Health Care Reform 2009

NeMont

Long Time Member
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http://finance.senate.gov/healthreform2009/finalwhitepaper.pdf

The above link is to the White Paper of the Baucus plan for those interested in what is going to be proposed.
18-baucus_thumb.jpg


Baucus sets quick pace for reform in health care
Plan would require everyone to buy or have health insurance
By MIKE DENNISON
Gazette State Bureau

HELENA - U.S. Sen. Max Baucus said Tuesday that he hopes to have a health reform package on the Senate floor by early or mid-summer and that it will resemble a Massachusetts-style plan requiring everyone to buy or have health insurance.

Baucus, who called health care reform his "top priority," also said reform would be phased in over several years and that it won't add to the national deficit.

"My goal is to have a plan that covers it all," he said at a Washington news conference. "This is all (going to be) paid for. This will be phased in over time. Even after we enact the legislation, it may not take effect right away.

"Now it's time to move from first steps to giant steps. It's time to move forward on comprehensive health care reform." Baucus, a Montana Democrat, chairs the influential Senate Finance Committee and will be one of the lead senators on health care reform this year.

In a wide-ranging conversation with reporters from mostly national publications, Baucus said Congress has the commitment and support of President Barack Obama on health care reform, and that the public, business and governments want it to happen.

Baucus also repeated what's now become a familiar mantra for him: "Everything has to be on the table," but that he won't support a Medicare-for-all plan, which is tax-supported national health insurance for all.

"America is not ready for single-payer," Baucus said, calling Medicare-for-all by its more technical name. "We're not Europe; we're not Canada. We're Americans. I think this country does not want single-payer.

"We can make better use of our time trying to enact comprehensive (reform) somewhat similar to the Massachusetts plan."

The Massachusetts plan requires everyone to be covered by some sort of health insurance; those who don't have it through their employer or a public plan are required to buy it. If you can't afford the private health insurance you're required to buy, the state offers subsidies.

Critics of the Massachusetts plan have said it's turning out to be much more costly than expected and is not controlling costs.

Last November, Baucus released a "White Paper" outlining reforms he has in mind, resembling the Massachusetts plan. He said that outline was purposefully vague and that now it's time to "drill down a little bit" and start designing proposals.

Baucus told reporters several times that he didn't yet know the details or answers to some questions, such as what might be the "tipping point" on how much money will be available to pour into reform beyond the $630 billion set aside in the president's budget over 10 years.

However, he did say he might support reducing the tax break that individuals get on employer-provided health benefits, as a way of increasing tax revenue to support reforms. That break excludes the value of health benefits from taxed income.

"I think that tax provision should be on the table," Baucus said. "It's currently too aggressive. It skews the system. I do not favor eliminating it. But I do think it needs to be trimmed, limited."

Baucus also said one of the biggest challenges will be educating the public on the solutions and how they might work.

"People know it's a problem," he said. "People are paying too much; some families are going bankrupt. They know the problems, but they're just not quite sure what the solution is because it's so complicated. The problem is making people understand how these pieces fit together."
 
Sounds like he knows there is a problem, but has no clue as to what will fix it. Congress going about business as usual.

RELH
 
Families that are going bankrupt because of health insurance premiums are the ones that losing their jobs and paying COBRA prices. It has been the same issue since even during a booming economy. Insurance companies need to be regulated! Period! You and I should not be paying healthcare for someone that is chronically unemployed. Our system has been held hostage for a long time and we are never going to recover until somebody figures this out. Too many illegal aliens as well as US citizens that milk the system. If the new administration thinks that socialized medicine is the way to, they are dumber than I thought. Socialized medicine will reduce insurance premioms but it will allow for gorernmental taxation and you will end up paying pretty much the same for much less insurance. Socialized medicine is BAD MEDICINE no matter how you look at it.


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
At least he's thinking about it, but what is the difference between paying a high insurance premium for those who can't afford it and just paying their bill outright? unless insurance companies are non profit all you're doing is adding another hand in the pot.

Cutting the cost of health care is the ONLY solution, playing a nut shell game with the bill isn't going to help .
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-04-09 AT 12:07PM (MST)[p]AWHOLELOTTABULL is exactly what you are spouting. There is no more heavily regulated industry then the health insurance industry. Regulations add to the cost of health care not reduce it.

