I think Private property is to blame on winter kill!

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notrace

Active Member
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Ok I am ready to be slammed for this but I feel that due to the amounts of private property in Northern utah that it makes it impossible to manage big game.

Case in point all those elk dieing around Echo-Henifer! Those elk are mostly on large CWMU's that have not been killing the numbers of elk that the biologists have been wanting them to kill mostly cows but also the mo ey is in the size and they ain't killing but there top end stuff.

Even when the cow hunts kick in the elk run back to private property and it impossible to get onto private due to some private is in CWMU program and it's not legal to hunt with anything bit a CWMU's tag and then smaller private owners don't allow access and I don't really blame them but the DNR has been saying for years we need to kill more elk!!

Yes this winter was one for the record books but the simple fact is there is not enough winter range for the nu.ber of animals on it.

When elk turn from grazers to browsers the deer are doomed!!

Those south facing slopes stayed open most of the winter and no mater how much snow they got on top of Alta the fact is the Henifer WMA can not hold that many elk and deer for that long.

Even Deseret who feeds elk every year over on there property is feeding what I've been told 2250 elk right now and that's a lot of elk even for them!

I know of several private property owners feeding wildlife but sadly not all are doing it correctly and some have asked for help from the DNR and in many cases there getting that help.

Funny how every year I hear how the DNR is killing to many cows and screwing up are elk herds but the truth is they was trying to get elk numbers down for a reason and that reason showed itself in 2022 2023.

Now I'm not saying that I would be doing anything different if I owned 10k acres around lost creek or next to Deseret but that herd has overgrown its winter range and something needs to change.
 
I think private land shelters big game animals and helps them beef up and survive the hunts before winter. The problem comes from building tens of thousands of homes on the winter range, then couple that with a 100 year record breaking snow accumulation. The biological carrying capacity was simply exceeded this winter in many areas of the western United States. Not just Utah. The social carrying capacity is almost always exceeded because humans built their homes, and farms in many cases, in the winter range. I also think that private lands, and landowners, will play a huge part in building back the deer, elk, and antelope populations over the next several years. ?
 
It's hard to read I'm sure as I wrote it when I really should have been sleeping!!

But honestly it comes down to mismanagement of private land animals that winter on the public land Echo-Henifer WMA.

The only way to fix this is to kill a bunch of elk or start feeding on the WMA!
 
dillonhoyt said:
I think private land shelters big game animals and helps them beef up and survive the hunts before winter. The problem comes from building tens of thousands of homes on the winter range, then couple that with a 100 year record breaking snow accumulation. The biological carrying capacity was simply exceeded this winter in many areas of the western United States. Not just Utah. The social carrying capacity is almost always exceeded because humans built their homes, and farms in many cases, in the winter range. I also think that private lands, and landowners, will play a huge part in building back the deer, elk, and antelope populations over the next several years. ?
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Sadly that is really the Truth but the Biologists is trying to keep the numbers to what the winter range can hold and Private property is not doing there part.
 
The truth is: The large private tracts that surround the WMA you mention are some of, if not the best manage properties in the state. On a normal winter, this area has plenty of winter range to support the critters in this area. Why do you think the big game herds do so well here? This winter as an anomaly. The elk and deer herd in this area is generally very healthy, and the caliber of the game is very high. These ranches are a good example of how good the state on a whole could actually be if managed more carefully. These private area's deal with, predators, cars, trains, winter, drought, etc. The same handful of excuse we've learned to except from big game managers. And yet, they continue to have very good hunting. I don't expect our general area's to be managed like private lands. But it does show the possibilities, even with the natural struggles the herds deal with. These ranches make 100's of thousands of dollars off the wildlife that inhabit these ranches. I can assure you, those running these operations care about, and are doing the very best they can to keep these herds very healthy. For what its worth, they kill a ton of cow elk. But generally, the habitat and conditions is so good, the elk herds flourish.
 
I will disagree with you.

These ranches are infact wildlife magnets due to only harvesting the cream off the top bucks and bulls and are done for the same reason you mentioned the 100s of thousand of dollars!

They ate not interested in game capacity of the winter range .

Yes these have been some of the best hunting areas way before CWMU's where in effect but that is due to lower hunting pressure and the fact that most elk run to these property's before the general hunts start not a fact that they are managed to some perfection infact there is little to no predator control on the biggest CWMU.

My point is if they would have been killing the elk like the biologists recommend there would not have been as many starving animals on the WMA winter range.

This winter has had a lot of cold and snow but the winter range was fortunate to have days that melted off south facing slopes and really was not as bad as the winter could have been yet we will loose a lot of animals!!

We haven't had a normal winter in a long time and in turn deer and especially elk have thrived to over objective numbers!!

Now that we see why they have been saying we have to many elk!
 
I'm going to agree with fullthrottle for the most part.

