Hardscrabble

[Monstermuley]

Did anyone else draw an Elk tag for Hardscrabble? Has anyone one here hunted there before? If so how was your experience? Is their any Bull's there worth shooting? Does anyone know anything about Fred Johns?

 

[copple2]

PM sent

copple2

 

[deerslayer88]

Again?

?If men were angels, no government would be
necessary.? John Adams

 

[elkfromabove]

There's a reason it's one of the easier ones to draw! His name is Fred John! Between his hunts scheduled after the required time frame, the four fallen trees we had to hand cut to get up the road to the supposed winter moose hideout which was empty with not even a track, the road restrictions, the number of elk hunters who were on our cow moose hunt, the fact that we saw no moose (or tracks in the foot of snow), no elk (or tracks), and not even a deer (2 sets of tracks in the snow)in 3 days of hunting, and the coup de grace, an apparent cougar hunt for one of his paying customers on the last day with all the barking dogs and the rigs going up and down the canyons and draws for about 4 hours in the morning, I wouldn't accept a hunt on that CWMU if it were free!

However, if you already have a Hardscrabble tag, than I suggest you bring a hardy 4-wheel drive, a shovel, a power saw and chains.

 

[Monstermuley]

Sounds like you had no fun at all. What year was your hunt?

 

[elkfromabove]

>Sounds like you had no fun
>at all. What year was
>your hunt?

2006. Yes, I know, he may have repented by now, but not from some of the posts I've seen on this forum and others. Or his son may have taken over. You know, the one who stopped to only talk while we were chaining up, the one who actually told us where the moose hide during the winter (they weren't there), the one who told us we should have been here yesterday when the cow mooses ran across the road in this very spot before the snow fell, the one who offered to help us load and haul the carcass if we got one for a $200 fee. He's passing on his legacy I guess.

 

[Monstermuley]

Sorry you had such a bad experience with old Fred John. I sure hope mine is nothing like that.

 

[elkfromabove]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-01-14 AT 04:05AM (MST)[p]> Sorry you
>had such a bad experience
>with old Fred John. I
>sure hope mine is nothing
>like that.

I hope so as well. Just be prepared with the proper equipment, clothing, hunting companions, maps, schedule, etc. You'll be entirely on your own. And, depending on the weather, consider coming in from the top of the Bountiful Peak ridge if you can get up there. I know there are elk up there occasionally.

 

[Monstermuley]

Thank you!

 

[treedagain]

have the DWR on speed dial...I would Fred and get the plan from him and if it don't seem right get the DWR in the loop to ensure you get treated fairly.


How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait

 

[muzz]

Just turn the tag back in!! Don't waist you time and points.

O--one
B--big
A--ass
M--mistake
A--america

 

[brutus54]

I drew one of the two Elk tags In 2006. I will start off with I did Fill it with A decide 5x5 !!! But I was lied too more than once!!!And it was not easy!!! I will PM you!!! Then we can talk and I will try to make your hunt better than mine!!!

 

[Ticks N Tines]

There are a lot of people that complain about this CWMU, the operator, and the overall experience. However, none of them do anything about it. All you have to do is issue a formal complaint the DWR/CWMU Coordinator and Mr. Johns will be summoned to a hearing to discuss the issue. If there is any reason to believe that Fred Johns broke any rules or treated a public guy any differently than a private guy, he will be put on probabtion or worse. The CWMU operators that get summoned to these hearings usually change thier ways or they are eliminated from the program. There are a few operators on probation right now and one complaint against them this year could mean the end of their days in the program.

My advice is for the tag holder is to research the CWMU rules and make sure that Mr. Johns follows them. Document everything that he does that is not inline with program requirements. If you are given an unfair experience, you can be compensated and work things out if you just stand up and fight for it. Most people would rather cry about it on Monstermuleys than actually do anything about it.

Good luck to you and I hope things go well on the hunt.

