DWR Board Members

Stillhunterman:
It was a simple question...stop being arrogant and calling it an "educated" debate....Socrates loved to debate by questions...especially simple ones....so....my educated friend....

In units where hunting was shut down for a few years did the population go up or down? Simple question....dont get excited .....just up or down would be nice....we can discuss your level of education later....I just want facts for now. Thanks.
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rperkins
I would have to agree on counts.....I would love to see how they come up with the numbers. This is something I am not familiar with
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Wiley:
1. It doesnt matter.....come on....up or down....are the herds at the population objective?.....Okay then...up or down?

2. This is not a major problem......I didnt see it listed ....stay on task here.
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hossblur:
1. You are righht, the population is the problem. We are not at the population "goal" yet in most if any units.....but we see depradation and managment hunts and extended archery hunts each and every year.

2. We cant control cars (usually), we cant control cats (for the most part), but we can limit hunters.

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"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
They make their count in Dec, they should make a count in Nov, when their in their rut, they will get a better count of how many deer are in that area of the unit and then make another count in Dec.. On the Beaver, Panguitch Lake, Dutton units the deer cross over going to their winter range. that why you can't grt a accurate in Dec. They need to form committee for each Unit to help the DWR count and help manage each unit.
 
I don't see how you can even make the first step to help the Deer. with out an accurate count in each unit.
 
I agree, accurate and honest counts need to be made so there is a base to work from. I would bet the buck to doe ratio is much less than the numbers show. If the numbers are as low as everyone is saying, cutting tags by alot is a first step, not the only step but a first step. All those who think cutting tags do not help can be placed in one small unit by themselves. That should be ok with them because more tags does not kill off the bucks, should be plenty for them each year.
 
Thats easy to answer, both go up, more bucks you have, the more does that get bred and the more fawns you have and the more deer you have, simple math.
 
rperkins Very Very Very wrong because the Henry mtns, Bookcliffs, Vernon, San Juan's deer herds aren't increasing even with all the bucks on these units. The reason these herds aren't increasing is because of low fawn recruitment. With all the bucks on these units then every single doe should be getting bred during their first cycle so that fawns are born early so that they are more fit during the winter months, but many of our fawns even on these LE units aren't reaching adulthood and producing offspring.

So therefore rperkins you're going to have to bring up another solution. Because not enough bucks breeding the does isn't the issue otherwise we would see a high recruitment rate on LE units and the deer herds would be increasing.
 
AA if you close an area you wont see much difference in either direction.

Again your argument is based on the fact that human beings harvesting buck mule deer have enough impact on herds to do squat.

Dude you don't get it and you probably never will. Killing EXCESS BUCK MULE DEER doesn't mean sshit as far as overall population.








2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
>AA if you close an area
>you wont see much difference
>in either direction.
>
>Again your argument is based on
>the fact that human beings
>harvesting buck mule deer have
>enough impact on herds to
>do squat.
>
>Dude you don't get it and
>you probably never will. Killing
>EXCESS BUCK MULE DEER doesn't
>mean sshit as far as
>overall population.
>
>
+1. Thank you
>
>
>
>
>2010 TOTALS
>P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
>UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS
>GONE
 
I know it is hard for you to understand but killing more bucks does effect overall population. If you have a 100 bucks and kill 50 you have 50 less deer, and that does reduce the total population by 50. the math is not hard to do. Now for the overall population. I have been on the Henry and Pauns and agree that the overall population still needs to grow, and does not seem to grow very fast in these limited entry areas, but they are increasing more than those in the other areas of the state where we shoot every deer that has a horn and then even have a doe hunt each year. Why do you claim we should hunt more coyote, because less coyote means less deer killed. Same with the hunter, less hunters, less deer killed. Until the problem is fixed all areas need to be cut. Kill more coyotes, no more doe hunts, and less tags given out in each unit. Like I said before there should be one unit for all hunters who just want to go out in the hills and have the experience. It should not matter to them how many hunters are in the unit because according to you they do not effect the deer population, so you can still all have a good time each year. The rest of us want to try to see if we can bring back the deer herd by not allowing orange shirts to dot the hillsides.
 
SOUTA and SHOWMEYOURCAT pay attention I'm gonna SPLAIN for the last fricken time. SOUTA your statement about the Henries herd is innacurate. With the amount of buck tags that unit has each year and according to your philosophy there should be a population explosion and it ain't there.

