Elk and Deer Load

[OmegaMan]

Hello Everyone,

I am wondering if anyone has a load that they use for both elk and deer. It just seems that it would be much easier than having to figure out seperate ones.

This is my 1st year muzzy hunting... I am really looking forward to it!!!

 

[Rem308]

I am going on a muledeer/cow elk hunt and I have settled on 295 grain aero tip Powerbelt bullets and 90 grains of Triple 7 . If I was only hunting deer ,I would use the hollow point bullets 'but for the combo of cow elk I went with the aero tip.

 

[APBT]

Ditch the 295, that load is to hot for elk. Go with the 338 platinum or the 348g aerotip with 80 grains triple 7 "equal to 93 grains Pyrodex 2F.

Same for the original poster. It does not take massive amounts of powder to kill elk or deer. My omega will be going after elk with a 348 AT and 80g pyrodex select.

www.GandersPowerbeltForu.Powerguild.net

 

[hntbambi]

>It does not take massive
>amounts of powder to kill
>elk or deer. My
>omega will be going after
>elk with a 348 AT
>and 80g pyrodex select.

It all depends on the situation. Sure a 22 lr will kill a deer as dead as any magnum will under the right circumstances. If you have a front quartering shot and need to drive through the shoulder bones and tissue, yes, velocity will matter. Retained energy is necessary do drive an expanding bullet through mass. Yes, hard cast bullets will push through but there is not much energy transfer or hydrostatic shock transmitted to the soft tissue. That's why you can eat right up to the bullet hole.

My elk load will be using ~120 gr of BH209 and a 340 gr Dead Center. I like my bullets ~2000 fps. This gives decent trajectory and ample energy. What distance do you want to be able to shoot your elk? My requirements for an elk load are:
Accuracy - that shoots less than 5" at 250 yards
Trajectory - When sighted in 2" high at 100 yards, be less than 17" low at 250 yards (velocity/retained velocity)
Energy - packs at least 1500 ft/lbs of energy at 250 yards

For a combo load, pretty much any sabot 300 gr and up pushed by 90-150 gr of powder will work wonders. The Shockwave or SST in the 300 gr flavor will do the deed if you can use sabots. In stinky powder velocities they hold fairly well. They drop a bit more than some of the others but not too bad. The Barnes TMZ is another good bullet that will expand reliably and drive deep due to the retained bullet weight. My favorite bullets are the Precision Rifle QT or Dead Center bullets. Most importantly is to find a combo that shoots well for you. I had to try a lot of different bullets to find a combo that my Knight Disc Elite liked.

Personally, I have no use for Powerbelts. I have not been able to get them to shoot accurately enough to meet my standards at the velocity I want in any of my 6 muzzleloaders. No thanks. Some swear by them, I swear at them.

 

[APBT]

A 45-70 pushing a 405 grain bullet with 70 grains black powder would easily take buffalo out to 200 yards.

The 295g powerbelt with 90 grains triple7 is to light for elk and needs a heavier bullet! Simple as that.





www.GandersPowerbeltForu.Powerguild.net

 

[OmegaMan]

So in your opinion a 300gr TC Shockwave with two 50gr pyrodex pellets should be a sufficient load for both elk and deer? (assuming my gun likes that load of course)

 

[Rem308]

That depends. Are you talking a 600-700 pound bull elk,then I would go for the heavier bullet. I am looking for a 300 pound cow for the freezer,the 295 should work.
I have taken 3 bulls with the 348 hollow point Powerbelt and one with the 348 aero tip. I guess I can not see much difference.Either will work if you do your part and place the bullet where it counts.

 

[APBT]

Yes the 300 SW with 2 pellets is plenty.

the deal with powerbelts, they are pure lead "soft" the copper coating is the thickness of 2 sheets of paper, Its applied to the bullet to keep lead build up from forming. If you've ever shot all lead powerbelts you will see how easy your barrel leads up. With powerbelts you need to slow them down as pure lead with a hollow point is going to be a disaster if you push it to fast.

I shot a doe at 20 yards with a 385g hornady great plains conical HP and guess what? the bullet ripped almost in half and only penetrated one shoulder!