HJB

 

[elkfromabove]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-03-14 AT 01:46PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-03-14 AT 01:40?PM (MST)

>There are a lot of people
>that complain about this CWMU,
>the operator, and the overall
>experience. However, none of them
>do anything about it. All
>you have to do is
>issue a formal complaint the
>DWR/CWMU Coordinator and Mr. Johns
>will be summoned to a
>hearing to discuss the issue.
>If there is any reason
>to believe that Fred Johns
>broke any rules or treated
>a public guy any differently
>than a private guy, he
>will be put on probabtion
>or worse. The CWMU operators
>that get summoned to these
>hearings usually change thier ways
>or they are eliminated from
>the program. There are a
>few operators on probation right
>now and one complaint against
>them this year could mean
>the end of their days
>in the program.
>
>My advice is for the tag
>holder is to research the
>CWMU rules and make sure
>that Mr. Johns follows them.
>Document everything that he does
>that is not inline with
>program requirements. If you are
>given an unfair experience, you
>can be compensated and work
>things out if you just
>stand up and fight for
>it. Most people would rather
>cry about it on Monstermuleys
>than actually do anything about
>it.
>
>Good luck to you and I
>hope things go well on
>the hunt.
>
>HJB

I beg your pardon, but some people do file formal complaints. I did and so did my son! And we both told the DWR the same things I've told you, but apparently there haven't been enough complaints, 'cause he's still there on this unit, though he's been removed from other units. Maybe this is the year he has to find another job!

 

[Monstermuley]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-06-14 AT 11:49PM (MST)[p] I've heard two or three years ago Fred Johns was put on probation. How long does an outfitter stay on probation for a CWMU? Or how many times can he be put on probation before he losses his CWMU rights?

 

[Ticks N Tines]

If a CWMU operator is put on probation and screws up again while on probabtion, he should be removed as the operator.

If you filed a complaint, and nothing happened, I'm sorry to hear that. In most cases, the public guy is reimbursed or compensated somehow for the operator's failure to provide a quality hunt. I'm not sure how they did it 5+ years ago, but these days they are pretty strict and firm with operators that refuse to treat the public right.

 

[Ticks N Tines]

>I beg your pardon, but some
>people do file formal complaints.
>I did and so did
>my son! And we both
>told the DWR the same
>things I've told you, but
>apparently there haven't been enough
>complaints, 'cause he's still there
>on this unit, though he's
>been removed from other units.
>Maybe this is the year
>he has to find another
>job!

So what happened??? Did you go to the hearing with the operator? what was said? what was done? what was the punishment? What was your compensation? Or did you just file a complaint and then not show up at the hearing? If you don't show up, the operator will win everytime.

 

[roaroftherockies]

don't know for sure, but I heard a rumor that Fred John is no longer working that unit.

 

[elkfromabove]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-07-14 AT 07:09PM (MST)[p]>>I beg your pardon, but some
>>people do file formal complaints.
>>I did and so did
>>my son! And we both
>>told the DWR the same
>>things I've told you, but
>>apparently there haven't been enough
>>complaints, 'cause he's still there
>>on this unit, though he's
>>been removed from other units.
>>Maybe this is the year
>>he has to find another
>>job!
>
>So what happened??? Did you go
>to the hearing with the
>operator? what was said? what
>was done? what was the
>punishment? What was your compensation?
>Or did you just file
>a complaint and then not
>show up at the hearing?
>If you don't show up,
>the operator will win everytime.
>

I'm sorry, but I didn't know anything about a hearing. It was my married adult son's tag and he was asked over the phone if he wanted a rescheduled hunt (the next year) and he told them no, he couldn't get the time off (He lived and worked in Cedar City.) No other option was offered as far as I know. And if he was notified of a hearing, he didn't tell me about it and I didn't know the procedure, so I didn't ask.

 

[Monstermuley]

That would be nice roaroftherockies.

 

[Monstermuley]

Thanks for the information HJB.

 

[muzz]

I was told this weekend that Fred was not running the property anymore.

O--one
B--big
A--ass
M--mistake
A--america

 

[SlimShedy]

The vast majority, if not all of the Hardscrabble unit was recently purchased by two different people and from what I've heard they are going to close it down to the public for a few years and keep it in the family. Sounds like they are trying to give the place a chance to recover from all the raping and pillaging. From what I understand, when and if it reopens, it will be under new management.