You rail against government paying for "socialized medicine" yet demand they interfer by regulation. That just shifts more costs onto the insured population.

I am curious to know how you are going to change the system via only regulating the insurance companies? If you only regulate one side of the equation it will only further increase everyone's costs.

Nemont
 
HD,

There are lots of "Non Profit" health insurance companies. Take a look at alot of the Blue Plans out there. I know in my home state they are organized as "Not for Profit Health Services Company". They are allowed by their enabling legislation to do some different things.

There is not a single part of this that reduces costs in anyway and the mandate is that they want this reform to cost and revenue neutral. Good luck with that.

It appears to me that democrats are going snatch defeat from the jaws of victory on this issue. This is perhaps their single biggest chance to impact everyone's future right here right now and instead they are looking at the Mitt Romney model of escalating health care costs.

Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-04-09 AT 05:36PM (MST)[p]Nemont,
I've worked in the healthcare industry for over 20 years now from ICU to ER. I'm not "spouting" anything that isn't true. You must work for an insurance company. Either that or you're an attorney. Over 50% of the patients seen in our ER are Medicaid patients. If you are so damn smart tell me how a single mother of 5 (with medicaid paperwork in hand for each) can come into the ER and be seen for common cold symptoms. Out of 5 kids there are 3 different fathers. Oh, and by the way, she needs to be seen too but she doesn't have any insurance. She doesn't have a job because according to her she has too many kids to work and the government takes good care of her. Oh, and by the way, she's pregnant again. Go ahead and tell me how stupid I am Nemont. You're the one full of shi++ if you think that socialized medicine is going to curb this type of behavior. If Obamas health care plan is even remotely close to what Clinton proposed then all it will do is give those mooching pieces of trash better insurance while decreasing yours. You can bet your liberal a** that the healthcare industry will go way down hill and you my friend will be lucky to get a doctors appointment within 6 months to get that other whole you're talking out of closed! Don't start throwing out personal attacks while you sit behind that computer screen. When you've been around it as long as I have then you can "spout" too.


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
Dear WholelotofBS,

You are so far off the mark. Stick around so you can learn something about the issues.

You said, " Insurance companies need to be regulated! Period!". Can you name a single insurance company that pays for somebody that goes to the ER for a cold? You make that statement then go on a rant about medicaid. Is medicaid an insurance company? And I am the dumb one? Come on.

You haven't spent any time on here debating with me if you think I am a liberal and want socialized medicine.

So you worked in an ER and know all about health care financing, docs and hospitals have less of an understanding of how health insurance is paid at the consumer level then even the government. They are great at providing the care, billing and collecting for their services but there is a huge disconnect between them and the financing of health care.

Explain exactly what regulation is needed to make sure health insurance companies reduce the cost of care? Let's hear your solution since apparently splinting broken bones and fixing up colds makes you an expert on how to finance health care. Don't tell me that solution is the free market because you already said regulation is the only answer period.

Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-04-09 AT 06:16PM (MST)[p]Yah Nemont, why don't you take time to learn what you're talking about, instead of knitting sweaters out of hemp, baking bean pies, tying your hair in dreadlocks, and playing hacky sack. You pinko liberal tree hugger.....



:)
 
awholelottabull- Im not exactly sure where you are coming from, the problem is I don't know of another industrialized country that has a worse health care system than ours, and I think all of them have more government involvement than ours, American health care is sick beyond belief, not only the cost but quality as well, Imagine spending nearly twice as much as the other countrys, and we don't even have computerized health records, the system is breaking not only our country, but a lot of hard working individuals. For people to defend the the way it is and blame everything on Illegals and unwed mothers is a joke, there are many other problems, all the way from greed to overly broad patents, I have never heard of a country with socialized health care requiring 6 months to get a doctors appointment, most of the people I have talked with from other countrys are quite happy with their governments handling of this extremely important service, when you travel or meet foreigners try talking to those people about this issue, I do, places from Austrialia to Canada and most everywhere in between have systems that serve the majority of citizens better. Averaged out we will spend $8000.00 on health care for every man, woman and child in America this coming year, amazing isn't it?
 
"Baucus also said one of the biggest challenges will be educating the public on the solutions and how they might work."

