HB-2072 officially "dead"!

[DonMartin]

I was just advised by Pete Cimellaro that HB-2072 is officially "dead".

I assume that means any and all attempts to get any of the legislation through this legislature that so many were opposed to is finally done.

AND FYI, at Tuesday night's WCC meeting in Phoenix I advised Suzanne that I could not and would not embrace the legislation as I believe it violated the North American Model of wildlife management. (We still disagree on that point!)

One thing many of you forgot in all of this, is that as a Hunter Education instructor (Master Instructor for Region III) that we instructors teach to our students about the North American Model.

Do you really think that I could support legislation that goes against that while at the same time teaching our youth about it?

The MSC BOD still has not taken a stand on this as the survey is still open until our Board meeting on April 12.

I wear a lot of different "hats" as a conservationist and I felt I could not publicly take a position on all of this until the BOD had taken an official position. Now that its dead I see no problem with me stating what to many who know me was obvious.

Now maybe the "witch hunts" will be over and we can all go back and work on what is our common bond--wildlife and sportsmen!

Don Martin

 

[Gwagen]

Well, that would certainly be good news....but, is this the same Pete C. that wrote the letter a few weeks ago saying "Kill HB 2072" then continued to advocate for the "concept" which was being pushed while we all knew that the number "2072" was already dead? Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

I'd like to see an email blast from AZSFW (like all those they have sent out pushing it) to everyone on their mailing list that makes it clear that they are dropping the concept FOREVER. Anything short of that will be suspect in my mind. I personally have no trust in anyone that has been pushing this thing.

Be well Don.

Bruce

 

[Bugler]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-12 AT 12:15PM (MST)[p]HB 2072 has been dead awhile now. However the group is and has been actively attempting to garner support for a like written bill of a different number.
The people and groups tact have stepped forward to fight this asinine and corrupt group should be recognized and supported. Those that have sat the fence deserve nothing. It was wrong period from the inception and as I said before AZ is a diff place we unite when pushed to a fight. The avg joe has a Job an family and bills and leaves the job of wildlife mgmnt to the azgfd. And although we don't always agree with them on everything were not as ignorant as the self righteous azsfw wants everyone else to think we are. The azsfw is not our game and fish, not our wildlife biologists, not our friend and absolutely not our representative .
I will trust none of them ever with anything related to our wildlife. Period.
I'm still watching, it's a new day.
JD

 

[gleninaz]

Don-same Pete C that stood in front of your group six years ago and swore the AZSFW would NEVER push for auction and raffle tags? I trust the AZSFW and the people who support them as far as I can kick them and no the witch hunt is not over. We will have an article in the AZ Republic soon if all works out well so they can interview Pete and he can tell them the push is over. I hope that AZSFW loses every member thay have and Gilstrap can lobby the board members to continue her gravy train.

 

[Chef]

This is not dead until the 11th of April.
Then it will re appear every legislative session in one form or another. I will never forget those that involved themselves with this initial push. I lost respect for a lot of people.

My thanks go out to the organizations that have disassociated themselves with AZSFW.

 

[DonMartin]

FYI guys, I confirmed with yet another person in the know about this. Yep its done...

Now, here is the challenge.

Figure out a way to handle these real issues that are still in front of us: habitat, predators, access, antis, recruitment and retention.

These are for real, we must address them, and its gonna take a heck of a lot of money to get it done. What group will now step up and arrange to do the down and dirty work at the legislature?

This process has been a terrible blood letting among sportsmen and the antis got to be thinking, ok now is the time to strike!

We got to get reorganized and keep fighting if you want your kids and grand kids to know what hunting is!

Don Martin
Govt Liaison
Mohave Sportsman Club

 

[Lv2hnt]

Pete Cimellaro sat quietly directly under one of the mics at the March 22 meeting at AZ. G&F --- said nothing that night. Most in the room probably didn't have a clue who he was. Like a cancer you don't notice until the damage is done?

He's been in this game in Arizona w-a-y too long to bow out now. He's just one of several. This isn't over by a long shot, believe me!

I hope each of us finds a way to PERSONALLY get involved with a state wildlife conservation group that s-u-p-p-o-r-t-s our G&F professionals!

Lv2hnt

"Every man dies --- not every man really lives."

 

[Bugler]

We're workin on it.

 

[Gwagen]

>FYI guys, I confirmed with yet
>another person in the know
>about this. Yep its done...
>

Sort of like when bonuspointjohn said on another forum on January 13th

"Evidently a man's word is not worth much here. For those conspiracy theorists, the BLACK helicopter squads, and .... the paranoid..The bill will not be back. Nuff said. You can now go on to other endeavors."

Thanks again Don, but I'll be a lot more comfortable when I get an email from AZSFW saying they have foresworn this and any future attempts to bring it back (like next year). I'm sure (wink, wink) we should get such an email since they have been so prolific in sending out their propaganda emails advocating for the "concept" and telling us "average joes" that we just did not understand, that we were in over our heads, and that we were just a vocal minority.

Bruce

 

[Outdoors]

Why should state tags be handed over to generate funds to cover administrative costs for a private lobbying group?

Not one but three lobbyists were working to get these welfare tags as of earlier this week so I am not buying the framework of 2072 is dead.

What if the tags are lost to this 3rd party? The tags will not return to the draw even after a lobbying organization is bootstrapped by a couple of years of being handed $100,000s of proceeds from tags stolen out of the draw. Look at Utah where the Expo scam got blessed for 5 more years of 300+ tags.