If you feel that 90grains triple7 with a 295g at is safe for elk, by all means, use it. I would rather be safe and take the heavier bullet.

www.GandersPowerbeltForu.Powerguild.net

 

[txhunter58]

Jim Shockey has used 100 grains of powder and a 300 grain bullet to take every North American game up to and including a polar bear. So yes, in my opinion, the 100 gr pyrodex and a 300 gr shockwave should be adequate.

However, I would personally never hunt an elk with a 295 powerbelt (possibly a 300 gr platinum, but not the 295 aerotip). In general, if you push a powerbelt too hard, or use a bullet below their 348 gr, the bullet has a track record of coming apart on impact. Personally, when I hunted elk with a powerbelt, I shot the 405 gr. and 95 gr. 777.

Comparing a 300 gr sabot to a 295 grain powerbelt is comparing apples and oranges. The sabots are generally build stronger to hold up to higher velocity impacts.

That said, aren't you hunting Colorado, at least for elk, where sabots are not legal?

If I were hunting elk and deer in Colorado (which I am) and expected some long shots on timberline bucks (which I am), then I would use the Hornady FPB (which I am)

After another good shooting session with my Omega and FPB's today, and thinking about the stuff I have read about how tough the FPB's should be, I am more and more thinking this is the ideal Colorado conical. That is of course, if you remove or cut off the tip so it is legal to use in Colorado.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[OmegaMan]

Thanks for the info so far guys. I'm new to muzzleloaders so this is very helpful.

I have really only considered sabots up to this point. What are the pro's and con's between sabots and Powerbelts?

 

[OmegaMan]

Great info!

Actually I'll be hunting in Utah where sabots are legal.

Thanks

 

[APBT]

The 270g platinum is a hell of a lot stronger than the 295 surprisingly! I'd use the 300 for elk with 80 to 90g triple 7. But this year i want to try the 348 as i can get them locally.

www.GandersPowerbeltForu.Powerguild.net

 

[txhunter58]

For Utah, I would definitely go with a 300 grain sabot built to hold together better than all lead conicals.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[hntbambi]

Same here. I would definately take the 300 gr sabot over any conical. Another benefit of the sabot is a higher ballistic coefficient (BC). This is the bullets ability to resist interference by the atmosphere. A higher BC means the bullet is more aerodynamic. A .45 caliber diameter 300 gr bullet will have a higher BC than a .50 caliber diameter 300 gr bullet. This higher BC will allow it to retain more energy downrange than the larger diameter bullet.

Another benefit of the smaller diameter, equal weight bullet, is sectional density (SD). This is the length to width ratio. A higher SD bullet will penetrate deeper than a bullet of equal weigh, and makeup.

Comparing bullet statistics (energy, velocity) at the muzzle, means little. I don't know about you but I have not had the opportunity to take game at muzzle distance, so it means nothing to me. Compare the bullets at 100+ yards and the truth will show. A larger 348 or 400 gr conical will be behind the 300 or 350 gr sabot.

 

[APBT]

Jee, The days of picking out a bullet and shooting are done. Got to know bc,dc,ac/dc, ect. All because thats what the magazine writers say.


www.GandersPowerbeltForu.Powerguild.net

 

[Spartacus]

I use 150 grains of Pyro pellets with Barnes MZ Expanders.

Clocked at 2100 fps.

Maybe a little over kill on deer but it's dropped over one I shot at.

 

[txhunter58]

"A larger 348 or 400 gr conical will be behind the 300 or 350 gr sabot."

That is probably true if you only look at foot lbs. Ft. lbs is nothing more than a mathmatical formula which has its limits to compare loads. It makes smaller, fast bullets ALWAYS look better, when we know that big, slower moving bullets kill very effectively. After all, you could make a 50 grain bullet look as good as a 300 gr in ft/lbs. if you got it moving fast enough, but no one would use it for elk.

And big slow moving bullets have been having devestating knockdown power for a long time.

Take a look at another mathmatical formula to compare so called "knock down" power.

http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/July02.htm

Sabots are better for several reasons, but the only real big advantage is that they are built better. They stand up to higher velocity impacts and plow through an animal without coming apart.

