here is your Answer to Arizona Results

WTF!!!

It should affect next years draw if anything! Not this one!! This really sucks, now not only do we have to wait longer, but our odds of drawing are even less for residents.

Just venting.
 
This is absolutely horrible! How can the court expect it to be enforced this year? Game and Fish should have just claimed this year's draw was already done, and then dealt with it next year. guess we won't find out until next week, if then.
 
I can not believe they did this right before the draw, how unfair. Now what? Our chances have just gotten worse!! You bet I will be at this meeting!!!!

Wildlife News
July 15, 2004 Court ruling will affect fall draw for elk and deer A decision by a federal judge will affect impending fall hunt draw results for Arizona's elk and deer hunters.

U.S. District Judge Robert Broomfield, in a ruling issued July 13 in the case of Montoya vs. Shroufe, declared Arizona's 10 percent cap on nonresident hunt-permit tags unconstitutional. Broomfield also ordered the state to refrain from enforcing the cap.

Because the cap plays a role in the drawing system used to determine which hunters will receive a permit to hunt bull elk and antlered deer north of the Colorado River, the judge's ruling forces the Game and Fish Commission to find a method to distribute this year's fall hunt permits in a way that won't discriminate against out-of-state hunters.

The commission will consider its options in a special telephone meeting to be held Friday, July 16, noon, at the Wildlife Building on the Arizona State Fairgrounds. At the meeting, the commission will be briefed on the options and is expected to vote to direct the department how to proceed. The Wildlife Building is located at 1826 W. McDowell Rd.; members of the public who wish to attend the meeting are advised to avoid construction by entering the gate at 19th Avenue and Encanto.

Hunters applying for permits to hunt bighorn sheep, buffalo, antelope, turkey and javelina are not affected by this ruling.

Montoya vs. Shroufe began in 2000, when Lawrence Montoya, a self-described professional hunter from New Mexico who also runs a guide service, sued the Game and Fish Department claiming that Commission Rule 12-4-114E, which established the 10 percent cap on nonresident hunt permits, violated the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution.

In yesterday's ruling, Judge Broomfield agreed and ordered the department to immediately stop using or enforcing the 10 percent cap.

The department will keep hunters informed by posting news about the fall draw on its Web site, azgfd.com.
 
Isn't Montoya connected to USO outfitters? Regardless, next time you see Mr. Montoya or his cronies here in Arizona tell them thanks. The already horrible resident draw odds just got a lot worse. This suit was not filed because Montoya was concerned that the average middle class out-of-state hunter wasn't getting a fair shake here in Arizona. Rather, this lawsuit was filed and prosecuted so that Montoya and others (who undoubtedly funded the lawsuit)can have more clients and charge them five to ten thousand dollars a piece to shoot an elk on public land in Arizona. Also, you guys in other states with similar preference systems, i.e. Utah, watch out, your next.
 
ohhhhhhhhhh myyyyy. Is this the start???????? This is not a good sign. Looks like next year there will be more non-residents hunting in all states than there will be residents. I'm a resident in New Mexico and I would like to say one thing about Mr. Montoya: Is he a f-ing moran?
 
Its a screwed up deal considering Montoya is a New Mexico resident and they have a cap on tags also. Non guided out of staters are allowed 10% and guided out of staters get 15% for a total of 25%. I'm fine with AZ doin the same as NM because it still gives the outfitters more of a chance to book some clients while allowing us instaters to have a little bit of a chance to shoot our own animals. You don't see that guy lobbying to get NM's cap lifted for his state do you??? Hmmmmm. I feel that if it was a federal judge like the article indicates, then it should be a nationwide decision for all states with a cap. How can in be considered unconstitutional in just AZ and not the rest. Just my $.02.
 
3res, the reason their not complaining about the cap in NM, is that is works in their favor. 1 in 4 tags are given to non-residents, giving non-residents a better chance at drawing. And it's not a maximum number, it's a garuanteed number. The same people that had this done in NM are the ones who did this in AZ. It's not a moral issue with them. They'll sit on whichever side of the fence puts more money in their pockets.
 
I am going to contact Montoya and ask if it was worth it? The thrill of the hunt has been replaced by the thrill of the DOLLAR$$$$ Thanks USO Outfitters for the fun.
Here's the contact info.
Professional Licensing Service
4204 NDCBU Taos, New Mexico 87571
(800)-845-9929
FAX - (505) 758-1744
[email protected]
 
My question is, is the lawsuit for a guaranteed % of tags or a higher limit of tags? If it is a guaranteed % of tags then yes we are screwed NOW. If it is a higher cap then we will not see it as bad for a year or two. That is when we will be flooded with out-of-state applications.
 
How about we include the azgfd in this discussion. They are absolutely spineless and we hunters need to get some commissioners in that actually share the publics opinion. These commissioners have not done their part to avoid this problem, expecially for this year.

