lots of good came from the above named groups during those 10 years, but along the way many bad things were put in place because of greed and selfishness. And that is why I am not in the industry or with either group any more.

This is why I am out of that industry. This state does not need another group, this state needs to look at all the facts they already have and have the stones to make the decisions to correct the wrong that is happening.

More high priced tags and killing deer on Antelope island will do little if anything for the deer POPULATION. Now it will do wonders for the TROPHY population but we know very few benefit from that game plan.

I don't have all the answers but I do know what does not work, yet this state continues to do it anyway. Nearly 20 years of the same thing has done NOTHING for the deer population. That is indisputable.

This state and specifically a few people and a couple groups want trophy opportunities statewide. This is easy to do. All you have to do is limit harvest and you will get trophy hunting for the rich and the lucky few who win the lottery. This mind set regardless of the millions it has raised is the problem with our deer herds.

You cannot buy happiness and you cannot buy a healthy deer population. These are 2 proven statements that trophy hunters and greedy people will never admit or even realize. They think 270" deer on an island is a success story, they think 500" bulls are a success story, they think 45 trophy tags on the Henry Mountains is a success story, they think bighorn sheep on the tops of cars in Provo and pleasant grove is a success story, etc. etc. etc.

These are not success story's these are all TRAVESTY'S.....

My commenting on this post was not to come on here and make people think I have all the answers to our deer problems, my posting was to show what you all already know...... what is being done is smoke and mirrors and a few are getting RICH off of it and the rest of us are looking for table scraps.

There is nothing personal between me or any of the people you all defend or hate. I have moved on to taking care of my future and quit frankly I am enjoying it and hunting more than I ever have and NO ONE cares which is fine with me.

If you want to fix things with the deer population it can be fixed..... but like cancer those in position of power don't really want the herds fixed... if the herds got fixed they would lose their battle cry.

To an extent they already have lost their battle cry with deer which is why their new cry is the BIG BAD WOLF...... Now that is laughable.

HAve a good weekend.







Tony Abbott
 
Allright I can see the wealth haters have shown back up so lets get the conversation headed towards logic.


Will all the SFW people and anti-SFW people, please post what they want the state management goals 1-5, most important to least important, for the mule deer? This is a serious question. If you want the mule deer issues solved yall need to start talking about this. Quit worrying about rich people you hate, or so called broken promises. Lets start with basics and we can build a model from there.
 
Fishon,

You are funny. On one hand you blame SFW for years of not improving Utahs deer herd. You complain, complain, the rich get to hunt Henrys and Antelope Island, and then say you don't have the answers.

The truth is deer are struggeling everywhere in the west. Not just Utah.

USU deer study 2001-2007 collared 101 does. SFW paid 60K to help with the study.

Findings
1. 34 died from cars
2. 33 died malnourishment, winter kill. This happens more in Northen Utah.
3. 5 died age related
4. 4 Predators
5. 19 died unknown, I would bet some from predators
6. 2 Poaching
There are other studies Monroe Mountain, and this years recent transplant. ALL supported by SFW and DWR. So don't say that SFW hasn't done anything. They have done alot of habitat projects, predator control Lions and coyotes, underpasses for migration routes,passed Prop 5 so we can still trap and hound hunt, and many more things.

THe truth is we have more cars on the road. Cars kill more deer than hunters in Utah.

We can't poison predators like we did 30 years ago.

Habitat has decreased in quality and quantity in many places.

SFW has helped withs ALL 3 of these main problem. More so than any other group.

If you don't like SFW and think it's just for the rich, thats fine. THe odds to draw a Henrys tag are pretty high. There is a percentage of hunters that want some of these type of hunts. I will never hunt the henrys for deer. Thats OK with me. Some hunters want to wait for a once and a life time hunt.

Start up another group if you think your smart and have the answers, we will seen how the deer herd comes back with your group over the next 15 years.

Enough said.
 
"Start up another group if you think your smart and have the answers, we will seen how the deer herd comes back with your group over the next 15 years."


They allready have groups for these guys. Their buddy that wrote the letter at the beginning of the page allready belongs to them. At least he flys the flag proudly and we all know where he stands. The people that argue for him are just closet anti-hunters.
 
Huntin50, I hope you had a good banquet over the weekend.

I think we can all agree that the decline in mule deer is caused by a variety of issues. Most people agree habitat loss and habitat depreciation caused by lack of wildfires, predation, and competition with elk as main causes.

I wondered if you saw the article by Garth Carter in the HuntinFool a few months ago about mule deer. (For those that don't know, Garth was a wildlife biologist with DWR for 20 years, so he deserves some credibility).

Garth makes an argument I have never heard before saying that by raising buck:doe numbers to 30:100, it shortens the breeding season thereby shortening the fawning season. He says fawns are born at a rate of 180 fawns per 100 does. That number is down to 50 fawns per 100 does by September, much of which is caused by predation. His reasoning is that higher buck:doe numbers causes does to fawn at the same time and shortens the 5 week timespan that fawns are especially susceptible to coyotes.

I always bought into the idea that bucks don't give birth to fawns so it only took 12-15 bucks to 100 does to fully breed. Maybe there is something we are missing there. He points to some specific examples as proof that increased buck:doe ratios equaled increasing herd size, not just horn size.

Grizzly

PS. Tristate, please be an adult and respect my wishes that you do not respond to any of my posts. I, in turn, will do you the courtesy of not responding to any of yours. I simply do not wish to converse with you.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-18-13 AT 12:37PM (MST)[p]"I think we can all agree that the decline in mule deer is caused by a variety of issues. Most people agree habitat loss and habitat depreciation caused by lack of wildfires, predation, and competition with elk as main causes."

No doubt and reasons vary with different areas.

"I wondered if you saw the article by Garth Carter in the HuntinFool a few months ago about mule deer. (For those that don't know, Garth was a wildlife biologist with DWR for 20 years, so he deserves some credibility)."

I did not but am interested.

"Garth makes an argument I have never heard before saying that by raising buck:doe numbers to 30:100, it shortens the breeding season thereby shortening the fawning season. He says fawns are born at a rate of 180 fawns per 100 does. That number is down to 50 fawns per 100 does by September, much of which is caused by predation. His reasoning is that higher buck:doe numbers causes does to fawn at the same time and shortens the 5 week timespan that fawns are especially susceptible to coyotes.

I always bought into the idea that bucks don't give birth to fawns so it only took 12-15 bucks to 100 does to fully breed. Maybe there is something we are missing there. He points to some specific examples as proof that increased buck:doe ratios equaled increasing herd size, not just horn size."


This realy isn't how deer breading and birthing cycles work. While I would agree that if we could narrow the dates in which fawns are birthed you could reduce the effects of predation, sort of a safety in numbers theory, you can not effect the birthing window through buck to doe ratios.

This is where I am going to cause a lot of controversy because many of us have been influenced by bad science about "the rut". Many of us believe that a rut is often influenced by temperature, moon phases, or other seasonal influences. This is actually incorrect. The period of "rut" is determined by doe that cycle and that time is determined by their specific genes. You can actually pic a specific study area and kill a study group of doe. You can take fetal measurements of fawns within the doe and actually narrow to within a couple of days when the fetus was concieved. You can then plot those days on a graph and you will notice a peak time event start to show itself. Of course there will be a few outliers and that is a seperate, and good, thing that allows for survivability of the species. However when you collect this data over several years you begin to notice that the peak days of the rut (time of conception) will be the same year after year, regardless of temperature or the moon. These doe have been geneticly selected for thousands of generations to make babies at a specific time that is most likey to yeild living viable offspring that are most likely to survive to sexual viability themselves. The only external force that we have seen effect a rut is extreme droubt and famine. When the doe are actually so significantly stressed that it delays their cycle or negates it all together. However research on this is very limited since it gets dificult to develop trend data in the most extreme of variables that can be recreated multiple years in a row.

I hope I have helped.
 
Grizz,

The banquet was great. Lot's of people happy. We netted 38K without tags. We had about 420 adults and 80 kids. Every kid won a good prize. Tags sold very well for the most part.

