EXPO RIGGED

2LUMPY,

Your example of tax money is not even close to relevant. Here's why. People are asking to see where the monies go not what the salaried employees of SFW are doing with their salaries. We can actually get a great idea of where our tax monies go by looking at government budgets not by criticizing salaries of government employees. All people are asking is a breakdown of where the monies go. If $300k go to peoples salaries for running the show, great. Then 3.4 million to habitat great. Another .5 million for expenses....awesome....good to know. Has nothing to do with personal lives and what people are eating for dinner.

Next time think your examples through a little better before posting up. :) Thanks.
 
It's called a GRAMA request.... All one has to do is submit one to the DWR. They have no choice but to give you what you request. Seems like last year when I asked for a copy of the audit I was told that there has never been one... Like I said only in Utah... Go Figure
 
>I've spent a lot of time
>with "Mr. Bair", and if
>there is anybody that deserves
>to win a "rigged drawing"
>it's him.
>John DONATES more time, energy, and
>effort to the sport you
>whiners claim to love than
>most people put forth in
>their PAYING jobs. I'm glad
>to see him get it.
>
>
>Chan
No one deserves the tag more than anyone else. Everyone's 5 bucks for each tag should be equal. Whether you donate 50 hours a week to wildlife, cheat on your wife, or fart in full elevators, we should all be equal in this thing. No one deserves it but the lucky SOB's that beat the odds. Its BECAUSE he puts so much time, energy and effort into the sport makes him more suspect that something is fishy. I hope it was luck, but my eyebrow is raised.
 
>It's called a GRAMA request.... All
>one has to do is
>submit one to the DWR.
>They have no choice but
>to give you what you
>request. Seems like last year
>when I asked for a
>copy of the audit I
>was told that there has
>never been one... Like I
>said only in Utah... Go
>Figure


+1

Badges, we don't need no stinkin' badges. We protect Utah's wildlife. Now feed me some more tags and stop whining and being so bothersome. I have real work to do and no time for silly questions like where did the money go that was raised selling your, er, the tags. Now, scram you no good varmit.
 
What I would like to see is the actual funding from all these banquets and expos. How much is actually earned for the state and for the wildlife. How do we know what percentage of the earnings from anything is going back to the state when we can't find out how many hunters entered for each hunt and how much money they make. It's OUR tags that these organizations are using, they're "non-profit", again IF THERE IS NOTHING TO HIDE why not let people see. It would end all the doubt and arguments.
 
It's rigged! Why don't all of you that think SFW guys walk on water and deserve these tags for all their hard work, get over it! You've really got your head in the sand if you think a rigged draw is above these people. There is politics EVERYWHERE in life! It may very well have been unknown to John. That doesn't mean these people don't look out for each other. I have personally witnessed John pull is own name out of bucket for a prize at a banquet. It was pathetic to watch his rection to the draw.
As far as the drawing process goes, we live in a time when huge amounts of data can be processed within seconds. Why is it that it takes a week for results to be posted? They could easily have the results available by the time most people get home from the damn expo!
 
>>On February 16th 2010 the drawing
>>for the 200 permits for
>>the Western Hunting & Conservation
>>Expo was conducted at the
>>Utah Division of Wildlife Resources
>>in Salt Lake City, Utah.
>>Start time of the draw
>>was 12:11pm and finished at
>>1:06pm on February 16th, 2010.
>>Those in attendance and witnessed
>>the drawing procedure included: Greg
>>Evans, IT Supervisor-DWR ? Kirk
>>Poulson, Database Analyst-DWR ? Kenneth
>>Johnson, Business Analyst-DWR ? Steve
>>Harward, Systems Analyst-DWR ? Lindy
>>Varney, Account Tech-DWR ? Ryan
>>Foutz, WHCE Drawing Coordinator ?
>>Justin Lucast, Software Consultant ?
>>Rob Gray, Graysky Technologies.
>>
>>Are you calling the people identified
>>in this list liars, cheats,
>>or crooks? If not,
>>what exactly you calling them?
>> If you have the
>>Snickers to call the drawing
>>rigged, do you have the
>>courage to say or infer
>>these folks are guilty of
>>fraud? I drew a
>>tag last year and you
>>damn well better be careful
>>what kind of brush you
>>paint the winners with.
>>If you got proof, you
>>better get it out here,
>>if you don't.....................who's integrity is
>>in question?
>>
>>DC
>
>
>I for one did not call
>anyone who drew a tag
>in this drawing a cheat.
>
>
>I am however just responding to
>your post. You forgot one
>thing. The division has been
>caught with their hand in
>the cookie jar once before
>and that is why the
>drawing is now held in
>Nevada.
>
>
>
4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

>Archery is a year round commitment!!
>
Swbuckmaster, give me some more details about the division being caught with there hand in the cookie jar.
 
What was Swbuckmaster talking about when he says the division has already been caught with there hand in the cookie jar once before?
 
My opinion............ its fishy! They need to draw by hand! Not by some computer program or whatever they are using. Just my 2 cents.
 
Go read the last issue of teh Sportsman's Voice. I wrote a 4 page article about the history and all teh conservation efforts by SFW and Utah FNAWS in Rattlesnake and Desolation Canyon.

IN the past two months, Montana has lost over 1,500 bighorns - DEAD - to pasturella disease, and that is hundreds of lost hunting opportunities as it will take 15 years or more to rebuild these herds if, ever.

Nevada has lost two herds, and Washington ONE. And, unforunately, Utah the Goslin herd is loosing sheep. This hunt will now NOT open and teh DWR is telling everyone who applied to apply somewhere else.