It takes between 12 - 15 bucks to breed 100 doe's. Buck 16 is irrelevant. Means nothing and contributes nothing to the herd. No semen during breeding, no giving birth to fawns it just takes up space and is simply nothing more than a meal for a dog, cat, car or human. Still with me??

Now what ya'll are struggling with is the fact that it's better to have buck number 16 in the herd doing nothing than to have a doe in the herd carrying twin fawns.

Your philosophy deals with nothing more than managing buck 16 through however many you set the upper end of the buck to doe ratio at. Still with me??

You want more deer in Utah start managing for the doe's and buck 1 - 15, to say that you are worried about overall herd size and then gear your complete form of management towards the deer meant to be a meal is idiocy.




2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
Still hunter....you are right .... the population didnt go up on the books or henrys....just the bucks....brilliant...

I like this guys idea:
"All those who think cutting tags do not help can be placed in one small unit by themselves. That should be ok with them because more tags does not kill off the bucks, should be plenty for them each year."

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
Nice try Wiley but if we had it your way and put 100,000 hunters on the Henry mountain we soon would not have buck 16 or even buck 10 but would fall far below the 15 needed to help the deer herd increase, are you with me. That is the trouble to many tags killing to many bucks far below the 15 needed so the poor does are out looking for a buck to breed them and can't even find one. For this reason we to many doe's carrying no fawns year to year. Then to top it off we hand out doe permits and say lets kill a few more, because that may help the buck to doe ration look a little better.

Sorry Wiley we are not all about increasing bucks, but you have to get to the 15 to at least do the job. We are not even close to that many bucks right now. If we were the people on here would not be complaining about it. I would bet that no one thinks there are 15 bucks to 100 doe in any of the 30 units.

So Wiley how are you going to get the buck increase to 15, oh that is right you would give everyone a permit because that does not affect the number of bucks in the field.

Lets really get the number to 15 bucks per 100 doe and see if that might help more doe produce fawns. Right now I would have to agree with perkins the buck count is way off and not near what is needed to service the doe population.
 
SOUTA and AA I respect your opinions, unfortunately you fail to know the difference between a FACT and an opinion.

I've challenged you to pick a western state and show me where your philosophy has increased deer populations.

Take your time I'll wait.






2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
I agree Perkins, we are sitting at the bottom looking at the other states. If we don't cut back on what we have been doing we will continue to get what we have got which is nothing.
 
Interesting post, just curious to know what you guys think the actual or estimated mule deer population is right now in Utah, or what is the number we are being told?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-12 AT 02:45PM (MST)[p]SoUtahHunter is correct that we have nothing. The Gov tag shot on general season lands- nothing. All the posts of kids with their first deer- nothing. Even guys uploading photos of their mature general season bucks to show us here on MM- nothing. No mature bucks on the winter ranges- nothing. Nothing. Nothing.

You guys ever present any data to back-up your internet claims? Nah, thought so. Those states RPerkins listed are laughable as far as mule deer hunting for the average hunter.
 
Taximan, the estimate is around 280,000. I think it is within 20% of that. One thing is certain and we can all agree that the number is not high enough. Getting it higher is where the contention starts. Some guys want it to be higher by growing more bucks. The rest of us want it to get higher by growing more deer.
 
I thought the number was around 280,000 to 300,000. I don't believe there are that many but if there are and say the buck/doe ratio is 15/100. That leaves only 42,000 bucks in the state, if my math is correct. With over 90,000 hunters after less then half that many bucks spells disaster to me. I think all things should be considered in the decline of mule deer but we should focus on the simple thing first like limiting the number of tags. I have three boys that love to hunt but we go to other states when we can. I believe paying the extra cost for non-residents is worth the money and that we should be paying more here in Utah. Thirty five dollars is pretty cheap entertainment compared to other thing like golfing, skiing ect.
 
Let me give you some on the ground data. Not just driving the roads but out walking the hills where deer should be during the rut. On four different occasions saw between 75 and 150 doe and never over 6 bucks. Most herds of doe did not even have a buck in with them. There is some data you can apply to your guess of 20%.
 