The azgfd is right up their with Mr. Montoya and USO when it comes to worth. Hunter's lets make some noise. This has gone to far. If we had a game and fish that cared, we wouldn't run into these types of problems. Notice how they stay completely quite about the draw results until it is too late. They didn't have the balls to let us hunters know what was up. This is a bunch of crap and someone should sue the game and fish when the draw results aren't posted by July 23rd. It is sure tough on the guides when they don't even know what the hell they need to plan for this fall because of our slugg game and fish.

Make some noise against uso and our very own dike apppointed game and fish commission.
 
I see the above reply lists USO and Mr Montoya's e-mail address. May be a good opportunity to welcome Mr. Montoya to Arizona and offer a handshake, drink or ?? during their Arizona visits. Just a thought.

from the "Heartland of Wyoming"
 
I believe Montoya is an employee of USO and was used by Boy George to file the lawsuit since George has had so many problems with the law in the past. Or could be that Montoya is one of Boy George's alias'. This is the worst possible news for AZ hunters. The thing NM fails to mention about New Mexico is that NR without guides are limited to 10% max of the tags and with guides get 12%. They are tweaking every state to work in their favor based on the circumstances surrounding the draw in that state. OH NO! Here comes the Utards.
 
I believe it has been appealed already but can be re-appealed?? If this is what is in store for future AZ permits then the GF needs to give residents preferential bonus point treatment??? I say 10 points per resident will work.... ;)
 
If we can't limit the number of non-resident hunters in Arizona on Elk and Deer, then why can we on antelope, sheep, bison, javelina and turkey? That makes no sense. It says in the ruling that those species are not affected by the ruling.

If they win and it looks like they may have, then I would suggest that the AZGFD charge fees like other states for their non resident license fees. Lets put a non resident elk tag at $1200.00, a deer tag at $750.00 and sheep at $3500.00. Oh, and we should not allow non-residents to apply with out upfronting the money.

KK
 
What a joke. It doesn't say anything about coues deer though. They need to jack the prices of out of state permits sky high then.
 
Huh SDR3? I'm not sure where you're coming from....

Have you ever met or talked to Sue Chilton? I have, and I can assure you that she absolutely cares about the opinions of the hunters in this state!

What the hell do you think the G&F was supposed to do? Rush the draw to avoid this problem? Do you seriously think that they were "keeping quiet about the draw results until it was too late"? C'mon man, that's conspiracy theory stuff..... ;-) They never post the results much before the middle of July, so I don't see how you can claim they were holding out this year... Also, "they didn't have the balls to let us hunters know something was up"? What were they supposed to do? Is it their job to keep us up to date on court matters? What are you going to sue them for if you don't get the results by the 23rd; making you mad??? I don't think that's grouds for a law suit... Too funny man.... :)

If you want to include them in your conversation, then you should go to the meeting tomorrow to share your opinion. I'll be there for sure!

S.

:)
 
>If we can't limit the number
>of non-resident hunters in Arizona
>on Elk and Deer, then
>why can we on antelope,
>sheep, bison, javelina and turkey?
>That makes no sense. It
>says in the ruling that
>those species are not affected
>by the ruling.

Arizona doesn't cap those hunts. Therefore, the ruling does not effect them.
 
There has to be some way to defend the statute of non-res cap numbers. Every state has some type of non-resident quota or restriction in place. Its there for a reason, to give the tax paying hunters in their home state the best chance to hunt in their home state. Even if they divided the qoutas to 50/50 it drops the draw odds for a resident from bad to dismal.
If they do this in Arizona I think every state should have to follow suit.
I do not know how much of a fight our AZG&F dept is going to put up because of the red tape involved in all government agencies, state and federal, but I believe they new this was coming and should have completed the draw much earlier and saved face for at least this year. Our Judicial system is no better when it comes to cases like this also, it is all about politics and not law or good common sense.

Sorry for rambling and no disrespect intended to non residents, but this situation is nothing but a case of greed started by an outfitter who is nothing short of a criminal himself, and just trying to manipulate the system for personal gain.
 
This is bad news and I am a Non-resident from Utah with 5 points for Arizona Archery elk this year! I never really thought I would ever draw 1 or 2 elk tags in Arizona over my lifetime. Am 42 now, still not drawn a tag, but that is o.k.
I should in no way have the same or better odd's than residents of hunting elk in other states. Yes, it is tough to draw an out of state tag, but once I do it should be the hunt of a lifetime and I hope that I would receive some guidance from residents on the unit I may draw. Likewise if someone draws on of Utah's coveted elk tags, I will give all the help and phone numbers available to make "your" hunt the best you could ever have and will probably ever have in this state if things stay as they currently are. Heck, I have 8 resident points in Utah and still have not drawn an archery elk tag here. I play by the rules and that is o.k.!
I do not like the talk of raising the tag fees!!!! For anyone!!! Utah is raising our resident limited entry elk tag to $280 next year!!! I have the money for it and for $1000 or $1200 to hunt Arizona each year, but it is not right!!! What about those who do not and what about the future of hunting?
Why should I have better odd's because I am a Non-resident and may will be willing to spend some money. $1000 for a two week limited entry Arizona archery elk hunt sounds cheap for what some spend on other vacations.
Let us know what we can do to help in Arizona.
This is not just about Arizona, it is about all of us.
Alan
 
I am from good old California. I thought about this a bit and I think it a bad deal for you guys. Its not fair. Sure the land is owned by all of us, but its where you live. If I was given the vote, I would vote in favor of quotas on non-res tags. Jeez! just this state alone could steam roller you guys. I also don't think raising the price will stop it. I wouldn't stop me only cut my competition. You guys better fight hard!
 