If you put a pure lead bullet in a sabot and compare it to a bigger pure lead full bore conical, I would chose the bigger bullet. The reason the sabot rules is because you can buy a 300 grain that holds up to hitting an elk at high speeds without coming apart.



txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[Frontier]

What hntbambi says is absolutely true, you cannot argue with basic physics. I live in Idaho where it is required to shoot conicals or round balls, and personally I like the rule because it will limit the distance at which you can take game effectivally, hopefully hunters are responsible and understand the limitations of all their weapons. If I lived in Utah and could use a scope,"I don't know if you're allowed to," I would probably use a sabot to increase the distance of being able to take game. If you have to use open sights then you really cannot take advantage of the extra energy that is retained in a sabot. A larger hole kills animals faster as long as it penetrates all the way through the animal and with open sight distances that will usually be the case with a good bullet. At farther distances, 150 to 200 yds and beyond the conical will most likely loose enough energy to not be able to push all the way through an elk, where as a 300 grain sabot will probably still have enough. My opinion, if you can find a 350 grain sabot, that shoots well out of your gun, thats even better.

 

[Rem308]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-08 AT 06:10PM (MST)[p]There has been alot of deer and elk taken with a patched round ball,I would think anything mentioned would be better than the old round ball.
The elk I have taken with the Powerbelt,3 went 30-50 yards and then hit the ground ,the other one went about 1/4 mile. These were all small bulls in Colorado.Some animals just have a will to live more than others I guess.
All the deer that I have shot that I can remember ,was with the 295 or 348 hollow point.Most of them does and most of them thru the lungs with a complete pass thru.I have heard alot about Powerbelt bullet seperation,but that has not been my case.

 

[APBT]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-08 AT 08:18PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-08 AT 06:45 PM (MST)

If the elk that went a 1/4 mile was shot with the 348, i'd say that should be a REAL eye opener, NOT to use the smaller 295.

www.GandersPowerbeltForu.Powerguild.net

 

[txhunter58]

"My opinion, if you can find a 350 grain sabot, that shoots well out of your gun, thats even better. "

That is why the 350 grain Hornady FPB CONICAL is looking good to me for Colorado. Check out the ballistics on it. Doesn't lag behind sabots as much as in the past, and it appears that it will hold up to higher velocities.

And, with an appropriately well constructed bullet traveling fast enough, anything over 250 is probably big enough, and yet you would choose a 350 over a 250? Probably because even at sabot speeds, they are relatively slow moving compared to a 30-06. And the slower the bullet, the bigger it has to be to compensate. Just physics.

On one thing most of use will agree on, sabots will extend your range.

But until I get picked for a Utah tag, I am stuck having to use a full bore conical, and about 150 yards is the longest I am willing to take, bigger is better.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[Rem308]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-08 AT 08:13PM (MST)[p]Here in Michigan where sabots are legal I have been trying out the Hornady 300 grain xtp sabot.Mostly because I like to practice shooting alot and the Powerbelts are getting to expensive.
I am getting good accuracy with the XTP.Might use this load for a black bear hunt .
If legal I think this would be a good bullet for elk.

 

[hntbambi]

Nope, it's more because I am an engineer. I have not read a guns magazine in a few years. There are very few gun writers that I have any respect for these days. Dang sure goes for the hunting "celebs" that are on the tube.

There is always room for improvement. Using something that "will do" will not fit my bill. Since tags are very hard to come by, and seasons are short, I want to be ready for whatever gets thrown at me. If I have to shoot a hard frontal quartering shot at 200 yards, I want to know I can do it as well as my load can do it. Sure, I would love to get within 50 yards and have the bull perfectly sideways, 30 years of hunting has taught me that does not always happen. I was a Boy Scout, I am prepared.

 

[hntbambi]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-08 AT 08:14PM (MST)[p]"And big slow moving bullets have been having devestating knockdown power for a long time.

Take a look at another mathmatical formula to compare so called "knock down" power."