I did read Garth's Article. My uncle worked with the DWR when Garth worked for them. Garth makes his living on trophy hunts, which is fine. Todd Black also has thoughts along with Garth. I personally believe after reading lots of research, 20 bucks per 100 does with decent age structure is great and more optimal.

The Henrys and other places that have 40 bucks per 100 does have problems with fawn recruitment. Gunnison basin was hit hard with winter kill 5 years ago and many units had 40 bucks per 100 does in those units. If you have 20 bucks per 100 does with good age structure, 90+% of the does will be bred during their first cycle.

Dennis Austin and many other biologist have studies that show 7 bucks per 100 does are adequate for breeding.

When you have more than 20 bucks per 100 does you restrict hunter opportunity for trophy's. Example Henry's a unit Fishon calls a travesty. It's OK in my opinion to have some LE units for those great hunts, a certin percentage of hunters want it, just look at the odds to draw a tag. It is not OK for most units. We need to be able to hunt and recruit kids. It's hard to recruit kids if they can only hunt every couple years.

If some had there way,"Fishon", we would have a lot more hunters which means either poor harvest results less quality, archery hunts, more hunters, and a buck to doe ratio 10-15 per a 100 does, a 3 day hunt, or other things, because "bucks don't have does". The truth is you need to have a balance.

We need to save more deer from vehicle collisions, predators, continue with habitat projects, highway under passes, continue with research that SFW is doing with the DWR, and with some good weather we might get more deer back. In my opinion SFW is doing everything they can. They can't control the weather. Just a few thoughts.
 
Here is the Trib article so you don't have to click on the link...

When Don Peay founded Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife in 1993, few could have dreamed that it would blossom into a powerful multi-million operation with a presence in seven western states and in national politics.

The group formed as Utah mule deer populations were crashing. Peay, an avid hunter, decided to do something about it.

There is little doubt that Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife has done much good. It has spent money to purchase or improve wildlife habitat and raised $7.2 million for conservation over the past 10 years. It recently wrote a check for more than $1 million to the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources.

Such expenditures bring the organization sway with state wildlife managers. Some think the relationship might be too cozy. Money and political clout often give the impression that SFW and not the DWR is in charge of wildlife in Utah.

Consider a 2010 Utah Wildlife Board meeting when SFW president Byron Bateman presented then-DWR director Jim Karpowitz with a check for $391,000 moments before the Wildlife Board passed a controversial proposal largely crafted and promoted by SFW to reduce the number of deer-hunting permits by at least 13,000.

I fear that the organization has become increasingly more about making money for its officers, commercializing Utah?s wildlife, and aligning itself with groups such as off-highway vehicle organizations and right-wing politicians intent on Utah taking over federal public lands. How these things help wildlife or the average hunter escapes me.

Some of SFW?s fundraising efforts, especially those taking advantage of hunters? mythical fears that the main reason for the decline in big game herds, especially mule deer, is predation. Damn the biology or the fact that the reasons deer herds are down are far more complex than predation. Advocating killing wolves, coyotes, cougars and bears to save deer, elk and other big game is a great way to raise funds and gain members. No matter that wiping out predators is ecologically questionable and, except in a few specific units, not particularly effective.

The organization successfully lobbied the Utah Legislature to appropriate general tax dollars as well as raise hunting license fees to increase bounties on coyotes, encouraging the wanton killing of coyotes everywhere. I can't find a single reputable biologist who thinks this action will help deer herds. But the simplistic solution sounds good to uninformed legislators and hunters and helps raise money.

The Utah Legislature also gave an offshoot SFW organization called Big Game Forever a second $300,000 contract to lobby Washington politicians to keep wolves out of Utah. Though a few stray wolves may have wandered into northern Utah, there is no evidence wolves are going to ever be a major problem in the state. There has been no detailed report as to how Big Game Forever spent the first $300,000. The group is not registered to lobby in Washington, D.C.

SFW and its officers also donate money freely to dozens of politicians.

One of the recipients was State Sen. Ralph Okerlund, R-Monroe, who received $6,500 in campaign contributions from Peay and Ryan Benson, co-founder of Big Game Forever. Okerlund, the Senate Majority Leader, recommended spending $300,000 this year on Big Game Forever?s anti-wolf lobbying campaign.

Figuring out just how much Peay and other officers make in salary or consulting fees is challenging. Money is moved back and forth from non-profits to private corporations among groups such as Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife, Sportsmen for Habitat, Big Game Forever, Arctic Red River Outfitters, Peay Consulting, World Trophy Outfitters, the Full Curl Society, the Foundation for North American Wild Sheep, seven state chapters of SFW and the Mule Deer Foundation ? which is part of a major wildlife convention where the state gives conservation organizations wildlife tags to auction. The groups get to keep 10 percent of the proceeds for administrative costs. In the case of application fees raised at the 2012 Western Hunting and Conservation Expo, hunters pay in hopes of drawing a difficult-to-get hunting tag, SFW and the Mule Deer Foundation reported $613,572 in expenses of holding the drawing, with the remaining $443,417 actually going to conservation projects.

Has any of this helped big game in Utah? You be the judge.

The number of deer hunters afield dropped from 146,008 in 1993 when SFW was founded to 80,425 in 2011. The number of bucks killed dropped from 23,024 to 21,291. The number of antelope, moose and bison hunters and animals harvested also declined during that same time period.

The success stories are elk and bighorn sheep. Utah elk hunters have increased from 48,372 in 1993 to 57,241 in 2011, with the bull harvest going from 6,066 to 6,923. The bighorn sheep harvest jumped from 17 in 1993 to 54 in 2011.

While SFW and its many subsidiaries might do some good for wildlife, those who donate thinking they are helping big game should realize that many of these groups? officers have a heavy financial stake in the operation. And the continued commercialization of what is the public?s wildlife should cause concern that herds are being managed not on the basis of sound biology but in ways to produce more cash.


Grizzly

PS. Tristate, please be an adult and respect my wishes that you do not respond to any of my posts. I, in turn, will do you the courtesy of not responding to any of yours. I simply do not wish to converse with you.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-18-13 AT 02:08PM (MST)[p]>http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/56012807-78/wildlife-utah-sfw-deer.html.csp
>
>
>
>"The future is large scale auction
>tags.
>The majority of the tags should
>go up
>for auction anually. It MIGHT even
>be
>good to allow second sales of
>auction
>tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
>
>and then re-selling them to the
>public."
>TRISTATE 8/17/2012


YUP!

"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
Pretty biased article IMO. You can tell the writer is half granola when he said "utah taking over federal ground.

"advocating killing wolves,coyotes,cougars, and bears, to save deer and elk"

A lot of sportsmen believe in predator control and no wolves. ME INCLUDED.

That tells you alot about the writer.
 
It tells me that writer knows a lot more about what is going on in Utah than most of the people in SFW will ever admit!
 
>Pretty biased article IMO. You
>can tell the writer is
>half granola when he said
>"utah taking over federal ground.
>
>
>"advocating killing wolves,coyotes,cougars, and bears, to
>save deer and elk"
>
>A lot of sportsmen believe in
>predator control and no wolves.
> ME INCLUDED.
>
>That tells you alot about the
>writer.

Yet, SFW/BGF opposed the Simpson/Tester bill which ultimately achieved state control over the wolf. The "mule deer preservation act" is a joke and could have been done through the WB instead of backdoor circle jerk sessions with Peay / Bensen / and Senator Okerlund and Representative Noel. Everyone who buys a tag pays for that program, you'd have thought the proper channel (despite intentions) would have been through the RACs especially when it likely would have passed and not been controversial at all. Most of us who hunt enjoy being able to hunt coyotes for free all year round. Its rare that I personally will lay eyes on one and don't give it a dirt bath or at least try.

The writer was honest. Its definately bias to the truth of the matter. The facts are solid. But again, that's only my opinion. SFW as a whole does plenty good but that's because members are starting to demand and expect a return on their investment. About time they don't just take Cheshire Cat's word on it.

"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
>Pretty biased article IMO. You
>can tell the writer is
>half granola when he said
>"utah taking over federal ground.
>
>
>"advocating killing wolves,coyotes,cougars, and bears, to
>save deer and elk"
>
>A lot of sportsmen believe in
>predator control and no wolves.
> ME INCLUDED.
>
>That tells you alot about the
>writer.