I'm ready. Educate us Mr. Baucus.

piper says that people like me are part of the problem. Well, let me tell you about me. I've carried medical insurance my entire adult life, either paid by me during the years I was self employed or through my employer. I don't even have a doctor. I've been to see a doctor three times in the past 26 years, and that was for a work related back injury and covered by State Comp. through the Company doctor. My wife goes once in awhile but I can't remember when we ever even reached our deductable for the year, so I pay for that myself.

The insurance companies get rich off of people like me, at least up until now. Something catastrophic could happen, of course, but that's why they call it insurance.

If I'm part of the problem, I apologize.

Eel
 
Eel- the reason I say you are part of the problem is because you repeat the same old worn out right wing dogma, the government is the problem, the government never solved anything, and so the problems just keep getting bigger, if we were to get rid of all laws protecting insurance companys, and let the lawyers clean house, if we were to let the people that couldn't pay die without medical help, if we were to get rid of pharmacutical laws,all laws related to the practice of medicine, like having to keep licenses, then things might work themselves out, but unless that happens,and it won't, just generally complaining about the government is only going to keep hurting this country and its citizens.
 
Piper,

Did you listen to what you just said. All the laws you listed were a result of what? The government.

The government doesen't do everything better like the democrats believe.

Nemont
 
Why would anyone put this much time into simple math?
Anybody look at what Politicians pi$$ away in running for office? Anyone ever look at what Politicians pi$$ away in Pork spending in specific States? Ever wonder where that money goes? Ever wonder where liability insurance premiums go??? Look that one up. You'll love this stuff when you get to investigating.
Ever wonder how much a physician has to pay out in Liability insurance for those trivial, stupid, moronic lawsuits???
Do the research,,,, track it all down to the greedy lawyers,,,, full circle, BS.
Then decide who you might want to vote for next time. Enjoy the next 4 years cause this is going to be a ride.
That's for "REAL" !!!
TIN
 
I'm with pipedream sounds like he wants to do away with the Govt., I'm all for it specially the current adminiistration.
 
> Averaged out we will
>spend $8000.00 on health care
>for every man, woman and
>child in America this coming
>year, amazing isn't it?


If O'Bama's budget was given out to the populace, instead of wasted - it would put over $12,000.00 U.S. in the pocket of every single man, woman and child on the PLANET not just America.
 
The only thing Obama has done is bring a big problem front and center, until he started with his dingy ideas nobody wanted do anything other than flip their lips. now if somebody doesn't come up with a better plan Obama has the power to put into place a bad one, this is the only way things get done.

If you want to blame this on Obama , what did Bush do to make it better? think about what you're saying once in a while.
 
wetmule -I guess your trying to be a sarcastic, but in case your not, health care costs in the US ,2.4 trillion,Obamas budget proposal,3.6 trillion, world population 6.8 billion, the math is easy,one thousand times one billion is a trillion.
 
OK - I did not say that there is not a problem. The U.S. government has created a monster when it comes to healthcare. We have sooooooo many dependant Americans on government healthcare, i.e. medicaid. And if you don't think that single parent families and illegal immigrants are not a huge problem your just damn dumb. I'm not saying that they are the sole problem, but that part of the problem is huge. We don't require a green card to come in and be treated. We are required by law to give each individual that walks through our door a medical screening exam (MSE). It's illegal to ask them if they are insured prior to the MSE. So, if they have something serious we have to treat them. You know they aren't going to pay for that treatment, so the hospital writes it off as a loss. Who do you think pays for that? You and me there cowboy! The example of the single girl that couldn't keep her legs shut is 100% truth. It's not a made up story and there are a lot more out there just like them. I understand that there are those that have fallen on hard times and those families or individuals should get some help. But, you know as well as I do that those are the people that will work to get back on their feet again. I will agree with you liberal folks and I do recognize there is a problem. YOu would have to have some serious blinders on to not be aware of that. Socialized medicine will only increase the problem and make those people who are already dependant on yours and my tax dollars even more dependant. All it will do is make those hard working families insurance worse and those free loaders insurance better. I work in it almost every day. I see the patient demographic sheets. I see what insurance companies patients have or don't have. I see how many people are on medicaid and you can tell which ones are milking the system. It's no wonder Obama got elected. He didn't even have to worry about foreign policy, abotion or gay marraige. All he had to do was say that the government was going to give you health care and a tax break even if you don't pay taxes. Hell, if I've never held a job that sounds like a great deal to me. I'd vote for him too.

