I'm a SFW supporter KUTV!

M

muley75

Member
Messages
50
I'm ready for the beating but I'm sick of sitting back and reading the slander on SFW. So KUTV I'm a supporter of SFW BIG TIME!!! Don Peay and the SFW executives are all good men and do great things for our State!

There has never been another organization that has had Utah's fishing and hunting best interest at heart than SFW. They have dedicated more time and energy than anyone else. You cannot go anywhere in the State and not see where the funds they raise have effected the State for the good. Name another organization that has done more! Sure is not REMF!!

Truth is they should not exist if we could rely on the DWR, Forest Service, and BLM. But obviously these Government agency can't seem do get it done either. There are a million reasons why, many are which are lawsuits from Anti groups. Now we even have hunters tearing down the system! DWR and the Governor have allowed the system to grow BECAUSE IT WORKS!!

How many millions of dollars do these agencies get. DWR I believe gets 67 million of your tax dollars! How is it spent!!!! That is my money and I want transparency on every dollar. Guess what it doesn't work that way.

I could go on all day! This is ridiculous!

Scott Christensen
Loa, Utah
[email protected]
 
Scott,

I appreciate your respectful position. So many others have resorted to pure condescension and being a jerk. Your post, although I don't agree entirely with it, did neither. So thank you.

I have a question for you. When you talk about how much SFW has done for fish and fisherman, does it trouble you that they actively worked to take over 2,000 miles of public water out of public use for fisherman? This is not rumor or innuendo. I witnessed this. I sat at the table with SFW representatives, including Don Peay personally, when he lobbied for this to happen. What exactly did removing thousands of miles of streams across the state do for fisherman in Utah?
 
You bet! Come on down to the next project that actually does some good for the State! Send me your email and I'll personally make sure you get invited to do something positive.
 
Yes it did both me that that was taken, I wished it would have worked out differently and I let SFW know I was frustrated with there stance.

I also know many private landowners who were equally frustrated that sportsman who would not follow the law and kept crossing there property. That was a tough issue no doubt.

I also know that when I sat on the Fish Lake Elk committee the only group fighting for that Elk herd was SFW. We had to call and beg RMEF to please support us in the RAC process to get that herd where it is today. They finally showed up at the last meeting. I know for a fact RMEF did not have Utah's best interest at heart when it came to Wolves they only were trying to protect Montana and could careless about here in Utah.

There are many issues when it comes to wildlife. They are hard, it gets personal, and it costs lots of many. Mistakes will be made, it is a part of life. But name calling and slandering others will never result in success!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-16 AT 10:04AM (MST)[p]Call it slander, call it whatever you like. Utah hunters are SICK and tired of the BS!
It's simple.....show is where the 5 million+ has been spent. This isn't going away until:
1- the funds have all been accounted for since the expos conception
2- transparency is shown from the beginning and going into the future.
Ample time has been given for SFW to show where the money went. As long as Jon Larson continues to decline interviews and not open the books, this isn't going away. So get used to it.
30% has been accounted for, now let's see where the other 70% went. Still millions to be accounted for.

no road trip needed.

Nobody has said they don't do anything. We are claiming that they could do more. A lot more. They know what they need to do. We all will continue to wait.

Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning
conservation...
"The movement for the conservation of wildlife,
and the conservation of all our natural resources,
are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and
method."

"We do not intend that our natural resources shall
be exploited by the few against the interests of the
majority. Our aim is to preserve our natural
resources for the public as a whole, for the
average man and the average woman who make
up the body of the American people."

"It is in our power...to preserve game..and to give
reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the
skill of the hunter,whether he is or is not a man of
means."
 
For my information-- are 501-3c non-profit orgs required to disclose publicly what they specifically use of their" income" for salaries, meals, trips etc.?
I have seen the reports and audits of the moneys raised from the various Conservation groups and their banquets, fundraisers etc. concerning the permits given to them to auction/raffle. The last audit report that I have seen showed that all monies raised from those events had been accounted for. The money has been used on or would be used on approved conservation projects within the 2 year required time frame. Even the interest earned from those trust accounts were included in the total required to be used on projects.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-16
>AT 10:04?AM (MST)
>
>Call it slander, call it whatever
>you like. Utah hunters are
>SICK and tired of the
>BS!
>It's simple.....show is where the 5
>million+ has been spent. This
>isn't going away until:
>1- the funds have all been
>accounted for since the expos
>conception
>2- transparency is shown from the
>beginning and going into the
>future.
>Ample time has been given for
>SFW to show where the
>money went. As long as
>Jon Larson continues to decline
>interviews and not open the
>books, this isn't going away.
>So get used to it.
>
>30% has been accounted for, now
>let's see where the other
>70% went. Still millions
>to be accounted for.
>
>no road trip needed.
>
>Nobody has said they don't do
>anything. We are claiming that
>they could do more. A
>lot more. They know what
>they need to do. We
>all will continue to wait.
>
>
>Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning
>conservation...
>"The movement for the conservation of
>wildlife,
>and the conservation of all our
>natural resources,
>are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and
>
>method."
>
>"We do not intend that our
>natural resources shall
>be exploited by the few against
>the interests of the
>majority. Our aim is to preserve
>our natural
>resources for the public as a
>whole, for the
>average man and the average woman
>who make
>up the body of the American
>people."
>
>"It is in our power...to preserve
>game..and to give
>reasonable opportunities for the exercise of
>the
>skill of the hunter,whether he is
>or is not a man
>of
>means."