Taximan, I agree with what you are saying if it helps the herd. The problem is all the states around us which limit buck hunters to carry 30-40 bucks (which is what AA said he wanted) per unit and the limited entry units in Utah ALL have the same problem of lack of herd growth. When I said within 20% that means there may only be 220,000 deer. No one knows for sure. There are also 30,000-40,000 yearling bucks you haven't added to that 40,000. Like I said, I am all for limiting tags if we are hurting the overall population or if anyone can prove carrying more bucks means we will have more doe and more fawns.

SoUtahHunter, So you took a hike and saw some deer? That is your data? You saw NO fawns? Really? We have been seeing more fawns this year than ever before. You must be in the worst area of the State. You should lobby the Fish and Game to shut down those few canyons. I took my 6 year old for a 20 minute hike (10 minutes out and 10 minutes back) on a general season unit over the weekend and we saw 7 bucks (4 mature), 7 doe, and 8 fawns.

Now, what real data do you have to prove to me that carrying 30-40 bucks per 100 doe will grow the doe and fawn portion of the deer herd? Not just growing bucks.
 
Actually I think the data from the UDWR is proving his point for him. If you look on page 49 in this report http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/annual_reports/10_bg_report.pdf it lists the bucks per 100 does for the limited entry and premium limited entry areas in 2010. In the limited entry areas the average is 30 to 40 and in the premium the average is 50 to 60. I think the difference would be the shear area that is listed. It's also funny to note that those are the areas with the FEWEST tags sold. It is about money in the long run, and they have to please both sides. I would say that Utah could benefit even more by breaking down the 30 units into 70 or 80 and concentrating the tag numbers based on sustainability that way. It would seem that there is some merit to bucks to does ratio as mother nature will produce what's lacking and at an average of 17 bucks per 100 does in the other general units it would seem that all that is being produced are bucks. And that is only enough to sustain the mortality rate. Hence the population is stagnant. Just a thought based on the quick math and 50/50 population rhetoric.
 
My responses:
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Wiley: we are one of the worst states when it comes to buck to doe ratios? Are you okay with that? Whats your solution?
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2point
You say I am out of line wanting 30 buck per 100.......Heck bud I'd take 20:100....you wont find a general unit in Utah with a 20:100 ....pathetic.
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I have 6 points in Colorado and will hunt it next year....again
I will draw a G tag in Wyoming this year
Two years from now I will draw in Nevada
Have fun in Utah

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
Hey AA, we can agree! 20 per 100. You started all this by asking for 30-40. I have 4 points for CO, the most I have ever accumulated for CO because their herds are tanking. I have hunted CO for the last decade and have seen the downward spiral. Hunted G and H in WY for 2 decades and it isn't worth it these past few years as their herds have been down. The Big Piney/Pinedale herd is down over 60% the past decade. We have had some good general season hunts here in the Central Region the past years. Mature bucks, non-typicals, etc. So thanks, we will have a great time hunting Utah general season if we can get tags. You and I both want better deer herds. Just not on the same page as how to get there.
 
As it seems that this topic is stagnant and ready to really begin the debate/dialog on actual ideas to help the deer populations and still maintain a high level of suitability for the hunters I will throw a few out there. I'm sure that after this is done you will all hate a part of me equally. And just in case you don't make it fully through this post, on account of how many words are in it, let me thank you now for your opinions.

Let's just cut right to the chase. Reducing the units to 30 instead of 5 was a start, but in reality they should have been reduced to something more like 70 or 80 and that's being conservative. If you are going to make the statement that you are managing tags based on buck to doe ratios then at least have the common decency to reduce the size of the area you are accounting for to a serviceable number! Examples - ANY of the LE or Premium LE units. They boast buck to doe ratios of 40 to 50 per 100 and 50 to 60 for the Premium LE units. Now this is based on the belief that there is something to the notion that does will produce more female offspring if the buck count is above a certain percentage, and nothing more. And while we are at it, why does every piece of land in the state have to be a part of the hunt boundaries? That brings me to another point (don't stop reading yet, this will really get people stirring).

If you legally own land that is not within a zoned city or non-firearm discharge ordinance then you can purchase a maximum of two tags per year for your land at the same price as a CWMU permit. These tags are registered to WHOMEVER YOU WANT TO at the time of purchase. Some people own an acre, some own a thousand. I DON'T CARE! If you own land and you want to hunt it every year then please do so. Some caveats here though. You cannot transfer/sell/party hunt your tags. You also cannot allow any other tag holders to hunt on your land, PERIOD. Let's be real about this some people have owned land forever, in some really prime hunting grounds, and they want to hunt it! Honestly it's not going to make a huge difference. As long as we are talking about limiting tags let me stay on that topic.