If the dollars make sense to feed them it will happen. If it doesn't it is not going to happen. There is no way to force private property owners to feed wild animals.

I hope you understand that they were losing beef cows and calf's too at the same time.
 
notrace said:
Ok I am ready to be slammed for this but I feel that due to the amounts of private property in Northern utah that it makes it impossible to manage big game.

Case in point all those elk dieing around Echo-Henifer! Those elk are mostly on large CWMU's that have not been killing the numbers of elk that the biologists have been wanting them to kill mostly cows but also the mo ey is in the size and they ain't killing but there top end stuff.

Even when the cow hunts kick in the elk run back to private property and it impossible to get onto private due to some private is in CWMU program and it's not legal to hunt with anything bit a CWMU's tag and then smaller private owners don't allow access and I don't really blame them but the DNR has been saying for years we need to kill more elk!!

Yes this winter was one for the record books but the simple fact is there is not enough winter range for the nu.ber of animals on it.

When elk turn from grazers to browsers the deer are doomed!!

Those south facing slopes stayed open most of the winter and no mater how much snow they got on top of Alta the fact is the Henifer WMA can not hold that many elk and deer for that long.

Even Deseret who feeds elk every year over on there property is feeding what I've been told 2250 elk right now and that's a lot of elk even for them!

I know of several private property owners feeding wildlife but sadly not all are doing it correctly and some have asked for help from the DNR and in many cases there getting that help.

Funny how every year I hear how the DNR is killing to many cows and screwing up are elk herds but the truth is they was trying to get elk numbers down for a reason and that reason showed itself in 2022 2023.

Now I'm not saying that I would be doing anything different if I owned 10k acres around lost creek or next to Deseret but that herd has overgrown its winter range and something needs to change.
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DEB04312-F544-4F90-950F-2EF9A78C6397.jpeg
 
What cwmu are you referring to? To my knowledge all the cwmu's in that area are killing elk.

Who do you think sets the numbers for the amount of elk that needs to be taken each year?
 
I can assure you, those who run these CWMU's are supplementing the deer herds in winter way more than any state or private run organization.
Owners & operators who run the large CWMU's in this area are good stewards of the land, along with the domestic animals, and wildlife that inhabit these property's. Come from generations of this lifestyle. Many of them emphasize Mule deer.
They heavily pursue the elk. Those elk eat the same feed as their cattle and sheep in the summer.
To think there is a large influx of elk from public lands that get pushed onto these property's from the public pressure is also false. The vast majority of these elk, live on these private properties year round.
Bottom line, placing the blame of winter kill on private properties is absurd.
 
Mtngoat690 said:
What cwmu are you referring to? To my knowledge all the cwmu's in that area are killing elk.

Who do you think sets the numbers for the amount of elk that needs to be taken each year?
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I think he's referring to cow elk they're not killing the number of cows that they should have in the last few years
 
fullthrottle said:
I can assure you, those who run these CWMU's are supplementing the deer herds in winter way more than any state or private run organization.
Owners & operators who run the large CWMU's in this area are good stewards of the land, along with the domestic animals, and wildlife that inhabit these property's. Come from generations of this lifestyle. Many of them emphasize Mule deer.
They heavily pursue the elk. Those elk eat the same feed as their cattle and sheep in the summer.
To think there is a large influx of elk from public lands that get pushed onto these property's from the public pressure is also false. The vast majority of these elk, live on these private properties year round.
Bottom line, placing the blame of winter kill on private properties is absurd.
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The WMA is public so it makes it tough for the stewards to take care of the elk and then release on to public where there is not enough feed or too many animals.
 
Mtngoat690 said:
What cwmu are you referring to? To my knowledge all the cwmu's in that area are killing elk.

Who do you think sets the numbers for the amount of elk that needs to be taken each year?
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The DNR states what needs to be killed but the landowners can use all the tags there given or they can just use the numbers that will keep mature elk alive for next year.

That sounds like a great way to keep prices up on tags and keeping people c p ming back year after year.

But when those cow hunters get access to hunt up there things have changed they let you go out before t he heards come down on winter range and are still up in the areas that are much tougher to harvestbut if you pay them to be guided you don't see the guides needing to play the same rules the non guided hunters had to do. And then there doing the guide hunts later in the year.


Now I've heard that some CWMU's don't really care about killing cow elk on there property and it has lead up to a overwhelming number of elk.
 
You are not correct in your thinking for several reasons.

It makes no sense that a CWMU would carry more animals than needed.

Bull tags are for money, cow tags are for population control.

I doubt many if any sell cow tags to NR. They allow the R public to hunt them as a percentage of the required tag allocation.

The DWR and hunters keep a close eye on success rates for both. It is in the best interest of the CWMU to have successful hunters.

On an average year those elk spend very little time on the WMA.
 