+1!
It's not the fact that they haven't done anything We all know they have. But it's the question of where is rest of the money going! They need to open their books and if they won't then that smells fishy! I'm not ok with people getting rich by tricking people into think the majority of money is hitting the ground. Cause it appears it's not!
 
BillyBOB everyone has opinions.

Mine is a simple one, I SUPPORT THEM!

We all could do more for Communities and State.
 
Scott-

Thanks for posting. I have met some good folks who are supporters of SFW. SFW does some great conservation projects in Utah, many of which are funded with Conservation Permit funds. All we are asking is for SFW to treat the Expo Tag revenues the same way they do the Conservation Permit revenues -- earmark them for projects and account for them. It is pretty simple.

As an SFW member, do you know why SFW turned down the opportunity to speak with the reporter and explain SFW's side of the story?

-Hawkeye-
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-16 AT 10:38AM (MST)[p]HHMMMM I thought the handle was 73 not 75 are you another of DC's sons?



edit: spell chek
 
There you go again hawkeye. You and others keep saying it needs to be put back on the ground. SFW continues to say it is. You say prove it. They say prove it doesn't. The money is accounted for. Your just mad that your demands are not being met when in reality SFW is doing what is required.
 
Birdman-

Isn't that a "catch 22"? SFW wants the public to prove that SFW is not using the money for actual conservation? How are we supposed to do that when SFW is the party with control of the money and all of the records? Doesn't that seem backwards to you? Is that how you account for public assets? Is that what Don Peay meant when he said the public had the right to ask how much money was raised and how much went onto the ground?

I have noticed that you have not responded to Post #138 in the other thread. I provided you with the direct quote and a copy of the official minutes as your requested. Still waiting. I look forward to your response.

-Hawkeye-
 
Your right birdman. I'm sure the money IS "accounted for". They know exactly how much has gone into their pockets. Now we just need some bigger holes in their pockets so more than 30% will hit the ground.
 
I have no idea what Jon told KUTV on turning down the opportunity to talk with them. I am not that involved.

I would love to have a chance to talk with KUTV an show them why I support the organization. It appeared to me they only took one side of the story. My guess, no matter what Jon told them you would have been critical on your post.

Point is simple, I like the organization and I want KUTV to know that. I have ready every ones post for years. I have no intention of getting into a debate with everyone. That would be pointless.
 
Fair enough. However, you cannot criticize KUTV News for not telling SFW's side of the story when SFW turned down an opportunity to do just that -- tell its side of the story. Thanks.

-Hawkeye-
 
Hmmm 30% 70% 100%. All nothing more than numbers. What the issue should be it what is being accomplished overall. Overall the SFW has done more for the state than any other group. That is just a fact. Taking the funding for an organization that has proven it can have a positive impact with wildlife in the state seems counter productive. That is the goal of most of the anti SFW crowd. I'll ask one final time. If SFW goes away tomorrow who is going to give the Sportsman of Utah an organized and meaningful voice. A voice that holds weight in the governmental system in which OUR Wildlife is managed. Is this voice going to come from volunteers? Is it going to come from Internet posters? I choose to support a great voice, a voice that can make a real difference in the future of our wildlife. I choose that over personal and agenda and vendetta. Those screaming are not going to bring anything positive to our state in the way of wildlife conservation. It's not their goal. Never has been and never will be. Hawkeye calls for transparency over all else (while hoping that this tranparency topples the SFW). It's his personal crusade, he's rallied troops ( troops that hate the SFW above any wildlife conservation) Tell me if he wins how does that help our wildlife. It doesn't, it only damages and creats doubt and questions about a group that has been dedicated in its goal of wildlife conservation. Big Picture or Personal Agenda.....that's an easy choice for me.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-16 AT 12:21PM (MST)[p]You, your family, Birdman, and the rest of the SFW crowd should all be ashamed of yourselves! None of you, including the top SFW Official, will address the ONLY issue here and that's the 70% of the $5 tag charge that's going to SFW and not being accounted for. It's typical when a situation is brought up that those with something to hide go off course at every chance to take away from what is being discussed or challenged. Now this 30% 70% 100% is nothing more than numbers BS is posted by Cody and saying we want to take away the funding for the organization. That sounds like he knows some or all of that 70% is keeping the SFW mechanism alive, rather than being put back on the ground. He is actually now saying, just like his Daddy and Birdman that they don't see anything wrong with what we are trying to right. Well Brothers, if you can't see that they are the only nonprofit organization that is cheating their way to profitability by taking from the public trust IMHO your morals have been compromised somewhere along the line and you all need to sit down and take a look in the mirror. Just what other things in life will you justify as being okay just because it suits you and what you want?
 
As I've said in other threads, regardless of my personal opinion of SFW, my issue here is with the state. Of course, that connects SFW as they are involved, but the changes for me have to come on the State's side.