This scam is perpetual welfare. Welfare for a third party that wants to boldly cut in line of every other group working to improve habitat and defend hunting rights.

Shame on SFW and its supporters for launching this divisive approach that stunk from the moment "emergency" got stamped on the bill.

 

[AZStickman]

Don:
What you state are real issues but the main issue may be that of trust. Chris Denham, Floyd Green, Alan Hamberlin, Pete Cimallero,Eddy Corona et. al. were some the most respected leaders in the AZ conservation arena. They now have shown an ugly side and are relegated in status to the "Rat Pack". They may never regain the trust of AZ sportsmen and women and will most likely always be viewed the same way George Taulman is. What a shame their personal gain and greed took them down this path..... Terry

 

[rthrbhntng]

Don said "Figure out a way to handle these real issues that are still in front of us: habitat, predators, access, antis, recruitment and retention."
Don, why not work with the Department and Commission on these issues to make the programs that are already in existence stronger.
We already do a great job on habitat through the AZGFD Habitat Partnership Committee, just need more involvement and money. Not some group to come along and do it for us and the G&F.
We already have the Hunter and Angler Work Group of 30-40 groups and sportsmen working hand in hand with the AZGFD on hunter recruitment. The most advanced program of its kind in the U.S. More volunteers and money would help more. Not a group that hasn't even been involved to do it for us and the G&F.
The department has people working on access and predators. They could use some help there too. Instead of a group that says they can fix it all.
You of all people should know that these programs are in existence and what the needs are to make them better. Your group is even involved in working with the Department on many of the issues you seem to think we need to have a group take over to accomplish. You know as well as I that money won't fix all the issues and one group alone can't do it. You also know that we need to work with G&F and Federal Agencies to get these things done not fight them.
Steve

 

[Deerlove]

++++1

 

[muleymaniac]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-12 AT 05:33PM (MST)[p]

"Figure out a way to handle these real issues that are still in front of us: habitat, predators, access, antis, recruitment and retention."

you know this has been an ongoing process for generations!

what we need to do and know is azsfw is done. finished, thru in this state and that means removal of members from all possible boards associated with wildlife . including those on the G&F commissioners reveiw board.

they started this crap!

here agin you are forgive and forget.

it ain't that easy DON

yes, we need to move on but like in any war you can not let leave an enemy in the field who will continue to fight.
If we need another group .
well it'll happen but what we do not need is people like those involved in this mess .



if we are truly to move on we have to make sure this ugly snake has it head chopped off, or it will return to bite us in the ass another day!

the damage they have done is unforgivable and irreversable!

 

[Chef]

I suspect that several people will be on damage control.
Both for their organizations and personal reputations.

We must never forget that we would be in an entirely different world right now if this bill passed the first time. Ironically, the people who are now asking for unity, would have been the same people benefiting from the bills passing.

I can hear them now..."who will defend us from the antis now?"

My question is..."Who will defend us from SFW/AZSFW/AZSFWC?!"

 

[sagebrush]

A vigilant goup of independent sportsmen and women did defend us from the enemy within.

Round 1: Us 1 Them 0.

The problem we face is winning every round. They can lose all but the last round. They lose but do not fail. We win the round but do not prevail.

The only way to put this issue to bed is restrictive legislation. Legislation with some teeth to it, like requiring a super majority to modify or repeal it.

Look how much effort was required to turn the tide in this attempt and how close we were to losing before we became aware. I think AZSFWC learned a lot fom this failure and will modify their strategy for the next attempt. We should be proactive instead of waiting and watching.

Anyone know a sympathetic legislator willing to sponsor a bill putting SFW and their clones out of business in AZ forever?

 

[DonMartin]

Here are some ideas to ponder.

We all agree that under the North American model wildlife is in public ownership and shouldn't be sold to the highest bidder. But yet, for over 20 years, we as citizens have "allowed" critter groups in Arizona (under the watchful eye of AZ G&F) to offer over 30 big game tags a year in the form of raffles and auctions!

And did we as sportsmen squawk at that? Nah.

So does this mean we will stop all of the big game raffles and auctions that are done now by the various critter groups, and end the most recent tag give away, the AZ SUPPER RAFFLE! Probably not and here is why.

We know that selling those tags to the highest bidder raises a heck of a lot of money for the various critters and habitat in AZ. No one seems to object to that. Does that now mean we will demand they stop that practice of sacrificing a few animals to the rich guys to help the greater good?

I'd say probably not. So does that make us hypocrites to say on one hand its bad to sell wildlife but its OK if we do as long as a conservation group handling the sales and then turn over the money to G&F to dole out via the HPC process?

And for those not in the loop, if you want to see how that process works, get involved. What I saw was the critter group that sold the tag had the primary say on what projects the tag money was used for. Does G&F have oversight? Sure, but do they challenge the groups decisions? Not a lot.

Just some things to ponder.

Steve don't know why you are going this way when you of all people know darn well I am a member of HAHWG team, a master Hunter Education Instructor, and volunteer coordinator for many of the MSC's kids events.

Anyway, someone is going to have to step up and do the "dirty" work in the political arena. G&F can't do it by law.

It always ends up with some other group doing that fight. So who is going to do it?

I suspect a "new" group will evolve. It happened before and will happen again.

