Grizzly Delisting

Thanks. Good read. As always, the animal rights forces are fighting it. The Sierra Club is crying that Politics are driving this, not science. What other science do they need? the numbers have been increasing, yet they cry that the increase has slowed down. Well maybe it's because there are getting to be to many of them. I mean come on, you guy's that live up there are saying they're showing up down in the valley's around Cody and Powell. What is a bear doing in Powell? Hopefully it will not end up like the wolf hunting, but my guess is it probably will. At least they're finally talking about it. Let's hope they can overcome the anti's.
 
When delisting occurs, and I think it eventually will, it will be interesting to see if the state immediately re-opens a hunting season or if they wait a year or two. I can see an argument either way.
 
So those of you in the know, what's going on with the wolf deal now in Wyoming?
Sorry to hijack your thread but I figured you'd know the answer.
Zeke
 
Zeke,

I assume the appeal of the D.C. Federal District Judge Amy Berman Jackson's decision is still pending. That kind of appeal may go on forever. Senator Barasso recently introduced S. 2281 to delist the wolf in Wyoming. It is a companion bill to one co-sponsored by Rep. Lummis early in 2015. That bill was sitting in Committee and going no where for about 10 months. The Senator Barasso S. 2281 is believed to have no chance of passing as a stand alone bill. All this litigation crap shows how much the ESA and the EAJA need to be revisited and revised. The EAJA gives too much incentive for the eco-elites to file lawsuit after lawsuit. The federal government pays their inflated attorney's fees and cost if they win.

A delisting of the wolf in Wyoming, Minnesota and Wisconsin is being negotiated as a rider/amendment to the Omnibus Budget Bill. It has the best chance of getting the wolf delisted in Wyoming. However, according to some people in the know it is not a sure thing. Hope that helps.

just sayin...mh
 
I'm not to optimistic remember how long it took to get a wolf season! Lots of political BS will soon be heard!

7 Mag
 
Lots of political BS for sure. The liberal politics have done more damage which they will never understand such as wasted money, moose population in the crapper and so much more. No need to waste my breath it just makes my blood boil as does the HUGE numbers of grizZZZZZZZZZZ.
 
It is my understanding that the Wyoming wolf delisting provisions of the Omnibus Spending Bill for 2016 have been stripped from the bill. Leading the charge were Democratic Senators from California, New Jersey and Maine. The eco-elites continue to overplay their hand with regard to the wolf and the ESA. The one constant in all of this is our federal government is still dysfunctional.

just sayin...mh
 
Couldn't agree with you more on that last statement in your last post mh and thanks for again keeping us up on this as always!
 
The delisting itself should be quick. What will take some time is all the huggers that will find a Judge or Judges to make a mess of things and slow the process of getting hunting seasons. Even when all is said and done the number of tags that will be issued in the three state will probably not be double digit and only the well healed will be able to apply for the few tags.
 
It would be nice to be able to apply and maybe even draw out of the non-ressy pool sooner than later but that is more like a daydream with all the lawsuits that are sure to follow.

Thanks for the heads-up mh

Robb
 
In all probability, the delisting of the grizzly bear will be challenged by numerous eco-elite groups in Federal District Court in Washington, D.C. I am sure that the fundraising letters from these groups are already going out with this announcement by the USFWS. The precedent for having ESA lawsuits heard in Federal District Court in D.C. was previously established in the last Wyoming and Great Lakes wolf cases. The eco-elites will be fighting over whether D.C. District Judge Amy Berman Jackson or Judge Beryl Howell get to substitute their vast knowledge of the grizzly bear for the science put forth by the USFWS and others. Remember, Washington D.C. is now the center of the universe in this country.

The ESA is broken. The EAJA provides a real incentive encouraging litigation by the eco-elites. Both laws need some serious changes. That will never happen because there is too much money involved in the process. After the courts relist the grizzly bear, various members of the House or Senate will introduce bills, and amendments to bills, seeking to delist the grizzly bear. They won't pass, or even be voted on, but will make it look like the politicians involved are actually doing something.