Oh by the way Nemont, you wanted me to name one insurance company that pays for ER visits with common cold symptoms....Blue Cross Blue Shield, IHC, Altius, IASIS, Kaiser, etc, etc, etc,......sorry, I guess you just wanted one. Those are just the ones I see at some of the hospitals I work at. I am sure there are hundreds. Get your facts straight there sunshine.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
First off, Piper so you have not talked to anyone in another country that had to wait a extended time for health care services that are largly funded by the Gov.
I have and it was about 10-12 of them in different jobs in Canada. You need to get up there and talk to a bunch of them and see what they have to say. I mean talk to the workers whose tax dollars are paying for the system, not the ones at the old folks home who are enjoying the benifits without anything coming out of their checks.

I see now that they are looking at the health care system as provided by Kaiser. It seems that their doctors are on a fixed salary and they do not over schedule clients for followup doctor visits in order to pad the bill on visits that really do not require another visit to the doctor or hospital. Even get your lab tests results online. How many times have you been requested to come in to see the doctor again so he can just tell you that your lab results came back fine on your yearly exam and pad another office visit for you. Charge you seven-twelve bucks for a single aspiran. Or double the amount of IV's used prior to surgery and send the bill to your insurance company hoping you will never catch the error.
For any good health care system, it is going to require changes in the medical field, health insurance field and even with the ambulance chasing attorneys that make a habit of filing nusance lawsuits knowing the hospital will take the cheaper route and settle out of court.
I would like to see civil lawsuits change to if you file a lawsuit and loose in court, you are required to pay the costs for the defendant to fight your lawsuit. Goodbye ambulance chasing shysters. Never will happen, too many attorneys in congress, state & federal that make the laws.

RELH
 
Unfortunately skyrocketing medical costs are a result of the classic all roads to hell are paved with good intentions. Some of us are old enough to remember the days when the family physician would come to your house. When a weeks stay at the hospital might set you back, but you wouldn't have to mortgage your house.

Medicare and Medicaid became a cash register for the medical industry. Hospitals could pad their charges and feed off the tax payer trough. Politicians didn't care over the decades using the "new hospitals" they brought to their cities as milestones for their political careers.

In turn their constituents applauded these new medical facilities with open enthusiasm. As the cost of medical attention started to skyrocket, the medical insurance companies started to make less profit. Insurance companies started data mining in hopes of disqualifying their insured or simply declining insurance. Hence HIPPA was born to protect patients and the general public against Insurance company data-mining.

I had quite a few hospitals that were past clients of mine. After years of seeing blanket P.O.'s come across my desk I noticed one common characteristic, the amounts were always 4-5 times more than our annual total billing. For instance I would have an account that 5K a year. The blanket P.O. that I would receive would have maximum amount of 20K.

I asked a client one day about it and I was told that every department at the hospital has to fight for their annual budget. So it has become standard operating procedure to pad the blanket P.O.'s as a way to ensure and maintain that department's budget.

As a vendor it did not really bother me, as an employer paying out high comp and high premiums it really ticked me off. I have also read about non-profit community hospitals simply playing syntax games by cloaking the word profit into phrases like excess revenue streaming. This cloaked retained profit stays within the coffers of the hospital instead of using those funds to open up new low cost acute care centers which were promised to the community.
 
FTW - you are exactly right about the medical industry padding the charges. I don't know if any of you remember several years ago when several hospitals got into some really big trouble for medicare fraud for doing exactly what you're talking about. The regulations have gotten tougher to prevent that and a hospital really doesn't want to lose the medicare reimbursement because the vast majority of the patients are on medicare or medicaid. That would be the equivalent of the camo industry losing Realtree. The reimbursements for procedures are down almost 40% now and the big HMO's and Insurance companies are cutting their reimbursements all the time. I have worked in some ER's where socialized medicine is almost a reality because of the medicaid and transient populations they treat. The wait time at some of these ER's is in excess of 15 hour average. A lot of these cases could be seen on an outpatient basis at a local clinic. The patient knows that the ER has to see them where a private clinic or physician can turn them away. If we get socialized medicine forced on us you will have to schedule your doctors appointments 6 months to a year in advance. The only way to fix this problem is to cut people off that are societal slugs. These blood sucking, money sucking slugs of society need their own insurance policy. I don't care at this point if we have to pay for it or not. Make them get a job. Create jobs for them that pay them in benefits. Don't just send it in the mail. Make them go somewhere to pick it up, like the side of the highway with a trash bag and an orange vest. Hell, part of my pay is calculated in benefits. I work for mine, why should they just get theirs handed to them? I'm telling you right now, if we end up with socialized medicine you had better hope and pray for health like never before because your emergency won't be any more of an emergency than that other millions of folks trying to get in to see a doctor. It will also put a lot of people out of work in the medical profession. I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure we don't want any more unemployment.