The way I have always understood it, DNR sets the numbers of antlerless tags for the cwmu. They monitor the success rates and they hold the cwmu accountable to take the established quota each year. If the cwmu does not meet the quota, it is my understanding they are held accountable and adjustments are made.

I know of a few cwmu's where the elk are only seasonal residents. Meaning the elk are only there certain times during the season. The DNR does not except the excuse that the elk were gone after late September. If they are there in September,
The operator better get hunters on them in September. Same goes for the late hunts.

Belive it or not, there are cwmu's that want to kill way more elk to help the deer population, but they are restricted by the herd objective the state sets for the county. If the requirements are to take 10 cow elk off the property, they want 10 cow elk off the property. Most if not all operators strive to fill 100 percent of the cow tags.

I'm not sure about the other species, but they pay close attention to success rates on cow elk. We can't restructure our entire system because we had a unpredictably bad winter.
 
The operators in that area spend big money on feeding. They are the only reason the herds haven't been decimated. I live in the area and know the positive impact they have made.
I am a small landowner and have spent more that 20K on supplemental feed this year. The big outfitters have spent 10 times that much.
Many different opinions on outfitters but one thing is for sure. This year they have done a tremendous amount for the survival of wildlife in my area!
 
I think it gets shady when it's just assumed all CWMU are are Deseret, they aren't. Few have enough acreage to have actual winter range. On a normal year, it might not matter. But any of us that enjoyed watching those bulls this winter watched as they pushed off of CWMU and into ranch land. We watched them chase off horses to take hay.

So yeah, on a year like this year, there is a pinch. And, I don't think expecting CWMU, that skim off the cream in exchange for huge rewards, should be feeding, or paying for feed. Shouldn't be left up to the ranchers to lose cattle feed, for animals they don't profit off of.
 
I guide on a CWMU that has more Bull Elk tags per acre than probably any unit in the entire state. We keep killing them, and every year they just keep showing up again. Been doing it for 15+ years now.

Down with the land Carp, up with the Mule Deer!

j/k, sort of....
 
middlefork said:
You are not correct in your thinking for several reasons.

It makes no sense that a CWMU would carry more animals than needed.

Bull tags are for money, cow tags are for population control.

I doubt many if any sell cow tags to NR. They allow the R public to hunt them as a percentage of the required tag allocation.

The DWR and hunters keep a close eye on success rates for both. It is in the best interest of the CWMU to have successful hunters.

On an average year those elk spend very little time on the WMA.
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The CWMU's have control of how and when you can hunt and again I feel there not getting the numbers killed of cow that need to be reduced.. but you are correct the winter is about the only time there on the WMA.
 
257Tony said:
I guide on a CWMU that has more Bull Elk tags per acre than probably any unit in the entire state. We keep killing them, and every year they just keep showing up again. Been doing it for 15+ years now.

Down with the land Carp, up with the Mule Deer!

j/k, sort of....
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Then where do they go come winter?
 
Horsecorn said:
This is the stupidest thread I’ve read in a long time. Is this a joke?
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257Tony said:
I guide on a CWMU that has more Bull Elk tags per acre than probably any unit in the entire state. We keep killing them, and every year they just keep showing up again. Been doing it for 15+ years now.

Down with the land Carp, up with the Mule Deer!

j/k, sort of....
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And we have not had a normal winter in about the same time .. so elk numbers are on the rise ??

Has the DNR Biologists tried to get the CWMU you guide on to take more cow elk out ??

It's been my understanding that the Biologists has been trying to get all the cwmu's in that area to kill more cow elk yet there has been a push back from the lost creek outfitters association to not kill more elk??

Cow tags are almost 100% given to Resident hunters during the antlerless draw and I'm sure that it does not put money in the pockets of the cwmu's to kill more elk but it was needed..

So you all are saying that the winter range is adequate for the number of elk and deer that winter there???
 
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I’m going to say, on a normal winter. Yes, there is plenty of winter range for the current population of deer and elk that winter there. No question.
 
notrace said:
And we have not had a normal winter in about the same time .. so elk numbers are on the rise ??

Has the DNR Biologists tried to get the CWMU you guide on to take more cow elk out ??

It's been my understanding that the Biologists has been trying to get all the cwmu's in that area to kill more cow elk yet there has been a push back from the lost creek outfitters association to not kill more elk??

Cow tags are almost 100% given to Resident hunters during the antlerless draw and I'm sure that it does not put money in the pockets of the cwmu's to kill more elk but it was needed..