RE: here is the ANSWER

What AZGFD could (SHOULD) do is make NON-residents ineligible for bonus points. Or grant each application additional bonus points for residents only. Don't worry about tilting the number of tags available to non-res hunters, worry about tilting the odds in the favor of residents. I'm not suggesting ridiculous points for being a resident, but at least one extra (plus your hunter safety) giving you a total of 3 entries in the draw. Maybe even make the hunter safety a resident only points benefit.

Any thoughts on this?


JG
 
RE: here is the ANSWER

>What AZGFD could (SHOULD) do is
>make NON-residents ineligible for bonus
>points. Or grant each application
>additional bonus points for residents
>only. Don't worry about tilting
>the number of tags available
>to non-res hunters, worry about
>tilting the odds in the
>favor of residents. I'm not
>suggesting ridiculous points for being
>a resident, but at least
>one extra (plus your hunter
>safety) giving you a total
>of 3 entries in the
>draw. Maybe even make the
>hunter safety a resident only
>points benefit.
>
>Any thoughts on this?
>
>
>JG

Never happen, just asking for more lawsuits. I wouldnt be surprised if this opens up a whole can of worms because now more guys will be sueing for price discrimination, outfitter preference discrimination (BTW USO thinks thats fair in thier state, go figure) and everything else. I can say this, it will be interesting. I do feel for you AZ residents. Take it out on USO if you like, greed will get them one way or another. I never had respect for them. I drew that Valle videl tag all on my own in NM but yet the A-hole calls me up on the phone telling me i should fork out a few grand to hunt with them professionals when i get there because they have the equipment and skill to do it right on such a limited tag..... LOL
 
RE: here is the ANSWER

First off, it's not everyone from NM doing this. It is Mr. Montoya. I am from NM and I agree that it is "unconstitutional," BUT, it is also "unconstitutional" to people that cannot afford the outrageous non-resident prices for tags. Do you see them changing that. Hell no. I do not think they should change the laws. This is a bunch of BS.
 
RE: here is the ANSWER

I sure hope as many people as can turn out for the commission meeting. I also hope this whole board takes this very seriously. I see tons of posts wanting things managed better in everyones "home state" but all of us will lose if something is not fixed here in AZ. Remember Kaibab deer dont just roam in AZ. Also if this issue is final in AZ, then most of the other Western States will see the same thing happen within a couple years. We need a unified front from all people on this one........ Allen Taylor......
 
RE: here is the ANSWER

TOLD YA GUYS WON'T HAPPEN FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER!

RACKMASTER
 
RE: here is the ANSWER

LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-04 AT 09:16PM (MST)[p]If you read this on the coues forum then skip it but,

I see that he proudly lists Realtree, Swarovski, Primos, Knight Rifles, Crooked Horn packs, Polaris ATV's and Barnes Bullets as sponsors in his brochure. Personally, it makes me sick that I own a pair of Swaro's and all future purchases of optics will be Zeiss or Leica. The same goes for all these other products, there are alternatives to all of them that offer equal if not better products for the money. I think each of these company's should know how Arizonan outdoorsmen and women feel about their support of this joker...

Bret Mattausch
 
Is Arizona the only state to restrict non resident tags to a predetermined percent of the total tags? How could this even become a issue?We live here,we pay taxes,we buy sportsman products that go to the conservation of wildlife habitat.Why is it illegal for us to have priority choice to hunting in our home state?Does USO outfitters normaly pay a percent of their income to AZ. for these previously stated reasons?Is GREED a factor?!!! I would like to meet Mr. Montoya in the woods with his clients.Accept the fact,Montoya,AZ. game and fish has done a outstanding job on our wildlife management,we have the big boys roaming our woods,not yours.Leave New Mexico,gain an
AZ. residency,and you to can hunt here. But I think you have no regard for us AZ. residents or our wildlife,you only love the dollar. Please print Montoyas picture and personal info as I would love to meet him.
 
You know Brett hit the nail on the head! We all should email those companies mentioned and voice our disgust with USO and their companies for backing him. Their email addresses are easy enough to get.

KK
 
MY QUESTION IS THIS....HOW DID IT GET THIS FAR??? HOW DOES ONE IDIOT FROM NM COME HERE AND CHALLENGES A STATE AGENCY, AND WIN???????? UNBELIEVABLE. SO MUCH FOR HUNTING WITH MY KIDS....THANKS USO.

NOW WHAT???? CAN WE EVEN DO ANYTHING AT THIS POINT??? I DO NOT KNOW, I AM JUST SICK TO MY STOMACH.
 