It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
I get the fact we have bums running up huge bills , and many times for no reason, I agree 100%. so what do you do about it? we're going to give these people free health care, done deal there's no way around it, so let's stop pretending there's anything we can do about it and figure out how to do it cheaper.

You're against government clinics for the non paying folks , so what's your solution?
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-09 AT 10:13AM (MST)[p]Wholelotabull,

I went to my sources in Utah, which is where I assume you work, to verify that an insured person is not allowed to enter through the ER for non emergent care and still have it paid for by the insurance company. It appears that I was correct, in every policy I could find the ER charge was not reimbursed unless there was an emergency situation almost all of the policies read the same about: sudden and serious and/or life or limb. The doctors charge may be paid but for those covered with private insurance that went to the ER the ER room charge is still not a covered service.

There are a whole lot of different approaches out there that can help with the extreme high cost of care. I am most familiar with the German system of managed competition and government subsidies to ensure 100% coverage. It works for them and they have a very high number of both legal and illegal immigrants who are Greeks, Turks and Middle Easterners.

While no system is going to be perfect some can be workable. Socialism is here already in a huge way and some of the most conservative people in this country are the biggest consumers of Federal dollars. If we are going to let the good be the enemy of the perfect then we will never get anywhere.

Funny that inside the proposed plan is something that Obama and the democrats railed about to McCain. I will let those with inquiring minds find it.

Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-09 AT 10:14AM (MST)[p]AWLB,

If there was ever an arguement for illegal immigrant amnesty I think this is it. Many proposals have come to surface including appending a fee to those wishing to apply for amnesty. This would bring a large percentage of uninsured non-citizen emergency room visitors into the system.

It's estimated that there are some 12 million illegals from Mexico and South American countries. If 10 million of those apply for amnesty and paid a fee of say $3,000.00, it could generate 3O billion to assist in offsetting their associated healthcare costs and provide low cost care facilities as an alternative to Hospital Emergency Rooms.

In turn hospitals could hopefully lower their care costs since they would no longer have to subsidize 100% of the cost. Yet we all know the medical industry would simply come up with another rationalization as to why 2 aspirin cost $20.00.

The one thing that is not an alternative is to deny medical attention. Doing this endangers the health of the entire population and could lead to the spread of whooping cough and other communicable diseases.
 
Nemont,
I'm not an expert on insurance issues but I do know what I see every day I work. We see people everyday for things that could be seen in a clinic. I really didn't want to go here but I will to prove a point. The majority of the patients we see that are uninsured or on medicaid are hispanic. These people continually seen in the ER for non emergent things. In fact, I have yet to intubate a hispanic person in this ER prounounce one dead. The ER staff call this "hispanic panic". At least 80% are uninsured and DO NOT pay. We have made fervent attempts at educating them to go to clinics for some of the non-emergent things but to no avail. I would think that with your knowlege of the subject this would bother you, or maybe you like paying for other peoples health care. One of the big reasons health care is so expensive is because of the outstanding debt that most hospitals carry for unpaid bills. It's a lot more complex than people understand or think. I work about as close to it as possible and I don't understand it all or have all the solutions. I do know that socialized medicine WILL NOT be the answer. We will end up with health care resembling a third world country before long. We obviously have a difference in oppinion and you seem to be educated in the insurance part of it and I in the medical part. It is obvious that we don't understand where each other is coming from which is probably the same reason healthcare is where it's at today.

As for the statement that I am not for free healthcare in clinics, that is simply not true. I have very good friends that operate clinics for just that reason and I have donated my personal time in these clinics. Unfortunately they are far and few between.