REDUCE THE NUMBER OF PERMITS, PERIOD! Hunt success is 24% according to the 2010 report. Look at the success rate on the LE units alone, the average is 85%. Now I don't think that you have to limit tags by enough to see that high of a success rate, 65% would suffice, but I do think that the rate is low because the units are too big and there are a ton of hunters crammed in to small areas of these large units. If you reduce the area size and have a manageable number of animals you can then accurately manage the amount of hunters in that area and maintain your acceptable kill losses, oh and maintain your buck to doe ratios. But that's not enough.

If the unit has a habitable population below 75% of its DESIRED amount, THEN IT'S NOT OPEN FOR HUNTING regardless of ratio! And then the unit will only be issued enough tags to sustain a level greater than 70% of the desired population. There should also be some limiting factors per unit based on percentage of surviving fawns and a charted percentage of population growth of no less than 5% per year. This will both take into account the unique characteristics of that habitat and the predator issues surrounding it. Which bring me to my next point.

Attempt in some way to manage the predators and keep counts of them at the SAME TIME AS managing deer herd populations. This stuff isn't rocket science is it? Wildlife biologists have some pretty substantial evidence on how many of what species of predator will reduce the surrounding game (it's food) numbers by annually. And in my humble opinion, HUNT THEM UNTIL BOTH THEY AND THE DEER ARE MANAGED! Speaking of hunting, isn't that what we all really want to do?

Increase the amount of hunting days in the field, OH NO HE DIDN'T JUST SAY THAT, Oh yes he did. If you've responsibly issued tags based on manageable loss numbers then why not? Also, if you don't draw a tag, but still want to share in the experience of hunting annually BUY A CAMERA AND GO ANYWAY! Or maybe post on MM that you are a lonely white male in search of high adventure with copper, brass and gunpowder, but you regrettably didn't tag out this year so you are willing to mope along on someone's hunt just for the pleasure of putting a smile on their face. Not trying to put a guide out of work here, but it is true that many people get more satisfaction through helping others. There are a bunch of hunters, myself included, who never really learned the art of hunting and would relish the opportunity to!

Keep the CWMU's if they are willing. Landowner can't hunt it though. It's either his two tags or the state's managed tag number, sorry. Also, reduce the price to that of the general tags. Don't worry my next point will make up the difference in the money.

If you would like the opportunity to receive an extra bonus point every year until you've reached 10 points or more then listen up. (My ignorance will show through here, let me apologize in advance). If you put in for an LE unit AND a General tag you have the option to earn an extra bonus point for an extra fee. Three ways to do it, first if you want to earn an extra bonus point toward a General unit, but not have the annoying inconvenience of losing your LE preference points when you draw out then check the box on the left, and pay an extra $10. If you would like the opportunity to receive an extra bonus point for an LE unit AND a general unit, which will reset your points to zero if you draw out either, then check the box in the middle and pay an extra $20. And lastly if you would like to purchase that extra bonus point for an LE unit but not lose your total points towards the General then check the box on the right and pay an extra $100. That's right a hundred bucks, what's it worth to you? Some caveats here though, you can put in for the General hunt the year after you drew out your LE but you cannot put in for another LE hunt for 2 years. Who am I kidding though, if they adopted the 80 unit plan they would all be LE's (GASP).

Okay, so that last part was just silliness and it was intended. Please feel free to pick and prod and debate or just say intentionally rude and ignorant things. This is just the start of my idea list and I can think of many many more. The problem as I see it is everybody wants to implement ONE thing and call it the solution, when as I recall it takes five things to create a habitat, why wouldn't it take at least that to maintain the animals who live in it?
 
My Responses:
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2point

1. I hunted the Centeral Unit this year as well. I know where to find the bucks as well. I saw over 15 bucks in 3 days of hunting. One buddy took a nice 3 point (his first buck), another 14 year old nephew took a 2 point (his second buck), and his father took a very heavy and huge necked 4 point with a dark rack. In the process of hunting we missed many many more bucks than that.

SSSSOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO WHHHHHHHHHHHHAT!!! That just means I know where to find the 15 bucks in the unit. THAT DOES NOT MEAN WE ARE AT POPULATION GOAL FOR THE UNIT.