The cause is contact with domestic sheep, Pausturella, Hymolitica Type A.

without SFW and Utah FNAWS, Desolation CAnyon most likely has ZERO bighorns, as we have bought out 5 domestic sheep allotments and invested over $650,000 in this unit.

As is, nearly 20 hunters will get to hunt this REMARKABLE unit.

I have spent 6 months of my life working on this unit, it is the place i go ever November 16 to spend my birthday, watching these sheep. These herds are a TREASURE for utah and all Americans. they didn't just fall out of the sky, trasnplant stock has come from Canada, Wyoming, Colorado and Montana. a HUGE AMOUNT of work by DWR and SFW and Utah FANWS members as well to keep them there.

In addition to the Expo tags, WE GAVE AWAY another 16 Dall and Stone sheep hunts in Drawings. The winners were all working class folks, who had drawn a sheep tag somewhere in the WEST, and NOW 16 of them get their dream of the Stone or Dall hunt. The haters should have been there.

Next year, it will be 32 sheep hunts. tom Mower gave $100,000 to allow me to buy hunts to give away next year to all the working folks, and lots more "rich guys" have stepped up.

One day, as i told the people at the meeting, i want to give away 50 sheep hutns a year from Alaska, BC, NWT, Yukon, etc. to all teh good folks who come to teh Expo. Just read some notes from teh winners, they are EXCITED !

If SFW was going to "RIG" the draw, why the heck would Bair get the tag? Byron Bateman, SFW President just needs a desert to finish his full curl, and both me and my son were in for Rattlesnake, we didnt' draw !

Congratulations to John, he is a small town rural kid, an Electrician who cares about the future of wildlfie and has done a lot to increase herds for all sportsmen throughout the west and Alaska.

Do you all know Dall sheep populations are down 50% in Alaska, Bighorn sheep populatoins are down 60% in Idaho, and Stone sheep populaitons are down 50%.

Contrasting, when we started Utah FNAWS and SFW, Utah had about 500 wild sheep. we had just lost over 600 sheep and 20 tags a year in teh San Jaun units - domestic sheep disease catostrophic die off. NOrth San Juan has NEVER come back.

today, utah has close to 5,000 total sheep.

Like us or not, SFW and Utah FNAWS are MAJOR reasons why Utah sheep herds are up nearly 1000%. And without STRONG SPORSMEN GROUPs, many other states are down 50% or more.

Congrats John, thanks for all you do.

IN fact, we have two more domestic sheep buyouts to do, or one day all teh Desolation Canyon sheep are dead - 1,000 dead bighorns, then what are the haters going to say - Good, now nobody gets a tag ?

SFW and Utah FNAWS are working on those last two time bombs, and prevent them from going off.

Thanks to all who came and supported teh Expo.

YOur conservation dollars are already being invested this week to increase bison herds in teh Book Cliffs and Henry Mountains, for bighorn shepe, and mule deer and elk habitat.
 
I am a lucky guy also...however it appears that somethings on!
odds are just incomprehendable!
4a2c3c3419e430ad.jpg


rackmaster
 
You danced around the questions that have been posed about the "rigged" draw pretty well. You only supported the idea even more about how some people deserve tags like Bair because of all they have done to help wildlife and the herds. I am sorry that all you SFW guys have suucchh a haarrd jooobb. And how would have that looked to the rest of us "loafers" if you are your son drew the sheep tag?
 
Yet still no answer as to why SFW doesn't open their books. Just some more back patting. That's awesome you're spending all that money on sheep, an animal that 99% of us will never be able to hunt. Oh and by the way Peay, you can take those 100 additional elk tags that you want to take from the public and brib er I mean give to cattle ranchers and shove them up your...........
 
RULE #1.....NO PERSONS AFFILIATED WITH THE SFW EXPO WILL BE ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE IN THE DRAW/RAFFLE HUNTS. THIS IS WRONG ON SEVERAL LEVELS......PERIOD !!! ALSO.....LETS NOT LET THE SFW EXPO SPILL OUT INTO ANY OTHER STATES.......UTAH NEEDS TO ENJOY ALL THE FUN/ PAIN IT PROVIDES......IF ANY..........YD.
 
>John is a good guy and
>a guy people would generally
>pull for to draw tags
>like this but IMO, anyone
>in a position like that
>with MDF/SFW flat out shouldn't
>be in the draw.
>SFW manages the drawing with
>the DWR and to have
>the SFW chairman pull a
>coveted sheep tag or any
>tag potentially hurts the integrity
>of the drawing. Why
>do that?
>
>Legit or not, I think you
>got it right. Usually
>people in that position are
>ineligible. It's like going
>to Vegas and watching the
>casino president walk down, pull
>the slot machine and hit
>millions of dollars.


+1, every other sweepstakes/drawing it states that employees or there families are not eligible. I don't think it is rigged, but if Ed McMahon won the Publishers Clearinghouse rigged or not it would look that way. Any payed or compensated SWF or DWR employee shouldn't be eligible.
 