It always starts with pure intentions.

But somewhere down the road that group will no doubt end up with a black mark for trying to do something that may not be popular.

OK Chef, I'll ask you, "who is going to defend sportsmen and wildlife downtown at the Legislature?

Don Martin

 

[Gwagen]

>
>OK Chef, I'll ask you, "who
>is going to defend sportsmen
>and wildlife downtown at the
>Legislature?
>
>Don Martin

Well, I wont pretend to speak for Chef, he does a good job on his own, but it appears to me that a "vocal, over our heads, unfunded, disorganized, etc., etc. minority" did a pretty good job so far against the biggest threat many of us have seen since USO. AZSFW and their paid lobbyists along with the "old guard" have not done so well (thank God).

Bruce

 

[Zim]

"Anyway, someone is going to have to step up and do the "dirty" work in the political arena. G&F can't do it by law.

It always ends up with some other group doing that fight. So who is going to do it?

I suspect a "new" group will evolve. It happened before and will happen again.

It always starts with pure intentions.

But somewhere down the road that group will no doubt end up with a black mark for trying to do something that may not be popular.

OK Chef, I'll ask you, "who is going to defend sportsmen and wildlife downtown at the Legislature?"

This will definitely be a necessity. In fact I was just on the phone with one of the other supporters discussing this exact issue. AZSFW is in this for the long haul. No question about that. And they will morph as necessary as they feel out the weak points in the legislative underbelly. All those passionate about this cause need to discuss this now and look at the best options.







***********************************
Member RMEF, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club

 

[AZWALKER]

>FYI guys, I confirmed with yet
>another person in the know
>about this. Yep its done...
>
>
>Now, here is the challenge.
>
>Figure out a way to handle
>these real issues that are
>still in front of us:
>habitat, predators, access, antis, recruitment
>and retention.
>
>These are for real, we must
>address them, and its gonna
>take a heck of a
>lot of money to get
>it done. What group
>will now step up and
>arrange to do the down
>and dirty work at the
>legislature?
>
>This process has been a terrible
>blood letting among sportsmen and
>the antis got to be
>thinking, ok now is the
>time to strike!
>
>We got to get reorganized and
>keep fighting if you want
>your kids and grand kids
>to know what hunting is!
>
>
>Don Martin
>Govt Liaison
>Mohave Sportsman Club

I think we can all working together to fight the anti's Don but the other side of that coin is we need to stop side stepping the dept!!! Do you realize that supressor bill didn't have to be a bill at all? Do you know that could have been a simple rule change by the commission. Start using the system, it works!

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[rthrbhntng]

Don
You need to read my last paragraph again. If you need an explanation feel free to call.
Steve

 

[jodog]

Don:
What you state are real issues but the main issue may be that of trust. Chris Denham, Floyd Green, Alan Hamberlin, Pete Cimallero,Eddy Corona et. al. were some the most respected leaders in the AZ conservation arena. They now have shown an ugly side and are relegated in status to the "Rat Pack". They may never regain the trust of AZ sportsmen and women and will most likely always be viewed the same way George Taulman is. What a shame their personal gain and greed took them down this path..... Terry
.................................................................

100%... Truer words were never spoken !!!!!

 

[AZWALKER]

I'm sorry to say this but I'm going to quite frank.

The biggest challenge we face is ourselves. Those of us who have gotten so dogmatic that we can tconcieve of the fact that we can't fix it. Some will swear that its all predators. Some will swear that its the drought. Some will swear that there are too many tags. And on top of all that, hunters want a quick fix. Another big problem is the old gaurd. Those who have a list of credentials as long as my arm and who have come to the conclusion that the educated biologists at the department don't really know what they are talking about. So, they bypass the biologists and go straight to the commission. If they don't get what they want there, they go to the legislature. Its this arrogance that has made the rest of us not want to have anything to do with critter groups. Unless you have a degree in wildlife biology, you should probably trust those that do. If you educate yourself by reading various studies that have been done, you'll soon find you really don't know anything. Bucking the department and pushing your uneducated agenda only prolongs the process and costs the department countless hours that could be focused on wildlife management. But instead they have to manage hunters and waste our money doing it. If we would all learn that we all have the same goal, healthy wildlife, we could get there a lot faster. Stop wasting all of our time and money with personal agendas!

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[Bugler]

Theres alot that can be done in this state, but we have to work with the G&F and think out of the box a bit. I have some ideas just as I did years ago when I was on the board for the ADA. I voiced them but wasnt heard. Guess I wanst loud enough.

 

[spcheuvront]

AZWALKER;

You seem to be a young man who cares deeply about the wildlife of Az.

However, you have not spent enough time dealing with the AZG&FD,
to know they are not always totally honest when they deal with you.

Prime example , is the DOE HUNTS on the kiabab.
The ADA spent 10 years fightiny the AGF&GD over this huge lie and it really hurt the kaibab deer herd.

Educate yourself on matters you care deeply about, and then fight them---- you can win, but it isn't easy and takes a lot of time and patience.

Been there and done that---

Steve Cheuvront

 

[Outdoors]

>I'd say probably not. So does
>that make us hypocrites to
>say on one hand its
>bad to sell wildlife but
>its OK if we do
>as long as a conservation
>group handling the sales and
>then turn over the money
>to G&F...
>
>Don Martin


This is crucial to me. 2072 picked one organization to get 100s of tags and the proceeds were not returning to the state. That is the UT model that funded a rouge group headed by an all powerful leader that in essence does what he wants rather than merely provide leadership to an empowered membership base. That is bad policy and rarely ends well.