So you all are saying that the winter range is adequate for the number of elk and deer that winter there???
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All the cows tags on this unit go into the public draw. There are very few compared to the number of Bull tags. I believe that this particular unit has plenty of winter range for the Deer and Elk, I guess we will see this summer when scouting trips start.
 
notrace said:
The CWMU's have control of how and when you can hunt and again I feel there not getting the numbers killed of cow that need to be reduced.. but you are correct the winter is about the only time there on the WMA.
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A landowner I know in Colorado asked fish and game for help to get elk off of his property in the winter. The elk were eating the feed he needed for his cattle. They declined and spent their time watching the ranch instead of helping. He got in a little trouble, doing what you are suggesting.
 
I think you misunderstood me the DNR has been trying to get these elk killed and has tried to add more tags for these properties but the landowners and outfitters that control the private property could not see any reason to let more people on there property to kill more cow elk.

In ways I see the landowners reasoning for this as there was really no insensitive to do it and like me at the time looked at cow elk as the baby makers of more elk especially future trophy elk that has been a cash crop to both landowners and outfitters and guides!

Now to be fair Deseret has every year feed a lot of elk on there eastern part of there property and has done it every year that I know of and today I heard that R&K is also feeding deer and elk and my hats off to them and any other folks that are doing it properly!

All that aside the Biologists has for years stated that the elk herd is over objective and more cows needed to be killed! And now we can all see why.

I seen another post with a video of I believe was Utah DNR Biologists that said we can't stock pile animals year after year and many of you laughed at him for saying that.
Well its true sooner or later there's going to be a winter that causes a kill off of animals the sad truth is when it happens to a herd that's over capacity or over objective it doesn't just kill off enough animals to be at capacity or objective it goes deep into the herd and in places throughout Northern Utah it will be bad on numbers!!


You can laugh all you want and say I'm a couch Biologists but sadly I've done some research and infact have talked to present Biologists and even a past Biologists on Deseret land and livestock that will back me up as most of the info I have shared is from those same folks I just mentioned!

If they want to chime in they will but I would not blame them for not as most of you are just not wanting to look at anything other then one option!!
 
Echo-Hynerphur WMA needs a cut back of the amount grazing that the state allows up there, not a lot of water and feed to begin with. Also Supplemental feeding is a massive commitment, some land owners/CWMUs do it effectively starting early with costly feed. Some don’t, some do more harm than good, and begin feeding late January-March primarily to centralize the game for easy antler gathering.
 
smokepolejohnson said:
Echo-Hynerphur WMA needs a cut back of the amount grazing that the state allows up there, not a lot of water and feed to begin with. Also Supplemental feeding is a massive commitment, some land owners/CWMUs do it effectively starting early with costly feed. Some don’t, some do more harm than good, and begin feeding late January-March primarily to centralize the game for easy antler gathering.
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Everything you wrote I totally agree with you..

I have always said I wish the DNR would start feeding especially on Henifer-Echo.


But my point here is the winter range went into winter in fairly good condition and the animals went into winter in good to excellent condition and there dieing all over that area.

The main culprit is to many elk!
 
smokepolejohnson said:
Echo-Hynerphur WMA needs a cut back of the amount grazing that the state allows up there, not a lot of water and feed to begin with. Also Supplemental feeding is a massive commitment, some land owners/CWMUs do it effectively starting early with costly feed. Some don’t, some do more harm than good, and begin feeding late January-March primarily to centralize the game for easy antler gathering.
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I wonder, if dudes(corporations) have $25k+ to drop on the publics elk, think maybe a little on a surcharge would be too much?

I mean conservation and all right?
 
notrace said:
You trying to write like me??

As that's hard to understand what you are trying to say.
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Basically, the CWMUs are in a unique situation. Unlike all the surrounding ranches that pretty much have fed elk all winter for free, the CWMU, could actually charge a fee, and purchase feed which it could put to good use.
 
Ahh I would haft to agree. I would say that most of the property's are in rolled with a CWMU unless it's some of those lower property's by the river..

As much as im trying to point some blame on cwmu's I sure would have liked to have seen some feed go down on the WMA property by the DNR starting in early to mid November for deer and late November to early December for elk I think it would have saved a lot of deer and elk!!
 
notrace said:
Ok I am ready to be slammed for this but I feel that due to the amounts of private property in Northern utah that it makes it impossible to manage big game.

Case in point all those elk dieing around Echo-Henifer! Those elk are mostly on large CWMU's that have not been killing the numbers of elk that the biologists have been wanting them to kill mostly cows but also the mo ey is in the size and they ain't killing but there top end stuff.

Even when the cow hunts kick in the elk run back to private property and it impossible to get onto private due to some private is in CWMU program and it's not legal to hunt with anything bit a CWMU's tag and then smaller private owners don't allow access and I don't really blame them but the DNR has been saying for years we need to kill more elk!!

Yes this winter was one for the record books but the simple fact is there is not enough winter range for the nu.ber of animals on it.

When elk turn from grazers to browsers the deer are doomed!!