>Go read the last issue of
>teh Sportsman's Voice. I
>wrote a 4 page article
>about the history and all
>teh conservation efforts by SFW
>and Utah FNAWS in Rattlesnake
>and Desolation Canyon.
>
>IN the past two months, Montana
>has lost over 1,500 bighorns
>- DEAD - to pasturella
>disease, and that is hundreds
>of lost hunting opportunities as
>it will take 15 years
>or more to rebuild these
>herds if, ever.
>
>Nevada has lost two herds, and
>Washington ONE. And, unforunately,
>Utah the Goslin herd is
>loosing sheep. This hunt
>will now NOT open and
>teh DWR is telling everyone
>who applied to apply somewhere
>else.
>
>The cause is contact with domestic
>sheep, Pausturella, Hymolitica Type A.
>
>
>without SFW and Utah FNAWS, Desolation
>CAnyon most likely has ZERO
>bighorns, as we have bought
>out 5 domestic sheep allotments
>and invested over $650,000 in
>this unit.
>
>As is, nearly 20 hunters will
>get to hunt this REMARKABLE
>unit.
>
>I have spent 6 months of
>my life working on this
>unit, it is the place
>i go ever November 16
>to spend my birthday, watching
>these sheep. These herds
>are a TREASURE for utah
>and all Americans. they
>didn't just fall out of
>the sky, trasnplant stock has
>come from Canada, Wyoming, Colorado
>and Montana. a HUGE
>AMOUNT of work by DWR
>and SFW and Utah FANWS
>members as well to keep
>them there.
>
>In addition to the Expo tags,
>WE GAVE AWAY another 16
>Dall and Stone sheep hunts
>in Drawings. The winners
>were all working class folks,
>who had drawn a sheep
>tag somewhere in the WEST,
>and NOW 16 of them
>get their dream of the
>Stone or Dall hunt.
>The haters should have been
>there.
>
>Next year, it will be 32
>sheep hunts. tom Mower
>gave $100,000 to allow me
>to buy hunts to give
>away next year to all
>the working folks, and lots
>more "rich guys" have stepped
>up.
>
>One day, as i told the
>people at the meeting, i
>want to give away 50
>sheep hutns a year from
>Alaska, BC, NWT, Yukon, etc.
>to all teh good folks
>who come to teh Expo.
> Just read some notes
>from teh winners, they are
>EXCITED !
>
>If SFW was going to "RIG"
>the draw, why the heck
>would Bair get the tag?
> Byron Bateman, SFW
>President just needs a desert
>to finish his full curl,
>and both me and my
>son were in for Rattlesnake,
>we didnt' draw !
>
>Congratulations to John, he is a
>small town rural kid, an
>Electrician who cares about the
>future of wildlfie and has
>done a lot to increase
>herds for all sportsmen throughout
>the west and Alaska.
>
>Do you all know Dall sheep
>populations are down 50% in
>Alaska, Bighorn sheep populatoins are
>down 60% in Idaho, and
>Stone sheep populaitons are down
>50%.
>
>Contrasting, when we started Utah FNAWS
>and SFW, Utah had about
>500 wild sheep. we
>had just lost over 600
>sheep and 20 tags a
>year in teh San Jaun
>units - domestic sheep disease
>catostrophic die off. NOrth
>San Juan has NEVER come
>back.
>
>today, utah has close to 5,000
>total sheep.
>
>Like us or not, SFW and
>Utah FNAWS are MAJOR reasons
>why Utah sheep herds are
>up nearly 1000%. And
>without STRONG SPORSMEN GROUPs, many
>other states are down 50%
>or more.
>
>Congrats John, thanks for all you
>do.
>
>IN fact, we have two more
>domestic sheep buyouts to do,
>or one day all teh
>Desolation Canyon sheep are dead
>- 1,000 dead bighorns, then
>what are the haters going
>to say - Good, now
>nobody gets a tag ?
>
>
>SFW and Utah FNAWS are working
>on those last two time
>bombs, and prevent them from
>going off.
>
>Thanks to all who came and
>supported teh Expo.
>
>YOur conservation dollars are already being
>invested this week to increase
>bison herds in teh Book
>Cliffs and Henry Mountains, for
>bighorn shepe, and mule deer
>and elk habitat.


Damn, dude, hope you don't dislocate something trying to pat yourself on the back! Anyone outside Utah, if they try to move into your state, do whatever you can to stop it!
 
I personally worked the both where people filed out there drawing sheet for the tags they wanted to buy a chance on for over 200 hunts.50-75% of the people I helped over a 3 day period only bought chances on hunts/units they were familiar with. I didn't see one person buy the max on any sheet. Further more, I saw John Bair step away from the registration booth with a receipt of the hunts he bought chances on. John Bairs receipt was about 4 feet long. If you want to win a hunt, buy as many chances as you can. (FYI) Dont have your wife standing over your shoulder watching and complaining about how many hunts you bought chances on, If she does not agree with your hunting habits. I cant believe how mant times I saw husbad and wife argueing over how many hunts one wanted to purchase. I can assure everyone with as much MONEY exchanging hands down there, now one affilated with the Expo is going to do anything underhanded. They would have those 200 tags taken away from them by the DWR. In turn the Expo would be over. Be grateful of the opportunity given to you. Nathan Adams
 
>Can anyone point me to the
>2008 or 2009 tax forms
>for SFW? Here is
>a link to the 2007
>form-
>
>http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990_pdf_archive/870/870528711/870528711_200712_990O.pdf
>
>And the federal law that says
>this is public information-
>http://www.muridae.com/publicaccess/
>
>Thanks

The 2008 is not available. I'm sure 2009 has not been finished yet.