If the Wildlife Board is getting fed only by SFW, and SFW get everything they want because of that, that is not okay. If governmental contracts are awarded against the public trust in favor of chronyism or non-legitimate purposes, that is against the law and no, I am not okay with that. And neither should anyone else, including SFW members.

This issue is indicative of a much larger problem in Utah. You see what is happening with our two previous attorneys general. You see how we as tax payers had to shell out $13 million in a settlement because the winner of the bid (who has family connection to the governor) for the freeway reconstruction was actually not the best bid and it was awarded for improper purposes. The freeway will get done. It will hopefully get done correctly so we can all drive over it. So we shouldn't really care how we got there, right? The ends justify the means...

Again, SFW put in a bid and they were awarded it. SFW doesn't open their books because the State, the DWR, and the Wildlife Board don't make them. Maybe it is those folks that really have something to lose if "transparency" is achieved.

I am not opposed to expos, expo or conservation tags, or conservation groups making money. But these are public resources they are profiting off of directly with these tags. They should be accountable to the public. And the law says that they should be distributed in a manner that best benefits the public. This is an old concept called the public trust doctrine. Our elected officials clearly have no clue what that means. It needs to change.
 
M73-

You are just like your daddy. You pretend to know my "motives, agenda, goals, etc." but you have never even spoken with me. My concern, as spelled out in literally hundreds of posts over the years, is the the groups' accountability and transparency when dealing with public assets.

You can continue to argue that I really want to "topple SFW" or "settle some score" but it is pure fiction. The reality is that if SFW somehow were to topple it would be the result of pride, ego, greed and simply choosing a losing position and riding it into the ground. This issue could have and should have been resolved long ago.

Now continue with the fairy tales.

-Hawkeye-
 
My gawd Top you are a bitter old clown. I swear if am as bitter as you when I'm in my golden year I hope somebody does the world a favored and ends it quick.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-16 AT 12:31PM (MST)[p]Why would you blame kutv for sfw declining the interview that blame falls squarely on sfw. The embarrassing part is that is exactly what got sfw in this mess their we don't have to answer to anybody attitude.


I on the other hand have a new favorite news station kudos to kutv for being a stand up news broadcaster
 
Hawkeye,

We may not know what your motives are but we know you aren't being honest as to what they are.
 
Hawkeye,
Why always the daddy talk. I'm pretty sure I'm not the one whining and crying and throwing fits, if you don't get your own way you cry louder. I guess my daddy taught me that's not how to get your own way when I was a toddler. You throw your hands up and claim innocent yet you carry the banner and represent the voice of those that openly say they want the SFW gone. You keep bringing up tranparenncy yet you don't hold yourself to the same standard??? It shouldn't be a surprise you were 100% ok the attend the Expo and go hunt on the tag that you drew. Then suddenly you call them out for wrong doing. Run a campaign on the evils of crack yet smoke it yourself. Personal agenda and glory over Big Picture and Wildlife Conservation.
 
My daddy taught me when you see something that is not right, stand up and work to fix it.

That was the standard SFW response. Ignore the core issues and attack anyone who disagrees. I have posted many times on these forums that I was a member of SFW and attended the expo and I even drew a tag in 2008. However, I parted ways with SFW over this issue. And I even told SFW that I would come back if they fixed the problem and did the right thing.

Remind me again how I have failed to be transparent? Am I selling public tags in the name of conservation? If I was, I would fully expect to be required to account for the monies.

-Hawkeye-
 
>My gawd Top you are a
>bitter old clown. I
>swear if am as bitter
>as you when I'm in
>my golden year I hope
>somebody does the world a
>favored and ends it quick.
>

There was absolutely nothing bitter, but only truth in my post and you, Sir, along with your Daddy, Brother, and the Birdman are making absolute fools of yourselves the more posts you make.
 
The $5 money is only one part of a huge equation in my opinion.

So the question is how is 30% more that 100%.

No one would know this answer unless the contract changed hands.

The assumption is being made that RMEF would do as good of job as SFW on putting on the Expo that SFW built from the ground up and bring as many people to the expo. If RMEF falls short, then the 30% of SFW will put more money on the ground than RMEF 100%. RMEF could they type of show they wanted in SLC in previous years so it left the state to Vegas where they felt they could bring in a bigger crowd.

SLC didn't work for them then, I doubt it would now. But again just my opinion.I guess the State didn't think RMEF could either. I don't know I wasn't part of the selection committee.

I know I'm wasting time here. So off to Lake Powell I go with my son fishing!

So last time for today KUTV I support SFW!
 
>Hawkeye,
>Why always the daddy talk.
>I'm pretty sure I'm not
>the one whining and crying
>and throwing fits, if you
>don't get your own way
>you cry louder. I
>guess my daddy taught me
>that's not how to get
>your own way when I
>was a toddler. You
>throw your hands up and
>claim innocent yet you carry
>the banner and represent the
>voice of those that openly
>say they want the SFW
>gone. You keep bringing
>up tranparenncy yet you don't
>hold yourself to the same
>standard??? It shouldn't be a
>surprise you were 100% ok
>the attend the Expo and
>go hunt on the tag
>that you drew. Then
>suddenly you call them out
>for wrong doing. Run
>a campaign on the evils
>of crack yet smoke it
>yourself. Personal agenda and
>glory over Big Picture and
>Wildlife Conservation.