I'm sick to my stomach right now. I just hope something can be done....I can't tell you how excited I was to think I MIGHT draw an elk tag this year w/ 6 bp's. I almost feel like hunting AZ will become a lost cause. I'm ready to do whatever is necessary to change this ridiculous decision.
 
Here is what i wrote to primos-what do u thank



Dear Primos
My name is Eric and im from arizona and I have been buying your hunting movies and calls for year and I love them and thank there the best on the market but if you keep using United States Outfitters as one of your guides I will never buy any of your products ever again and keep everbody I can from buy them after what those guys did to us AZ resedents.Hunting means the world to me and if I cant go I dont know what I would do_One of the reasons why my family move her is to hunt these incredible animals.We dont have the kind of money to go out of state.I would happy if you took my though into consideration and feel for use AZ residents.What would You do if you couldnt hunt.
 
I just sent this to Knight Rifles... will send to the rest soon.

I am writing to express my disgust with one of the companies you sponsor. The recent lawsuit filed by United States Outfitters (USO) has kicked of a growing effort to boycott the use of any products or companies that are associated with USO. While I'm sure your company makes fine products I cannot endorse their use as a consumer and will do whatever I can to ensure no other hunters use them either. To witness the growth of this movement you can visit www.monstermuleys.com. The message boards are full of people willing to fight for what we consider an injustice to the residents of Arizona and hunting in general.

JG
 
I also sent emails. Not sure if it will help but im p!$$ed off and wanted to say something to someone.im suppose to go out of town tomorrow but im going to try and make the meeting!
 
You have got to be kidding me!!! What a time of year to throw this one in our faces again. Needless to say, I am as angry as the rest of you Az Residents. I cannot go to the meeting today, being as I am still across the pond for a few more months. I appreciate all of you that can and will go to the meeting and stand up for us. Anyone know a fax number so I can at least send a letter to the commission with my views?

I will also email all the companies that endorse USO and that gang. Won't make much difference probably, but my hard earned dime will be better spent elsewhere.

S/F
 
Maybe I can get that elk permit now or that 13b tag.I dont know what all the fuss is over???? 1 happy Utard... That is until they do the same in my state..........
 
Let me try to explain somthing here to everybody, I may be wrong here but we will see. I have read all of court documents and it states " Elk and Deer NORTH of the Colorado River "..... Last time I looked I dont think most people put in for Elk up on the Strip!!!!! So everybody on this site complaining about thier Elk chances nothing has changed!!!!! The coveted areas such as Unit 1, 27, 6A, 7m, 8, 9, and 10 the number is still the same. As for Deer this will affect the Mule deer hunts on the kaibab Plateau.. ( Which sucks for me, I am a resident and I put in for the Strip just about every year ) This does not affect you Coues hunters down in the Southern part of the State... Residents of AZ can still buy an OTC Archery tag for deer and hunt where ever you want.

Just thought I would put that out there for everybody.
 
Hullin I think you have got the facts wrong. I think the order regarding north of the Rim is limited to the Strip deer draw because those are the only deer tags which bonus points apply. I think the ruling applies to all of the elk hunts.
 
I would agree. I think Hullin is incorrect here. The court order affects all tags that G&F has limited with the 10% Non-Res cap. I do not read it the way you are Hullin, although I wish I could.
If anyone has a contact with the outdoors editors at the AZ Republic it would be nice to see this get some press next Thursday. We need to get the average hunter who does'nt follow these issues informed and involved.
USO sux! Hey Boy George, I will be waiting at the Reserve N.M. airstrip opening day of early ML season. When you finish your morning (illegal)fly over the Gila units I would like to speak with you.

Utards stay home!
 
You can get bonus points for deer in all areas, The bonus point system is based on species, not area. I could be wrong but I have read the court papers over and over, it keeps saying " Any Antlered Deer and Bull Elk North of the Colorado River "
 
I'm sure we have a bunch of very happy guides in AZ today. Warm up those chute planes boys!
 
Does anybody know if this Lawrence Montoya is the same as "Griz" Montoya in all the videos?
 
If indeed the appeals process has run full cycle we are stuck with the court's ruling. However, it would not suprise me in the least if USO or another high dollar guide co. files a similar suit in another federal circuit. I believe Utah is in the tenth circuit. Ideally the tenth or whatever circuit next addresses this issue will rule inconsistent with the ninth circuit (Arizona's circuit and the most liberal in the country) thus putting pressure on the US Supreme court to resolve the split. Until then Arizona is stuck and will have to change the current system. I have not read the court's order to determine whether it has given precise instructions regarding what must be changed, but hope the instructions do not give non-residents an equal chance at drawing a tag. I am all for being fair, but non-residents should not be given a full equal opportunity to draw.

Regardless, USO needs to hear from us. I'm not sure how their organization operates, but from what I understand they hire local Arizona boys to guide here. Don't do it. USO is obviously not concerned about what it best for hunting. Also, anytime we see USO here in Arizona we should exercise our first amendment rights and let them know how we feel.
 