http://nccsdataweb.urban.org/PubApps/showVals.php?ft=bmf&ein=870575540

http://nccsdataweb.urban.org/PubApps/showVals.php?ft=bmf&ein=870528711
 
The bottom line is if you're involved in anyway with the drawing, or the show, you should not be allowed to put in. I love how you act like you've done sooooo much more than everybody else in the preservation of wildlife, don't get me wrong, we do appreciate everything you do, but all sportsmen play a large part in the development of a stronger herd.
It's a conflict of interest for you to be able to draw these tags. That's the bottom line, and the fact that you continue to draw these tags, just raises more red flags. I'm not saying that it's rigged, I'm just saying that you shouldn't be able to put in for them. I think most would agree with that.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-10 AT 01:26PM (MST)[p]Responding to Workenman's argument, which only supports everybody's suspicions. I'm sure all those guys hand-picking which tags they want, instead of buying all the hunts, are not picking turkey tags. Everybody who tries to draw a tag goes in for the good hunts, yet "special people" seem to get these tags each year. The odds on these hunts are much higher than the lesser cow buffalo or turkey tag. By the way I buy the whole package each time, as well as most my friends and brothers. I think you're down playing the amount of people who go there and put in for all the hunts.
I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why the process can't be policed a lot better, even after Don's excuses. Who cares about sheep in Alaska, Canada, Idaho, blah blah blah. If all this money is going to bring 20 sheep into the state of Utah to open a great hunt to a half dozen lucky hunters, usually with tons of money, then I say we're getting hosed more than I thought. Seems like our deer and elk are the currency being used by SFW to buy exotics which most Utahns will never hunt nor have any desire to do so.
 
So according to the 2007 tax return, SFW spent $8,600 on big game feeding. Wow, I hope Denny Austed can send another check so we can buy a few more alfalfa pellets for the sheep on the Rattlesnake.
 
>The bottom line is if you're
>involved in anyway with the
>drawing, or the show, you
>should not be allowed to
>put in. I love
>how you act like you've
>done sooooo much more than
>everybody else in the preservation
>of wildlife, don't get me
>wrong, we do appreciate everything
>you do, but all sportsmen
>play a large part in
>the development of a stronger
>herd.
>It's a conflict of interest for
>you to be able to
>draw these tags. That's
>the bottom line, and the
>fact that you continue to
>draw these tags, just raises
>more red flags. I'm
>not saying that it's rigged,
>I'm just saying that you
>shouldn't be able to put
>in for them. I
>think most would agree with
>that.


So your saying if I go to the expo and give my time to help out in a booth an aution or a banquet I shouldn't be able to put in? I guess if you work for the government you shouldn't be able to vote anymore either. Amazing....
 
Enough is Enough! I have proof the expo drawing is rigged...how do I know? Cause 90% of the 200 "open" tags this year were won by people from Utah. Apparently us non-residents who are stupid enough to buy year after year are obviously through some super-secret software shenanigans tossed to the wolves (so to speak) with a hidden SFW or MDF program code that insures non-residents will only be allowed to draw one of every ten tags...the other 90% have to go to folks from Utah. I mean, what other conclusion can there be?

Remember, with randomness you don't always end up with a logical result or conclusion. Think about this year's Super Bowl...for the 18th year in a row, the home team that called the coin toss, won the coin toss. And the odds of the home team calling and winning the toss are the same every year 50 - 50. I'm guessing that 18 years ago you could have taken a bet that would have placed that result at about one million to one. Sounds like some staid MMers in hearing that about the Super Bowl would argue that obviousy the guy flipping the coin was on the home teams's payroll, the flip was too low, the coin was weighted or magnetized or the turf where the coin came to rest had an invisible velco strip under it. Go figure.

And even though I might have a second cousin that works for the SFW, I still can't get drawn. With Utah residents getting 90% of the tags, I just can't understand the whining. Congrats to all the winners of the random drawing...even John Bair.
 
BOTTOM LINE IS... ONLY 195 GUYS WILL BE HAPPY WITH THE EXPO DRAW.

YES,I KNOW THERE WERE 200 PLUS TAGS, BUT I FIGURE AT LEAST 5

GUYS WILL STILL #####...
 
"RULE #1.....NO PERSONS AFFILIATED WITH THE SFW EXPO WILL BE ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE IN THE DRAW/RAFFLE HUNTS. THIS IS WRONG ON SEVERAL LEVELS......PERIOD !!! ALSO.....LETS NOT LET THE SFW EXPO SPILL OUT INTO ANY OTHER STATES.......UTAH NEEDS TO ENJOY ALL THE FUN/ PAIN IT PROVIDES......IF ANY..........YD."

Since Utah has hurt your feelings, and provided so much "PAIN",
you should really consider not applying as a NR. I am sure things are better managed in your own home state LOL....

Please PM me your home phone number and when we get another bad
winter here in Northern Utah, I will call and solicit $$$$ from you in order to feed our starving deer herd.

Since UDWR doesn't always feed them, I am sure you would sleep better by helping out,right?????
 
Wait, what was that about the McDonalds's Monopoly game? Hmmm...McDonalds would not want to shoot itself in the foot nor would the subcontractor that had the multi-million dollar contract with McDonalds to design the games and distribute the game peices? Yet, even with all the incentive for both organizations to not become corrupted...the Monopoly game got rigged for several years. Somebody mentioned the SLC Olympic games...no one there would want to shoot themselves in the foot.

One software coder is all it takes to rig an electronic drawing. Those programs are 10,000s of line of code long with subroutines. You could put 20 honest men in a room to stare at the screen as the draw results are generated...does not mean a thing.

Seriously, along the line of reasoning that the ends justifies everything, you should not question why Al Gore flies around in a gas-guzzling plane telling kids to change out light bulbs at their home. After all, Al is trying to get us less reliant on foregn oil. If you do not support Al Gore then let me know your home phone number so I can call you the next time an IED needs defused.