For the record, I do not support "Utah taking over federal ground". Almost all of my hunting is on federal land, and I've yet to see a No Trespassing sign. Once it is privatized, it can be closed to hunting.

This "communist" view does not make me a granola. In fact, I would argue that the best way to ban hunting in Utah would be to privatize all the federal land. You open it up for a Ted Turner-like person to buy huge chunks and close it off. They don't even have to buy all the land, just enough to landlock large parcels. If land stays federal, it will stay open to hunting. This postition by SFW along with their anti-stream-access fight from a few years ago are just two examples of why I do not support SFW.

Grizzly

PS. Tristate, please be an adult and respect my wishes that you do not respond to any of my posts. I, in turn, will do you the courtesy of not responding to any of yours. I simply do not wish to converse with you.
 
"This "communist" view does not make me a granola."


Are you admitting you are a communist?

I would personaly feel a lot more at ease knowing you were a "granola" than a communist.
 
Grizz, So what you are saying is that SFW wants to make Forest Service ground state owned so that the state can sell it?
 
Birdman, exactly. Do a quick Google search.

Here is one article... http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/53558582-90/attorney-bills-congress-federal.html.csp?page=1

It quotes, "It is also supported by the Utah Association of Counties, Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife, off-road vehicle groups, Utah Farm Bureau and Utah Eagle Forum."

Grizzly

PS. Tristate, please be an adult and respect my wishes that you do not respond to any of my posts. I, in turn, will do you the courtesy of not responding to any of yours. I simply do not wish to converse with you.
 
Birdman, here is an article from somebody who clearly does support Utah taking all public lands and list SFW as a supporter to build their case...

http://arewenotastate.com/documents/HB148_overview.pdf

They do it under the guise of being able to do more mining, drilling, logging, and selling of federal property to raise money for schools. This is not good for hunters, unless you are wealty enough to buy that land once it is available.

Can you imagine your favorite National Forest being closed down by ranchers, timber, and oil companies? This is what SFW actively pursues.

Grizzly

PS. Tristate, please be an adult and respect my wishes that you do not respond to any of my posts. I, in turn, will do you the courtesy of not responding to any of yours. I simply do not wish to converse with you.
 
And why on earth would SFW want to support legislation that would make available prime big game habitat? With their current leadership and involvement of Peay, it certainly isn't for the 400,000 mule deer we were promised OR for the "average Joe hunter".

RMEF is a great example of purchasing land, obtaining conservation easements with PUBLIC ACCESS including hunting ensured, and then managing that land to benefit the wildlife that depends on it.



"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
Thogh Garths article was interesting it is flawed and biased. Garth of course wants more bucks to does because that means bigger bucks and he makes a living off of selling the biggest animal opportunities. Just like a couple groups promote more bucks.

Now here is the flaw with 35 to 50 bucks per 100 does.....

If the total deer population was based on more bucks per 100 does then the Henry mountains and the Paunsaugunt would be over capacity with TOTAL deer numbers. You see all of those places have 35 bucks+ per 100 does yet the deer herds suffer. In fact the Henry's is one of the poorest deer herds in the state yet it has massive bucks because we dont kill them.

The Henry Mountains has had millions dumped into habitat, predator control and AUM's yet the herd as a whole is POOR. Yes there are trophy bucks but all those bucks have done little to NOTHING for the herd size.

Brag all you want about how much money some groups have put on the ground just dont make it sound like it was their money. The VAST majority of the money came from STATE tags and the legislature. Its not like these boys are putting their money on the ground.

So stop with your go start another group. I am not interested and this state does not need another group.

The proof is the deer herds are no better now than they were 20 years ago. Yes there are some more trophy deer but growing trophy deer is easy when you hardly kill any bucks.

You want to make a difference than go do the research I did and see what has happened since the 70's and 80's with the deer herd. There is a very glaring stat that is easy to find about what has changed that none of you want to discuss.

Yes freeways are a bigger problem and yes not using poison makes a difference. But we also have 150,000 less deer hunters, we have shorter seasons, we have made smaller hunt units, we have taken away the opportunity to hunt with all weapons for the most part and we have kicked the crap out of lions and coyotes and restored millions of acres of habitat yet the song remains the same.

There is 2 very alarming things that have changed since our deer boom and if you guys do a little research you will find them. Problem is those that are the torch carriers will never admit that these 2 things have a MAJOR impact on our deer herds and have for 30+ years.

So when you guys study it like I have, when you travel the west like I have and when you meet with all the fish and wildlife departments like I have and you see these 2 glaring things happened in most of their states as well then you can come on here and lecture me.

But don't come on here and say look at what we have done yet the herds are the same and call it a success, it is not...... it is a travesty.



Tony Abbott
 
Griz, The question was, Does SFW want the State to own the ground so that it can be sold. The answer is NO. True they do want the state to be able to control the ground both for the oil and minerals but the stance that SFW has taken is that they support the take over as long as the ground is NOT sold and is KEPT OPEN for public use. That was the stance that was taken when brought before the board.
 
>Griz, The question was, Does SFW
>want the State to own
>the ground so that it
>can be sold.
>The answer is NO.
>True they do want the
>state to be able to
>control the ground both for
>the oil and minerals but
>the stance that SFW has
>taken is that they support
>the take over as long
>as the ground is NOT
>sold and is KEPT OPEN
>for public use. That
>was the stance that was
>taken when brought before the
>board.

Birdman, your question was, "So what you are saying is that SFW wants to make Forest Service ground state owned so that the state can sell it?"

Clearly SFW wants the state to own the land by their support of the bill. Now for the second part of your question. Please read the bill. It clearly says that public land can be sold. It also says...

---------------
"This bill... provides that the 5% of the net proceeds of those sales of public lands shall be deposited into the permanent State School Fund"

---------------

SFW may have the intent that the land isn't sold, but it is NOT forbidden by the statute, in fact the proceeds are already divided by the statute; this shows clear intent or knowledge of selling the land.

The idea of the State selling public land is further enforced by the following Summary printed right off utah.gov.

"In addition to the future expectation of taxable lands, Utah was also promised 5% of the proceeds from the sale of the public lands held by the federal government 'which shall be sold' following statehood."

---------------

In a nutshell, SFW actively supported a bill that promoted/allowed the sale of National Forest to private parties. There is no other way around it.

Grizzly

PS. Tristate, please be an adult and respect my wishes that you do not respond to any of my posts. I, in turn, will do you the courtesy of not responding to any of yours. I simply do not wish to converse with you.
 
Griz, I do not see in that page put up where the land will be sold. Not saying you are not right. I do know that at the board meeting it was discussed and the decision was made not to back the bill unless the land remained open and not sold. I reasoning was that Utah is one of the richest lands in the world and just the money royalties made off of oil and other minerals could run this state with the possibility of doing away with state taxes. That was the results of the board.
 
Birdman, why is a wildlife conservation group weighing in on economic policy and contributions to the tax base of Utah? Is that not outside the realm of their stated mission? And if so, wouldn't it be a misappropriation of the organizations manpower and funds?

____________________________

I hunt. I fish. I VOTE.

Get the F out of SFW
 
Thats reading more into it. Geesh. I believe bird was explaining why the State wanted to do it. SFW is supporting it as long as it stays open and for wildlife. That is what groups kinda do. Give their support or non support. I've heard it called... Having a voice at the table. A real voice, you know instead of just posting thoughts and opinions on the Internet.
 
Birdman, if you get the time, read the actual bill at utah.gov as well as the Summary put out by the Lt. Gov office. It shows clear intent to sell land including the term "shall be sold" as well as instructions for disbursing funds from the sale of public lands.

Mine is not some random conspiracy theory (I've documented via third-party source EVERY SINGLE post I've made). Maybe SFW was naive and ignorant of the details of the bill they signed on to support. Although, that would be surprising because SFW has proven to be very particular about details in all their dealings. Heck, a major partner is a Harvard-trained lawyer, they know how to read these bills and how to interpret them to protect what they feel is important. (My family is full of Ivy League lawyers, I know how impressive it is to be educated there, they are very smart people.)