Those south facing slopes stayed open most of the winter and no mater how much snow they got on top of Alta the fact is the Henifer WMA can not hold that many elk and deer for that long.

Even Deseret who feeds elk every year over on there property is feeding what I've been told 2250 elk right now and that's a lot of elk even for them!

I know of several private property owners feeding wildlife but sadly not all are doing it correctly and some have asked for help from the DNR and in many cases there getting that help.

Funny how every year I hear how the DNR is killing to many cows and screwing up are elk herds but the truth is they was trying to get elk numbers down for a reason and that reason showed itself in 2022 2023.

Now I'm not saying that I would be doing anything different if I owned 10k acres around lost creek or next to Deseret but that herd has overgrown its winter range and something needs to change.
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So you’re saying let’s prepare for the hard winters by decimating elk herds year in and year out because we might have one bad winter once in awhile. You’re over thinking it. It’s private land they can manage how they see fit. This isn’t an end of the world situation.. the elk and deer herds will recover. It’s always better to have to many animals than not enough.
 
I don't understand why this has been made such a big deal? Unless you are one of the regular client's or landowners that rules this particular area. You act like these animals are our public resource. When the fact is its 90% private lands that you likely will never get a chance to hunt... Why are we arguing over land and critters that most of us will never step foot on??
This reminds me of some sort of HOA, having some pain in the ass neighbors telling you what kind of tree's you can plant in your yard...
I agree, this thread is right up there with one of the dumbest ever. No worries, we've all had our moments on this site.
Moving on.
 
CJhunter26 said:
So you’re saying let’s prepare for the hard winters by decimating elk herds year in and year out because we might have one bad winter once in awhile. You’re over thinking it. It’s private land they can manage how they see fit. This isn’t an end of the world situation.. the elk and deer herds will recover. It’s always better to have to many animals than not enough.
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This is just it! Where did I say let's decimate the herd every year???

You can twist it however you want all I said is the DNR has said the elk herd was over objective or capacity and the numbers needed to be brought down to objective!!

The way you talk it's ok that having way to many elk is ok because they will come back that's not how you manage animals!!

We infact would have more elk and deer if the elk would have been at objective then what we have now!!

Now we got a a crap load of dead or dieing elk and deer that will take years to get up to objective especially the deer that have been suffering already!! When you put to many animals on land that can't sustain them you are stressing all of the land and all the wildlife so we are worse of now then we would have been!!

Keeping a healthy herd and actually managing them means that you need to keep the herd at or as close to objective as possible so when you have a bad winter you do not have these massive die offs!!

" it's better having to many animals then not enough"

Well you are exactly ? incorrect!!!



You can only have what the land can sustain or mother nature will do it for you!!


Well now you can see in those areas what not enough is!!


And as for you're deer and elk recovering good luck with that stupid logic the elk will infact recover in several years but it will take much longer for the muledeer!!
 
fullthrottle said:
I don't understand why this has been made such a big deal? Unless you are one of the regular client's or landowners that rules this particular area. You act like these animals are our public resource. When the fact is its 90% private lands that you likely will never get a chance to hunt... Why are we arguing over land and critters that most of us will never step foot on??
This reminds me of some sort of HOA, having some pain in the ass neighbors telling you what kind of tree's you can plant in your yard...
I agree, this thread is right up there with one of the dumbest ever. No worries, we've all had our moments on this site.
Moving on.
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Hate to break it to you but FYI they are infact a public resource!!!

You guys say I'm the stupid one well you just proved how much you know right there!!

I do care how these animals do on private property as they do affect all the surrounding public areas just like someone stated earlier when they said if it was not for private property there wouldn't be many deer or elk on public!! That is infact correct.

Also almost ?% of the antlerless tags go to us pore people that do infact go on these areas to hunt and then there's about 10% of the buck and bull tags that go to us in draws!!

Also if you are in the CWMU you don't get to decide the numbers you get to hunt they get X number of tags from the DNR that a biologists has decided they can take.
 
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notrace said:
This is just it! Where did I say let's decimate the herd every year???

You can twist it however you want all I said is the DNR has said the elk herd was over objective or capacity and the numbers needed to be brought down to objective!!

The way you talk it's ok that having way to many elk is ok because they will come back that's not how you manage animals!!

We infact would have more elk and deer if the elk would have been at objective then what we have now!!

Now we got a a crap load of dead or dieing elk and deer that will take years to get up to objective especially the deer that have been suffering already!! When you put to many animals on land that can't sustain them you are stressing all of the land and all the wildlife so we are worse of now then we would have been!!

Keeping a healthy herd and actually managing them means that you need to keep the herd at or as close to objective as possible so when you have a bad winter you do not have these massive die offs!!

" it's better having to many animals then not enough"

Well you are exactly ? incorrect!!!



You can only have what the land can sustain or mother nature will do it for you!!