SFW does some wonderful things. Does that give them a pass to get 200 public tags, hide the draw results, and hide the detail of cash in and cash out? Perhaps. I prefer more accountability and transparency plus less appearance that there is self-dealing going on with the Expo.
 
Don,

what ever happened to the original reason that sfw was started? It was for the average Joe hunter. Now it seems it caters to the 10 percent of guys with the most money. I think all of the so called whiners might even hop on board with sfw if there was total transparancy in something as simple as draw odds on a hunt drawing and where their (my) money would go if they joined sfw. And not just part of my money, but every cent. These tags are free to sfw and the public pays for them. Just open it up and you would be surprised how much support you would gain. Plain and simple. When can we expect to see the numbers? The average Joe's are waiting for a straight answer...plain and simple.

Thanks,

copple2
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-10
>AT 01:26?PM (MST)
>
>Responding to Workenman's argument, which only
>supports everybody's suspicions. I'm
>sure all those guys hand-picking
>which tags they want, instead
>of buying all the hunts,
>are not picking turkey tags.
> Everybody who tries to
>draw a tag goes in
>for the good hunts, yet
>"special people" seem to get
>these tags each year.
>The odds on these hunts
>are much higher than the
>lesser cow buffalo or turkey
>tag. By the way
>I buy the whole package
>each time, as well as
>most my friends and brothers.
> I think you're down
>playing the amount of people
>who go there and
>put in for all the
>hunts.
>I'm still waiting for an explanation
>as to why the process
>can't be policed a lot
>better, even after Don's excuses.
> Who cares about sheep
>in Alaska, Canada, Idaho, blah
>blah blah. If all
>this money is going to
>bring 20 sheep into the
>state of Utah to open
>a great hunt to a
>half dozen lucky hunters, usually
>with tons of money, then
>I say we're getting hosed
>more than I thought.
>Seems like our deer and
>elk are the currency being
>used by SFW to buy
>exotics which most Utahns will
>never hunt nor have any
>desire to do so.

Hardhorn, lets not compare cow buffalo with turkeys.
 
I remember years ago when the McDonalds Monopoly game came out I had a buddy that worked at a Mickey D's. He would get tons of winning game pieces just from pulling them off the fry boxes and drink cups that customers left behind on the tables. He would give us all the winning pieces. So I guess there's lots of ways to cheat but I don't think we ever got anything more than Big Macs, Fries and cokes. Maybe he kept the million dollar winning game pieces.
 
You Utards are spoiled...come to Oregon and then #####...Oregon used to have the 2nd largest population of elk and muley deer in the country...now both are pretty lame examples of game management. Almost as lame as the Nukers on MM.

HK
 
I finally posted on another related thread but the essence of that post was:

1. I am not a Utah resident nor have I been to the EXPO or purchased raffle tickets.

2. The raffle and the money trail should be transparent as possible including the options of having a "third" party run the raffle. The money trail could and should be audited and likely it is. If not that is a mistake.

3. Should volunteers be eligible for the draw? Absolutely. Most groups wouldn't function without them. Should paid staff members? Initially I would say no but I don't really know enough about the system. In other states though they have been eligible and as mentioned there have been some problems. That is why a "third" party might be helpful. If the draw is pereceived in anyway to not be ligit then this debate will continue on and rightfully so.

Many good points on these threads but the one that stands out is make the draw transparent and make the money trail transparent. End the rhetoric and help wildlife.
 
It's not just an expo thing. I have doubts with more of what is going on with SFW. They have too much say in what should be a state process. Is there a way anybody can find out how many tags are given out each year that are separate from the public drawings? I'm meaning banquets, auctions, expos, etc.
 
I don't have a dog in this fight but it is a terrible business practice to let board members and paid employees of SFW be eligible for the drawings.EVERY company I know of that runs a contest,giveaway,or raffle has that rule. Why? It avoids the very problem illustrated by this thread.

I am flabbergasted Don Peay is eligible.What if he drew a sheep tag? The harm to his organization would be tremendous-he should know better.
 
Not only should that apply to board members and paid employees, but also their immediate family members!
 
So we take 540 tags out of the draw. I have 8 points and have been putting in for Henry's archery. I'm in a group of 91 other people yet to draw. And at 3 bonus tags, can you do the math how long this is going to take? 30ish years! I won't even be able to pull a bow back when I'm that old, and the unit might not even be worth hunting then. YEah, and most people don't have the big $$$$ to buy their dream tags. They hope for a shot one day to hunt a great unit like the henry's. Look at the rifle odds. They're progressively getting worse and worse. It's going to take 80 years for some people to draw. Why are these tags being given out and not put in the draw?
 
Mr P loves to tell the popular myth that domestic sheep are a threat to wild sheep. "This is the myth that rallies the troops and brings in money. But,without the myth,no money would flow into the coffers." There is a very good article in the winter 2010 issue of Range magazine about a wild bighorn ram that had wandered on Hank Vogler's sheep ranch and lived with his domestic sheep for several years before the NDOW killed the ram for fear that the myth might be dispelled. An autopsy indicated "clean lungs.There was a lesion or two from host specific lungworms,a nose bot or two,but Mr. Chin died of a gunshot wound administered by his caretakers."(the NDOW) To where does Mr.P credit the decline of Dall sheep? There are no domestic sheep in Alaska. And can anyone even imagine if the 400,000 plus a year head of the NRA Wayne LaPiere won a big prize at one of the NRA expos?
 