Please show us one post anywhere that Hawkeye or anyone else has stated they want SFW gone, although that could well happen if this transparency issue is ever resolved and the extra money made at the Expo goes where it should and the group can't survive without it. That may be why all you drinkers are so worried about this and keep yapping about everything but what is being discussed. Keep posting your BS, as it's all accessible to the press and will not help your cause one bit! I'm really surprised that the Don or some higher up SFW Official hasn't asked you guys to shut up, LOL!
 
73, no one cried and boobed more than your father when he didn't get his way with deer. Then he went the political route and got his way. That is how it is done. Keep attacking until you are proven right. No reason to hold the bar any higher or lower for those who don't hold the same opinion as yourself. Carry on with your better than thou life.
 
Hawkeye,
And then if you don't get your own way cry louder? No you don't have the tags but you're misrepresenting what your true cause is. Whether that was your original intent, toppling the SFW is what it has become. Your vocal supporters speak loud and clear. You've become their voice, their champion. Their support on this forum is what fuels your fire at this point. To not acknowledge that is either irresponsible, naive or plain dishonest at this point.

Top,
I'll give Jason his due because is digging in and looking at things on his own. You however are nothing more than an angry interweb poster. You literally bring zero to either side of the issue. Never did involve you and never will. I'm sure you will find another fight to jump in on and I'm sure you will stay on this one. Enjoy your golden years being angry on the Internet. I'm gonna spend mine hunting and enjoying life!
 
2 point,
Did he cry and whine. He worked within the system. For wildlife conservation. Not to topple an organization and look at financial reports. He got involved so he could push for his agenda. He didn't just cry on the web and to TV stations when he didn't get his own way 20+ years ago.
 
Cody-

Thanks again for ignoring the real issues and then telling me what my secret goals and hidden agendas are. If you keep playing psychologist, we are going to have to start calling you Dr. Phil. So whose banner am I carrying again? And what did I say that was dishonest? I am still waiting for you, your old man or birdman to point out one statement I have made that is not true. We both know that won't happen.

Keep deflecting.

-Hawkeye-
 
Serioiusly, I'm guessing not much will come of any of this. But if it does I will guarentee it will not be positive for our states wildlife. That is not the goal of Hawkeye. I never has been. Care on crusaders!
 
Hawkeye,
Well then I guess you're that ignorant. Take ownership of your ship captain. It's the right thing to do. The hypocrisy never ends.
 
There it is. There is that high moral ground, better than others attitude 73 likes to throw around. He says people should not throw a fit and then admits is father threw a fit. But his father's fit was noble and worthy. It was for wildlife conservation.

These other guys aren't allowed to throw a fit about wildlife conservation. They aren't allowed to work within the system. They shouldn't question anything, post on sites or have State powers look into the issue.

Will disclosure of the convention permit proceeds topple the organization? That is really the worry? I'd hope that disclosure of those funds wouldn't topple the organization, but if it did then the organization was probably doing something very wrong. Sure seems like 73's father toppled the ability of hunters to go hunting. Noble and morally high ground indeed. All depends on one's perspective.
 
Hawkeye, Your are my champion and certainly have valid points, BUT I am glad that SFW has the points. There are a lot more items involved than the the "fee" in running an organization. RMEF would spend the money on HABITAT and that's all. In this political world today we are run in part by the Eastern States and the large cities. There is a lot of "smoozing" needed by a organization to keep the "ANTI'S" at bay and that certainly would be subjected to criticism by many. As I remember SFW listed Peay's consultation amount along with other salaries. If they are helping wildlife and we know how much they make that should help a little to quench some of you out there for blood.

I am sure you'all will straighten me out.
 
73, you have repeatedly said Hawkeye is being dishonest about his secret agenda. But when he asks what that agenda is, you just repeat yourself. So I'll ask you, what's Hawkeyes secret agenda you keeping talking about? I'm sure we all, including Hawkeye, would love to hear.

And don't just repeat yourself again, answer the question and stand up for what you said or be a man and retract it.

This smoke-and-mirrors, change-the-subject brigade you guys are trying to run is getting pretty thin.

Grizzly
 
grizzly,
I clearly stated that in the earlier post. If you don't understand it I am not surprised at all.
 
>Hawkeye, Your are my champion
>and certainly have valid points,
>BUT I am glad that
>SFW has the points.
>There are a lot more
>items involved than the the
>"fee" in running an organization.
> RMEF would spend the
>money on HABITAT and that's
>all. In this political
>world today we are run
>in part by the Eastern
>States and the large cities.
>There is a lot of
>"smoozing" needed by a organization
>to keep the "ANTI'S" at
>bay and that certainly would
>be subjected to criticism by
>many. As I remember
>SFW listed Peay's consultation amount
>along with other salaries.
>If they are helping wildlife
>and we know how much
>they make that should help
>a little to quench some
>of you out there for
>blood.
>
>I am sure you'all will straighten
>me out.