 

[AZWALKER]

With all due respect Steve you have no idea how much expirience I have with anything. I respect what you are saying and I respect your opinion but ithink of things a little different. I may not have 20 years of dealing with game and fish but I have many more years than that dealing with people. And game and fish are people. I'm pretty good at dealing with people. Someone can easily sit back and say they have 40 years expirience dealing with game and fish and with wildlife. Well, do you have 40 years expirience or 1 year of expirience 40 times? This whole precess has shown me that many of those who have been involved with wildlife for years and years and years have gotten so dogmatic that they have failed to learn anything new. If someone started off not liking game and fish and 20 years later you still can't work with them, that person has wasted 20 years. This "young man" theory don't hold water with me, sorry. Its a persons ability to learn that makes them valuable to wildlife. I am bound and determined to build a great relationship with the dept. Will I have to bite my tougue? Sure. Will I always agree with the? Nope! Will there be a relationship there based on trust? Absolutley!!! Steve, I have heard nothing but good things about you and these comments are not directed towrad you in any way shape or form. But... Some of the old gaurd need to let some of us "young guys" get in there and get involved and have our turn. We want to recruit young hunters right?

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[mesquitehunter]

>Prime example , is the DOE
>HUNTS on the kiabab.
>The ADA spent 10 years fightiny
>the AGF&GD over this huge
>lie and it really hurt
>the kaibab deer herd.

How many years has the ADA spent fighting AZGFD on our desert mule deer herds? The desert mule deer herds are hurting bad. Also how many studies has the ADA funded for our desert mule deer herd?





Gun control is a good aim and a steady rest

 

[spcheuvront]

AZWALKER;

I am all for you, and would hope a new group of energenic people take up the fight.

Keep your eyes open.

You mentioned, going to the commission with problems.

When you hit a brick wall , in dealing with the AZG&FD , your only avenue is to go to the commission for help. If you convience the commission , they inturn tell the AZG&FD what to do.

This avenue , is by no way an easy route to take , believe me.

I wish you all the best wishes I can. Fight the fight , and never give up.

Steve Cheuvront

 

[AZWALKER]

Boy I'm glad you understood that I wasn't talking about you Steve. I was concerned about that.

I get what you're saying about the commission and the dept. My hope is that if we can build a good relationship with the dept that we won't need to go to the commission. That's my personal goal anyway. Just like I said before, the dept is people and they react like people. If they feel thrown under the bus by orgs, they will take it personal, just like if they lied to you, you would take it personal. I just don't want to get so dogmatic about things that I fail to learn.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[muleymaniac]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-31-12 AT 07:10PM (MST)[p][font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Mar-31-12 AT

a good relation with the commission means we still need to have a say in who gets appointed as commissioner ,
the governor is limited to 2 names ,due to this commissioners reveiw board

2 azsfw director members sit on it now and they will try to do everything they can to get everyone on their side and appointed to the review board , they control the 2 names for the governor to choose from!!.

we need to be carefull who these people are ! i noticed on cwt a commission seat is open and needs filling!

we need someone of trust here not another azsfw flunky . this is how they plan to control the future g&f commissioners by appointing guys they want !!

 

[Bates7]

Awesome job. God bless you for saving our traditions.

http://img1.jurko.net/avatar_13010.jpg[/img][/url]

 

[Bura Nut]

how could I get on this commission appointment board????........I would like to sit on it........... Thanks, Allen Taylor......

 

[DonMartin]

You boys better remember that a Commission appointment is a complex process, and unfortunately politics has a lot to do with it.
The rules state how many of one party can be on it at one time( just to make it fair).
If you want any shot you better have some heavy hitters politically speaking ready to step up for you, and it always helps to have a lot of experience on other important committees and commissions.
It doesn't hurt to be a successful business owner and have a solid record of being a "contributor" the party in power...
Unfortunately being part of a lot of habitat projects, etc. doesn't seem t0o matter as does a lot of the stuff I've outlined above.
Lots of luck!
Don Martin

 

[AZWALKER]

I'm sitting here wondering the same thing Allen. I don't want to sit on the board but I'm wondering how you get on the board. Do they some from the critter groups? I guess when you post it in red it means we should read it? Lol..

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[Bruinbrewin]

You will need to start by getting yourself a lobbyist

Sorry Allen, I had to lighten the mood a little at your expense before I fire up the Anti tag grab generator for the day. (I'll vote for you)

TO everyone:
HB 2072 is dead and has been since it was pulled by Weiers as stated earlier, but rest assured those that pushed for that bill are smart, well organized, financially sound and not finished. There was no mistake in the emergency bill proposal, it was well thought out, planned and executed as planned hoping to slide it through, as they knew of the resistance the bill would generate. Mistakes can be forgiven over time but take note this was no mistake, this was deliberate and intentional. For anyone to call this a mistake is a huge injustice.

There is still a strong possibility of a striker bill.

