DWR possible changes to 2011 season

[yoteslayer]

Go to the dwr website and check out what they want to do, especially with the deer hunts. They want an early and late rifle season with the muzzleloader stuck right in the middle. Why? Who comes up with these ideas? There is also a list of meetings where you can voice your ideas and concerns. What do you guys think?

 

[Muley_73]

I do not agree with hunting bucks in the rut. However I do support the split season. I hope this is the start of making smaller units and limiting how many tags are give for each. As far as the muzzy hunt moving to middle not a big deal. I have hunted the muzzy and actually killed some of my better bucks. However we all know that the muzzleloaders have changed since they got their own hunt! They are no longer a primitive weapon. They are open sight single shot rifles! The ballistics that some guys are getting and range they are shooting is better than 30-30 and like rifles. If the true muzzy hunters want to go back to side lock open sight rifles, then they have an arguement about better season dates. Until then just be happy they left the loop hole open as long as they did.

We are all becoming more proficient hunters with the advancement of our gear. Long range rifles, inline muzzys, faster compound bows, range finders, better optics, atvs. You name it and we have improved it. It all adds up and the deer herd has suffered. If they will not limit our technology they must limit the number of hunters.

Antler Restriction is one optionand so is more LE or all LE. We all should take a look at setting out every other year or even two out of three years. This would give us all better hunting experiences and insure our childern will have oppurtunity in the future. As has been shown with LE elk the whole group will join in if it is fun hunt with chance of great success. It is an easy fix, but I don't believe that enough hunters care enough to set out even one year, TOO SELFISH! It really is a sad situation.

 

[yoteslayer]

What is your weapon of choice? Most likely a bow hunter with one a those faster bow's and new range finder's (correct me if i'm wrong). If you are how long do have to hunt? Way longer than the rest of us, maybe you should go back to recurve bows to justify your season length!

 

[Muley_73]

Wow, nice work Sherlock. Actually I hunt all of the hunts. I would hunt with a rock if the let me. I have not archery hunted for the past 5 years. It got to crowded. I actually agree that the archery hunt is too long. The point is all hunting is advancing. But hey good guess anyways, any other insight you picked up from my post? Another Clown joins the circus!

 

[Muley_73]

Also, I do not own a range finder. I shoot a 10 year old PSE Thunderbolt with aluminum arrows. I shoot fixed blade broadheads and thought recently of buying a recurve to play around with. I do shoot an inline muzzy, TC and with three pellets and powerbelts I can consitantly shoot out to 250. I also shoot an A Bolt 300 win mag and I'm currently looking at which long range scope I am going to buy. So I would say I am an avid average sportsman that improves his gear when he has the cash. Kind of like alot the guys on this sight. Point being, the system needs to change regardless of what we choose to hunt with. Last year the archers screamed they were getting screwed, this year the muzzy hunters are going to start screaming. How about we all agree that the herd needs improvement even if it takes sacrifices.

 

[yoteslayer]

"Last year the archers screamed they were getting screwed, this year the muzzy hunters are going to start screaming. How about we all agree that the herd needs improvement even if it takes sacrifices. " I agree "if" "everyone" sacrifices or it makes no sense

 

[Muley_73]

That would have been the point of my first post. I did not know you were going to read it with a seceret decoder ring or I might have not posted.

Just like I said we are too selfish. Each group feels they are the ones getting crapped on so they will not sacrifice. You are right, we all should cut back on tags! But each group has their own agenda instead of coming together for the sake of the big picture. Do you really muzzy hunt because of the primative weapon chanllenge or because it is the best oppurtunity to harvest a buck?

I personally know the guys that pushed for the seperate muzzy hunt back in the late 70's and early 80's before they had a seperate season. They no longer even muzzy hunt because it has strayed so far from what it was to begin with.

More days in the field more oppurtunity for our special groups. Do you not realize that if we work at increasing our overall deer numbers all of those things could be possible?