 

[Packout]

I rarely get on MM anymore, but a friend told me about this so I thought I'd give some thoughts.

HJB- Interesting take on the subject. As a Committee member, I would hope you have a little more compassion for a hunter who files a complaint. The fact he filed the complaint should be enough to take it seriously. If the hunter can not show up for a full day meeting (which many were previously) without a time specific hearing then it should not be held against them. And FYI, Mr John came before multiple CWMU hearings I attended. The CWMU Committee had no authority to grant any restitution. The CWMU could only recommend actions to the Wildlife Board, which were limited. "Letter in the File" or "Probation". No authority to restore points, money, or any compensation to the hunter. The CWMU Committee could only deal with CWMU and even that was very minimal.

As for the original post- educate yourself the best you can and make a decision to hunt or not.

 

[Monstermuley]

I just talked to Fred. It's true the property was bought by 4 or 5 new owners. Sounds like this year Fred is still running The Hardscrabble unit. It also sounds like Fred is trying to negotiate with the new owners so he can continue to run the Hardscrabble unit. Looks like my Elk hunt starts October 4,5,6,7,8. I get 5 days on the CWMU to get my Elk.

 

[Monstermuley]

I just talked to Fred. It's true the property was bought by 4 or 5 new owners. Sounds like this year Fred is still running The Hardscrabble unit. It also sounds like Fred is trying to negotiate with the new owners so he can continue to run the Hardscrabble unit. Looks like my Elk hunt starts October 4,5,6,7,8. I get 5 days on the CWMU to get my Elk.

 

[JHas]

Hey Monstermuley, PM sent.

 

[Ticks N Tines]

>HJB- Interesting take on the subject.
> As a Committee member,
>I would hope you have
>a little more compassion for
>a hunter who files a
>complaint. The fact he
>filed the complaint should be
>enough to take it seriously.
> If the hunter can
>not show up for a
>full day meeting (which many
>were previously) without a time
>specific hearing then it should
>not be held against them.
> And FYI, Mr John
>came before multiple CWMU hearings
>I attended. The CWMU
>Committee had no authority to
>grant any restitution. The
>CWMU could only recommend actions
>to the Wildlife Board, which
>were limited. "Letter in
>the File" or "Probation".
>No authority to restore points,
>money, or any compensation to
>the hunter. The CWMU
>Committee could only deal with
>CWMU and even that was
>very minimal.

Packout,
I'm currently on the CWMU committee and I know how it operates. I never once said the CWMU committee had the authority to make decisions. However, I think if the CWMU committee presents a very detailed report and suggestion to the wildlife board, it should pass. The wildlife board strongly considers the suggestions from the committee.

As for the complaint process, I'm trying to help people understand that they need to stand up and fight for the right to hunt CWMUs. I feel terrible for anyone that has a bad experience on a CWMU and I want to do anything in my power to help that person. However, if they don't take the necessary steps to file a formal complaint and show up to the hearing (which is a few hours, not all day) there is little the committee and board can do to help them. I understand people are busy, but if you got screwed over on your dream hunt, wouldn't you think it would be worth taking the day off to work it out?

I'm not sure why you think I'm attacking the public hunter. I represent the public hunter and want to do everything I possibly can to help the program and better the experience for the public hunter. I have spent the last 2 two years gathering my thoughts and others thoughts for improvement of the program. I want nothing more than to see the CWMU program succeed. If you have a personal vendetta against me for some odd reason, please PM me and we can work it out.