I would like to be wrong about all this, but I don't think I am. Let the games begin.

just sayin...mh
 
I want you to be wrong too, mh, but I'm afraid you're not!

Where did we go wrong by allowing distant folks to dictate local game management policy? It's a sad state of affairs.

Zeke
 
Until the courts are taken out of game management this will continue and it won't be because MH is right that there is too much money involved and money talks.
 
Sure. He can be right.... and you can be right!
Good hell, we all can be right! Right?
Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-08-16 AT 06:25PM (MST)[p]>Sure. He can be right.... and
>you can be right!
>Good hell, we all can be
>right! Right?
>Zeke

I was wondering what your post was referring to and who you were talking to and then I went back and read my last post. I have no idea how I posted that sentence saying "won't" because the intent was to say "will" because I fully agreed with MH. I guess I have to chalk it up to being an old fart mistake I call "sometimers", LOL! Anyway, I think all of us are on the same page on this one Zeke! In fact, very seldom am I ever in disagreement on about anything that MH posts! How a will in that sentence got into a won't is beyond me!
 
I doubt I'll live long enough to see grizzlies hunted in Wyoming. Our system is dysfunctional and has incentives for eco folks to fight rational and science-based decisions. It's a sad/bad situation and is getting worse rather than better. Urban folks drive our country and most have no idea of what we face in a rural state like Wyoming.

And I don't see it changing. Better head to Alaska or Canada if you want to chase a griz. Maybe if you have grandkids they'll get a chance, but I'm not even sure of that.
 
I agree Jim.

Comments are being taken now. Even though the Enviros comments will outnumber ours by a bunch, we still need to send in our comments. We do have science on our side if that means anything.
 
The Feds will delist them after the comment period, as they have their ducks in a row now on the food issues, numbers, etc. Then the antis will go to a Lib Judge (not hard to find in the US nowadays) that they probably already have picked out due to to previous rulings and it will be back and forth just like the wolf issue and probably worse. The only way we will ever be able to use science as the sole management tool of critters is if Congress outlaws these frivolous lawsuits that the taxpayers end up paying for regardless of the rulings.
 
If things keep it up much longer with wolves and grizz might have to resort to a saying that a wise judge once said in a court room here in Wyoming. It's SSS in his hunting camp!!! Love it when a judge hates the amount of wolves and grizz in Wyoming.
 
I am sure there are several groups that are already preparing to file law suits on the day they are delisted. It happens with every species that is delisted under the Endangered Species Act. $$$

Dillon
 
Just reminding anyone in the Cody area that there is a public meeting on the delisting scheduled for tonight at 5:30 PM at the Holiday Inn in Cody. I plan to attend.

just sayin...mh
 
I don't know how much interest there is in this. I attended the meeting last night. It was about two hours long. Attendance was more than I expected. USFWS meeting on delisting is scheduled for the Holiday Inn in Cody on the 11th of April.

There were many locals in attendance. Most of them spoke in favor of the Wyoming Plan. There were some eco-elites at the meeting who raised the usual points. A woman purporting to represent the Sierra Club and various other organizations said delisting was premature. She offered nothing to back that up. The Game and Fish had previously advised everyone in it's presentation that the grizzly bear population had been recovered since 2004. Another eco-elite earth mother raised the issue of genetic connectivity for the bears. The Game and Fish had basically told everyone that historically there was little genetic connectivity of the GYE grizzly bear with other bear populations. They also pointed out that inbreeding of the existing bears was less than 2/10 of 1%. One comment that was made in writing seemed ridiculous to me. That involved a desire to have a 10 mile buffer zone around YNP where no grizzly bear hunting would be allowed. I guess 2.2 million acres isn't enough. Can you imagine the cost to survey and sign a 10 mile buffer zone around YNP?

The Game and Fish has spent 40 million dollars for grizzly bear recovery through 2015. The bulk of that came from license fees. Very little of the money came from the federal government or the general fund in Wyoming. I found this to be very interesting.

just sayin...mh
 
Thanks mh! Even though the pine bark cone deal and genetic connectivity have been thoroughly studied along with the fact that there are more bears than hunters in some areas, the greenie weenies will still be able to find a Lib Judge somewhere like in DC that will hold things up. How long is the only question IMHO.
 