Do not be fooled into a state of complacency with these people, I know I won't ever again and I hope that everyone else that has woken up will stay engaged in our fight for what is right and fair for all. I also am in agreement that there are many tools already in place that need to be looked at for effectiveness and efficiency and restructure if broken. I lost trust in the individuals that I had believed were looking out for all of our best interests. Since I have never had such a huge breach of my trust like this before, I do not know if it can be restored with those individuals. I certainly will not trust the AZSFW as a group as collectively they seem to have become misguided and what could possibly be perceived as corrupt. We are not out of the water by any sense of the imagination. Dig in and act now harder than you have been to let them know we will not weaken our stance. As for their watered down proposal to test the edges of what we would consider.... I would consider a complete elimination of any agenda of this type for this legislative session or any session in the future. Oh yes, AND....a complete disbanding of the AZSFW.
BB

 

[AZWALKER]

BB, you hit er on the head.

The one thing we do have on our side is their arrogance. I won't say names or orgs but... Like you said, the people you thought were looking out for us were looking out for themselves. The great thing about arrogance is that its easy to spot, even if its flase humility, if you are truly humble yourself. Now I've gotten to know a lot of people in the hunt community and some are goofballs but they aren't too big for their britches and they are truly great people.

I have been screaming this from the rooftops and I'm almost sick of hearing myself say it but if you truly want to change the way things are done, find a good org and JOIN! Find an org that will listen to you and listen to your wishes. Find a group that made their position known from the get go! Or... Find a new org. Whatever and whoever.. Just join. Even if you only have one weekend to spare for a project or none... Join! That is the best way to fight this crap. Please guys, if you are reading this and care anything about the future of hunting, join in the fight.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[krp]

Don, Allen wants to be on the Commission 'appointment' board.

This board is another threat we have to address. If we can't get rid of it we need to take over the majority vote.

Kent

 

[DonMartin]

Kent, same thing there too..

Odds of getting on there without some serious political support would be slim to none!

Don Martin

 

[krp]

Yes, it's why I oppose the concept, that and it completely removed the constituent voice in the commission choice.

In 08/09 when the Nappy commission and the newly formed azsfw created such a hostile environment that the orgs were basically blackballed and us individuals were pretty much ignored by the same commission. I said right here that the problem is, we are controlled by a group of 5 people with no voting constituency, our only recourse was to replace the governor. Well, Obama did it for us and within a short time the number on the commission went from 4/1 against us to 3/2 for us.

Now to find out that we have another 5 person panel that removes us yet beyond the choice of governor for recourse. When I challenged John from ADA he said I could get on the board if I wanted a voice. azsfw, who controls the board won't give it up that easy.

So instead of having at least a roundabout 1 person vote for gov as a voice, I get to stand in line with the other citizens...

Please move forward citizen, stay in order, continue to move forward... nothing to see here... everything is under control... stay in line... please move forward citizen...

Kent

 

[OutdoorWriter]

17-201. Game and fish department and game and fish commission members; appointment; removal; meetings

A. The laws of the state relating to wildlife shall be administered by the game and fish department. Control of the department is vested in the game and fish commission. The commission shall consist of five members, appointed by the governor pursuant to section 38-211. Not more than three members shall be members of the same political party, and no two members may be residents of the same county. Members shall be well informed on the subject of wildlife and requirements for its conservation. Appointments shall be for a term of five years and shall expire on the third Monday in January of the appropriate year.

B. The governor may, after public hearing, remove a member for inefficiency, neglect of duty or misconduct in office. Upon removal of a member the governor shall file in the office of the secretary of state a complete statement of all charges made against the members and his findings thereon, together with a complete record of the proceedings.

C. Each member of the commission while attending general or specific meetings of the commission or while performing official duties for the commission shall receive compensation as determined pursuant to section 38-611. A commission member who is otherwise employed as a public officer shall not receive such payment if it is prohibited by law. Compensation and expenses shall be paid monthly from the game and fish fund.

D. The commission shall have its principal office at the state capitol but meetings may be held at any time or place within the state. The commission shall meet at least once quarterly. Meetings may be held at the call of the chairman or majority of the commission. A majority of the commission shall constitute a quorum to transact business.





TONY MANDILE

How To Hunt Coues Deer

 

[Bura Nut]

don, it is my understanding that you should be in favor of getting the right person on this board. if it isn't me, I don't care, but for the sake of everything you say you stand for, help the cause and network within our hunting community so we garner the support from the right people for a candidate we can trust on the appointment board........ Thanks, Allen Taylor......

 

[DonMartin]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-01-12 AT 09:51AM (MST)[p]Allen for years the Mohave Sportsman Club has tried in VAIN to get someone on that Commission from our area. Hard to believe but since 1970--over 40 years-- there has been just ONE sportsman from Northwest Arizona on the G&F Commission.

Remember we have over 1,000 miles of Colorado River shoreline in Mohave County, Lakes Mead, Mohave, Havasu,along with Alamo lake, plus the AZ Strip is in Mohave County.

We also have a lot of the Desert Bighorn Sheep habitat within our borders.

So why haven't we ever had anyone? Are there not sportsmen up here who are qualified?

The answer is YES when it comes to having the background in wildlife knowledge, but NO when it comes to having the political "Juice" to make it happen!

So that is what is boils down too.

Folks are on Commission for a number of reasons for a number of reasons. Look at the backgrounds of each of them.

Remember Jennifer Martin? Did she really have a solid background? Some might say no. She was appointed and we all knew it because if two reasons. The Governor wanted a Democrat who would do her bidding. and she wanted a lady on there. No problem with the female part, and being a Democrat doesn't necessarily make you bad, BUT in this case, it was politics, pure and simple.