So split the tags 100 to rmef

And 100 to sfw let them keep each other honest and try to out perform each other.

Guess who wins all of us
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-16 AT 04:36PM (MST)[p]cannonball-

Do you know how SFW is spending the majority of the Expo tag revenues? I certainly don't. You and others have suggested that SFW is spending that money on "scmoozing, lobbying and buying politicians." The SFW faithful and strongly deny those suggestions. Birdman says that they are putting it on the ground and it is our responsibility to prove otherwise. But that is kind of difficult when they have all of the records and won't even talk with a reporter.

-Hawkeye-
 
I love reading all these posts.

One thing I do know is that at least Hawkeye is respectful and gets his point across without being a complete ASSHAT, like that of TOPGUN.

Topgun, as Muley said, you bring absolutely NOTHING to this but angry, ridiculous posts aimed at doing nothing but cause problems. You call out so many people but I truly think you are the absolute WORST person on this entire site!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-16 AT 06:02PM (MST)[p]>I love reading all these posts.
>
>
>One thing I do know is
>that at least Hawkeye is
>respectful and gets his point
>across without being a complete
>ASSHAT, like that of TOPGUN.
>
>
>Topgun, as Muley said, you bring
>absolutely NOTHING to this but
>angry, ridiculous posts aimed at
>doing nothing but cause problems.
>You call out so many
>people but I truly think
>you are the absolute WORST
>person on this entire site!

Yea, I'm a real asshat because I'm not PC like Jason, but being retired and an old SOB that's just the way it is and I'll call out any SFW supporter on here that knows what's going on and still kisses Don butt! In case you haven't noticed, I haven't said anything in my posts that Jason hasn't even though I don't mince words on this subject and don't plan on kissing any SFW butts! Sorry about that, but at least you know who you're talking to since I don't have a disabled profile like you and a good share of the SFW crowd that's blowing smoke out their butts! You're lucky I don't live in Utah or the TV stations would have had this garbage on the news a long time ago and just maybe the SFW would have been transparent and out in the open with the public trust years ago, which they still aren't as I type this!
 
Kudos to KUTV for an excellent story. Hawkeye as always sticks to the facts and tells the truth. The SFW Kool-Aid drinkers having nothing but personal attacks and emotional appeals to hide behind.

It is time for SFW to be transparent.

I too was a member at one time, but couldn't get clear answers from the top. For a long time, I saw some good projects, and just hoped the rest of the money was being put to equally good use. The more one looked, however, the more it was clear that only a portion of the funds raised were going to the mission. We all know there is "overhead", but responsible organizations have no problem showing those costs an demonstrating they are reasonable and necessary.

It is when the money is not going to mission fulfillment and reasonable overhead that a group starts to hide the data. How much MORE could have been spent on wildlife! How much was siphoned off to enrich others?

There are lots of well meaning organizations that have been corrupted from inside when those running the show feel they do not need to be accountable to their supporters. It is time for a course correction within SFW. Unlikely as that may be, many sportsmen would support them if the money raised was really going for conservation. 30% is an insulting amount to return to wildlife.


Bill
 
Oh look, Lumpys boy is back from retirement.

Birdman, have you found any examples of where an endangered species has stopped anyone form hunting or accessing public land yet????

Yea that's what I thought, that's not a half truth of yours you like to talk about so much that's just a flat out lie.
 
75, it is okay that you support SFW. There are even some people that support Obama, even after 7 years of his disasters.

I met Don Peay many years ago when SFW was just barely getting started. I didn't like him or his style much right off the bat. He talked a good fight, and had some good ideas on paper.

I seriously considered joining SFW, early on. Over time, however, it became obvious that Don pretended to represent all sportsmen, but a great many of his ideas were not things I agreed with. I decided I didn't want him representing me, so I never joined, and I'm pretty sure that I never will.
 
>Top,
>Yes it is good that you
>don't live in Utah.
>It's ver very good.


Yep, you don't have to worry about that, but even living way up here in MI the southwest breeze we often get still brings the SFW stink up this way! Maybe it will go away permanently one of these days!
 
As an outsider reading all this crap, Ya SFW is a piece of crap. But I think the people of Utah are weak by not getting together enough with you State officials and getting to the bottom of a corrupt group. After all the people are the goverment. Get enough people together and form Your own org. and if SFW is that bad You should be able to get enough signatures to have them looked into.Utah has that reputation as a good boy State, well get all the good boys together and get off the internet where you are only letting them a holes have fun harping back at you laughing all the way. Gotta be a way You can ban together and not let them run your game & fish. Good luck. sometimes hard to catch crooks ,but they generally get caught in the end............BULL!
 
Nothing wrong coming out saying your a sfw supporter. But if you like A messed up orgaization than thats your opinion. Just glad the sfw failed in wyoming
 
My 2 cents.

1. SFW has done a lot of good projects, transplants etc.
2. SFW is an organization full of good people doing a ton of work.
3. The DWR is not very effective managing the budget they get.
4. Lobbying is very effective in government and wildlife.