It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
awholelottabull- why do you say single payer, aka socialized healthcare will not work, when I know that it works better than our free market system does, at least in all the other countrys I can think about, because we are different in America? or is it because its better to spend 30% or so overhead on insurance companys, companys that have a huge incentive to not cover procedures to not pay or pay as little as possible? do you know medical professonals in other countrys? if so are they being cheated, or are they unhappy about their profession, I really want to know why you think private insurance is the better way? I have said this before, but if we as a country spent 9.5% of GDP on healthcare, like France does, instead of 16% of GDP like we did, that would save consumers more than 800 billion a year, those figures are before the meltdown of course, and its interesting to note France is rated number 1 in the world for their quality of healthcare.
 
I went to the sportsman show last night, it was really slow and I talked quite a while with a pair of outfitters from BC sharing a booth. they were real nice guys and after we got done talking about the whitetail hunt I think I'm going to take we talked about the economy and such. I asked them for their opinion about the health care system they have, like EVERY Canadian I've ever talked about this with they were happy with what they have. they said if you're self employed you pay a flat $100 a month for yourself and your family, I told him what my wife and I paid for our 80% co pay with a $5000 decuctable and they about choked, when I told him neither one of us had ever met the deductable and we still paid that they laughed and said they just wouldn't do it.

They said getting into the doctor was no problem, non life threatening operations could take as much as 3-4 months but serious issues are delt with very fast. I asked them if they thought most of the people they knew felt the same, they agreed without a doubt they would.

So since I've talked to a number of Canadians and have yet to find one to back up the horror stories we're fed down here I've come to the realization it's bull crap. I'm not sure socialized health care is the answer for us but I can say it's working for Canada. I can't think of a dozen Americans happy with our system and I know a bunch who aren't, so if anyone wants to say Canada's system is a failure lets see some proof.
 
You need to talk to a few more Canadian's about their health care, it's not as rosey as you and Michael Moore seem to think it is.

The major problem with our health care system are the illegal's who abuse it. Turn them away and send them back to where they came from. We don't owe them a visit to the doctor.

Why do so many Canadian's travel to the USA for medical treatment?


Other Nations Health Care

Of course HD will debunk this editorial as bull crap also, since a conservative wrote it.
 
What you can't seem to grasp is we can't afford to pay for our system much longer, it's killing our business and how much longer can the average American pay his own premium? not only do we have a higher percentage of people not able to pay but the returns on investments the insurance companies make during a depression aren't worth a crap so thety're forced to raise rates. I realize you're not going to get this soaked in but doing nothing isn't an option much longer.

The Canadians didn't say they had a perfect system but it works, ours is not perfect and it's not going to work much longer. You suck up the crap about how bad Canadians have it like a Hoover deluxe, take the time to ask people from there if they'd trade for our system, don't just run with it that since it isn't perfect it's a failure. you also can't grasp that I'm not saying we should follow Canada's lead, I'm saying we should study it and keep something like it on the table as an option. believe me now or believe me later, we will do something different, we have no choice.
 
pick one country and then try to make it sound as bad as possible? typical, Do you know this as fact, "so many Canadians come to America for our beloved health care"? I have been to Canada many times and talked to plenty of Canadains, same thing, they are much happier with theirs, you think ours is good or the best? travel a little talk to people, I cannot believe anyone would even try to defend American health care, its a sick cruel joke, and a costly one. why don't you ask some Americans about the bills they recieve? why don't you explain to me why so many Americans go without? why don't you tell me why the sicko bought and paid for politicians give billions of dollars in tax breaks to big employers and give nothing to self employed individuals, nothing fires me up as much as listining to people like addicted gambler Bill Bennett tell us health care is great in the USA. Moral Majority, yea right. illegals are a tiny part of the problem, if you don't want them here, quit giving them jobs, turning people away from hospitals is not very Christlike is it? or maybe thats the moral American solution.
 
If someone broke into your house, and expected you to provide for them, would you? What is so "not very Christlike" about turning illegals away from hospitals? They broke the law to get here and should not receive any benefits because of it. They are stealing from the US taxpayer, theft is not very Christlike.

Why don't they pass tort reform on lawsuits? This would lower the insurance the doctors have to carry to protect themselves from these lawsuits and they would not have to pass this cost on to the patient.