 

[yoteslayer]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-28-09 AT 09:08PM (MST)[p]I do hunt because a the challenge, I like the stalk an knowing most likely your only gonna get one shot. My best oppurtunity to harvest a buck would be with a rilfe but I chose not to because a the number of muzzy hunters where I hunt and the thrill i get hunting muzzleloader.

 

[REDDOG]

muley73, do tell why inlines are so superior to side locks? how have they increased range? how are they more accurate?

 

[Muley_73]

At one point it was to do with barrel twist and ability to shoot sabot type bullets as opposed to the traditional round ball or maxi bullets. Now you can actually purchase a better barrel to put on your sidelock. Just another example of technology making us better. So the main advantage now is a quicker powder ingnition with 209 primers and more direct ingnition path.

 

[Muley_73]

Sory about the spelling. Guess I should proof read first.

 

[hossblur]

Didn't they move the muzz hunt from the first of Nov. because it was to close to the rut, and some years was in the begining of the rut? So why are they putting a rifle hunt there? The split is great but why not change the current muzz hunt with a rifle hunt, followed by the elk hunt then the current rifle hunt, followed by the muzz hunt. That way at least there is a break and not a month solid of deer being chased.

 

[muleywatcher]

>What is your weapon of choice?
>Most likely a bow hunter
>with one a those faster
>bow's and new range finder's
>(correct me if i'm wrong).
>If you are how long
>do have to hunt? Way
>longer than the rest of
>us, maybe you should go
>back to recurve bows to
>justify your season length!

maybe you should switch to archery if you dont like it!!
even with a longer archery season the rifle (general season)
still harvest more deer than the archery season all together
even the retards at utahs dwr can figure that out.
Very bad idea to move the general season later on, I thought
utah was trying to increase deer population not deplete it.
but we defently need to do something different
means sacrifice by all hunters, close down certian areas, regions, less tags, work more with land owners ranchers on winter ranges less deprevation tags! stop residential,commercial devolopment on wild life habitat areas,our public land is diminishing utah sells our land to private land owners every year.

 

[goofyelk]

I'm an archery guy so I LOVE the new elk hunting dates....
The deer dates could use a little work though.

 

[carbonnation]

I think putting any rifle hunt before the ML hunt is foolish. Even if loaders have improved over the years, they still only have one shot and can't just jack another round in. It is not as primitive as it once was, but it is still a lot more primitive than a 300rum with a 5-20 scope.

Second, if they insist on having two rifle seasons, than the first season must be a shorter one. Start it on a thursday and end on monday. If you get first crack at the deer, then you get a shorter season. That way guys will have to decide if they want to be the first rifle on the mountain, or have longer to hunt.

Last, stay away from the rut. Those big bucks are dumb as rocks that time of year. If they can run the gauntlet in october, they deserve some time alone with the ladies.

Ultimately, our deer herd are in the hunters hands. If you want to see more bucks, stop killing small one just to kill one. I know far too many hunters that shoot a small buck every year, because they feel their license entitles them too. If you don't need the meat, let those bucks walk, or quite complaining when you don't see as many deer.

 

[featherflipper]

To be fare I hunt with all three weapons, I just love to hunt. This year I killed three bucks. "Rifle in Wyoming, Muzzy in Colorado, and Archery in utah". This year I took my 15 year old brother muzzy hunting in Utah "central region". We seen One two point, in 3 days! I took my wife rifle hunting "central Region". We could not find a buck. My wife hunted 5 full days and put several miles on the boots. My wife and little brother were first time hunters and so far don't want to hunt next year!!!

My views- 2008 utah kill %

-Rifle 43,680 total hunters. 12,218 bucks killed "28%" and average hunt days 3.7

-Muzzy 11,488 total hunters. 3,171 bucks killed "27.6%" and average hunt days 4.3

-Archery 13,331 total hunters. 2,551 bucks killed "19.7%" and
average hunt days 8.7

Ok, So we know the dwr will not cut tags because of $$$. We know most people still want to hunt every year. We know we need to get the youth and new hunters involved.