Bowtech, they tags are taken out to raise money for projects like water improvments for wildlife, reseeding,and predator control on the henry mountains. So one day when you draw your tag you will have a quality place to hunt. The DWR does not fund such projects! I'm sitting on a bunch of deer points also waiting to draw the Henry Mt. permit. Sure I would like to see those tags in the general drawing. However I also would like there to be quality in the unit when I draw. That takes money and it has to come for some other source than DWR's general fund.
 
After reading for the last hour, I'll sum up my observations like this: There are 2 sides. One side thinks it's a scam and is saying so. The other side is insulted, downright pi$$ed that their integrity/integrity of friends is being questioned.

Why doesn't SFW just make everyone happy???? Hire the same folks that do the NV and UT draws and let them pick the winners??

It's a WIN/WIN IMO.

They will lose some profit because of the cost but will sell more tickets because folks will trust the process.
 
Hey you never know it could happen. I mean look at the Jackass the got voted in for our President. Totally rigged! LMAO LOL hahahaha. Come on guys if you can't play and accept the RESULTS than don't PLAY, it just increases my chance of drawing again. Yep I drew an Elk Tag last year and have NO ties with any ORGANIZIATION. Hey Founder! do us all a favor and NUKE this BULLSHIT! :)

"Keep yer powder dry n yer eye on the skyline!"
 
It would be a real shame to see this thread "nuked". It obviously is important to lots of people. This is exactly what I hope to see on here from time to time. It's good for our sport!
 
To answer the question as to can it be rigged....yes. Seems like not all that long ago the DWR got slapped on the wrist because of some very suspicious drawing practices. Cant remember much about it other than that people were cheating the system. Friends and family members were getting tags that they shouldnt have.


respect my authorita
 
The DWR needs to raffle the tags not SFW.
DWR needs to take control of all auction tags and raffles.
Money collected can go to the wildlife from the DWR. In other words no more tags to all organizations.
I trust the DWR more than the SFW and all other organizations.
 
RE: GETTIN OVER IT

LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-10 AT 01:34AM (MST)[p]Just let the DWR have all the tags back so they can put them back in the nonresident draw again and increase our odds (non-res)a little .01 then everyone will be happy and there wont be any complaining either way, thats where I believe they pulled the tags from anyway, they still will be creating opportunity for these tags,oh but wait I forgot its all about the $$$ my bad, come on guys lets just get along with this, there is atleast a chance that can be had in the conventions for these tags and it makes for a great atmosphere even if there is someone that wins and you dont want them to win, just remember someone has to win put in 5 bucks and have fun. nmbighorn
 
RE: GETTIN OVER IT

From the turn out at the expo this year and past I would have to make the assumption that the odds will be be the same this year as they were last year and will be next year. That is because the truth is SFW does have support from many many sportmen. That is why most of the tickets at the banquets sell out and there overall membership stays stable. The 50 haters on MM that always want to scream foul and beat up on Don personally and SFW in general are in all actuallity NONFACTORS in the realm of reality.LOL I LOVE IT!!!!!! So keep pounding those keys haters, you are making a difference!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-10 AT 08:47AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-10 AT 08:45?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-10 AT 08:44?AM (MST)


HERE ARE THE ODDS FOLKS!!!

Sorry guys, no matter how I type it, it posts screwy.
FOR EXAMPLE:
First Row--Deer(42permits)--odds(1 in 212)

2007

Species Permits Odds (1 in..)

Deer 42 212
Elk 50 188
Prong 22 110
Moose 4 1404
Bison 1 4391
D-Sheep 1 4581
M-Sheep 1 4597
M-Goat 1 3757
Turkey 66 24
Bear 5 287
Cougar 7 165

200


2008

Permits Odds (1 in..)

40 185
51 152
19 110
4 1082
4 873
1 3394
1 3478
1 2697
67 20
5 214
7 110

200


2009


Permits Odds (1 in..)

39 219
83 107
18 143
6 784
5 734
2 1873
2 1922
4 804
29 33
5 254
7 102

200
 
Based on those odds, it looks like applications were way down this year. Where did you get the numbers from? I was not impressed with the expo this year myself...thought it was way better last year.

copple2
 
>You danced around the questions that
>have been posed about the
>"rigged" draw pretty well. You
>only supported the idea even
>more about how some people
>deserve tags like Bair because
>of all they have done
>to help wildlife and the
>herds. I am sorry that
>all you SFW guys have
>suucchh a haarrd jooobb. And
>how would have that looked
>to the rest of us
>"loafers" if you are your
>son drew the sheep tag?
>

You rowdyblueman are on idiot just because of your attitude I hope you never draw a coveted tag anywhere in the West!!!
 
There is no (legitimate) reason not to post the complete odds. I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the elk hunts have much longer odds, and some have better odds. Which ones are which? You can bet those in the "in crowd" know exactly what the odds are for each unit. Why shouldn't this be available to the public?

Bill
 
WOW!!! I need some ibuprofen and a nap after reading all of this!!
There are some really good points from both sides.

I am not sayin its rigged. I had my name for a few of those tags too.
BUT...it makes you wonder when someone at or close to the top of these organizations keeps "randomly" drawing a damn good tag year after year.

The bell has been rung, The eyebrow is lifted, The red flag is up or whatever other clever saying you can think of. Its human nature to question.





Mathews Z7
CX Maxima Hunters 350
Sure Loc Single pin
Grim Reaper Broadheads
 
Wouldn't it make more sense to auction off less tags for more money instead of taking 540 tags and making some not so Stinkyrich people happy ever year. Simple law of supply and demand. Let the truely wealthy have these tags and the rest goes back to the general public. Isn't that what other states like AZ does already.
 