Most of the Commissioners have a business background, which is good, but look and see if they are what you might say are "blue collar" people; sportsmen who have spent time on the ground doing a lot of projects, etc. The one exception to that comes to mind was Joe Melton. YVR&GC had the "juice" to make that appointment happen. Joe was and still is a stand up guy and represented us well.

Don't get me wrong, there are and have been some other great folks who have served! I like and really respect Robbie Woodhouse for one. Again YVR&GC had the political "juice" to get it done.

There also have been a number of bad ones.One in particular who was very condescending to those who came to the podium to speak.

Because of that guy, I told our club that I basically quit going to meetings.

Anyway, I have been involved in the past with this Commission stuff, and know first hand how it works.

It is a very interesting process to say the least, and for the uninformed, go through it and you'll get a wake up call.

Do I ever expect to see a real "blue collar" sportsman on the Commission? No I don't for all the reasons stated above.

Sure I wish we had a voice of common sense, a common person serving that is in touch with what who referred to as the "Average Joes", but that is not how the "game" is played in the nasty world of political appointments.

Don Martin

 

[AZWALKER]

How do I say this...

I don't think it is so imperitive that we get someone on that board right now. Although it is important that new blood is injected into the system, I believe a more methodical approach will be more effective. Again, we need to get involved in existing orgs or new ones. Rome wasn't built over night. I don't the ink the appointment of 1 person to the commission will make that much of a difference... Yet. Remember, there are five people on that commission and anyone appointed will soon be sobered by the responsibility. Our voice need to grow amongst the orgs. Once we can change the culture of some of these orgs then we can start to clean out some of the self serving culture that exists now. I think our focus should still be to cripple the orgs behind that bill and make them essentially ineffective. Now that they have lost, we need to put pressure on the orgs that are still members of the AZSFWC to abandon their memberships. Its the perfect time to do so because there is no longer a fear of withheld funding. Just my opinion guy.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[Bura Nut]

are we all on the same page? I am talking about the commission appointment board........not the commission......... Thanks, Allen Taylor......

 

[AZWALKER]

I think Don is refering to the commission and I was refering to both. When I meant the appointment board I called it the board and when I refered to the commission, I refered to it as such. I'm on the same page brother.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[DonMartin]

Guys:

To get on the Commission selection board it is basically the same process. It is still very political!

Sorry for the confusion. Best you all know what the process is.

Don Martin

 

[krp]

Well, the appointment members serve for 5 years and each year one of the qualifying categories come up for renewal. So it is important to start planning for the next year's 1 position.

The Jennifer Martin saga... it truly has changed the landscape within our hunting communities. She replaced Gilstrap in 06 at the same time azsfw was just starting to surface in the commission meeting minutes. That bitterness caused a lot of problems for all the hunting community with the Nappy commission, that bitterness drove the same people to lobby for a commission appointment board that they control, that bitterness is still seen today by the same folks pushing 2072 and telling us they know best.

This commission has some good folks and it's because of the Governor change and not all the money spent by the lobbiest of azsfw. I'm tired of hearing about how we can't work with the 'commission' as if it was still 2008...

This bitterness has continued and created where we are at today, time to flush it and those who can't let it go.

Kent

 

[AZWALKER]

Thanks for the clarification Don. I think I've made my opinion known about the politics involved in this arena but I guess if that's the game, that's the game. We may have to learn to play the game to eventually change the rules. I appreciate you're involment in this discussion though Don. In the furute I hope you find yourself in a position where you are able to more freely voice your personal opinion on subjects like HB2072.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[DonMartin]

Kent:

I basically agree with your idea, but know as my good friend Dave Bruns says: It is what it is!"

Working in the wildlife arena is not always clean and crisp as we would like it.

There is and will continue to be a lot of give and take when it comes to all of this.

I have worked with G&F Commissions for years, and yes, they are the board that says what goes and what doesn't. For the most part is has been a good relationship, but with a few hiccups.

That is to be expected. We won't always agree.

But go back and see what Steve Chevront wrote. He is an outspoken critic and says what he feels. And in some areas I agree with him! His example of the management of the deer on the Kaibab is a prime example and cannot be overlooked.

Anyway, yes time to heal and move on.

Just don't forget how this "game" is/has been played!

Don Martin

 

[AZWALKER]

Kent, I don't think its that we can't work with the commission at all. I think the better approach is come into agreement with the dept and then go to the commission together, then we can be sure we will accpomplish what we want. There are orgs that are going striaght to the commission and causing major headaches for the dept. The real negotiating should be between the orgs and the dept. If we can work with the dept and agree on what we present to the commission, it won't matter who is on the commission because they would look pretty stupid not to go with anything the orgs and the dept agree on.

That being said, we need a slow steady approach to this. It takes time to make the cultural changes we're talking about.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[krp]

Don and Donnie, I think we are at another apex when it comes to the commission and the dept. How our next few years of working with the G&F depends on 'our' attitude and content of communication. To change the face of the commission you change the faces... and that was done. I like what I hear from them and the examples of cooperation and the direction they have gone with the night predator hunts, reversing the buck to doe ratios, ect. I like that they, including all dept personnel, are listening and sincerely considering what we have to say.

I don't know if we've had this level of opportunity before but I'm not wasting that opportunity on what happened in the past. I don't expect them to say yes to every issue but I expect they will have an honest conversation.