I told you I love to hunt all 3 weapons, but if the average Archery hunter hunts for 8.7 days and only kills 19.7% "and it's state wide, Most kills in the south" and a rifle hunter only hunts for 3.7 days and can still kill at 28% than something is wrong. I too would rather have a gun in my hand but when I took two first time hunters this year on two diff. hunts and could only find one 2 point???

This is what needs to happen...

-Same amount of tags, so the dwr will be happy with the $$$

- So in 2008 there was 68,499 hunters afield in all three hunts lets breal it up like this "RIFLE 34,250 tags. you still get 50%"
"MUZZY 14,250 Tags" "ARCHERY 20,000 tags"

Best Idea!!! NO MORE TWO pionts..
A 1 to 1.5 year old buck are usually still hanging around does off the side of the road and are stupid. If this bucks could get to 2 years old they become twice as smart. Lets have a no two point and spike rule. Let anyone 16 years and younger be able to kill any buck including 2 points. This will get the youth involved and they can see a few bucks. And be excided about hunting. In turn how many bigger bucks will grow??? Alot!!!

Yea rifle hunters will not be happy, but they can still hunt and see more deer, better quality and watch the youth have more fun!!!

 

[muleywatcher]

I agree 100% 3 point or bigger state wide, sure it will be 4 or 5 years before we see real results but its definitly worth it, more and more hunting ranches are adopting the concept of
harvesting mature bucks 4 years and older, because it works.
It is a small sacrifice for a better hunting future!

 

[treedagain]

for everyone who wants a 3 point or better season.....expect to see A BUNCH of dead 2 points....that was the outcome when the wellsvilles were 3 point or better

 

[Muley_73]

Would that be different than every buck that is currently shot on the Wellsvilles? The actual numbers of illegal kills report by the DWR the first time around were actually pretty misleading. Like having 1 illegal kill reported one year and having 4 the following year with 3 point or better. The DWR then reported a 300 percent increase in the illegal kills for that unit. Well very true but they only reported the percent not the actual numbers. I think it crazy that enough hunters can not count to 3 that it is even an issue.

The more I have read on this post I think my views have changed. I think that sportsman should only be worried about increasing the overall deer numbers above all else. If we can get to that point many, many options will open up for discussion on how the hunts should be handled.

 

[regularjoe]

This is obviously a passionate debate with lots of ideas - some better than others. Which ones will work I don't know. Here is what I do know. I have hunted deer with both rifle and muzzleloader. I currenlty hunt with a muzzleloader. I shot patch and ball back in the day. I currently shoot an inline. I hunted in the 90's when the muzzleloader hunt was in Novermber. My success (harvest) was no better then than it is now with the earlier hunt and the use of an inline. However, I had a much better time during the November hunt - less people (which is what I think we all want). I would gladly go back to patch and ball if it meant a late hunt. My one question to ask is this: If the state cannot/will not allow a general season muzzleloader hunt in November, why are most of the CWMUs allowed to hunt deer into November, the ninth I believe it was this year?
As a side note, I killed a buck some years ago that was lip curling and chasing does the second weekend of the rifle hunt. I have seen this behavior several times during the second weekend. Having seen this, I would say that deer are being hunted during the rut. For those of you against hunting deer during the rut, we had better get the rifle hunt moved to earlier in the year or shortened (I am in favor of both).

 

[regularjoe]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-11-09 AT 01:51PM (MST)[p]After my prior post I checked the CWMU dates. CWMUs were allowed to hunt deer to as late as yesterday (Nov.10th). This allowance falls into the same time frame as the muzzleloader hunt date back in the 90s. Just food for thought.

 

[Muley_73]

The reason they are allow to hunt in to Nov is deer movement. Some of the CWMUs do not have deer move into them until later in the year. They then support the deer through the winter. So the DWR gives the option to all the CWMWs. For some this is a waste as the deer have moved off of the unit. Others do not even hunt until later as the deer have not onto the unit until late Oct early Nov. You also must understand that landowners and public hunters are not view in the same light by the DWR.