 

[elkfromabove]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-09-14 AT 08:38AM (MST)[p]>>HJB- Interesting take on the subject.
>> As a Committee member,
>>I would hope you have
>>a little more compassion for
>>a hunter who files a
>>complaint. The fact he
>>filed the complaint should be
>>enough to take it seriously.
>> If the hunter can
>>not show up for a
>>full day meeting (which many
>>were previously) without a time
>>specific hearing then it should
>>not be held against them.
>> And FYI, Mr John
>>came before multiple CWMU hearings
>>I attended. The CWMU
>>Committee had no authority to
>>grant any restitution. The
>>CWMU could only recommend actions
>>to the Wildlife Board, which
>>were limited. "Letter in
>>the File" or "Probation".
>>No authority to restore points,
>>money, or any compensation to
>>the hunter. The CWMU
>>Committee could only deal with
>>CWMU and even that was
>>very minimal.
>
>Packout,
>
> I'm currently on
>the CWMU committee and I
>know how it operates. I
>never once said the CWMU
>committee had the authority to
>make decisions. However, I think
>if the CWMU committee presents
>a very detailed report and
>suggestion to the wildlife board,
>it should pass. The wildlife
>board strongly considers the suggestions
>from the committee.
>
>As for the complaint process, I'm
>trying to help people understand
>that they need to stand
>up and fight for the
>right to hunt CWMUs. I
>feel terrible for anyone that
>has a bad experience on
>a CWMU and I want
>to do anything in my
>power to help that person.
>However, if they don't take
>the necessary steps to file
>a formal complaint and show
>up to the hearing (which
>is a few hours, not
>all day) there is little
>the committee and board can
>do to help them. I
>understand people are busy, but
>if you got screwed over
>on your dream hunt, wouldn't
>you think it would be
>worth taking the day off
>to work it out?
>
>I'm not sure why you think
>I'm attacking the public hunter.
>I represent the public hunter
>and want to do everything
>I possibly can to help
>the program and better the
>experience for the public hunter.
>I have spent the last
>2 two years gathering my
>thoughts and others thoughts for
>improvement of the program. I
>want nothing more than to
>see the CWMU program succeed.
>If you have a personal
>vendetta against me for some
>odd reason, please PM me
>and we can work it
>out.

Packout, HJB,

Actually, I didn't take your responses personally ether way, but I appreciate both of you considering it. We were quite nieve to the CWMU complaint process back then and were prompted to make the complaints only after talking to a more savvy friend about the hunt and, thus, our complaint probably wasn't as timely as it should have been (about a month later). In any case, the hunt wasn't that big of a deal to us at the time and we just considered the experience a learning opportunity. And, after all, we did spend some quality time together, albeit more work than play. We just didn't get to try cow moose meat until 2 years later when I shot one on public land a bit south of Hardscrabble.

And, FWIW, me and, on two occasions, two of my other adult kids have also had antlerless tags (deer) on Heaston East/Kennecott CWMU and one time had a bad experience, but the other time a great experience. I, personally, am in favor of the CWMU program as long as the CWMU complies with the DWR and CWMU Organization laws and rules. And as long as the public hunters are as valuable as the paying hunters. And, as long as the animals, not the money, are the bottom line.

 

[elkfromabove]

>I just talked to Fred. It's
>true the property was bought
>by 4 or 5 new
>owners. Sounds like this year
>Fred is still running The
>Hardscrabble unit. It also sounds
>like Fred is trying to
>negotiate with the new owners
>so he can continue to
>run the Hardscrabble unit. Looks
>like my Elk hunt starts
>October 4,5,6,7,8. I get 5
>days on the CWMU to
>get my Elk.

I wish you the best of luck! And hopefully, now you'll go into it better prepared than we were. It'll make a great deal of difference, I'm sure. Please keep us posted!

 

[Packout]

HJB- PM sent.

 

[muzz]

I would still turn the tag in. Anything Fred has to do with get the hell out!!

O--one
B--big
A--ass
M--mistake
A--america

 

[Monstermuley]

HJB thanks for the information. If for any reason I feel I'm being mistreated I will definitely be contacting you.

 

[Monstermuley]

I will elkfromabove.

 

[HGOP]

Monstermuley, How did your hunt go? where you succesful? Where you treated fairly by Fred?

 

[Monstermuley]

I feel I was treated fair. I was not successful. I had opportunities. Sounds like Fred might not be there next year. Sounds like one of the new land owners wants to run the CWMU next year. See what happens.