2. What can we control?
A. Predators?....maybe...if the dwr lets us and poisons that work arent made illegal....oh wait ...tooo late...we can do our best but this is not going to be the only answer and we CONTROL very little of this answer

B. Habitat?...I have been in the DH program 3 times and helped with tons of habitat projects. I cant control the projects...that is up to the DWR...I dont know if the habitat needs to be improved or not! I am not a biologist and they dont put out much for a habitat report by unit...maybe we should....but then we have to trust Barry Bama to let us burn sage flats and chain pinyon trees....not in my control.....City planners building cities along the Wasatch...not in my control...and it only affects the Front....the rest of the state has TONS of winter range.

C. Hunting.....in our control

So we should try to help in all areas but definately use what is in our area of control.

3. Wyoming...Colorado....Nevada....they may all have declining herds....BUT...IT IS STILL BETTER THAN UTAH!!!! You complain about how bad they are now....but even in their state of decline Region G, most of Colorado, and much of Nevada KICK OUR BUTS!!!! I have hunted there as well for the last 17 years....and taken some awesome animals....I hunted there last year....and will gladly leave the state agiain to hunt elsewhere....BECAUSE THEY HAVE FIGURED IT OUT!

WHY CANT WE SET OUR GOALS AS HIGH AS THE OTHER GUYS?
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Rising Sun:
Excellent post!
1. Increase areas from 30 to 50 or 80....awesome and I agree.
2. LE hunts should have lower success rates...I disagree....I cant afford to wait 20 years to draw and have a 50% success rate. I only have a 40 year hunting career at best so I would end up hunting twice and shooting a buck once.....in my life....
3. Close units below 70 % of population goals.....this should be an obvious solution.....maybe not....I obvoiously AGREE!



"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
I agree Aspen, while the other states have declined they are far better than Utah. I also agree that just because you know where a group of bucks hold out in a unit does not mean that unit is full of bucks. You probably just know where the majority of the bucks are. I still have not heard any hunters who get out in the field say that they think the buck to doe ratio is what DWR counts show. The hunter is far below their counts. Why would the hunter claim there is not enough deer including bucks if all they want is a tag. The hunters see a true problem and are willing to do what it takes to help the problem, including cutting tags which is one thing that can be controlled. The creation of 30 units is a start, but if all they do is average the same number of tags into all 30 units it has not accomplished anything. I think as aspen said the units are still to large to really monitor the buck to doe ratio but it is a start in the right direction. Lets just hope the DWR will really try to fix this and not just give lip service. The hunters are ready to do their part and sacrifice.
 
your arguements go round and round because you blending in two different issues. It seems two point and elitehornhunter and maybe a couple others think the hunting is very good on average in Utahs general units, there are plenty of big bucks and everything is fine except the overall deer numbers, most of you seem to think Utahs general seasons are overcrowded and there is a lack of mature bucks is a problem besides the declining deer numbers. I would say that its overcrowded and mostly sad hunting, and I would bet that mature buck numbers are well down percentage wise compared to overall herd size. Im a nonresident and don't hunt in Utah nearly as much as the rest of you, but what do you hunters that have been around a while think about the percentage of mature bucks and the quality of Utahs deer hunting, now as compared to the past?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-12 AT 09:31AM (MST)[p]Today there are more mature buck per hundred deer in South Central Utah. That's because in the 1970, 1980 and half of the 1990s our herd units we down to 2 to 5 buck per hundred doe and very few (maybe .5 out of 10 bucks) we older than 1.5 years of age. When higher buck doe ratios were forced on the system we began to see a slight up turn in the age class of deer.

When you go on the deer counts with the DWR now, you will see 15% to 20% of the bucks older than 1.5 years.

Our problem has moved from too few bucks per hundred does to too few of our fawns that are surviving. We can't seem to increase our over all numbers of deer. In fact, we are losing more every year.

It's not that we don't a few mature bucks, we do, the really committed hunters can find one, on any unit in the State.

In the 1980's we killed over 80,000 buck deer in Utah, based on DWR methods of determining how many deer it would take to produce and harvest 80,000 buck deer, we had 1,200,000 deer in 1983. In 2010 we killed under 23,000 buck deer which the DWR tell us were produced from a total population of 300,000 deer.

So...........we have gone from 1,200,000 deer to 300,000 and we continue to decline.