Combine this land bill with SFW's desire to prevent public waterways from being used as access to public property and you have a group that clearly isn't looking out for public land hunters.

Then throw in the verbiage from Peay in Anchorage Daily News (3/3/12) saying, "it's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."

The following quote appeared in the same ADN article from SFW-AK founding member Corey Rossi, "landowners would get special hunting permits 'the landowner would be allowed to use or sell, perhaps with special authorizations such as the ability to hunt outside normal hunting seasons on their lands.'"

Throughout this whole thread I have shown a clear pattern demonstrating what I believe to be a desire for more private property that is inaccessible to most hunters with animals owned by private individuals all of which is for sale to the highest bidder.

I really don't know how I can make it any more clear.

Grizzly

PS. Tristate, please be an adult and respect my wishes that you do not respond to any of my posts. I, in turn, will do you the courtesy of not responding to any of yours. I simply do not wish to converse with you.
 
"And why on earth would SFW want to support legislation that would make available prime big game habitat? With their current leadership and involvement of Peay, it certainly isn't for the 400,000 mule deer we were promised OR for the "average Joe hunter"."



I am pretty sure there are places now in North Dakota that because of the oil strikes the citizens no longer are paying any property taxes. I can't think of a better way to help anybody, not just "joe average hunter" than to put thousands of his hard earned dollars right back in his pocket for whatever he wants. It almost sounds like more freedom.
 
""This bill... provides that the 5% of the net proceeds of those sales of public lands shall be deposited into the permanent State School Fund""


So hunting access to public land is more important than funding your children and grandchildren's education??????? What if you never had to pay property tax again because of that? You literaly could be hamstringing your state out of BILLIONS of dollars because you deer hunting spot is threatened.


Look I understand change can be scarry. But why punish the future generations because of our inability to change the playing field of our hobby?
 
"The Henry Mountains has had millions dumped into habitat, predator control and AUM's yet the herd as a whole is POOR. Yes there are trophy bucks but all those bucks have done little to NOTHING for the herd size."


Could you please define by what standards that a mule deer herd is "poor".
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-13 AT 06:26AM (MST)[p]>It tells me that writer knows
>a lot more about what
>is going on in Utah
>than most of the people
>in SFW will ever admit!
>

Amen to this!!! Keep enjoying the koolade boys.. You are doing a great job of lining the pockets of some at the cost of many.


It keeps amazing me that people keep thinking that SFW is the solution. In fact time and time again the point has come out that there is things are very very shady within this organization that point to strange things. As THIS article points out the FACT'S that over 20 years SFW has done little to KEEP hunters afield and also produce MORE deer within the state of Utah. Kinda hard to disprove 20 years worth of facts and so called hearsay...


Tallbuck1
 
>Throughout this whole thread I have
>shown a clear pattern demonstrating
>what I believe to be
>a desire for more private
>property that is inaccessible to
>most hunters with animals owned
>by private individuals all of
>which is for sale to
>the highest bidder.
>
>I really don't know how I
>can make it any more
>clear.
>
>Grizzly

+1





Tallbuck1
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-13 AT 09:16AM (MST)[p]Grizz, "Matlock wanabee",

You are funny. You try to show up in the last couple minutes of the game and think you have the game figured out and can be the coach also.

SFW has a long history of protecting sportsmen access to National monuments for hunting, School trust land open for hunting, Easements, and all the properties SFW have secured for winter range is open for the public. There is a board of dirrectors of more than 20 sportsmen reprenting their members from all over the state. They conduct the business and have goals to recruit hunters, provide public access to public ground, improve habitat and wildlife populations, etc. etc.

SFW gets results. Thats why banquets are sucessful and soldout as usual.

You can try to paint doom and gloom. You are a smart young kid, I think you would do better at selling homes than detective work.

Best of luck.

Fishon,

You complain that SFW hasn't fixed the deer herd on one hand, Well you worked for SFW and MDF and I don't think the deer herd improved when you were working for sportsmen. Then you say Utah doesn't need another wildlife group and your not interested in starting one. See if you started one you would have to get results or you wouldn't survive. SFW has survived, because even though I don't agree with everything they have done. They get results for sportsmen and wildlife. Informed People see the results and support them.

Good luck in your guiding and hunting.
 
>Grizz, "Matlock wanabee",
>
>You are funny. You try
>to show up in the
>last couple minutes of the
>game and think you have
>the game figured out and
>can be the coach also.
>
>
>SFW has a long history of
>protecting sportsmen access to National
>monuments for hunting, School trust
>land open for hunting, Easements,
>and all the properties SFW
>have secured for winter range
>is open for the public.
>There is a board of
>dirrectors of more than 20
>sportsmen reprenting their members from
>all over the state.
>They conduct the business and
>have goals to recruit hunters,
>provide public access to public
>ground, improve habitat and wildlife
>populations, etc. etc.
>
>SFW gets results. Thats why
>banquets are sucessful and soldout
>as usual.
>
>You can try to paint doom
>and gloom. You would
>be better to go try
>to sell a home or
>two.
>
>Best of luck.
>
>Greg


*** Yea Grizzly, you have a lot of nerve stirring the pot when Utah is in such great shape now under the leadership of DP and Company, LOL! They take credit for so many things it's unreal!
 
Huntin50,

Grizzly knows this is a silly witchhunt feeding the hate of a bunch of people who refuse to say what their true agenda is. Now he states all he has been doing is trying to protect public lands, but when all this thread started he was simply supporting anyone with anything negative to say about SFW including siding with an anti-hunter.
 
"*** Yea Grizzly, you have a lot of nerve stirring the pot when Utah is in such great shape now under the leadership of DP and Company, LOL! They take credit for so many things it's unreal!"


How is Utah under his "leadership". He influences certian things but Utah is under the leadership of government. I think its funny how a guy that influences sale decisions over less than %2 of all the big game tags in a state and according to you misappropriates $900k in money is the leader and cause of your wildlife issues. While the state government spends tens of millions of dollars and controls the other %98 of big game tags and escapes any guilt in this fiasco.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-13 AT 09:44AM (MST)[p]Tristate,

I had made a vow on to point out how stupid your posts are but your comment on North Dakota and property taxes is plain idiotic.

Living close to the oil patch and working in Williston a couple of times a month I have clients whose property taxes have actually increased. In fact there was an measure put to a vote to end property taxes and it was defeated with 76% of voters voting no on the measure.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/06/13/pf/north-dakota-property-tax/index.htm

Wyoming has a lot of public lands and still funds it's education better than almost any surrounding state and they don't need to sell off public lands to get that funding.

SFW is not a friend to people who want to pass on the tradition of hunting to the next generation. They back bad legislation, if we had followed SFW and their trying to blow up the Simpson/Tester Amendment we still wouldn't be hunting wolves in Montana or in Idaho.

Wordsmith away, misquote what I said and make your inane points about things you are clueless about.

Nemont
 
Greg lets be frank here SFW has survived in part because they've been givin a hell of a lot of public tags to be sold. If you want to impress us take those away. JMO
 
"Living close to the oil patch and working in Williston a couple of times a month I have clients whose property taxes have actually increased. In fact there was an measure put to a vote to end property taxes and it was defeated with 76% of voters voting no on the measure."


I am sorry. Thanks for pointing out my mistake. I was not aware there were people stupid enough to vote themselves to be taxed when the government is overstuffed with money. Thankfully you showed me the light.
 
huntin50 (Greg),

You can attack me personally with your snide remarks all you want. The fact is ALL OF MY POSTS ARE TRUE and I have made my posts without attacking people or calling names. My posts are based on fact and I have provided third-party sources for everything I have said. I have made no claims of my own, simply compiled information that others may not be aware of or able to find.

Why don't you or the other SFW-cronies ever work on pointing out inaccuracies in the SLTrib articles, the Utah Legislature website, the Arctic Red River link, the political contributions relating to the $300,000 grant, etc?

If you have any other information showing the links I have posted are not true, then post it up. It's all public information, right? Post up the amendment to the "Land Grab Bill" showing SFW got it changed to prevent the sale of public property. Show me the page that says Don Peay doesn't own Arctic Red River. Show me where SFW didn't work to close down stream access in Utah. Show me that Peay and Benson didn't donate cash to the Senator that wrote them a grant for $300,000, one of which was paid the day after the grant was awarded.