My 3 biggest issues with SFW are:

1. Their strangle hold on the RAC/WB process. IMO, This strangle hold has been brought on by auction tags. These tags sell for huge amounts of money which directly benefit the Organization who sells them. SFW has the lions share of these tags.
2. The use of moneys gained from the sale of publics tags to lobby and pay salaries. Lobbying and salaries should be supported by the organization thru membership dues and donations. In my mind it is wrong to not use public resources to directly benefit the public resource in way of projects and transplants.
3. Last but not least, the recent debacle involving the DWR and SFW with the awarding of a bid that was clearly inferior in nature. All this after the RMEF turns in a bid on the last day throwing a huge monkey wrench into the plans of SFW and the DWR. The committee and thier explanation does not sit well with me.

SFW can do whatever they want with their own money. It seems the majority want transparency in money raised off of a public resource and a much higher percent (read 100 %) of those moneys to hit the ground on projects.
 
To the SFW supporters in this thread.

The issue is about accountability. We want to know whom SFW is lobbying with funds generated from selling a public commodity. Then we can decide as that public if we should be supporting the decisions the SFW have made.

It is amazing to see such a proactive organization in the state. I would love to support and get involved, but I cannot do that at this point because I don't know what they are doing with the public resources given them.

Just come clean and let the pieces fall where they may. If there is nothing corrupt going on then there is nothing to worry about.

Also, Keep in mind the RMEF can survive and prosper without having access to 200 high value state tags to auction off. They also have more experience organizing big events in every state in our great nation than the SFW could ever hope to have. SFW does one big event a year. How much of SFW's funding comes from events other than auction proceeds from the expo? I wonder if they could ever accomplish anything without the expo tag money or if they would wither away and die.
 
FYI Bucksnorts - The 200 tags that most are talking about are not auctioned off, they're the expo tags that you can pay $5 to apply for. And, the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation does get Utah tags and auctions them off. I know you want to jump in and voice your opinion, and that's cool. I just wanted to let you know that. Your post isn't quite accurate.

Here's a list of the conservation tags for 2016:
http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/2016_conservation_permits.pdf

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com on Facebook!
 
Founder I think he was referring to the convention tags as he specifically said the 200 tags.

And looking at that list even brings up more questions for me. Good grief RMEF gets less than 1 page of tags while SFW gets 3 1/2 pages of tags. Go figure. They get to keep 10% of that so another instance of SFW getting the biggest cut from more public tags. Correct me if I am wrong but did not RMEF say they were giving back their 10% of the sale of these tags also. Just what I have heard and I can't verify that myself.

To be honest conservation tags pi$$ me off more than the convention tags. at least the average sportsman/women have a chance at the convention tags and not just the wealthy. Just think 450 tags a year back in the draw that's 4,500 regular folks getting tags the last 10 years. Other states don't have to do this. WHY Utah?? I could even go along with 20 or 30 or even maybe 50 but 450 that is ridiculous. This could/should be a whole new discussion aside for the one going on now. And just to be clear my frustration on these tags is as much with the DWR as SFW if not more. its just that SFW always seems to get the biggest cut of the pie.
 
curlycoyote - The process for how groups get conservation tags and how many allows RMEF to get more if they wanted, or could sell them. You need to read up on it, as I can't explain it in this thread how it works. Kinda complicated. But it's not a system where SFW or MDF or whoever is just given tags to auction. They need to be able to sell the tags and there's a system in place to reward groups who can get the most for tags. That's why SFW gets more tags to auction, because they can sell them. But you should read up on how it works before assuming SFW is getting an unfair advantage there.

I agree though, I'm not big on all the conservation tags. I always knew it would get worse. More and more all the time. I don't like it. I'm cool with the expo draw tags, the conservation tags are the ones I don't like. Like curlycoyote, I'm cool with a couple dozen, but there are WAY too many. But you don't see those other organizations complaining about those!!! It's easy money!! Utah conservation tags probably saved MDF from going belly up a few years back. Good thing Tony helped MDF.

When it comes to getting huge amounts of money for conservation tags, it isn't as easy as some think it is. Not a lot of people are willing to buy a deer tag for $410,000. SFW has done a good job in getting buyers to show up and spend and arm and a leg to hunt something.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com on Facebook!
 
FYI-- the money that has been raised from the auctioned sheep tags has made it possible over the past few years for 5 more sheep units. The money has been used to capture sheep and establish new sheep units in the state.I know for the most part none of us will ever hunt sheep, but it is nice to see them in places they used to inhabit and can now see them on their historical ranges.
 
Founder I will do that it seems like if I remember it is some kind of bid process but I will look into it more. Thanks

Bottom line is I don't care what organization gets them there are just to damn many.

Last please answer my other question if you know. Did RMEF offer to give back their 10% on these tags also. I just want to know if it is true or not.
 
>FYI Bucksnorts - The 200 tags
>that most are talking about
>are not auctioned off, they're
>the expo tags that you
>can pay $5 to apply
>for. And, the Rocky Mountain
>Elk Foundation does get Utah
>tags and auctions them off.
>I know you want to
>jump in and voice your
>opinion, and that's cool. I
>just wanted to let you
>know that. Your post isn't
>quite accurate.
>
>Here's a list of the conservation
>tags for 2016:
>http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/biggame/pdf/2016_conservation_permits.pdf
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com
>LIKE MonsterMuleys.com on Facebook!