I do know that saying we need to fight them like Steve said, though maybe that wasn't what he meant intent wise, is a poor policy that we learned in 08... and definitely doesn't apply now.

Kent

 

[AZWALKER]

Kent, I agree 100 percent. I would add that if this momentum isn't organized, it will soon fall apart. The blade wil cut cleaner and deeper if its sharp.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[DonMartin]

OK, boys thouigh I am interested in your ideas on how to work together I am off for a couple of days meeting with the Parashant Partnership on behalf of the Mohave Sportsman Club in St. George UT.

This group features many different ideologies on how the AZ Strip is going to be managed in the future!

Not too many sportsmen or ranchers in this group, but a heck of a lot of GREEN folks.

If anyone out there wants to get involved, let me know. I have a room with a spare bed, and can assure you that you will learn a lot about how public lands are managed.

My cell is 928-303-9481.

Good luck guys!

Don Martin
Govt Liaison
Mohave Sportsman Club

 

[Zim]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-01-12 AT 07:35PM (MST)[p]>I would add that if this
>momentum isn't organized, it will
>soon fall apart. The blade
>wil cut cleaner and deeper
>if its sharp.


I really like reading about these proactive strategies. The way SFW wormed their way into the Utah machine was the wildlife board, and legislators. The strategy in Arizona should be to protect both these from being corrupted.


***********************************
Member RMEF, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club

 

[sagebrush]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-01-12 AT 06:44PM (MST)[p]Allen

17-202. Arizona game and fish commission appointment recommendation board

A. The Arizona game and fish commission appointment recommendation board is established consisting of members appointed by the governor pursuant to this section and section 38-211. The board shall consist of one person who has been a resident of this state for at least five years from each of the following qualifying groups:

1. One member designated by the board of directors of an organization that is qualified pursuant to section 501(c)(3) or 501(c)(4) of the internal revenue code, whose membership consists of a significant cross-section of wildlife conservation and sportsmen organizations from throughout the state, that does not have an affiliation or charter with a national wildlife conservation or sportsman's organization and that has been in existence for at least five years.

2. One member designated by the board of directors of an organization that is qualified pursuant to section 501(c)(3) or 501(c)(4) of the internal revenue code whose articles of incorporation or bylaws stipulate that the mission or purpose of the organization is to increase, sustain or otherwise conserve wild turkey, deer, elk, pronghorn (antelope), bighorn sheep, ducks, quail or fish and that has been in existence for at least five years.

3. One member designated by the board of directors of an organization that is qualified pursuant to section 501(c)(3) or 501(c)(4) of the internal revenue code whose articles of incorporation or bylaws define it as a sportsman's organization whose membership is primarily confined to a specific geographic area or region of the state or an organization described in paragraph 2 of this subsection or is a chapter or affiliate of a national sportsman's conservation or shooting organization and that has been in existence for at least five years.

4. One member designated by the board of directors of an organization that is qualified pursuant to section 501(c)(3) or 501(c)(4) of the internal revenue code that is statewide, whose membership is comprised of cattlemen or ranchers and that has been in existence for at least five years.

5. One member of the general public or one member of a nongame organization that is qualified pursuant to section 501(c)(3) or 501(c)(4) of the internal revenue code.

B. Except as otherwise provided by law, members of the board serve five year terms of office. A board member must maintain continuous membership in the organization the member represented when appointed during the entire term of office. The governor may remove a member of the board for inefficiency, conflict of interest, neglect of duty or misconduct in office and replace the member with an individual from the same organization represented by the former member. If a board member dies, resigns or is removed from office, the governor shall appoint an individual to fill the vacancy within thirty days from the same organization represented by the former member.

C. Three members of the board constitute a quorum. Meetings of the board shall be held at the Arizona game and fish department main office or at a regional office as determined by the board. The department shall issue a public notice at least one week before the meeting.

D. Members of the board are not eligible for compensation for their services or reimbursement of expenses.

E. The board shall assist the governor by interviewing, evaluating and recommending candidates to fill vacancies on the Arizona game and fish commission as follows:

1. After the governor's call for applications for an open position on the commission and the application period is closed, the governor shall deliver a final list of the applicants to the board within five days after the close of the application period. The board shall review the list of applicants and the application submitted by each applicant and proceed to interview, evaluate and recommend candidates as provided by this subsection.

2. If the board is considering candidates to fill the office of a commission member whose designated term is about to expire:

(a) On or before November 15 of each year, the board shall host a public forum to interview the commission candidates. The department shall issue a notice of the public forum at least five days before the scheduled date of the forum.

(b) On or before November 25, the board shall recommend at least two, but no more than five, candidates from the governor's final list of candidates.

(c) The governor must select and appoint a commissioner from the list submitted by the board.

3. If the board is considering candidates for a vacancy resulting from a commission member's death, resignation or removal from office:

(a) Not later than two weeks after receipt of the final list of commission candidates from the governor, the board shall host a public forum to interview the candidates. The department shall issue a notice of the public forum at least five days before the scheduled date of the forum.

(b) Within one week after the public forum, the board shall recommend at least two, but no more than five, candidates from the governor's final list of candidates.

(c) The governor must select and appoint a commissioner from the list submitted by the board.

F. The board shall assist the governor to identify commission applicants.






?2007 Arizona State Legislature.