These aren't MY facts. This information was made available by other people and is easy to find with a simple Google search. If the information is factually wrong, post it up for all to see.

Here is why you don't dispute the facts and only attack the naysayers. The forums in Utah and around the hunting community are perking up. People are angry. There is a fervor building and you can feel it.

You may make diminishing remarks about online hunting communities and those that "sit behind a computer", but you still feel the need to defend SFW on those same sites. If they have no value, then why waste your time? I'll tell you; because they work and you know it. It's a grassroots movement. The wave of the future.

I have not attacked anybody regarding SFW. I have made no claims of my own, only posted links by other people and explained why those links have caused me to believe what I believe. If those links are false, post it up. Change my mind. So far, there has been no evidence that the links I have posted are false. NONE. As soon as you post up some third-party information, like I have, that shows the links I have posted are incorrect I will come on immediately and admit the link I found was wrong. No more conjecture, just post the link.

PS. Selling houses is great. The market is really picking up. Thanks for asking.

Grizzly

PS. Tristate, please be an adult and respect my wishes that you do not respond to any of my posts. I, in turn, will do you the courtesy of not responding to any of yours. I simply do not wish to converse with you.
 
Grizz,
No personal attacks needed or intended. You are the one that searches for any info on the web and post it as fact. You are the one acting like Matlock. If thats personal or offensive sorry.

When you attack SFW you attack a lot of sportsmen who have and do volunteer hundreds of hours to make things better. Sportsmen that know the issues, not just surf the web and draw conclusions.

I was in the meeting when the Owner of Artic Red, thanked Don and donated in part millions to Don, because he liked what SFW and the Wild Sheep foundation was doing for ave hunters.

I have been to a lot of meetings as others have, and know and have seen what is going on. I like Founder was on the SFW board for a few years. I may not agree with everything about SFW, but they have done a lot of good things and will continue.

You have some pretty funny views.

"The hunting community is perking up. People are angry. There is a fevor building and you can feel it."

Here are some facts. Banquets are being sold out in most places in the state. More demand than supply. The Ogden banquet had about 40 corporate tables alone. Netted without tags over 50K.

Logan banquet had 500 people. If we had a larger facility we could easily have 800 people at our banquets. This is the same problem other towns have.

Yes there are some angry people, yourself and the minority of others.

Let me know how much you want to bet that we have soldout banquets in 5 years. Put your money where your mouth is.

Start up a group that does half of what SFW does for wildlife and hunters and I'll support you is an option.

You can continue to sit and complain on a computer if you want.

Greg
 
I keep hearing people claiming that this Peay guy is part of Arctic Red River as if this is the info that will nail his coffin shut. Could someone please inform me with what the evil behind being affiliated with Arctic Red River is?
 
I am confused, so if a few of the SFW people please clear the air for me...

I am only trying to get straight answers to what you are truly thinking. I am not trying to start any fights, only the truth and where your mind is at...

The continued comment of "I don't support ALL that SFW Does" but yet I am a SFW lover and I will support them 100%".

If you have internal questions about where money has gone, or why is the deer herd not up to 800K, or why can I not hunt with my family more, or why are there not sheep on every mountain in the west desert, or why SFW took so long to open their books, or where is all the "Administrative" money going, ect...ect...?

If you have those question or any others, then WHY do you continue to support SFW?


Tallbuck1
 
>huntin50 (Greg),
>
>You can attack me personally with
>your snide remarks all you
>want. The fact is
>ALL OF MY POSTS ARE
>TRUE and I have made
>my posts without attacking people
>or calling names. My
>posts are based on fact
>and I have provided third-party
>sources for everything I have
>said. I have made
>no claims of my own,
>simply compiled information that others
>may not be aware of
>or able to find.
>
>Why don't you or the other
>SFW-cronies ever work on pointing
>out inaccuracies in the SLTrib
>articles, the Utah Legislature website,
>the Arctic Red River link,
>the political contributions relating to
>the $300,000 grant, etc?
>
>If you have any other information
>showing the links I have
>posted are not true, then
>post it up. It's
>all public information, right?
>Post up the amendment to
>the "Land Grab Bill" showing
>SFW got it changed to
>prevent the sale of public
>property. Show me the
>page that says Don Peay
>doesn't own Arctic Red River.
> Show me where SFW
>didn't work to close down
>stream access in Utah.
>Show me that Peay and
>Benson didn't donate cash to
>the Senator that wrote them
>a grant for $300,000, one
>of which was paid the
>day after the grant was
>awarded.
>
>These aren't MY facts. This
>information was made available by
>other people and is easy
>to find with a simple
>Google search. If the
>information is factually wrong, post
>it up for all to
>see.
>
>Here is why you don't dispute
>the facts and only attack
>the naysayers. The forums
>in Utah and around the
>hunting community are perking up.
> People are angry.
>There is a fervor building
>and you can feel it.
>
>
>You may make diminishing remarks about
>online hunting communities and those
>that "sit behind a computer",
>but you still feel the
>need to defend SFW on
>those same sites. If
>they have no value, then
>why waste your time?
>I'll tell you; because they
>work and you know it.
> It's a grassroots movement.
> The wave of the
>future.
>
>I have not attacked anybody regarding
>SFW. I have made
>no claims of my own,
>only posted links by other
>people and explained why those
>links have caused me to
>believe what I believe.
>If those links are false,
>post it up. Change
>my mind. So far,
>there has been no evidence
>that the links I have
>posted are false. NONE.
>As soon as you post
>up some third-party information, like
>I have, that shows the
>links I have posted are
>incorrect I will come on
>immediately and admit the link
>I found was wrong.
>No more conjecture, just post
>the link.
>
>PS. Selling houses is great. The
>market is really picking up.
> Thanks for asking.
>
>Grizzly
>
>PS. Tristate, please be an adult
>and respect my wishes that
>you do not respond to
>any of my posts. I,
>in turn, will do you
>the courtesy of not responding
>to any of yours. I
>simply do not wish to
>converse with you.

+100!!!! Great response!!!!


"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
Greg to say that the people going to the banquets are informed is hilarious! I know first hand there is alot of blind support. I think it's great people are willing to part with their hard earned money in an effort to help wildlife I really do. What I really don't like is the false advertising, flat out lying, and miss leading of honest hard working people who give you their money and trust that it will used efficiently in helping aid in wildlife recovery or what it may be.For me it's an issue of trust and SFW lost my trust years ago and it will take alot to get me back on board.Secondly there is a point to where alittle good just doesn't out way the whole bunch of shady, dishonest crap that just keeps piling up against the SFW name.I'll ask you a question. Let's say every night I come home from work I beat the hell out of my wife but every year for her birthday I take her to Hawaii for her birthday. Am I still a jack ass or am I a stand up guy because I took her on a trip for her birthday and did alittle bit of good?
If we only had a stand up honest group to take the reins around this state and be able to get things done with out people wondering what percentage of their money will actually go towards the cause and not in someones pocketbook.I for one would start donating again and I would bet there are many others who would get involved again only if we knew not hoped or trusted that our time and effort was going fully to the cause.
 
tall,
Do you really mean to tell me that you have to agree with something or someone 100% of the time to be committed to that thing or person?

It would sure be nice if the world was that black or white wouldn't it.
 
Grizz,

A little more info for you. Marc Bingham was a small town Utah kid from Vernal, who got a degree in Wildlife Management from USU. He started a phone dirrectory company, worked his tail off and sold his business in 2006 for millions. He owned Artic Red River.
He donated 4.125 million during that meeting. The Mower family, also successful business have also donated millions as well.

Some very smart business owners who love to hunt have donated millions to help hunters, some who served our country,they help wildlife, and fund projects to make things better for everyone, and to help preserve our hunting traditions.
A lot of thanks should go to people like this, who love to hunt just like you and I. Dragging them through the mudd is not the way to thank them. Just a little more info, that you were missing.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-13 AT 02:05PM (MST)[p]>tall,
>Do you really mean to tell
>me that you have to
>agree with something or someone
>100% of the time to
>be committed to that
>thing or person?
>
>It would sure be nice if
>the world was that black
>or white wouldn't it.