Hey "PinonPaul", not every guide in this state is happy about this because we still try to draw tags ourselves and hunt. Also, mostly because a lot of them do it, there are still some of us who guide without the use of a chute plane. Its called strap the packs on and use some boot leather.
Also, "AZHUNTATTY" nailed it on the head about us AZ guides working for USO. About every other year, I get a letter from USO wanting me to guide for him in the upcoming hunts. I'm sure every other licensed guide in the state gets one too. My letter has always been chucked into the garbage can because I would never stoop to associating myself with that shady company. However, there are some of us AZ boys who think it would be cool to guide for Ol' George. That is where you can nip it in the bud. Do not subcontract, guide, or assist that prick with his opperation. Period. He will have to scramble to get out of state guides for his hunters. They will not have the knowledge of the country like we locals do and the client satisfaction will ultimately drop because of the lower kill % that results. Therefor his big-time operation will get black marked by his own paying clients. Remember, USO guides in other states also, so this suggestion doesn't only apply to AZ boys, You outa staters that guide can boycott your services also. Just my $.02.
Chris Jacob
 
As for the 10 percent cap....in 1998 me and a buddy were fortunate enough to draw a unit 9 archery elk tag. That year 80 permits were given. We ran into 14 out of state hunters during that hunt. We were joking around wondering what was 10 percent of 80 permits.

I'm not trying to bag on out of staters. I put in for out of state hunts myself. If this whole mess was for a better cause it would be one thing, as it is its all about the mighty dollar. Im just wondering why as an Arizona resident, paying Arizona tax dollars, some of which goes to the Arizona Game and Fish, to help manage Arizona wildlife, my odds of getting an tag in my home state is decreasing. How many non resident volunteers go out in the field to work with the Arizona Game and Fish on improvements for wildlife? I am not eligible for any benefits from any other state, because I am not a resident there, now I dont get home court advantage in my own state.
 
I am not an attorney, so I don't know if these would be legal options to the Az. problem, but I suggest that AZGFD seperate our hunts into Premium Hunts and General Hunts, the Premium Hunts would be the Hunts that take place during the rut and in trophy units, the Premium Hunts would be only available to residents, this would leave the General Hunts unlimited to non-residents, which means they have possible access to as many tags as residents, but not during the Trophy Hunting periods, which I think is the tags they want the most. And if we must unlimit these tags also the price for a non-resident Premium Hunt should be $15000 for elk and $7000 for deer, if the Reservations can charge this why not the rest of the State.And they may even be able to charge Outfitter guideing in Az. and not based in Az. an anual liscencing fee of say $50,000 a year to help recoup some Court costs.
Co-Founder BS Hunting Club
 
BS HUNTER maybe they should just raises the poor residents fees up to what they charge NR's. If you pay 80 bucks to hunt and I pay 500 who do you think the F&G will want to buy the tag, until residents start paying more of the freight you will see more of those higher dollar tags slip thru your hands to the people who are paying the" top dollar" AS one old boy said he meet 14 NR on a 80 tag hunt welll the F&G needed more money, then what was coming in so they sold more NR tags and the fund jumps back up. Start paying more or watch it all get taken away by those who can buy those tags, I hope no-one use USO in AZ that is a sure way to run them out, I sure wouldn't want to park a New Mexico licensed pickup at a trailhead this fall, Maybe they will leave the California ones alone, LMAO
Hey this is just the start amny more states will follow, you need to get ready for the new era of hunting. It kind of like the adventure pass in California to just park in the woods, if you can't buy it you can't go into the woods not even for a hike, a picnic, birdwatch, hunting or nothing. If your car is parked and you don't have a pass you get a ticket. This will be visiting your areas soon. They just found another way to tax us that use the forest the most Hunters and fisherman.
 
Gator, The real fact ithat as far as the tags North of the Colorado River goes the non-residents have the ability to have just as many tags as the Residents in fact they could have more if they really wanted, all they have to do is learn to shoot a Bow. Maybe the non-res hunter should get none of the Rifle Permits North of the Colorado.
BS Hunting Club Co-Founder
 
AZGFD sets a CAP of 10%... That means if 10% of the total number of tags have been taken by NON-Res hunters, the next NON-res applicant is out of luck. The guy that commented on seeing 14 NON-res hunters in an 80 tag unit... well 14 is less than 10% of the tags that AZGFD issues. They don't set aside 10% from each unit, they cap non-res apps at 10% of the whole (total tags per species).

make sense?


JG
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-16-04 AT 11:18PM (MST)[p]I live in Washington and was fortunate to draw a bull rifle tag in 2000. It was an enjoyable experience. One I will never forget. I believe Az should have some rights in terms of tag allocation, but I believed 10% was a pretty slim margin. I didn't mind too bad about the high fees, because it was a quality hunt. Anyone who thinks the state should now jack up the out of state hunters fees need to think that reasoning very carefully. BS hunter's thinking on keeping all the premium hunts for residents only is simply BS. It ain't gonna happen. I agree with Gator on some of his coments about who pays the fees. Why should a working class guy never have the means to hunt out of state afew times in his life without being bent over?There has to be some middle ground somewhere, and demonizing the non residents is not the right way to go. Sorry for venting. This is just the way I feel.
 