Don't get caught up in the argument that it's been the loss of habitat or the loss winter range. We are over run by deer in down town Bountiful, Utah. If development and encroachment are the problem, why are the healthiest units in Utah on the Wasatch Front and the worst units in the rural parts of the State where we have good habitat and the same winter range we've had for 200 years.

If you lived in Utah and you were a deer hunter, how would that reality work for you?

DC
 
You guys don't get it. None of my posts claim there are enough deer in Utah and that Utah hunting is very good. You just don't understand that having 30-40 bucks per 100 doe at a cost of not hunting for years will not bring the herds back.

SoUtahHunter, hunters are not ready sacrifice. AA thinks the herd in his area is horrible so what did he do? Yeah, he went and shot 3 bucks out of it. He didn't sacrifice a thing to help the deer herd he says he is worried about.

Piper, I would guess that the ratio of mature bucks to other deer is stable to up over the past decade. The problem is there are less deer. 2Lumpy made a solid post.
 
We all know that mule deer numbers are down,and thats in a lot of places in the west, thats a big issue, Having been born and lived in Utah from time to time, growing up in Nevada and now living in Wyoming, I get to see the different management strategies at work and how things have changed over the years. Im surprised that some of you maintain that the buck ratios are in pretty good shape despite overall low deer numbers. I will say one thing about high buck to doe ratioes and restrictive quotas though. While hunting deer in Nevada over the years I have gotten to hunt many places I wouldn't have otherwise hunted because I drew that certain tag and despite the restrictive hunt quotas, there is still quite a bit of opportunity, not only that I have nephews and other family in both Utah and Nevada, and on average the ones in Nevada get a lot more excited come deer season, It wasn't always that way.
 
Also in Nevada they do not believe in over crowding of hunters. They manage their unit and if tags need to be cut or an area shut down that is what happens, in Utah some seem to think that any number of tags is good, as it will not decrease the deer herd. Smaller units with wise decisions need to happen in Utah help increase deer herds.
 
2point...

Not only did our party get 3 bucks but we got much much more...I hunt seriously and with a lot of people.

You dont like it? Cut my tags! I dare ya to.....till then I am going to keep hunting because hunters aren't the problem and there are still 2 bucks in this unit to breed the does :)

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
When the population is at 50% of goal.....

Why not cut tags drastically or shut down a unit?

Why?

You cant control cars, you cant really control predators, you can control hunting.....and it works in our LIMITED ENTRY UNITS....that is why they are called LIMITED ENTRY and thousands of hunters want to draw them.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
No one has the guts to reduce tags or shut an area down, can't have the loss in revenue, why don't they just raise the price of the tags they do sell if they need to. Did anyone notice reduction in hunters this year. They were supposed to have reduced 7,000 tags but you could not see a change where I was at in fact looked like more hunters.
 
I agree...if they increased tag prices 20% we could reduce tags by 20%...pretty simple.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
We pay $35 for a tag......ARE YOU KIDDING?

I will pay $500 to hunt Wyoming this year.

Raise it to $70 and we will still be selling out of tags.

I cant beleive something I wait all year for costs me less than a tank of gas. Pretty good deal!

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
Aspen, your saying we should make areas LE units and that will fix the deer herds? Hahaha then you will be crying and complaining that you can even draw a tag in less than 5 years. Boy that will be great won't it?

The vernon unit is a prime example. The unit was closed for 5 years then reopened with very few tags. They kill a lot of the nice bucks out the first year it reopened. The vernon unit use to have a lot more deer then it has right now. The deer population isn't even half the size as it was before and it's been a LE unit for at least 10 years after they reopened it again.

If we turned every unit in this state to LE then we would have between 15,000 to 30,000 total tags. I like hunting more often then 5 to 10 years.

Henry mountains, Bookcliffs, Vernon, San Juan are all below objective and you think this is a good way to manage deer.
 
15,000 tags is probably what we need to go to the way everyone is talking about the decline in deer population. I am willing to go five years without hunting to help rebound the deer herd, trouble is hornhunter guys like you are not so you keep making excuses of why cutting tags will not help. I would hunt for a few good bucks on the Vernon every five years, compared to walking the hills and maybe see one or two small bucks they way we have it now.
 
TheElitehornhunter

Isn't that the Republican and Democrat view on the economy that has driven us deeeeeeep into debt?.....