Why would I need to lie or want to be lied too? I don't believe in shady dealings or shady friends...

And certainly when I am giving of my hard earned money and time to things I love, I most certainly don't want to be lied to or duped by unknown things.



Tallbuck1
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-13 AT 02:16PM (MST)[p]>tall,
>Actions speak louder than words and
>I leave it at that.
>




Its sad to me that we ask legitimate question's wanting to know answers but yet all that comes back is personal attacks and negative banter towards the person who asks questions on this forum.

Why can't my questions get answered? Is it because it is easier to just attack people then to come up with the real answers to the questions?



Tallbuck1
 
cache,
Here is that difference. Over and over again you claim lies and wrong doing. All the former supporter/current haters claim to know things. Yet nothing ever comes of it. You push for them to open the books, they do, its not good enough. You never PROVE anything. Just rumors from a handful of haters. You really think smart guys like Hawkeye and Tony wouldnt topple the evil empire if they could PROVE anything. You bet they would. It's an agenda generally driven by personal feelings and a few others jump onto the hate wagon.

The group is growing and continuing to do good things. I hope they continue to do so. The winds of change are in the air, Id say from the look of actual numbers and support and not internet bantering the winds are headed in the right direction as far as I'm concerned.
 
Tallbuck, Cache,Grizz,Fishon, and other SFW haters, start up your own group. THe above people can be your board members. Let's see some results and I'll support you. I will sell tickets and get donations. I support most groups that I believe help hunting and wildlife, that is as simple as I can make it.

Complaining about other groups is not helping anyones cause. It hasn't made any difference the past 5 years, (SFW has record crowds)and it wont during the next 5 years.

Smile when you think about it.
 
>Tallbuck, Cache,Grizz,Fishon, and other SFW haters,
>start up your own group.
> THe above people can
>be your board members. Let's
>see some results and I'll
>support you. I will sell
>tickets and get donations. I
>support most groups that I
>believe help hunting and wildlife,
>that is as simple as
>I can make it.
>
>Complaining about other groups is not
>helping anyones cause. It
>hasn't made any difference the
>past 5 years, (SFW has
>record crowds)and it wont during
>the next 5 years.
>
>Smile when you think about it.
>

Utah Doesn't need ANY MORE conservation groups, what is needed is openness and honesty from the current ones!

I used to be apart of SFW, and I wouldn't have been with then for 8+ years, I was hoping and praying that they would make good on their promises.
As far as the record banquets attendance, most people came being blind. They came to banquets at a chance at a gun or a safe full of guns, or sat a corp table for a 1 in 5 chance at a gun. or a chance at a dream hunt. When the SFW video was shown at the start, most people had no clue what had been done (if any video was shown at all).

People like to watch a good show, and the auctions made for a great show and put a lot of smiles on peoples faces. But I know darn well that people don't just attend the banquet year after year because of ALL the good SFW has done for the past twenty years.




Tallbuck1
 
>tall,
>I thought we were talking about
>rumors and gossip???
>
>
>
>What in the helll is relief
>society???


I asked real questions... and wanted REAL answers.




Tallbuck1
 
>Tallbuck, Cache,Grizz,Fishon, and other SFW haters,
>start up your own group.
> THe above people can
>be your board members. Let's
>see some results and I'll
>support you. I will sell
>tickets and get donations. I
>support most groups that I
>believe help hunting and wildlife,
>that is as simple as
>I can make it.
>
>Complaining about other groups is not
>helping anyones cause. It
>hasn't made any difference the
>past 5 years, (SFW has
>record crowds)and it wont during
>the next 5 years.
>
>Smile when you think about it.
>

SFW has record crowds at their banquets because that is quickly becoming one of the only places to win the occasional LE or OIL tag. I've been to banquets and SFW plays their diatribe tribute to the Dear Leader Don and there's a presentation on how much good they do (and those who go to them or donate are good intended people, just like the original owners of Arctic Red River who were told one side of the story...Don's). Corporate sponsors who buy tables and sometimes multiple tables, yeah, my uncle does that and supports all of the banquets from all of the groups but SFW gives him a gun and he sees it as an opportunity to reward employees with dinner and some cool auction items.

I agree with removing conservation tags from the banquets and THEN impressing the masses. $50k and sold out banquets won't be a norm for long.

On the financials issues.....the majority of people in this state want SFW to open the books and account for the money generated from the tags. If they kept crappy books in the past, say so. If they've misappropriated conservation and convention tag money, say so and make it right with the millions being donated to them and move forward. I would suggest that we don't need new groups. I am a member of UWC (currently regional vice chair for Southern Region), a member of RMEF, SCI, and others but not SFW. Simply because its time their member oust the shady leadership and open their books for all to see concerning the publicly owned tags! Every time tall or anyone asks for transparency, current SFW leadership flashed the pages of "See Pug Run" and says "That should be good enough, we've opened the books and there's nothing to see."



"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
huntin50,

You and I just disagree on the best pathway for Utah to have a bright hunting future. It is as simple as that. Neither of us are going to convince the other.

Lets just shake hands and agree to disagree. I still consider you a friend and hopefully we can share another elk camp in the future.

Have a good one.

Grizzly

PS. Tristate, please be an adult and respect my wishes that you do not respond to any of my posts. I, in turn, will do you the courtesy of not responding to any of yours. I simply do not wish to converse with you.
 
Tallbuck1: I will try to answer your questions. I do not agree with all that SFW does but I do support them. I disagree with some of things they support. I do agree with the majority that they are doing. Yes the deer herd is down, way down. Do I blame SFW, NO. They have tried and failed, but they tried. The translocation of the deer has been going well except for some idiot that is shooting them. I realize that I can not hunt with all my family as in the past. That is because the deer have dropped in numbers for what ever reason. They have all over the west. If we were allowed to hunt as in the past, we would not have any deer left now. The hunters had to be lowered. Why do we not have sheep on every mountain in the west desert? Do you know what it takes to put animals on a mountain. First you have to have permission from the Forest Service or BLM. They can not just put them there. Second the sheep can not be mixed with domestic sheep. If they do the get sick and die. The west desert is a place were lots of domestic sheep are wintered. I do not have a problem with why it took so long for SFW to open their books. The money is all accounted for. Maybe not like you would like it but there is no hanky panky going on with the money. No one is getting rich off of SFW. If there was money going into pockets of the leaders of SFW that was not accounted for making them rich why would the VP take another job to make a more secure future for his family. I continue to support SFW because I like the majority of what they are doing. I am satisfied that they are above board and have seen nothing to make me think different.
 
What LE or OIL tag can you "win" at a banquet??? I believe the only tag that you can win is the Heaton Tag that is donated??? Am I wrong about that???

And I believe that RMEF also auctions off conservation tags at their banquets?
 
>Tallbuck1: I will try
>to answer your questions.
>I do not agree with
>all that SFW does but
>I do support them.
>I disagree with some of
>things they support. I
>do agree with the majority
>that they are doing.
>Yes the deer herd is
>down, way down. Do
>I blame SFW, NO.
>They have tried and failed,
>but they tried. The
>translocation of the deer has
>been going well except for
>some idiot that is shooting
>them. I realize that
>I can not hunt with
>all my family as in
>the past. That is
>because the deer have dropped
>in numbers for what ever
>reason. They have all
>over the west. If
>we were allowed to hunt
>as in the past, we
>would not have any deer
>left now. The hunters
>had to be lowered.
>Why do we not have
>sheep on every mountain in
>the west desert? Do you
>know what it takes to
>put animals on a mountain.
> First you have to
>have permission from the Forest
>Service or BLM. They
>can not just put them
>there. Second the sheep
>can not be mixed with
>domestic sheep. If they
>do the get sick and
>die. The west desert is
>a place were lots of
>domestic sheep are wintered.
>I do not have a
>problem with why it took
>so long for SFW to
>open their books. The
>money is all accounted for.
> Maybe not like you
>would like it but there
>is no hanky panky going
>on with the money.
>No one is getting rich
>off of SFW. If
>there was money going into
>pockets of the leaders of
>SFW that was not accounted
>for making them rich why
>would the VP take another
>job to make a more
>secure future for his family.
> I continue to support
>SFW because I like the
>majority of what they are
>doing. I am satisfied
>that they are above board
>and have seen nothing to
>make me think different.