I guess I should have finished explaining my self, I think the General Hunt Tags could go to non-residents for maybe $400 to $500 for an Elk Tag and maybe $250 to $300 for a Deer Tag, these hunts are still in the same Units as any other hunt, just not the same Time.The quality animals will still be there, just tougher to hunt.That is still a good deal when compared to other States General Hunts.

BS Hunting Club Co-Founder
 
BS HUNTER,
One thing about other states other than Nevada they dont charge you 113.50 every year that you dont draw just for a bonus point. Well I have been putting in for a long time now and by the time I draw a tag I will be into the tag maybe thousands of dollars. Do you think this is fair also. Dont get me wrong I think the lower numbers of tags for non-residents should stay about the same but if they were to do this to the non-res guess who will quit putting in for the trophy hunts yes the non-residents. Guess what the residents would have to come up with the money that they would be losing from non-resident applicants. How much money does the state profit from non-residents buying bonus points I dont know the facts on this but someone does it is a hell of alot of money. I think if non-residents quit applying it would really effect the residents cost to put in. You would not want to pay up to 2000.00 for a elk tag would you plus raise the bonus point fees to 350.00 each year for residents that need a point. This is what could happen yes to you the resident. The state would need to make up the money they would lose from the non-resident funds.
GOOD LUCK TO EVERYONE IN THE DRAWS RESIDENT AND NON-RESIDENT JUST HOPE THEY CAN DRAW THE PERMITS SOONER THAN LATER.
 
BS I already shoot a bow, Rifle, Muzzy as my wife tell me if they had a slingshot season I would be there too. It not about what season you can hunt it's about the wording and how the 10% rules is working, 90% of the hunt aren't meeting the 10% NR draw. I know it worded UP TO 10% and non-trophy areas it don't affect a thing. Just remember that if the NR money wasn't in the mix for the F&G to beef-up there budget all resident would be paying a higher fees. So raising the resident fees right now would do the same as getting rid of the NR hunter, your F&G would have money to spend on the wilflife. I donate a license fee every year just for a point,and I will keep doing that, If the F&G changed the format now you would see more problems, If you have 200,000 resident and 40,000 NR putting in for tags why the 10% why not put every-one on the same footing if you draw you hunt if you don't you stay home, OR are afraid that the F&G would sell more tags to the higher fees guys(NR) and the resident would be out in the cold.I don't think the draws are rigged, so if your lucky you draw.Resident and NR alike still can buy those high dollars tags from landowner and such, Me I will stick to the draws.
 
The premise of the case was based on being able to sell the antlers, hides, and ivory. We all know that is not the real reason, but that is how they chose to bring their case to court.

The fact is, you can pick up as many antlers as you can find, sell them, all with out a permit. You can only shoot one animal per year and collect one set of antlers from it.

For hides and ivory, cow elk have both and are not subject to the 10% cap. Deer south of the Colorado have antlers and hides too.

Why wasn't this part of the AZGFD defense?
 
OK This could get long, but here goes. Due to the fact that some Outfitters from N.M. want all of Az. Trophy Bull & Buck tags, and eventually they will be going after every other States Trophy tags, I am suggesting that in order to get these tags for thier non-res. clients they pay substantialy for them. The General Hunt non-res. tag would cost say $100 for a non-res. hunting liscence, which is a $13 reduction to obtain a Bonus Point and say $300 to $400 for the tag, which at this time is $371. this would not raise non-res. General tags at all. On the Apache Reservation it currently costs $15000 to get a Bull Elk tag, and there is about an 8 year waiting list. Trust me this is not what I want to see happen, but these Outfitters have already cost the State quite a bit of money in Court costs, so they might as well get some money out of them. As a resident I have been applying for 25 years and have never drawn a trophy Bull tag, in fact I have only drawn 2Bull tags in all of those years, and now these people want to make the odds of myself and other residents drawing a tag even worse. So I guess I say if they are going to get these tags any way make them pay. There are still alot of quality animals available during the General seasons, they are just tougher to hunt, every year there are some very large trophy animals taken during what would be a General Hunt in fact they are the same animals the Trophy Hunts would be hunting, just tougher to hunt. And, maybe, since it is going to become so hard to draw a Trophy Bull tag that most will be lucky to draw once in thier lifetime ,they should make it a once in a lifetime hunt.
 
SOMEBURRO, I totally agree with you, infact if you include the archery deer hunts the deer tags even North of the Canyon are totally un-restricted to residents as well as non residents. In fact the last couple of times that I have Archery hunted the world famous Kiabab Plateau, I saw way more California hunters than I did Arizona hunters. So as far as I am concerned there is no cap on the deer tags only the rifle tags and if the non-residents can't draw a rifle tag under the old way they can do like alot of us residents do when we can't draw a rifle tag, and pick up the trusty bow and arrow.
 