Thanks for the correction. I am aware of how it works. I even put in. I just wrote the wrong word in my angst.
 
>FYI-- the money that has been
>raised from the auctioned sheep
>tags has made it possible
>over the past few years
>for 5 more sheep units.
>The money has been used
>to capture sheep and establish
>new sheep units in the
>state.I know for the most
>part none of us will
>ever hunt sheep, but it
>is nice to see them
>in places they used to
>inhabit and can now see
>them on their historical ranges.
>


Again I did not say do away with them totally. But the number of tags is ridiculous in my opinion.
 
Let's not forget, 30% was not SFW's idea. Their idea was ZERO percent! Only after UWC and others got involved was the law changed to require 30% be used for conservation. We wanted the same 10%/30%/60% requirement that the Conservation Permits use, but I guess 30% is better than the 0% we started off with.

Since they are only required to use 30% for wildlife conservation they can use the other 70% for whatever they want. Sportsmen For Habitat is the non-profit they created to handle the expo tags and their finances are available online. The expo tag revenue is not kept separate, but about 50% of their total expenses are labeled "other expenses". More than $2 million per year. I have seen line-item expenses from SFH payed to Don Peay as "consulting fees" amounting to over $400,000. It's no mystery to me where the money is going, and there's not much chance they're going to publish the fact that they're using it to pay themselves.
 
Unfortunately, any conservation group that wants to stay viable in the long term has to have some way of generating money to pay for operating expenses. That's why most of the conservation groups apply for and receive tags to auction off at their various banquets and fundraisers. UWC seems to be having a hard time and Lee has stated that they will never ask for tags to auction. It just seems that every organization can't depend soley on membership fees. If it wasn't for Lee, UWC would probably be gone. Most conservation groups started out with a desire to make a difference in wildlife issues and really very little money- including SFW, RMEF etc. It just takes a lot of time and manpower to accomplish their goals. Eventually, it will lead to having fulltime paid positions. I, for one am glad that these groups are involved-- as sportsmen and wildlife enthusiasts- we are going to need all the leverage and help we can get to preserve our outdoor heritage. Support the ones that you can agree with and trust. Just stay involved. Wildlife needs your voice--
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-16 AT 09:13AM (MST)[p]>Unfortunately, any conservation group that wants
>to stay viable in the
>long term has to have
>some way of generating money
>to pay for operating expenses.
>That's why most of the
>conservation groups apply for and
>receive tags to auction off
>at their various banquets and
>fundraisers. UWC seems to be
>having a hard time and
>Lee has stated that they
>will never ask for tags
>to auction. It just seems
>that every organization can't depend
>soley on membership fees. If
>it wasn't for Lee, UWC
>would probably be gone. Most
>conservation groups started out with
>a desire to make a
>difference in wildlife issues and
>really very little money- including
>SFW, RMEF etc. It just
>takes a lot of time
>and manpower to accomplish their
>goals. Eventually, it will lead
>to having fulltime paid positions.
>I, for one am glad
>that these groups are involved--
>as sportsmen and wildlife enthusiasts-
>we are going to need
>all the leverage and help
>we can get to preserve
>our outdoor heritage. Support the
>ones that you can agree
>with and trust. Just stay
>involved. Wildlife needs your voice--
>
>
Yeah stay involved as when you see an organization abusing their privilege to 200 expo tags .make your voice heard and ask for transparency and accountability on where the money goes. Especially if they show not doing much conservation wise.
 
Good points Nebo. However, the State of Utah and the DWR should be focused on funding conservation projects and activities -- not conservation groups and the overhead expenses. The Conservation Permit program is a perfect example with a 90/10 split and annual audit that ensures the vast majority of the money raised is used for actual conservation projects. That same accountability was entirely missing from the Expo Tags. The Expo is a fun event but the State of Utah and the DWR get an F when it comes to making sure the money is used properly by the groups.

-Hawkeye-
 
Hawkeye, part of the problem with expecting the DWR to have the ability to generate the funds necessary to engage in habitat projects etc-- is that they are not structured as a state entity to conduct internal draws, fund raisers etc. I would dare guess that if they were to be mandated by state government to do those things in house, the cost and efficiency of those activities may be more than what it "costs" now.
They are firstly biologists and game managers that have to deal with the Federal Gov't on a number of issues as well. They really are not convention promoters. managers etc. For the most part they just want to be able to do the best they can to enhance and preserve our wildlife heritage.
I believe you are right to call into question the Expo tag revenue percentages etc. and the use of those monies. However, I also believe that we need organized conservation groups to help us fight the fights that will and do affect our future in regards to our hunting and wildlife heritage. One other thing-- its offensive to me that anyone would believe that every RAC only does what SFW wants them to do.( not saying you do) It is on its face, ridiculous and untrue. We honestly try to do what's best for wildlife and the hunting public generally. We listen to all voices that care to take the time to make their opinions known.
Also, when the Expo was began and the SFW and DWR was working on how to make it a win / win situation , there were and probably still are things that were and are,a learn as you go scenario. Perhaps, knowing what we know now and implementing those things in the beginning would certainly have helped. Let's just continue to make it better and improve it going forward.
 