This so called knock down power does not exist. There is no shoulder fired rifle you can carry in the woods that will knock down a deer let alone an elk. It's physically impossible, well unless you are Hollywood making a movie.

The same with your 50 gr comparison, you can not get a 50 gr bullet going fast enough to get 1500 ft of energy at 200 or 250 yards. So, while you are trying to throw extremes into this conversation, its not totally correct. If I could use my Savage ML with smokeless, you bet I would be using a 200 gr bullet for elk. I would be using custom made sabots to hold a .338 Scirocco bullet fired in a .45 caliber barrel. It is very close to .338 Win Mag performance from a front stuffer. So, yes, if the velocity is high enough and the bullet construction is tough enough, you can indeed use a lighter bullet very successfully.

 

[hntbambi]

The drawback to the XTP is its retained velocity down range. Its a flying brick. I use them in my Savage for practice and load development as out to 100 yards, they fly like the SST/SW bullets but are a lot cheaper. When they get pushed to centerfire speeds, they act like varmint bullets on deer though. The Mag version is ok but when you get a longer range shot they act like a solid. Kind of the worst of everything. Accuracy wise, they are great though.

 

[Rem308]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-08 AT 05:21AM (MST)[p]I shot a couple of deer a few years ago with the 240 grain XTP,but never shot more than 50-60 yards.
I agree that they would not be a long range bullet,but the 300 grain mag should be good out to about a 100 yards.
I am one that would not make a shot much over that anyway. Using open sights I cannot be accurate enough at long range to be assured of a good hit.
The elk that were taken with the powerbelt 's were all close ,30-40 yard shots.All lung shots.The bullets did there job.Elk are tough animals and can go a long ways with even a fatal wound from a center fire rife.The best thing is after a shot and hit ,do not immediatly go after the animal,but give him a few minutes to lay and die.A muzzleloader will do the job ,but few elk ever drop on the spot from a hit.

 

[OmegaMan]

Thanks for everyone's input. This has been very informative and helpful.

I think that I am going to start out shooting the 300gr Shockwave and 100gr pelleted Pyrodex, and see how well I can group.

 

[OmegaMan]

Finally got out and shot the smokepole yesterday. I shot a 300gr SW with 100gr pyrro. I was very happy with the results. At 115 yrds I was able to group about 6" or so with open sites. That may not be great for you pro's but for the 1st time shooting my muzzy, I was very happy with it. A little more practice and I should be able to tighten it up a bit.

 

[hntbambi]

Way to go OmegaMan! Some more range time and your groups should shrink some more. Welcome to the world of muzzleloading.

 

[txhunter58]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-31-08 AT 08:49PM (MST)[p]Good going! If it were me, next time I went out I would shoot 3 shot groups with 95, 100, 105, and 110 grains. See which grouped the best, then go from there. Once I get my sights in the general area, I usualy go out to about 50 yards to see how they group, then extend the range. With 777, my personal max powder charge used is 100 grains, but with pyro I would consider a max of 110.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[OmegaMan]

Thanks guys.

I haven't started pouring my own powder yet, but I guess I could by the 30gr pellets to expiriment couldn't I?

I started out shooting at 60yrds and I was grouping even better, and of course the further I got out the looser the group got.

I'll need to get a rest to site in a red dot if I want one, but I think I prefer the open sights... Any thoughts on that?

 

[txhunter58]

If I were hunting Utah, I would be shooting with a scope (I think 1X is legal?) Then I would try my best to practice enough to feel comfortable out to 200 yards. There is no way I would ever feel comfortable at that range with a peep sight. There are many who are, and power to them, but just not me.

Whether you use open sights or a scope, a good shooting bench and a good sandbag set up to work up your loads is essential.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[OmegaMan]

Yeah, 1X is legal in Utah.

When I was shooting the other day, I did have a good bench to shoot no but sandbags.

200 yards? I'll have to give it a try. I do have excellent eye sight, but like you, I'm not sure how accurate I would be. I imagine the drop increases significantly at that range. I guess that's why we practice huh?

 

[UTHNTR]

i use 120 grains of loose pyrodex and 250 grain hornady sst sabots