BS HUNTER,
Do you apply in only your state? I would suggest applying for every great elk state you can if you are not doing this now. The reason being is the same problem is happening in Utah. Seems that they give less tags to non-residents but the odds are alot better in some units for non-res. then residents. If you have been applying for a solid 25 years without drawing a tag I feel for you.I hope you draw this year you deserve it.I have been reading some of these posts and it seems some think that Arizona is the only state to harvest and enjoy monster elk.Wrong it is tough for residents and non-residents to draw great tags in Utah,Nevada,Idaho,Wyoming,Colorado.just like Arizona.Utah is getting very hard to draw if you dont have max points for elk. Yes I think Utah and Arizona should go to a once in a lifetime hunt for elk. It will still take years to draw a tag unless you get very lucky.I also think Utah should charge non-residents a license fee to obtain a bonus point like Arizona does and Nevada.These extra dollars could be put back into wildlife projects in areas that need them most.
 
WARBIRDUM, I do apply in other states, mostly for Mule Deer tags, I have hunted the General deer hunts in Utah a couple of times, and even when the draw odds for the non-resident tags was 65% I had a tough time getting a tag. I have been after a Paunsaugunt tag for years with no luck.
 
Like I said before I dont like what is going on and feel for you residents of Arizona. This will change everyones state in near future. I would hate to be a guide or sponsor for USO from this day on.BS HUNTER how many points do you have for the paunsaugunt deer hunt? If you have been putting in for archery you should be getting close. If you ever draw and need any information on this unit I would be glad to help you out.
GOOD LUCK ON YOUR DRAW CHANCES THIS YEAR FOR YOUR HOME STATE SOUNDS LIKE YOU DESERVE IT APPLING FOR A ELK TAG FOR 25 YEARS AND HAVE NOT DRAWN OUT AS OF YET WOULD MAKE ME A LITTLE ANGRY TO TO HAVE THE ODDS GO DOWN THE DRIAN FOR RESIDENTS.
 
Thanks WARBIRDUM, I don't remember off the top of my head the exact number of ponts, but I usually put in for rifle and muzzle loader tags. I really don't want things to get worse for anyone who hunts, but with this ruling, and the fact that the last few years the number of tags have declined, is going to make it worse for everyone. I guess maybe a bunch of us Western hunters should get together and flood the Eastern and Southern states and help them get thier Whitetail population under control, or better yet maybe that is what USO should do and stay out of the West.
 
Heres the scoop. If you think this is going to end with Arizona, your wrong. This is just the start, the door is open for these guys to start on everyone elses state. My idea is to put out postings on several sites as well as distributing e-mails to everyone you can think of, and have them forward the e-mail themselves saying that anyone, resident or not that wants to use a guide uses any guide that is in no way associated with this outfit that started the mess in Arizona. Using a guide is not a bad idea. Using US Outfitters or anyone associated with them is wrong. No more business for them, they wont have a leg to stand on. If you dont live in Arizona, be prepared for your state to get hit next, unless these guys are out of the picture. Arizona took a hit, so lets stop it there.
 
I am a non resident hunter and have been hunting Arizona since about 1989 mainly their archery mule deer. I've been putting in every year for those coveted tags both deer and elk and will gladly wait my turn. I think things need to stay the way they are. How much money is enough for these specific guides? States need to be able to regulate their wildlife how they see fit and shouldn't be run by the FEDS. This scares me of the consequences not only in Arizona but other areas and future rulings as well. This ruling if it holds up will be a major loss for the AVERAGE HUNTER and the future of hunting as a whole. It saddens me that money is slowly deteriorating the sport that we all love so much. This is a real sad sad deal if this holds up. MONEY, MONEY, MONEY, hunting is turning into one big circus. More and more clowns are showing up every year. If things keep going the way they are we'll just have to stay home and watch these clowns perform on TV. That will be the average hunters' future a couch and a remote control. What a joke.
 
Think of it this way. These guys are accomplishing what the fish huggers have been trying to do for years. Think of it as a slow invasion of non-hunters. Not people that are against hunting but people that just dont do it. How many kids will stay interested in hunting when they never get a chance to do it. If a kid just hitting the legal age to hunt only draws a tag every 10, 15, or 20 years, or more, how will they ever stick with it. Anyone supporting or using USO or anyone associated with them should be put out of business. Some companies that support them will most likely never go out of business, but go to huntuso.com and check out their sponsors. If you have time to read all this then you have time to shoot a short email to their sponsors to let them know you dont approve of them supporting USO. Enough letters may make these guys rethink what they are sponsoring.
 
i sent a letter to crooked horn outfitters and got a reply from the owner the same day. he said he sponsers the show(uso has a show on the outdoor channel) basically to get the exposure through commercials that air during. he said he remains neutral. i told him that by being on the website and brochures as a sponser of USO it appears you back their decisions and actions. i havent gotten a reply to that yet.
i can tell you for certain that crooked horn is reading the emails, send them something and let them know your displeasure.
az79
 
I got the same response from crooked horn. I emailed them back and told them that by sponsoring these guys they back all their actions. Still waiting for another reply. Anyone that sends them an email the first time will get the same response. I could type it word by word here, but youll see it for yourself.
 
Just talked to AZ Game & Fish. They are not going to re-draw for 2004. Results should be out by Friday!!
 