Let me start this out by saying John, congratulations on the great tag. I will also say that no one deserves it more than you unless it is me. Just kidding. I have read many posts saying that he does not DESERVE the tag. I don't think he necessarily deserves it because of all he does but he definately deserves it as much as anyone else does. Someone has to draw that tag and I am happy for him. I had my bags all packed and my vacation scheduled and damn the luck did not get the tag I deserved. If like others on here say that there is no "draw" or person that is above reproach then what would make me think that if they were involved there would not be something done wrong or illegally. There is a great answer to all of this. Those of you who think it is rigged simply don't go next year and save your money. Then you don't need to complain if I choose to continue to put my money into the "rigged" pot. Hey that would even give me a little better odds. Anyone that goes with the expectation of winning a hunt is a fool. It is like going to Vegas and thinking I am coming home rich. I went to enjoy the company, mounts, other hunters etc at the EXPO and if I was lucky enough to draw a tag then that would be icing on the cake. Quit whining or just stay home. If you can come up with a better system propose it or start your own orgainzation and make things better. I for one am glad that there are people out there smart enough and ambitious enough to make things like this work. Just look at the results over the years and the additional hunting opportunities that have come along lately. SFW, FNAWS, FULL CURL etc. keep up the great work.
 
Its definatly rigged. My brother spent $150 and drew S cache and my cousin spent $150 and drew Pavhant. I spent $330 and drew nada. It has to be rigged.
 
just to keep this going.

recap.
if you work for, donate time to or donate money to any organization you should be banned from active participation?
is that really your stand?

this includes.
Any currant hunting license holder
Any SFW member
Any MDF member
Any NEF member
Any NWTF member
Any DWR worker
Any FNAWS member
Any state worker
Any taxpayer

so every one who put in is now ineligible to draw because every applicant donated money to the SFW making you part of the SFW.


so you see you silly britches, your crying and fighting only hurts EVERYONE!!!!!
 
Credibility is something that is earned, it's not an entitlement (like too many things in this Country)! I'm sure many would feel this thread wouldn't exist had an attempt at the credibility been put forth.

I'm not saying the EXPO is rigged, but if I was one of the organizers, I'd really make an effort to have been creditable not only with the drawings, but the entire Expo. Apparently, that wasn't done to the satisfaction of some of the supporters.

SSSSSsssOOOOoooo! EXPO, what happens next year? Are things going to be status quo as with the past years, OR are you going to do an "IN YOUR FACE THOSE WHO DOUBT US" credibility earning effort showing all the great things you do including accountability for your finances and the fairness of your drawings? One direction will taint you and the other will gain overwelming support and credibility (if you're interested in it).
 
>just to keep this going.
>
>recap.
>if you work for, donate time
>to or donate money to
>any organization you should be
>banned from active participation?
>is that really your stand?
>
>this includes.
>Any currant hunting license holder
>Any SFW member
>Any MDF member
>Any NEF member
>Any NWTF member
>Any DWR worker
>Any FNAWS member
>Any state worker
>Any taxpayer
>
>so every one who put in
>is now ineligible to draw
>because every applicant donated money
>to the SFW making you
>part of the SFW.
>
>
>so you see you silly britches,
> your crying and fighting
>only hurts EVERYONE!!!!!

If you get paid from an organization that is running the drawing or hold a key volunteer leadership position, then you should not be eligible to participate. Employees and consultants are not eligible.

This is no different than how McDonald's runs a "game of chance" except they exclude family members as well.

Not sure why you assume the outcry cast the wide net you list in your post.
 
>rifle666, SHUT THE F UP, YOU
>DEUCH!



Anyone want to help me administer an IQ test on this guy?
Oh, I'll bet he wants to fight me now! (like in Jr high)

Good debate is good for all but this type communication is counter productive.

This is great ammo for the anti-hunting groups. Remember; "United we stand, divided we fall."

We can all agree to have opposite views but this vile crap must stop or we will all suffer at the hands of the real emeny to hunting!

One more thing boys: Rigged? Really? Rigged? GROW UP fellow sportsmen!!!!!!!

Zeke
 
I had an accounting professor say that as an outside public accountant you had to have independence from being corrupted IN APPEARANCE and IN FACT when providing service to audit clients.

For example, suppose the outside accountant arrives on Day 1 to audit a customer that sells televisions in a store and the owner offers to sell the floor model television with a scratch on it for $10 to the accountant. Most accountants could pay $10 for the television and IN FACT still do an independent audit of the owner's business. Some accountants would be influenced and the audit would no longer IN FACT be as independent. The accountant will be violating industry standards if buys the television for $10 since it has the APPEARANCE of possible corruption of the outside accountant's independence.

Those are very rigid standards where trust is vital to the system working.

McDonald's and your local radio station will have rules anytime there is a contest. State government often has disclosure rules if a contract award is being issued where a relative is involved at the government and at the comapny getting the award.

Utah has a complex ecosystem where among other things Don gets a consulting contract and brings in sponsors for the Expo, Don is key in SFW which gets State tags for the Expo from DFW and Don is key in Full Curl which perhaps is seeking L3C status from the State. Most likely IN FACT the parties negotiating Don's consulting contract got a square deal for the price and results. I assume IN FACT the Expo tag drawing is fair and the proceeds are managed prudently. I know Utah sportspersons have had benefits from persons like Don being active to find ways to get habitat funded.