BOARD MEMBERS
Phillip D. Townsend, Chair
Susan E. Chilton
W. Hays Gilstrap
Donald R. Johnson
Leonard G. Stinson

L. Gary Stinson was just confirmed for his five year term. I brought his confirmation hearing up as an issue here and asked everyone to contact their state senator but didn't get any traction. So Stinson is in for five years. I don't know how long Gilstrap we be on. I also don't know which board member respresents each of the five groups required to be represented. I kind of got the impression Stinson was vying for the unattached sportsmen seat when he gave his testimony before the Senate Natural Resources Committee.

Allen, I hope you can get a seat. The board starts the commissioner selection process in September, but I think the decision had already been lobbied for and made much earlier than that.

I wonder what organizations qualify for seat number 1 and how that language got into the statute.

 

[AZWALKER]

I think the motivation is great and is definitely a goal for future but I don't think anything can be done before the interview process starts.



"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[Zim]

Well this certainly explains why all this happened in AZSFW's 6th year.

**********************************
Member RMEF, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club

 

[krp]

http://www.azgfd.gov/h_f/documents/S-2 Commission Memo and Orders public draft.pdf

The Dept and commission has recommended another reversal... back to full year statewide lion hunting except the metro archery hunts.

They recommend a decrease in tags in 42/42jr by 75 and the combo 43s/44s by 100. This is something we asked for.

Kent

 

[AZWALKER]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-01-12 AT 09:10PM (MST)[p]did anyone notice the daylong, 3 lion bag limit for lions in all of the northern part of region 4?????? GREAT NEWS!!!!!


"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[yumatracker]

Stinson has not been confirmed by the full Senate. In committee the vote was 3-2-1.
If not confirmed he will sit on the recommenation board next fall but will be required to resubmit next year. Stinson was unopposed this year. Stinson has been on the board for the last two years.
The Secretary of State's office has a very long list of executive nominations. Some confirmed but most not yet confirmed.

 

[spcheuvront]

Gentleman;

At 65 years of age , and having worked for wildlife for the last 15 years , I'm sure this makes me part of the old guard.

I am torn between trying to tell you what my hard earned experence has taught me and letting you find out for yourself.

1 glaring fact is that the AZG&FD is more interested in managing their department than in managing the wildlife for tomorrow.

Remember , you need facts to make an arguement!

I would like to share what I have learned , and pass the batton on to the next generation.

I know when I was younger I didn't take advise from anyone trying to help me. If that is the case , I will gladly just step aside.

Steve Cheuvront

 

[OutdoorWriter]

Steve,

Rather than lead this thread astray of the topic, see this thread:

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID33/1922.html

TONY MANDILE

How To Hunt Coues Deer

 

[krp]

Steve, all info is welcome. If you've had successes share how you've expanded on that... or failures, how you've adjusted. If there is a specific concern raise it.

For the last couple months I've been breaking down the failures of azsfw, ADA, 2072, 109, G&F relationship, the individuals that have driven the process.

I've broken down the successes in the same period of YVRGC, AES ect, that didn't take the same path, continued to have a relationship with G&F and continued to make a positive impact for wildlife, youth/hunter retention ect.

We are going to work with the dept, we are going to be a solution finder before we worry about a banquet, we are going to make a difference on predators, catchments, youth retention, G&F relationship/respect... before we worry about our bank account or member count.

We are a new start and not too much interested in baggage from the past. That's what brought us to this point.

If there are just 8 of us, well we are already putting on a couple youth camps and catchments, we will pound some predators and make a positive impact. If more want to join, great we will make more of an impact.

Negativeness drives the politics and money behind 2072, fear mongering to control the masses, wedges driven between us and the G&F/politicians... That's the wrong path.

I don't care to try and be all things to all people to expand the membership numbers/dues... That's just noise and a distraction. Leave the ego at the door and bring your positive work attitude.

I'll be 55 in a couple weeks, the only difference between me and Donnie who is younger, is I will get the senior discount while he pays full price... kids... lol

Kent

 

[AZWALKER]

Yeah, Kent gets the old fart waiver.

I told Terry and Kent something thru email but I will paraphrase and share it here.

My age group, 30 to 40, has never been allowed by the older generations to have input on anything. My whole life, I've always got the "nod" but have been dismissed because I'm younger. Terry and Kent have not done that. They've allowed me and others to jump in and get involved. That speaks volumes to my age group. That is why I'm involved with them in this group. That's why I never joined the other groups. Now, George from Yuma Valley has been the same way as Terry and Kent. I haven't talked with Steve from AES that much but I don't get that feeling from him either.

There are a slew of young guys out there that don't want to have anything to do with the org out there for this very reason. I can tell you though, SWSA won't be that way!

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[yumatracker]

Years ago, YVRGC discovered the true value of much younger generations. We had board members who were in their late teens and early twenties. At that time we were a men only organization. Dads, Granddads and boys working all of the projects. Then we really opened things up and included women. What a great change for our organization. Truely based on family involvement. We lost a few of the old fuddy duddies but they were no longer as effective as they once had been. The younger generations are the key. My generation 60+ won't be able to be as active as we have been for much longer. I can write, I can speak and share my experiences but I won't be digging any trenches.
I am extremely proud to see the guys like Allen, Kent, Steve Terry, and meny more as well as the great women whose names I can't recall, stepping up and taking the leadership roles.

George

 

[AZStickman]

ttt