I'm not defending the American system, but I think there are things that can be done to it to lower the costs. I agree with you on the big employeers getting the tax breaks and we individuals none. Why can't we be put in a group by state or something to give us a group rate? I think there are many things that can be tried, if our elected one's would look at it and not try to push their Socialist agenda down our throats. Of course you have the one's with their mouth open already and thinking that they deserve a bigger bite.

I don't think we need to try and copy some other countries system, which is not working as well as many believe. I have lived in Canada for a few years while working there, I have seen their system and talked to people I worked with. I have seen the Canadians in the hospitals on the high line in Montana. Why are they there? Because they could get in the hospital and not have to wait for treatment.

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill
 
I just wish the illegals weren't here, but I can't imagine not helping anyone with health emergencys or pregnancys,I guess tort reform could help some but It seems to me the problems are really complicated and going to be hard to solve , its the middle east of our domestic problems
 
We're not going to deny anyone treatment, lets just put that behind us because it's a stupid argument.

It's time to put this capitolist or nothing nonsense to rest, we're not talking about cars and houses here we're talking about life and death. do you want to just sell care to the highest bidder? no you don't like that do you? because you may not have deep enough pockets and that would be different. if you're really a capitolist whats more fair than an auction? what's your life worth to you? bid to win! in a civilized society we don't let the poor die on the hospital steps because they can't afford treatment, end of story. if you're dumb enough to think you're not paying for the poor in your premiums and the cost business pays isn't getting passed on to you then you're not qualified to comment.

WE ARE PAYING, the problem is we're not paying enough so the cost to us who do pay is climbing. so , how do we get the cost lowered? and how do we pay for the poor in a more structured mannor? everything should be on the table even if it isn't a capitolist dream come true.
 
Piper & H-Dude,
I think we can all agree that the system is broke and has been broke for some time. If WE are going to change the system then there are a few things that have to be done on the ground level. The cost of medical school is astronomical to the point that most physicians coming out of school today are spending the first 10-15 years of their careers paying for their loans. Add to that the extremely high price of malpractice insurance and you have one of your major factors of expensive healthcare. Physicians are becoming extinct in the U.S. and will continue to do so until a major reform takes place. I think Piper mentioned the French Healthcare model. I think that's the only thing the French do right. It's not quite socialized medicine because you still have the ability to choose which physician you see. The physician only makes about double what the average lay person makes vs 6 times in the U.S., but there are tort restrictions put into place so the physician doesn't have to fight frivolous law suits, malpractice insurance is a fraction of what it costs in the U.S. and medical school is tuition FREE. What people don't realize is that in this system, they are allowed to turn non-citizens away if they are not paying for their healthcare. You are required to be a citizen to qualify for medical treatment. How do you think this would go over in the U.S. There are 100's of thousands of illegal aliens in the U.S. getting free healthcare. They alone, have a huge impact on the price of health care. I'm not so Republican/Conservative to ignore the fact that we need some help. I don't see how EVERYONE is going to get healthcare without somebody paying for it. You know damn good and well that the people that aren't paying for healthcare right now sure won't pay for it in the future. Even if it's $100/month. You and I will still get taxed somewhere to pay for the freeloaders because, just like you guys said, we can't turn anybody away.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
I can agree with that, but the solution to illegals is deportation not just to deny them health care. if there here we're going to spend money on them, simple as that.

Illegals in the health care welfare line are a huge problem in California, and a problem in many states but even with zero wetbacks we still need to change things. the guy working at the feed store for minimum wage with no insurance can't pay any better than the wetback can,there are lots of folks like this so we still have a problem.
 
This is a good article for you that Canada's and the UK's health care is so much better than ours.

10 Surprising Facts about American Health Care

Fact No. 1: Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers

Fact No. 2: Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians.

Fact No. 3: Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries.

Fact No. 4: Americans have better access to preventive cancer screening than Canadians

Fact No. 5: Lower income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians.

Fact No. 6: Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the U.K.

Fact No. 7: People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed.

Fact No. 8: Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians.

Fact No. 9: Americans have much better access to important new technologies like medical imaging than patients in Canada or the U.K.

Fact No. 10: Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations
 
Most of these " facts " can be disputed but there are two major points I see.

One, Canada has WAY more smokers than the US does, sometimes it seems like everyone smokes there, so do the math.

Two, nobody is saying we don't have great health care, we're saying we can't afford it. where is the fact that pays the bill? that's the one I'm interested in.
 