Well now you can see in those areas what not enough is!!


And as for your deer and elk recovering good luck with that stupid logic the elk will infact recover in several years but it will take much longer for the muledeer!!
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You mistake your passion for the animals as knowledge. Just because you think something needs to be done and you have an opinion doesn’t mean you actual know anything. These private land owners obviously know what they are doing to some extent because they grew the herd in the first place by themselves. Where is your ranch in northern Utah where you can compare yourself to them? Oh wait you don’t have one so you really have no first hand experience. It comes across as you just don’t like private land and they should allow the public to hunt the herds on private. Also based on everything I have seen and read mule deer weren’t doing that good across the west for the last several years. Thank your government agencies for that. Guess they don’t know how to manage either.
 
notrace said:
Hate to break it to you but FYI they are infact a public resource!!!

You guys say I'm the stupid one well you just proved how much you know right there!!

I do care how these animals do on private property as they do affect all the surrounding public areas just like someone stated earlier when they said if it was not for private property there wouldn't be many deer or elk on public!! That is infact correct.

Also almost ?% of the antlerless tags go to us pore people that do infact go on these areas to hunt and then there's about 10% of the buck and bull tags that go to us in draws!!

Also if you are in the CWMU you don't get to decide the numbers you get to hunt they get X number of tags from the DNR that a biologists has decided they can take.
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Never said I didn’t care about the animals. This is a public resource in name only. The amount of public access is minuscule comparatively. These are private land elk and deer herds. The managers and operators are doing the slivers of public property within these herd areas a huge favor. Big game numbers would be pathetic in these small public areas if the private sections weren’t managed extremely well.
Don’t put words in others mouths and try to spin your shitty argument. Just take you beating and move along.
 
CJhunter26 said:
You mistake your passion for the animals as knowledge. Just because you think something needs to be done and you have an opinion doesn’t mean you actual know anything. These private land owners obviously know what they are doing to some extent because they grew the herd in the first place by themselves. Where is your ranch in northern Utah where you can compare yourself to them? Oh wait you don’t have one so you really have no first hand experience. It comes across as you just don’t like private land and they should allow the public to hunt the herds on private. Also based on everything I have seen and read mule deer weren’t doing that good across the west for the last several years. Thank your government agencies for that. Guess they don’t know how to manage either.

When someone tells me how much better the cwmu's are doing over public I think of Deseret and don't get me wrong when it comes to numbers they got them but when was the last time they killed a 400 class bull??? Or Amy of the surrounding CWMUs ??

Well they kill them on public??

There's a lot of 200 inch bucks killed on public and there's not that many cwmus that kill 200 inch bucks..

Anyway thanks for being judge and jury for what I know and what I don't...
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And where do you come off saying what I know or what my education is??

Talk about idiotic!!

First off I did study much of what happened in 1983-1984 when we had back to back drought and then a big winter where deer herds where infact decimated.

I did study biology as I wanted to become a biologists for the state of Utah and as stated most of what I have said if not all is not just my opinion but 2 biologists that work for utah now or did work for one of these cwmus as there biologists for 10 years!!

Saying I'm anti private property is not even close I think that if Utah would have purchased Deseret land and livestock instead of antelope island that whole area would be worse off and much like Monty Cristo is now.

I have worked on a couple of CWMUs and think they are more good then bad but there not without fault.

Saying that all CWMUs are all knowing is proof again that you are just wanting to slam me over something that you do not agree with.

Can you tell me what CWMU stands for???

Let me help you out

Cooperation
Wildlife
Management
Unit

That means that the DNR and Private Land owners work together with wildlife that on there property..

Private land gets tags for hunting that they can in turn sell.

They jointly determined by the CWMU and the DWR biologists on numbers of tags but there has been a lot of push back on killing more cows as the CWMUs have not wanted to host more resident hinters and they did not want to kill more cows.

It ain't the CWMU just doing all the management on there own!!

Roughly 10% off all buck and bull tags to to the state for a drawing not including moose to residents that can apply for.

Almost 100% of antlerless tags go to the state that will go into the draw for residents.


Before this happend there was a program started that gave guaranteed tags but many private property's sold those tags and would let other hunters hunt on there property with there general tags also. in so doing they was killing too many deer, elk, antelope and moose so they came up with cwmu making the private land a unit that only a CWMU tag could be used!! That way bad actors would not overharvest and trespassers would not be just trespassing but infact poaching on a unit there tag was not good for so not all CWMUs are real good at managing there wildlife!!
 
fullthrottle said:
Never said I didn’t care about the animals. This is a public resource in name only. The amount of public access is minuscule comparatively. These are private land elk and deer herds. The managers and operators are doing the slivers of public property within these herd areas a huge favor. Big game numbers would be pathetic in these small public areas if the private sections weren’t managed extremely well.
Don’t put words in others mouths and try to spin your shitty argument. Just take you beating and move along.
Click to expand...