The APPEARANCE is that transparency is lacking when it comes to who is paid what and what % of proceeds hit the ground for wildlife.

The air will clear with added transparency.
 
Expo rigged

Next time I go to Vegas and dont win, I am calling it a conspiracy theory and I will have Jessi Ventura on the phone asap. WTF so all the piss and moaners if they had drawn a tag this would be a non issue!! I have 15 bonus points on elk and have put in every year since we could and have only drawn a couple general season deer tags a ML300 tag once and a turkey tag once. It is flat ass luck pure and simple! (which I dont have) But I will suck it up and put in again and again and again! Every one is a bad ass when they are hiding behind a computer screen. These are the same people who cant handle the fact that some people just kill bigger deer, bigger elk bigger everything. They automatically assume it was poached or something had to be done illegal because they out did me!! Grow the F up and realize we are all fighting for the same cause and live and let live!!

Congrats John it couldnt of happened to a more deserving person, especially when (arguably) you could say your personally responsible for raising millions of dollars for the benefit of everyone on this website as you are the reason records are being broken year after year (even during a recession) on auction permits!

F the haters the more that drop out the better my odds are!
 
why so expansive? because according to the crying britches if you are in anyway affiliated with the SFW you can't be in the draw.

as for the odds...... WTF? who cares, would it stop anyone from playing? the odds suck, so what.

as for opening the books and being more transparent........ you guys need to step back and look at a bigger picture.
is ANY PART OF OUR GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTING PRACTICES 100% OPEN??? HE// NO!!


or better yet ask the DWR why i have to pay 10 bucks a hunt per hunt per animal to put in the utah draw.

the same system is used as the SFW draw but they only hit us for 5 bucks..............

THAT HAS MORE CORRUPTION POTENTIAL THAN THE EXPO TAGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
RE: Expo rigged

I personally doubt it is rigged. But, the appearance of it being less than legit is real, and perception carries more weight than reality often times. Then, when the supporters resort to trying to silence those expressing concern over how the draw is done, only adds fuel to the fire. Transparency would, if it proves that SFW is honest in all its doings and can account for every dollar raised/spent, alleviate most of the speculation(s) of corruption and greed. Grand standing while avoiding direct answers/responses to the LEGITIMATE concerns of sportsmen who have a vested interest in the issues will only weaken SFW's position within the ranks of the average hunter. Calling those against SFW having a green light with zero accountability "socialists" while taking resources from many to give to the few is both childish and foolish.
 
it seams like this draw & sfw needs to be investigated by the people of utah. if it look like a duck
 
In conclusion, after reading these posts, I believe it would make everyone(all most everyone) feel at ease if everything were made more public. I.E, the drawing process, the money trails, etc.
I agree with the fact "trust" is a major factor when it comes to public resources being used. "Exploited Public Resources" always comes to everyones minds.
Let it all hang out in the open. Put everyones minds at ease..

Snowman
 
I agree that after reading all of these posts, without a doubt transparency is an issue and a simple statistical analysis, certainly points to some discrepency. The way those that support the current system and those who run the system have reacted is of concern. Remember, that those who have will certainly lose this privilege if they do not address the majority. What is so shocking to me is that SFW and other individuals continue to have such a strangle hold on auction tags and the way Utah is run. With all of the recent publication by Eastman's, huntin fool etc, on the sheer number of tags going to the auction, the unfairness of the CWMU program, etc. which many consider abuse of the system, I am shocked the common guys in Utah are not more active and have not forced changes. Hey, I once lived in Utah and understand the complex politico/socio/religio forces in play. After living in other states and understanding how much more fair these states are, and how much better they are managed, and they don't have these organizations receiving millions of dollars from tag auctions, I wonder if giving all the money to these organizations is in the best interest of hunting or in the best interest of a few? If it worked, the habitat, hunting, hunting opportunity would be so much better in Utah than Wyoming, Arizona, Colorado, Nevada because of all the money these organizations receive and then give back. But the reality is that Utah is not any better than most any other state for opportunity or size, however, those with money can certainly hunt big animals anytime they would like. They did manage for huge elk, but now that those same individuals who caused such limited opportunity for elk, will never hunt again, these same individuals are now forcing more tag opportunity and killing the quality. One thing I can say about the Utah system is that in Utah you can have your cake and eat it too, if you are in the right club. Fortunately, I am in the money category, but have chosen to spend it in other states due to obvious personal reasons on the above subject.
 
Not sure how this is auction is handled it may be all above board but I was involved with a National Level Wildlife organization for a few years and was surprised by some of the sananagins that went on at some of the Banquets. Guys would bring old pictures and rifles they had around the house to aution. Most of the $$ would then go back to them with a small donation to the Foundation. They would make deals with Outfiters for hunts that included sweet deals for themselves. The list goes on to include raffles. To say the least I no longer participte or attend. Additionally you may be surporized at some of the salaries that some organization full time members recieve. It's not all about donating their time.
 

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos

Member Gallery Photos and Videos!

3.jpg
Screenshot_20200911-070145_Video Player.jpg
2.jpg
80CFF158-F3F3-4BC7-8A15-B74BD2EB5F82.jpeg
STC_0158 - Copy.JPG
IMG_2253.jpg
e3.png
4D124AEA-FDD7-4C84-9DD9-B04C00CFC0CA.jpeg
20181102_104720.jpg
IMG_0143.jpeg
C8AB471D-C8BF-49AE-A23E-4B68E061A843.jpeg
IMG_5005.jpeg
Back
Top Bottom