"We dont have the money but we need to spend it anyway cause it feels good"

You are saying the same thing when you say.....we should cut tags but "I want to hunt more than every 5 years."

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
Look, the State of Utah already is a "LIMITED ENTRY" unit.

Coreect me if I am wrong but you have to apply for a tag in a draw and not everyone draws....even for the general units.

Allllllllll I am saying is it is time to control what we can......hunting pressure.....until the population hits the goal.

If you dont want to thats fine....I hunt in a great place

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
AA, so what you are saying is that you are selfish. You guys killed even more and then brag about it on the internet? You claim there are no bucks left, yet you are a killing machine? Selfish. You put your desire to pull the trigger above the welfare of the herd which you claim to be are concerned for. You guys are the problem. You can hunt and do not have to shoot, but you do and cause harm to a herd you claim is in real trouble. You are the problem you want to solve. You will never get the fact you are the problem. Be a man, get a tag, don't shoot. Become part of the solution and not another selfish problem.
 
The wildlife in Utah especially mule deer is politically driven instead of biologically, until that changes we will be in this endless loop of chaos. All these kneejerk reactions have just caused more frustration and loss of resources over the past 15 plus years.
 
2_Point

Whats the point in getting a tag and going hunting when you have no intentions of killing a buck? Whats the use of the tag? Do I understand that you yourself get a tag, keep it yourself, when others would like to have that tag (others who were not lucky enough to draw a general season tag), and then sit on your laurels on your living room couch watching the tube......instead of trying to connect on a decent buck and make use of your tag? That sounds quite selfish to me! Although, I bet when you get a tag, you are just like AA and all the rest of us.......you go on the hunt, and hunt hard in the hopes of connecting on a decent buck.

Also, AA said that out of the guys in his group the ones that shot bucks were 1. a guy that had never shot a buck before; 2. a kid that took only his second buck in his life; and 3. a guy that connected on a decent buck. I see nothing wrong with that! Congrats to them all!! Sounds like their hard hunting paid off. As far as his group taking more bucks than he mentioned on the internet.....it sounded to me he was being a little sarcastic about that. Who wouldn't be a little sarcastic at the replies he got from his post?
 
"""""""""""""Deer numbers are down.
Predators are killing all the "extra" animals.
We can't seem to do anything to turn it around.
So, Let's end hunting, or at least shut it down for awhile."""""""""""


Hey guys, this sounds like the agenda and the talking-points of the anti-hunting groups. We should all be a little careful what we wish for!

We all want more bucks, more deer, more tags, fewer hunters BUT if some of us get our way we'll become easy prey for the antis or at least lose a significant number of hunters. Our ranks need even the casual hunter, in this day and age.

I'll settle for medeocre hunting and lots of competition if the alternative is not hunting at all.

With that said, there is a balance, which need to be struck, between over harvesting and over limiting. I don't know what that is but I think we're headed in the right direction. The next couple of years will tell.

Great post with a bunch of educated comments by some thoughtful folks. I've read every single post with deep interest.