And what beating would that be??

Shifty argument it's a fact there is to many elk and CWMUs have been asked to kill more and refuse to do so.

Funny read it all again and tell me who is turning words???


Then those elk that are dieing on Henifer-Echo are not the ones off the lost creek CWMUs like Deseret???
 
As some one with narrow blood lines yet deep lineage in the valley lets at least give the founding pioneer family their due respect in its correct spelling as Handiphur. Echo-Handiphur WMA
 
Like the country song. There’s no such thing as having to much fun, to fast a car , (and to many elk and deer)
 
Seriously though, an upside to all these dead animals where all the public can see them is proof to the non hunting public that hunting is a better way of controlling our wildlife than seeing them starving to death on the side of the hills because a new subdivision was built there.
In fact, the DWR’s of Idaho/Utah/Wyoming should find a way to show that hunting is more humane than what joe motorist has witnessed this year.
I’m picturing some billboards or tv ads showing people sitting down to a wild game feast vs. pics of dead animals with ribcages sticking out.
 
First off the CWMUs are infact a blessing to both deer and elk for public land hunters as there is a lot of slop that comes over to public and we should all thank private land and CWMU'S for that.

But my point is the elk herd is over objective and has been for years.

Would it make any difference on success ratio on the cwmu's if the elk where at objective??

Sure it's fun to go out and see 40 bulls a day but at what costs??

We do owe a lot of thanks to cwmu's for a lot of the deer and elk that we have but now that the elk are so far over objective it's great for elk but it's been hell on deer!

Just listen or read what I'm trying to say here I know I'm not the best at getting my point across when writing but if we was sitting at a table talking I bet we actually see eye to eye if we are all honest

What would the landscape look like if the last 10 years the elk would have been kept in objective??

One I don't think we would have seen this bad of a die off but even more importantly atleast to me I say the deer numbers would be substantial better then they have been as when elk population explode deer numbers drop its just a sad fact.

You can see this on every one of the CWMU'S

Although we owe a big thanks for deer being out there we also could say that letting the elk numbers go so far over objective that deer numbers can not truly grow!

We hunted buck deer on Deseret in 2021 when a good freind of mine drew the tag I was truly pumped to go but was very disappointed in the deer numbers in comparison to when I worked there 20+ years ago but around every corner was more elkand I mean every corner all the traditional spots that hold deer where full of elk fun to see that many elk but I knew then there was a problem and that is why we did not see the deer numbers that should have been there.


You can not have a healthy eco system when one animal over runs a area like that.

It's a fact that where there's big numbers of elk deer numbers drop.

And then having so many elk it's also caused this winter to be so deadly.

That is why I do blame CWMU'S as they have kept these numbers to high!!
 
Focoelkman said:
If you were seeing that many elk you were hunting in the wrong spot .
Click to expand...

Give me a little credit.

I was hunting the right spots the deer numbers are way down.

I guided there and hit all the good spots infact sadly my buddy killed one of the better deer that public land hunters killed and it was not what we expected.

Also I know Deseret deer numbers are way down but also the elk quality is hurting. I feel that less elk numbers wod bring quality up for elk as there killing older elk but not quality elk.
 
fullthrottle said:
I don't understand why this has been made such a big deal? Unless you are one of the regular client's or landowners that rules this particular area. You act like these animals are our public resource. When the fact is its 90% private lands that you likely will never get a chance to hunt... Why are we arguing over land and critters that most of us will never step foot on??
This reminds me of some sort of HOA, having some pain in the ass neighbors telling you what kind of tree's you can plant in your yard...
I agree, this thread is right up there with one of the dumbest ever. No worries, we've all had our moments on this site.
Moving on.
Click to expand...


If that's the case, despite the critters being the publics at large, not the CWMU then of course 100% the CWMU should feed. Why should the animals we do hunt, be forced to compete for feed with the "private animals"?
 
There would be no animals on the public in the area if it weren’t for the CWMU’s, or there would be very, very few.
Look, I hate the large private ranches/CWMU’s. Ahh, maybe hate isn’t the right term, jealousy might be a better fit.
But seriously this region is overwhelmingly private, and they do feed most of the critters summer and winter. They also care about the deer and elk that live there.
I’m not getting further into the mud.
My point is, I can assure you. Those who own/operate these places care as much as anyone about the big game that inhabits them. Just saying.
The cause of the higher than average winter kill isn’t because of the CWMU’s and there management. It’s just not.
 