>
>The Game and Fish has spent
>40 million dollars for grizzly
>bear recovery through 2015. The
>bulk of that came from
>license fees. Very little of
>the money came from the
>federal government or the general
>fund in Wyoming. I found
>this to be very interesting.
>
>
>just sayin...mh

I'm not sure that is correct MH(where the money came from)
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-16 AT 10:41AM (MST)[p]>>The Game and Fish has spent
>>40 million dollars for grizzly
>>bear recovery through 2015. The
>>bulk of that came from
>>license fees. Very little of
>>the money came from the
>>federal government or the general
>>fund in Wyoming. I found
>>this to be very interesting.
>>
>>
>>just sayin...mh
>
>I'm not sure that is correct
>MH(where the money came from)
>


Me neither and I didn't read that last few lines closely to catch that! It has been my understanding in reading the annual G&F reports and looking at the pie charts the G&F puts up that the bulk of the money for grizzly bears and wolves has been from Federal funding and General Fund money dedicated strictly for those programs and very little, if any, money has come from licensing fees.
 
jm77 and Topgun,

I am only repeating what the Wyoming Game and Fish guy (Brian Nesvik) stated during the Q & A period after the initial one hour presentation. This was only after a specific question was asked about the source of the 40 million dollars. I note that the 40 million dollars is set forth on Page 26 of the Game and Fish Draft Management Grizzly Bear Plan. I also note that over 2.25 million was spent in 2015 alone. If the Game and Fish guy misspoke, he wasn't corrected by the other bear people in the room including Dan Thompson. During the comment phase, another individual specifically commented that it made him mad that sportsman through fees were bearing the major burden of the costs. On the same subject, a fellow who I have seen at these meetings before as the resident gadfly, asked how the Game and Fish would be able to finance bear management given the declining economy in Wyoming. The Game and Fish didn't see it as a problem when they responded to his question.

A story should be coming out from the Cody Enterprise and the Powell Tribune by Thursday of this week. If it mentions the Game and Fish response, I will post it.

I actually was paying attention and not asleep at the proceeding.

just sayin...mh
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-16 AT 12:30PM (MST)[p]I don't believe either of us were questioning you, but rather the statements they made that you heard at the meeting and that are also stated in the plan itself, as I looked it up before making my response. It is really a 180 from what we have been told in the past about funding sources for those programs.
 
You can question me. Perhaps, I was having a senior moment last night.

Another interesting fact from last nights meeting involved the actual grizzly populations in the GYE. The G&F uses a more conservative counting method which puts the population at around 800 grizzly bears. Another less conservative counting measure, places the grizzly bears in the GYE at somewhere between 1,000 and 1,200.

just sayin...mh
 
>Most of that 40 million has
>been from license fees.
>
>ClearCreek

Thank goodness the G&F finally commented and straightened this out!
 
>>Most of that 40 million has
>>been from license fees.
>>
>>ClearCreek
>
>Thank goodness the G&F finally commented
>and straightened this out!


I found this out by attending one of the meetings and heard the question asked from the public.

ClearCreek
 
The USFWS is having an informational meeting on the delisting of the grizzly bears in Cody, Wyoming at the Holiday Inn on April 11, 2016 (tonight). After that, they will be soliciting comments from the public between 5PM and 8 PM at the meeting. I anticipate hearing a lot of comments from the eco-elites and the groups they support. It is my understanding that these groups believe delisting is premature and not based on sound science. The Sierra Club and the Greater Yellowstone Coalition will be one of the most vocal opponents to delisting. My guess is they will use the delisting to fill their coffers for protracted litigation on the subject. It is my belief that delisting will occur followed by litigation likely to be commenced in Federal District Court in Washington D.C. In my opinion, Washington D.C. will continue to be the "center of the universe" for ESA litigation over predator delisting.

The USFWS believes that the carrying capacity of the area for grizzly bears has been achieved and the purposes of the ESA have been reached. Only time will tell how this plays out.

just sayin...mh
 
The only question will be how quickly the weenies will find a Judge to get politics started after they are delisted. My guess is with all the lib Judges out there, especially in DC, that it won't take long.
 