Zeke
 
HEY GUYS KNOW WHAT I'VE BEEN DOING WHILE WE ARE HAVING SUCH BEAUTIFUL WEATHER. NOT SCREENING THE INTERNET, NOT GOING TO THE LIBRARY TO FIND ARTICLES, WRITTEN BY WHO KNOW WHO. NO SIR, I DECIDED NOT TO PULL THE SHOES FROM MY HORSE AND DO A LITTLE RIDING IN THE MOUNTAINS. THE LAST FIVE DAYS I'VE RIDDEN UP AND OVER MOUNTAIN AREAS THAT MOST OF YOU HUNTERS WILL NEVER SEE, MOSTLEY IN CENTRAL, EASTERN AND SOUTHERN UTAH. I'M NOT A HARVARD GRADUATE, BUT I KNOW THAT WHAT "I SAW" WITH "MY OWN EYES" IS A FACT. AND I CAN TELL YOU BOYS THAT THE MULE DEER HERD IS HURTING. YES I SAW BUCKS, SOME NICE ONE TOO, AND I SAW A FAIR SHARE OF DOES, THESE DEER WERE MIGRATING TO THEIR WINTER RANGE, THEN I LOOKED AT THE TERRAIN THAT THEY WOULD BE MIGRATING BACK TO IN THE SPRING AND KNEW THAT ONCE THEY WERE SPREAD OVER THAT VAST AREA, THEY WOULD BE LIKE FIND A NEEDLE IN A HAYSTACK. I RUN CATTLE FROM JUNE TO OCTOBER, I COVER A LOT OF MOUNTAIN AREA CHECKING ON THEM, SO LET ME SET YOUR MINDS AT EASE....THERE IS PLENTY OF BITTER BRUSH AND BROWSE TO FEED TRIPLE THE AMOUNT OF DEER THAT WE HAVE, GOOD FEED AND I CAN SHOW YOU HILLSIDE AFTER HILLSIDE OF THIS FEED, BUT KNOW WHAT, I NEVER SAW ANY SIGNS OF DEER EATING OFF THIS FOLIAGE AND THIS IS WHAT I SAW WITH MY OWN EYES SO ITS A FACT..TO YOU THAT WONDER WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE PAUNSAUGUNT. WELL ITS ONLY COMMON SENSE, THAT IT WAS THE ALMIGHT DOLLAR. AFTER IT WAS CLOSED FOR A FEW YEARS AND OPENED THERE WAS AN ABUNDANCE OF DEER, AND BOY DID DWR EVER SELL THE TAGS. BIG BUCKS AFTER BIG BUCKS WERE TAKEN ONCE THEY CLEARED THE GREEN OUT OF THEIR EYES, THEY REALIZED WHAT WAS HAPPENING AND CUT TAGS WAY BACK, NOW TRY AND TELL THE PEOPLE IN THAT AREA (KANE CO.) THAT ISN'T THE REASON.
I PUT 50 COWS OUT IN THE PASTURE WITH 3 BULL= 50 calves
I SELL 15 COWS= 35 CALVES I THEN SELL TWO BULLS (DON'T NEED THAT MANY FOR BREEDING) AND 20 COWS=15 CALVES, THEN I SELL MY ONLY BULL AND GET 0 CALVES "WAKE UP" WHO IS TELLING US HUNTER HOW MANY DEER ARE IN THOSE MOUNTAINS DWR RIGHT? WHO IS TELL US HOW TAGS ARE BEING SOLD DWR RIGHT? I CAN TELL YOU ONE THING, I HAVE NEVER ASK FOR OR TAKEN A LAND OWNER TAG AND I DON'T INTENT TO, BUT I SURE HAVE SOME GOOD NEIGHBORS THAT GET PLENTY AND THEY HAVE PROSPERED. ONE THING ABOUT UNIT HUNTING IS DWR WILL NOT ONLY 5 UNITS SCREAMING ABOUT THE DEER THEY WILL NOW HAVE 30 UNITS SCREAMING, AND IT WILL SERVE THEM RIGHT. I GO ALONG WITH SOME EXPERIMENT UNITS AND LET THE ONES THAT THINK THERE ARE PLENTY OF DEER TO GO AROUND OR JUST WANT TO HAVE FUN GET IN THESE UNITS THEN REEVULATE THEM IN A COUPLE OF YEARS. OH WILL MAYBE MY OLE COMMON SENSE JUST DOESN'T COUNT WE HAVE TO BE SCHOOL EDUCATED HA HA HA HA TO KNOW THAT WE HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE MULE DEER HERE IN UTAH.
 
When the fishing gets bad in a lake or river they change regs until it rebounds.

Problem is....with deer you can not catch and release.

So, we are left with no choice....cut tags untile we reach the goal in each unit.

I have sons that want to hunt...and I want to hunt with them...but that doesnt change the fact that the units are NOT AT GOAL.....I want to hunt every year.....BUT THE UNITS ARE NOT AT GOAL....I want to hunt for big bucks....BUT THE UNITS ARE NOT AT GOAL...

Get them to goal....and hunt the excess....so simple....but yet we are over 100 posts just figuring it out.....come one guys..

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
Nice post COMSENSE!

The sooner people realize the state isn't going to manage the herd for the betterment of the herd (unless it is profitable and what the politics of the populous asks for) and they are not going to go against what the selfish unknowing public wants.

Like it or not the govt. has not and will not do what is best for mule deer unless it coincides with their agenda. Which means until they can find a way to improve the herd and still sell all those tags and let people have all the opportunity they want and still make money they will be fine with business as usual because there are still so many people that are buying their bull chit counts as witnessed by the posts here.

Bill

Kill the buck that makes YOU happy!
 

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