fullthrottle said:
There would be no animals on the public in the area if it weren’t for the CWMU’s, or there would be very, very few.
Look, I hate the large private ranches/CWMU’s. Ahh, maybe hate isn’t the right term, jealousy might be a better fit.
But seriously this region is overwhelmingly private, and they do feed most of the critters summer and winter. They also care about the deer and elk that live there.
I’m not getting further into the mud.
My point is, I can assure you. Those who own/operate these places care as much as anyone about the big game that inhabits them. Just saying.
The cause of the higher than average winter kill isn’t because of the CWMU’s and there management. It’s just not.
Click to expand...
I don’t know man, opening my back door for the last 25 years, looking up on the mountain tells me otherwise. When the elk herd is over carrying capacity for what the range can hold, no amount of love and good vibes from the cwmu can help the problems it is causing. What happens when the CWMU stops feeding after years of doing so? I can tell you it’s not pretty. DWR has threatened for years to go in and shoot elk and leave them lay if they don’t start taking more animals, start managing the herd. I know because I’ve sat in the office talking about it. DWR has begged neighboring properties to kill more. Deer are suffering because of it, some of the best deer country and very few decent bucks. But it’s managed right? other farms and ranches are having big problems. Elk all over the hwy and train tracks getting slaughtered. Letting a herd grow out of control just because it’s private is not the answer. But it sure is cool driving down the roads seeing all these animals suffer.
 
My guess is the CWMU'S in the area that got hit so bad will not see a success rate decline on elk as there still going to have plenty of elk but the deer hints will again be worse in 2023!

Until elk numbers are brought back in line muledeer numbers will suffer and in 5 or ten years we will have this happen again unless we keep elk at holding capacity numbers.
 
So are holding capacity numbers gauged and set for winters like the record breaking one we just had? Or are they gauged on the 5, 10, 15 years in between the harsh winters when the game animals winter well and carrying capacity allows them to survive? I guess I don't understand carrying capacity... To me carrying capacity should be set for average winter circumstances, not worst case scenario.
 
Last edited:
Ok there is no questioning this winter was a bad one but also in areas that we are talking about winters are normally much like this winter but slightly less.

We need to be closer to normal winter capacity to not see die offs like this.

We have been way over objective for years now and it never bothered the animals because there was lots of room to find feed.

What I'm trying to say is if the elk Herd was at objective the last few years this winter the die offs would have been much lighter and in fact we would have more deer on the range today then we do.

We do not need elk numbers thousand of animals higher then capacity just so people can go on these ranches and see 40 bulls a day when there just as happy seeing 10 or 20 bulls a day and my feelings is the elk quality will actually get better.

P.S elk Quality is not the same as elk numbers!

If elk numbers come down deer numbers go up! We can have more deer and still have plenty of elk and most likely better elk.

So to be more specific on you're question biologists have already set a number for elk capacity that's where we need to be....
 
I shouldn’t even respond to this crazines,but I can’t help it. Notrace i don’t have any faith in what the fish and game does. You keep throwing out this over objective bull crap, and bull to cow ratio. I’m not a fan of either.Take some advice and don’t think what they say is all mighty gospel. Because it’s not. Thank god for tribal ground on the south slope because if there wasn’t there wouldn’t be an animal left If the dwr was managing it. It was a terrible winter so animals die. Look at it this way. If we only had half the elk you say we have, maybe they all would have winter killed. So thank god there will be some that will make it through. I’m not saying any more on this thread.
 
fullthrottle said:
So are holding capacity numbers gauged and set for winters like the record breaking one we just had? Or are they gauged on the 5, 10, 15 years in between the harsh winters when the game animals winter well and carrying capacity allows them to survive? I guess I don't understand carrying capacity... To me carrying capacity should be set for average winter circumstances, not worst case scenario.
Click to expand...
Only Mother Nature decides what the carrying capacity is. Man has little, if any, control.
 
Horsecorn said:
I shouldn’t even respond to this crazines,but I can’t help it. Notrace i don’t have any faith in what the fish and game does. You keep throwing out this over objective bull crap, and bull to cow ratio. I’m not a fan of either.Take some advice and don’t think what they say is all mighty gospel. Because it’s not. Thank god for tribal ground on the south slope because if there wasn’t there wouldn’t be an animal left If the dwr was managing it. It was a terrible winter so animals die. Look at it this way. If we only had half the elk you say we have, maybe they all would have winter killed. So thank god there will be some that will make it through. I’m not saying any more on this thread.
Click to expand...


It's only craziness if you think that actually trying to manage Wildlife is stupid!!

I've never mentioned bull to cow ratios that tell me you are only reading what you want to read and adding to it.

The fact remains there are to many elk on the winter range period.

People saying there's no such thing as to many are clueless!!

I don't blame you for not trusting what the DNR does! They have screwed up I think they should have grown a set and told these cwmu's that if they want to get these tags then they need to kill X-amount of cow elk and bring elk into objective otherwise they can have there hunters apply for general tags and hunt that season!! Instead they have let these CWMU'S get away with whatever they have wanted to do.
 

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