Birdman,

Thank you for answering me and sharing your insight. The questions I asked were merely examples of the types of questions from others that have been asked abut yet there were NO answer provided, so again, thank you for answering them.

When will some of the other pending questions that have been asked on this forum be answered?



Tallbuck1
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-13 AT 03:15PM (MST)[p]>What LE or OIL tag can
>you "win" at a banquet???
> I believe the only
>tag that you can win
>is the Heaton Tag that
>is donated??? Am I
>wrong about that???
>
>And I believe that RMEF also
>auctions off conservation tags at
>their banquets?
>
>

The Davis Banquet gave away an LE elk tag for their grand prize in the early 2000's... So I know it Used to happen, dont know if it does now with the $$$$ that they are sold for nowadays.



Tallbuck1
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-13 AT 03:41PM (MST)[p]I have been watching this garbage for months now. When I first starting watching it some group called the UWC was going to take on the SFW. They were demanding that "the books", which nobody ever defined them, had to be opened for transparency. All that sounded good and I agreed. Then I found out that wasn't all the UWC wanted they also wanted control of certian monies. I started making predictions about how their battle with the wildlife board was going to go and consequently was labelled a troll just for telling the truth. By the way I was right on that one.

So the haters won a little and lost a little but the bus moved on. By the way after all the talk about the UWc being the next big thing I haven't heard a peep about them for months. Next it became a fight to demonize this Don Peay guy. Apparently without using any open books as the haters claim they have been able to find out everytime someone hands any money in or out of SFW and the financials of anything to Don Peay. They have called him a liar. I have heard alligations of money laundering. I have heard alligations of missappropriated funds. But the IRS doesn't touch him. Now for some reason Don Peay is a bad guy for taking a donation from some company called Arctic Red River. When did that become bad? Then they demonize him for making donations to politicians. Again, when did this become bad? The haters have gotten so desperate they are actually siding with an antihunter and posting his letters on this website to bolster support?????? Now I look at this and the haters are back screaming for more transparency. Transparency for what????????? Yall claim to know all this money going back and forth that no one can show is illegal. Have anyone called the IRS with your "proof"? Any of you???? I don't believe any of you are being honest for why you dislike SFW or Don Peay, and until you start being honest your so called grass roots movement will die right at the ground level.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-13 AT 04:36PM (MST)[p]Muley_73: "Over and over again you claim lies and wrong doing. All the former supporter/current haters claim to know things. Yet nothing ever comes of it. You push for them to open the books, they do, its not good enough."

***I guess I misssed the big day that the books were opened for scrutiny. What day was that and who got a look at them? And Birdman, I'm not talking about the SFW tax returns!
 
"I guess I misssed the big day that the books were opened for scrutiny. What day was that? And Birdman, I'm not talking about the SFW tax returns!"


Topgun,

What are "the Books". Yall keep talking about "The Books". Is this a quarterly profit/Loss Statement? Is this check stubs? Is this a monthly bank statement you require? Yall keep calling it "The Books" but you don't define what that is. To people who actually handle "The Books", that can mean a hellavu lot of different things.

I look behind my desk and my computer and realize there are about 20 different things you can call "The books". And believe me some of it would violate ethics and I might even have to do a legal search with an attorney before I could just open some of "The Books". It would not surprise me if there are some legal and civil ramifications if I just opened some of these "books" for anybody.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-13 AT 04:40PM (MST)[p]Do you get taxpayer money or are you a private business who has an interest in keeping your affairs private. Pretty big difference between the two.

Issuing an audited financial statement that is done by an outside auditor, with his/her signature, like the RMEF and DU both do.

That would go a long way to make things kosher. All the good done by SFW is done away by their lack of accountability and transparency. As an organization that largely is by publicly owned tags and direct payments from taxpayers you would think they would want to be upfront about where, how, when and to whom the money was expended.

Nemont
 
My actions were louder than words. when I brought the issues to the SFW board I said he needed to go or I would.... they chose him which I am fine with.

Remember this though my friends, when I started with them they were nearly out of business, no money, no excitement, about 8 banquets and your savior of wildlife paid me out of his pocket for the 1st 6 months.

When I left 4+ years later there were 20+ banquets, multiple states on board, membership had gone from a couple thousand to almost 5,000, there was excitement, momentum, and more good then bad. Now I by no means did this alone but what I did bring your group was a person that actually related to the everyday sportsman. Someone that was honest, upfront and did not believe trophy hunting was all that was important.This is what you guys have lost and it is very apparent you have no feel for reality.

But the reason they chose him over me was because I brought shady activities to their attention and said it needed to change, then they wanted to pay me to be quiet about it. Well you know I turned the money down and would do it again for 10 times as much.

This is a fact and one that none of you are privy to.
That is all that needs to be said. If all the things I said are not true I would of been in a lot of trouble years ago.

You see just because something happened does not mean it can be proved especially when so many want to cover up the truth and pretend it never happened, or say they dont recall. These are typical politician answers(I am not just referring to a group I am also referring to fish and game past employee's that did not want to dwell in the past).

Greg I have not spoke to you directly but I am now. You know you can go to Bret and he will tell you that what I said is 100% true and that is the biggest reason Bret left your group. He saw the corruption and the bad things that were happening and he wanted no part of it. That is why he still does not go to your events and support them like he use to.

The only significant things your group has done to benefit Utahs wildlife outside of Prop 5 have all been funded by State tags they were given... In other words government handouts.

Take the government handouts away and your group does not exist. Mdf did not exist until I got them a whole bunch of government handouts. Now they are a player.

Whether you want to admit it or not the expo never happens if I dont go to MDF and join up with FNAWS and have a national convention in Reno. Your group feeling left out and scared of what might happen called me and Ray and wanted a big national convention. Your group COULD NOT do it by themselves and they NEEDED FNAWS and MDF. These are facts. Now your group was the lead on the idea for the expo tags but they could not even qualify for them without the other groups.

And we all know Greg that the expo tag money is not being used for what it was promised to be used for by not just me but also the other 2 groups.

Greg please stop with your babbling. You believe and you donate and you spread their word and for you I am happy. Many don't believe and many have good reasons not to believe and I have the best reasons. It is not vindictive like you and so many others want to make it. I still today get emails and MM messages from PAST supporters of your group that apologize for how they treated me on this site over the years because now they saw what I was saying really happened and happens. I only wish all those that sent me those messages would put them out here for all to see. SOme have and to them I say thanks.

Your membership is not as big in Utah as you guys say,the membership was about 5,000 when I left yet you guys said there was 15,000. that was a flat out lie. That is always how you guys operated and I have no reason to believe it has changed.

Your group is about 5% to maybe 10% (which would be stretching it) of the Utah mule deer hunters and even far less of a percentage of the overall sportsman and fisherman in the state. You do not represent the masses you only represent the elite handful. And FYI those huge donations you got were not just given because you and your group were so great, they were also given for tax purposes and they received hunts and other things for their donation.

Stop spinning it into something it is not.

Your events are attended because people want to believe it is going to a good cause and because people want to win stuff. Your events would disappear if you did not have the government handouts to promote all the projects you have done.

Just enjoy your efforts to what you believe in but dont try to sell it to those of us that know the truth by 1st hand experience.

And Greg last thing is this, if I started a group I would do it without government handouts and it would be successful. The reason it would be is because the group would be open, trustworthy, effective and not try to trample out someone else s ideas and discredit them at every turn.

I have NEVER taken a personal shot at you yet you take your jabs at me frequently. Many members of your group have had wildlife violations. I could name them but there is no reason to because those that want to find out can.

I still consider you a friend and would buy you lunch anytime anywhere. Bret, Greg, John myself and many many others do not support for a reason. I am not the only guy that left your group because I was unhappy how things were going.

Now I hope that has all changed over the years (that is an honest statement) whether is has or has not I do not know and really dont care. What I do care about is the future for my kids and their ability to hunt on a regular basis without having to be rich.