Reading a post on the Elk Tab.. it says that there will be a re-draw for 2004.. but I read the post up above and it says they will not re-draw for 2004?.. Which story is correct?
 
As I understand it, they won't have to redraw. Residents who they intended to issue permits to in the completed draw will receive their permits, but the Department will issue ADDITIONAL permits to the Non-residents who WOULD HAVE DRAWN if they hadn't been eliminated by the 10% limitation. It amounts to somewhere between 100-200 additional deer permits and 600-700 additional elk permits.
 
Well if this is true, then US Outfitters may have won for now but what will they sue for next year when G&F has to severely cut permits and everyones chances are reduced to almost nothing because so many deer and elk were killed this year.
 
There is a full explanation of Arizona's plan on the game and fish web site. I am disappointed in the Judge's refusal to allow this year to go forward as planned. The end result is that next year the harvest numbers will have to be reduced significantly to compensate for this year's probable overharvest.

Lets just hope that Arizona and all the other states can come up with a reasonable solution for next year. I don't think anyone believes that a non-resident should have the same opportunity to hunt as a resident. One potential challenge to the 9th circuit's opinion is to outlaw the selling of antlers, hides, etc. This would arguably remove the dormant commerce clause argument.
 
HERE IS THE STORY THERE WILL BE NO REDARW. THEY WILL ADD ADDIONAL TAGS TO THE FOLLOWING HUNTS. FOR DEER 127 TAGS 117 NONRES. 10 RES. HUNT #1013 4 TAGS, #1014 12 TAGS, 1016 30 TAGS, # 1018 2 TAGS, #1019 14 TAGS, #1020 22 TAGS, #1021 13 TAGS, #1022 17 TAGS, #1129 13 TAGS. THESE ARE ALL DEER HUNTS AFFECTED. FOR ELK HUNT #'S 3003 2 TAGS, #3004 3 TAGS, #3005 2 TAGS, #3006 11 TAGS, #3007 1 TAG, #3008 1 TAG, #3010 7 TAGS, #3011 6 TAGS, #3012 4 TAGS, #3020 4 TAGS, #3023 80 TAGS, #3024 27 TAGS, #3025 105 TAGS, #3027 29 TAGS, #3028 1 TAG, #3029 17 TAGS, #3030 47 TAGS, #3107 4 TAGS, #3108 2 TAGS, #3109 2 TAGS, #3110 6 TAGS, #3111 35 TAGS, #3116 20 TAGS, #3117 4 TAGS, #3118 3 TAGS, #3119 4 TAGS, #3120 8 TAGS, #3121 14 TAGS, #3122 15 TAGS, #3123 8 TAGS, #3124 11 TAGS, #3125 13 TAGS, #3126 1 TAG, #3128 23 TAGS, #3129 16 TAGS, #3130 17 TAGS, #3131 15 TAGS, #3132 27 TAGS, #3133 33 TAGS, #3134 27 TAGS, #3135 3 TAGS, #3140 20 TAGS THIS IS A TOTAL OF 678, 39 WILL BE RES, 639 WILL BE NONRES AND COULD POSSIBLY BE POSTED BY TOMORROW.
 
Falcon,
I'm glad you were able to hunt in AZ and enjoyed your experience chasing ol' wapiti in the Grand Canyon State. How many years did you apply before your were drawn for that coveted elk tag as a non-resident? Bet it wasn't as long as I've waited as a resident of AZ. I waited 10 years for my first tag and then drew a 2nd time in a marginal area 4 years later and now have waited four more years to see if I've drawn anything for 2004.
Kinda tough to become a competent elk hunter when you can't draw a tag to hunt!

As for deer, well I'm still waiting for a tag since my last one in 1990...that is 13 consecutive years without a tag to hunt mulies or coues in my home state. That is the reality for many resident AZ hunters. I do not think the average nonresident applicant understands, or can appreciate, the frustration and resignation that resident hunters experience with year after year after year of unsuccessful resident applications. I doubt any other western state has as many of their resident hunters sit on the big game hunting sidelines for years at a time as Arizona does. You may not give a rat's rear end about when and if a resident gets a tag but we sure do!
Good luck in the 04 drawings and have a great time if you draw.
 
They are not issuing that many more tags. It should not effect next years numbers.
 
AZBucksnort,
I feel for you. Utah is just as bad. I finally drew a limited entry deer tag last year in 2003 after 18 years of applying for both deer and elk with no luck. Still waiting for that elk tag. I'm very used to the feelings that are associated with that word unsuccessful! I can appreciate your frustration. It's difficult to draw the best units in alot of Western states. I agree that residents should get most of the tags. I fear for the average hunters' future because of this ruling. It really sucks!!!
 
If they are going to now release the results I would imagine that we should be getting emails from them on if we drew or not. Maybe tomorrow????
 
Game and fish is issuing an additional 805 tags as stated on their website. Majority of those tags are going to NR's and some R's that applied with a NR.
 
Notice one of the names on the supplemental draw is an Anthony Montoya. Any relation to the Montoya in the lawsuit??

from the "Heartland of Wyoming"
 

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