Now I will beat my new view point. Many many options will open up if we can get the deer herds to a healthy number! Including select early and late hunts. With the state that the deer herds are in now these options would seem irresponsible. If the herds were at carrying capacity and overall numbers were up, many many options would be feisible! Lets worry about doing what ever it takes to bring the overall numbers back up and then we can try moving hunt dates or antler restriction or extended season or more trophy units.

 

[regularjoe]

I agree that landowners and public hunters are not viewed the same by the DWR. Can you name any CWMUs that do not have deer move into them until later in the year? You have peaked my interest as you seem to have an answer for everything.
I am with you on getting the deer numbers back up and the options that will allow. Until then, good luck to us all.

 

[nebo12000]

This is an e-mail I received for consideration. It has alot of the same ideas that many on this site have been expressing. Its nice to know that some of us arm chair biologists really do have some pretty good ideas and proposals.

Steve D. Dahmer
Wildlife Biologist
600 CR 216
Rifle, CO 81650
November 1, 2009
Bill Bates
Southeastern Region Manager
Division or Wildlife Resources
Southeastern Region
319 North Carbonville Road
Price, UT 84501
RE: Big Game Hunting Season Changes 2011
Mr. Bates:
I am submitting this letter to provide comments to the Division of Wildlife Resources (DWR) and
southeastern Regional Advisory Council (RAC) regarding proposed changes to the big game hunting
season structure starting in 2011. The current proposals being offered by DWR generally represent an
encouraging change in big game management philosophy, but I believe there are a few items that remain
extremely problematic, as noted below:
1) Muzzleloader hunt scheduled between two rifle hunts. The general season muzzleloader
deer/elk hunt should occur prior to the first general season rifle deer/elk hunt.
2) Rifle season length. To accommodate two general Rifle deer hunts, many hunts will require
shorter seasons.
First, it is important that the general season muzzleloader deer/elk hunt occur prior to the first general
season rifle deer/elk hunt. As currently proposed, the general season muzzleloader falls between the early
and late rifle hunts, which structure would put muzzleloader hunters at an extreme disadvantage. There
can be no argument that rifle hunters have a far better chance of harvesting game than muzzleloader
hunters, which begs the question why would DWR place a limited-weapons season between two rifle
hunts? That hinders hunter opportunity, decreases interest in the primitive weapons season, reduces
revenue and serves no wildlife management function. In my opinion, there are two viable options for an
effective muzzleloader season:
1. Schedule the muzzleloader season before the early rifle hunt
2. Schedule the muzzleloader season after the late rifle hunt (preferably with a 5-7 day break
between seasons) and allow them to hunt late, as was the case prior to 1999.
In my opinion, an early muzzleloader hunt offers a better biological management option for mule deer
than does a late hunt as bucks are extremely vulnerable during a late hunt and muzzleloader technology
has made these weapons considerably more accurate at longer ranges than was the case just a few years
ago. It is notable that most surrounding western states schedule the majority of muzzleloader seasons
prior to rifle seasons. In the event DWR would choose the late season option, tag quotas and harvest
success should be closely monitored. Any late hunt for mule deer should not be an over the counter
license, but rather a limited quota tag, closely monitored within management units.
Second, the length of rifle seasons must be reduced if you intend to maintain any semblance of a
productive deer herd. Allowing two 9-day hunts with the generally high tag allocation currently offered
is a recipe for disaster. Given current habitat conditions, deer population densities, struggling fawn
recruitment rates and projected hunting pressure and tag allocation practices, there is simply no way we
can reasonably expect to maintain any age-class diversity among the buck component of a deer herd with
such a liberal season structure. Further, there is no need for such a long season. In statistics I kept on
public hunter participation over a 6-year period in a controlled hunt setting in Colorado, we discovered
the following facts:
a. Regardless of legal season length, average hunter participation was 2.7 days for
residents, and 3.4 days for non-residents.
b. Over 92% of hunter participation occurred on consecutive days. Even when a season
structure included 2 weekends, over 96% of participants only hunted the first
weekend and did NOT return to try again the second weekend.