I attended the meeting in Cody and presented some testimony and a single exhibit. The comments and testimony were about 2/3 for delisting and state management. The other comments were from the eco-elite groups like the Sierra Club, Humane Society, Center for Biologic Diversity (Missoula). Some of the groups had some real young attorneys at the meeting. They all said the same things. No genetic connectivity, the delisting is premature, its not about the numbers, its a political decision not rooted in science. The usual BS from the eco-elites. Not an ounce of common sense or compromise in any of them. I can see them salivating over raising funds from their ignorant constituents.

The most ironic think about the complaints involved the claimed inability of Game and Fish to handle the task. Who the heck do they think has been managing them for the last 25 years. It sure as heck isn't the USFWS. I see delisting this year and protracted litigation in Federal Court. I spoke to the young lawyer from Missoula and she made it pretty clear the would be litigating delisting in Washington D.C. federal court. They like their new found ability to forum shop amongst Obama appointees. I see delisting and state management without hunting for about 2 years. After that, I see a court victory in D.C. for the eco-elites followed by more appeals. The ESA and EAJA are broken and as a consequence so is the system.

I did meet a nice young lady from USFWS (PHD from Washington State) who was knowledgeable, forthright and very pragmatic. That was a plus. Fortunately, I didn't speak with Chris Servheen of the USFWS. His time is usually spent blaming people for every bear attack.

just sayin...mh
 
Thanks for the updates MH. Im from out of state and really enjoy reading what you have to say about topics involving NW Wyoming.

You are a class act. Thank you.
 
>
>The other comments were from
>the eco-elite groups like the
>Humane Society.
>...mh

mightyhunter:

Was it the Humane Society or the Humane Society of the United States? These are two totally different organizations. The Humane Society is the outfit that wants to take care of dogs and cats; while the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) is a rapid anti-hunting, anti-animal group.

It is too bad the names are so close, some think it was intentional on the part of HSUS so they can confuse folks into donating money to them thinking they are donating to help at cat
and dog shelters.

ClearCreek
 
I didn't pay that much attention. All the eco-elite groups have the same mantra (arguments against delisting)with the grizzly bear. They are always looking to move the goal post. I can tell you that they are all emboldened by the last Wyoming Wolf case heard by Judge Jackson in D.C. Federal District Court. I think they all know that the USFWS will delist. My guess is the Complaint has been rough drafted as well as all the Preliminary Injunctions. It will be filed in D.C. The grizzly bear will be there fundraising tool for the next 10 years.

just sayin...mh
 
Yep, and you can bet that it was Wayne Pacelle and his HSUS bunch that thrive by getting donations from many people that have no idea where their money is going. They also have millions of huggers that wouldn't know a Bison from a Grizzly that donate millions of dollars to that jackass. I'll be very surprised if a USFWS delisting lasts more than month, if that.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-14-16 AT 03:06PM (MST)[p]http://billingsgazette.com/news/local/car-strikes-kills-young-bear-on-interstate-near-billings/article_51793c08-8c56-5762-8fb0-0be3ae80de9b.html

I saw this article in the Billings Gazette today. This bear was killed crossing Interstate 90 between Laurel, Mt. and Billings, Mt. They have yet to identify it as a black bear or a grizzly bear. For the point I am trying to make, it doesn't matter. My point in posting this is simple. The eco-elites don't want grizzly bears confined to the Primary Recovery Zone identified in the Wyoming Plan. Further, the eco-elites complain about the lack of genetic connectivity between the grizzly bears in the GYE and those bears to the North in Montana and Idaho. This is what can happen to bears when they go on the stroll away from their usual haunts. It is not the 1800's anymore where little danger exists for a bear when he decides to make a move up North.

just sayin...mh
 
Guys that said they would be huntable in the next year or so have no idea how long things will be tied up by the eco weenies. Even when the Feds do delist them the ecos will have a Federal Judge in their pocket to squash it and order that they be put back on the ESA before the ink dries.
 

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