Your group has done little to nothing to increase that, all your group has done is taken away opportunity after opportunity and then try to smooth it over with a few trophy areas, spike elk hunting and the dumbest animal on the planet TURKEYS.

Go ahead and repost with your same old stuff that sounds like BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH. I will not relpy and you can have the last word that you need to have to validate your beliefs.We know you believe and I am fine with that, but it is also ok for others to not believe,

I am going to New Zealand to hunt and guide and then to Alaska and I am not doing it on government handouts. I am doing it on my dime that I earned from my hard word and honest business actions.

I wish YOU all the success in the world. And would love to hunt /catch up with you. I could even do it and not talk one bit about your group. the question is COULD YOU?

Cheers

Tony Abbott
 
Tony
Do you have any first hand knowledge of how SFW accuired some of these private pieces of ground around the state? The weeks property at the mouth of Smithfield dry canyon is the piece that stirs my question.I have had numerous heads of SFW use these pieces of land as crown jewels when I have questioned them about other things.the last time the guy told me "hate us all you want but you better be thankful we have purchased this piece of ground"
I want to know if these lands were obtained using conservation money(state welfare money) or if these lands were bought with money they have raised or earned on there own?also who's name would these pieces of land to deeded to if in fact they were obtained using the states money?
 
>Do you get taxpayer money or
>are you a private business
>who has an interest in
>keeping your affairs private.
>Pretty big difference between the
>two.

Nope. Your dodging the question. What are "the books"

>
>Issuing an audited financial statement that
>is done by an outside
>auditor, with his/her signature, like
>the RMEF and DU both
>do.

Really? You think that gives credibility? People on thi thread already admitted RMEF pays 16k for this "audit". Do you really think that is independent? There are thousands of CPA firms that will gladly report any numbers you want as long as you keep giving them 16000 reasons to do it.

>
>That would go a long way
>to make things kosher.
>All the good done by
>SFW is done away by
>their lack of accountability and
>transparency. As an organization
>that largely is by publicly
>owned tags and direct payments
>from taxpayers you would think
>they would want to be
>upfront about where, how, when
>and to whom the money
>was expended.
>
>Nemont

So you want to know who they give any money to???? It's your belief you should know how much they pay each employee. I bet you and the rest of these hitmen will respect their privacy like mr. peay. Right????? I am sure no one will get their names spilled with all kinds of accusations and whatever other drivel that reporters and Internet hacks can dream up. Or have you already forgot the letter that started this thread?

Just because a public resource is involved does not entitle you to whatever info you desire in whatever "books" you can't even define.
 
>>Tallbuck1: I will try
>>to answer your questions.
>>I do not agree with
>>all that SFW does but
>>I do support them.
>>I disagree with some of
>>things they support. I
>>do agree with the majority
>>that they are doing.
>>Yes the deer herd is
>>down, way down. Do
>>I blame SFW, NO.
>>They have tried and failed,
>>but they tried. The
>>translocation of the deer has
>>been going well except for
>>some idiot that is shooting
>>them. I realize that
>>I can not hunt with
>>all my family as in
>>the past. That is
>>because the deer have dropped
>>in numbers for what ever
>>reason. They have all
>>over the west. If
>>we were allowed to hunt
>>as in the past, we
>>would not have any deer
>>left now. The hunters
>>had to be lowered.
>>Why do we not have
>>sheep on every mountain in
>>the west desert? Do you
>>know what it takes to
>>put animals on a mountain.
>> First you have to
>>have permission from the Forest
>>Service or BLM. They
>>can not just put them
>>there. Second the sheep
>>can not be mixed with
>>domestic sheep. If they
>>do the get sick and
>>die. The west desert is
>>a place were lots of
>>domestic sheep are wintered.
>>I do not have a
>>problem with why it took
>>so long for SFW to
>>open their books. The
>>money is all accounted for.
>> Maybe not like you
>>would like it but there
>>is no hanky panky going
>>on with the money.
>>No one is getting rich
>>off of SFW. If
>>there was money going into
>>pockets of the leaders of
>>SFW that was not accounted
>>for making them rich why
>>would the VP take another
>>job to make a more
>>secure future for his family.
>> I continue to support
>>SFW because I like the
>>majority of what they are
>>doing. I am satisfied
>>that they are above board
>>and have seen nothing to
>>make me think different.
>
>
>Birdman,
>
>Thank you for answering me and
>sharing your insight. The
>questions I asked were merely
>examples of the types of
>questions from others that have
>been asked abut yet there
>were NO answer provided, so
>again, thank you for answering
>them.
>
>When will some of the other
>pending questions that have been
>asked on this forum be
>answered?
>
>
>
>Tallbuck1

+1 THOSE are real answers and are appreciated! Kudos from me as well.


"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-13 AT 07:02PM (MST)[p]>What LE or OIL tag can
>you "win" at a banquet???
> I believe the only
>tag that you can win
>is the Heaton Tag that
>is donated??? Am I
>wrong about that???
>
>And I believe that RMEF also
>auctions off conservation tags at
>their banquets?
>
>


Are not auctions a big part of the attraction and event themselves? Some of those tags are real nice, I would have loved one of the muzzy tags at the local SFW banquet. You answered your own question with the statement about RMEF banquets. Interesting the double standard. Regardless, here is the link to SFW's own banquet tag schedule:
http://www.sfw.net/permits.asp

RMEF, by the way, rarely keeps more than 3 percent and provides completely transparent accounting of every dime for their members and public to view. I'm not trying to add to the argument against SFW. I believe the org and its mission and members are good. I just don't like how the leadership pretends they are in line with the mission of the SFW and its members when their actions clearly say otherwise.


"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
>After before I decided I would
>never do this, but tristate,
>you have to be one
>of the worst people on
>MM to try to stir
>up controversy. There is
>no question that you really
>only try to stir up
>things and not putting anything
>useful out. Tis being
>said, I will not comment
>anymore on Tristate and if
>all ignore him maybe things
>will become a little more
>clear.


+100000000000000000 I don't even read his posts anymore. Not worth it. Thanks again for some of your answers and its clear to me that you are not a part of the problem I have with SFW.




"There is no reason why I have to tolerate your stupidity if you are unwilling to tolerate mine." ME
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-13 AT 09:17PM (MST)[p]

Tristate,

I thought you were just a pot stirrer, but now I am convinced you are the most dangerous type of person, somebody who thinks they are smarter than everyone else. Here is the RMEF financial statement. You don't have to have a per employee line to show what Don Peay gets in salaries.

http://www.rmef.org/Portals/0/Documents/FINAL_2012 Financials.pdf

$16,000 for an organization that supposedly gets and gives millions is a can of tuna fish in $100 bag of groceries. If you are suggesting a CPA will sign his/her name to an audit and not have it reflect the actual state of finances then you have not seen the BS CPA's go through and the Fiduciary responsibility they have when they sign an financial statement.

I sit on the board of our local Nursing home with an annual budget of a little less thatn $2 million and we have an audited financial statement because we accept medicaid and medicare money. We pay $12,000 a year for an independent auditor to publish a qualified opinion. A not for profit organization should be required to have an audited financial statement available for review.

http://www.ducks.org/media/About DU/Annual Report/_documents/2009/Financials.pdf

Here is DU's which make SFW look like an ant at the feet of an elephant, yet DU doesn't just take my money and taxpayer money and say, "Trust us", They have the balls to show the world where the money goes, how efficient they operate etc.

So these are the books that SFW should publish as a not for profit organization that takes taxpayer funds, sells publicly provide tags and obviously lobbies lawmakers. The books is fairly generic term of what all the audits contain which is basically a financial review of the organization's activities in it's various accounts.

SFW doesn't do this because either they think $16,000 is too much to pay, even though they have already gotten $600,000 in Utah taxpayer money to fight the wolf fight. Even though SFW and BGF tried to destroy the Simpson/Tester Amendment.

So the term the books is common throughout the industry is what appears in those audited financial statements. It isn't breaking down salaries down to got paid what.

Nemont
 
I just Wasted another 5 Minutes of Life reading the same old BS!




The Dew I had for Breakfast wasn't Bad so I had one more for Dessert!:D
 

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