c. Harvest success was generally higher for non-residents than residents, which loosely
correlated to the longer average time spent afield.
My experience with public participation across numerous western states leads me to believe this data is
replicable on most standard seasons. Management implications are clear: regardless of what some vocal
sportsmen might say, their actions are quite consistent in that they do not have the desire nor stamina to
stay afield and hunt for more than 4 or 5 days at most. Any longer season is ?wasted? in the sense that
there is very low hunter participation and DWR staff and resources are stretched to provide law
enforcement over vast areas for longer periods with fewer and fewer legal hunters afield. This time would
be better allocated as a break between seasons to allow staff to rest, get one group of hunters out of the
field while another comes in to set up camp, and to allow game herds to settle down, feed and rest as well.
For example, in Colorado, CDOW experienced a host of complaints from local merchants, the hotel
industry, local government, public land management agencies and private landowners when hunts were
scheduled consecutively without a break. Breaks between seasons are particularly important in units
where large tracts of private land serve as refuges, hindering achievement of game management
objectives, and where conflicts between landowners and wildlife cause on-going problems for DWR. A
minimum of two days is required to accommodate the change of hunters afield and local merchants, and
3-5 days in the break is better yet for the animals.
Again, allowing rifle hunters two 9-days seasons is simply too long if DWR expects to maintain a
reasonably healthy buck/doe ratio and diverse age-class among the bucks. After lengthy discussions
among several very experienced hunters, we would propose the following season dates:
1.) Allow Limited-entry archery elk hunters to start hunting Aug 20th with the rest of
the archery hunters, and end that season Sept 24th.
2.) Start Limited-entry muzzleloader elk hunters on Sept 12th and end Sept 20th
3.) Start Limited entry rifle elk hunters Sept 15th and end Sept 24th
4.) Start general muzzleloader deer hunters Sept 26th and end Oct 2nd
5.) Start early rifle general deer hunters first Wednesday following the general
muzzleloader season (maintain a three day break between seasons), allow a 5-day
hunt for deer and a 12-day hunt for elk.
6.) Start general late-rifle deer hunt the first Wednesday following the completion of
the early rifle elk hunt and run for 7 consecutive days
7.) Limited-entry and late muzzleloader elk hunts to start Nov 1st
I understand DWR and the RAC?s will receive such a wide variety of comments on this issue that it will
be confusing and overwhelming. Assuredly, no single-interest will be completely happy with the final
result, but I maintain that the health of the deer and elk herds is the most important issue at stake. I
believe it is clear that hunters want to see healthy populations of animals, including appropriate buck/doe
ratios and age classes, so season structures must be such that hunter opportunity is balanced with habitat
security potential to allow some of these bucks to survive into older age classes. I would be happy to
discuss these issues with you in more detail. Please feel free to contact me at the number listed above.
Thank you for your time and attention to this matter.
Steve D.

 

[Muley_73]

regularjoe, I promise I do not have an answer for everything. I do usually have an opinion on most things, which could be a fault. I do not know all of the units that do not have deer move in until late. I know units like the Old Woman have very few deer in general and have to wait until late to get deer and elk to move onto their unit. I also know that if the Alton unit was not allowed to hunt until the normal dates that most of the deer if not all would be gone by the rifle hunt every year.

I think that there will be a push by some sportsmen this year to make changes that will focus on increasing herd numbers. I also believe that the DWR's proposals where to stir the pot and test the water on several issues (split seasons). The wildlife board makes the rules. The DWR just make recommendations, so do the sportsman and cattlemen and so forth. Yes generally the Wildlife board votes with what the DWR recommends, but not always! My faith does wane on the occasion, I guess that comes from having a father that served on the RAC and was very involved. The process eventually wore him down. But at one time the sportsmen even convinced the Board to try antler restriction, so I guess anything is possible. I will wait and see what the outcome is this year and keep my fingers crossed. I just believe the sportsman once again are starting to organize and make a push for change.