"Two, nobody is saying we don't have great health care, we're saying we can't afford it. where is the fact that pays the bill? that's the one I'm interested in."

Nobody? Really nobody says we don't have great healthcare?
It seems to me that piper is saying just that.



piper (789 posts)
Mar-04-09, 06:46 PM (MST)
9. "RE: Health Care Reform 2009"
awholelottabull- Im not exactly sure where you are coming from, the problem is I don't know of another industrialized country that has a worse health care system than ours, and I think all of them have more government involvement than ours, American health care is sick beyond belief, not only the cost but quality as well, Imagine spending nearly twice as much as the other countrys, and we don't even have computerized health records, the system is breaking not only our country, but a lot of hard working individuals. For people to defend the the way it is and blame everything on Illegals and unwed mothers is a joke, there are many other problems, all the way from greed to overly broad patents, I have never heard of a country with socialized health care requiring 6 months to get a doctors appointment, most of the people I have talked with from other countrys are quite happy with their governments handling of this extremely important service, when you travel or meet foreigners try talking to those people about this issue, I do, places from Austrialia to Canada and most everywhere in between have systems that serve the majority of citizens better. Averaged out we will spend $8000.00 on health care for every man, woman and child in America this coming year, amazing isn't it?
 
Ransom, I am going to force feed you the Kool Aide. Watch for mister moore's 'documentary' to arrive at your mail box. He has a video filled of undisputaable facts to show that piper is 'dead' on. Go bury your head in the sand if you must overton but remember, the closest ermergency room that can help should you get sand in your lungs is in Cuba.

498a6f395e505405.jpg
 
This won't be popular, but this is what I think. First, top of the line health care is not a right. If you can't afford health care, I don't have a problem with a basic Government clinic available to everyone, but don't expect expensive or heroic treatment. I remember when a lot of old people got sick and died at home. Now they go see the doctors, where they chance getting seriously sick if they aren't sick yet, then they go in the hospital and lose their remaining life savings to doctors and hospitals and insurance companies. That happened to my dad 25 years ago and my mom still suffers financially from it. I don't think insurance should be paid or partly paid by an employer. Pay me, and let me go buy insurance directly THAT I WANT, and I can find what I'm willing to pay for at a much better deal than we are getting now. The 3rd party payer system doesn't work. The 3rd party payer system is why costs are out of control. Government control will not help. I truely believe Government is the problem, not the solution.
-- Bob
 
I've worked damn hard to get to where I'm at in life. I've been to a lot of school, sacraficed, got student loans and done all kinds of things to get to where I'm at now. I'm far from being one of the very wealthy but I've got a great job with awesome insurance. I'm also the HR guy that oversees our plans. Our company had really taken pride in the way we care for our employees.
It really ticks me off when people say that our plans are too good and that to make it more fair for everyone we should be punished. Tax our plans because we have great healthcare and we should subsidize those without. Thats basically what it comes down too. I think there has to be another way.
 
But how would you feel if you lost your job and couldn't afford the $900 a month for your family insurance? lots of people are finding themselves right there today. you have a job and I can afford my premium but what about hard working folks who can't? the cost is just too high anymore and that's all there is to it.

I do agree those without DON'T have the right to the best money can buy, but we're not a 3rd world nation that chucks them out on the street. how do we get the best care a reasonable amount of money will buy for those in need is the question. I have yet to hear one good reason that leaving the system as it is for those who can afford it and free or low cost government clinics for those who can't isn't the best way to do this. we're still going to pay, but maybe this would give us a route to pay less.
 
"But how would you feel if you lost your job and couldn't afford the $900 a month for your family insurance?"

Thanks to the new COBRA laws 65% of that $900 is now covered by the previous employer who has to get reimbursed by the Govt.... Terry
 
>
>Thanks to the new COBRA laws
>65% of that $900 is
>now covered by the previous
>employer who has to get
>reimbursed by the Govt.... Terry

Only until Oct 1st of 2009. After that it reverts to the old COBRA law.

Nemont
 
"Only until Oct 1st of 2009. After that it reverts to the old COBRA law."



yep... and only for companies with 15 or more employees.... Terry
 
nope for anyone employing 20 or more employees for at least 6 months out of the past 12 months.

Nemont
 

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