Wow, Please explain to me why SFW and the DWR are in bed together ? working on how to make the EXPO a Win /Win? .

This concept is completely wrong. The DWR should make sure they are making it a win / win for the wildlife and citizen of Utah, not some special interest group.

No wonder REMF?s bid had no chance. The fox is in the hen house, and many of us believe the fox is leading it?

Cherry
 
Any conservation group could have approached the DWR and presented a plan to help increase available monies to be spent on wildlife conservation. It just so happened that SFW did it. RMEF, UBA etc could have but they didn't. The concept obviously has helped generate millions of dollars to help fund wildlife projects. One example is there are now 6 sheep units instead of 2-- all transplants funded by revenue from auction tags. There are a lot more that could be cited, just suffice it to say that the money raised has gone to many projects. What the whole situation has morphed into certainly needs to be looked at and I believe it is fair to question the current process and the percentage of money kept by SFW. Saying I'm na?ve in regards to MOST of the circumstances is hardly correct. I don't have any problem with folks asking the questions about where a portion of the money raised is being used. The portion of the money that is required to be used on wildlife projects is absolutely being audited and earmarked as required. I have seen the reports and where the money is being spent. If you think that more of the money should go back into the kitty for more projects, is a legit argument.
 
Nebo, respectfully, just because you say it doesn't make it so.

Option 2 is a perfect example. When a guy from frog town can hijack the Wildlife Board in to voting against the wishes of 80% of Utah's hunters and 4 out of 5 sportsmens groups the system is broken.

This isn't representing hunters or wildlife, this is steam rolling an agenda.

Add to this the way the WB is gerrymandered with SFW crony's and you have what you have now, a system whose constituents have no faith.

That's why this battle is being fought legislatively. If I stood in your RAC and proposed modifying the Conservation and Expo permit rule to mandate all money from these permits be remitted at 100% to the UTDWR how would you vote??

Maybe it's time that such a proposal be made to just find out.

Either way the RAC / WB system has become an afterthought to most.



"WE USED TO HUNT GAME TO
MANAGE, NOW WE MANAGE TO
HUNT"
Finn 2/14/16
 
Nebo it sounds like you are mixing the convention tag money and the conservation tag money up. If you have seen where every dollar is accounted for on the expo tags (convention tags) please post it, that is what everyone has been asking for. Not just the 30%.

The conservation tag money has been posted as to where it is used which I believe they have two years to do so but NOT the convention (expo) tag money.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Also I have another question maybe Hawkeye can answer. Who made the call to go to the RFP process? Was it the DWR or was it the WB or who? To me that really needs to be known.
 
No, I'm not mixing the two up. As I understand it the conservation tag (auction) is an outgrowth of the Expo etc. So I was just trying to point out the good that the money raised in the in regards to the program as it now exists. As far as the Expo tag money, it is my understanding that the 30% is audited and required to be used in the same manner. I have a call into the division to confirm that.
 
The DWR made the call move to the formal RFP process. I first learned about that decision on September 8, 2015 -- one week after the September 1st deadline in the DWR's administrative rule (R657-55-5). The DWR claims that it had been planning to move to a formal RFP process and even announced it during a private meeting in late 2014 but for some reason failed to spell that out in there own administrative rule that it amended in January 2015. As a result, RMEF is the only group that submitted an application for the Expo Tag contract pursuant to the process spelled out in the DWR's own rules and the DWR knowingly made a decision in late 2015 to proceed with the formal RFP process even though it conflicted with the process set forth in R657-55-5.

The good news is the DWR has stated that it will go back at a future date and amend R657-55-5 to authorize the DWR to do what it has already done. How is that for following the rules?

-Hawkeye-
 
Deerlove--I would vote to have 100% of the $5 application fee returned to the DWR for approved projects, however with this caveat-- Some of that money would undoubtably have to be paid to someone to conduct the draw and its associated costs. The DWR might get the money but they will have to pay someone. There is no way that every dollar of that $5 will get onto the "ground". There will no doubt be administrative costs involved. Maybe instead of the SWF or MDF or whoever keeping a percentage they would conduct the draw for a flat fee.
 
So-- Hawkeye-- what is your solution to fix what has happened ? I agree that the water is muddied. Should the division redo the whole process now and have everyone resubmit their proposals? I'm all for making the process clear and distinct but even when that happens the decisions made will not please everyone.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-16 AT 02:37PM (MST)[p]Nebo-

From 2007 to 2012, 0% of the Expo Tag money was audited and accounted for. Since 2013, 30% of the Expo tag money is earmarked for actual conservation and accounted for. 70% is still accounted for. No need to confirm that with the DWR. That is a fact.

You also stated that that "There is no way that every dollar of that $5 will get onto the "ground". With all due respect, that is exactly what RMEF offered. 100% of application fees + 50% of net profits + 100% of any Utah conservation/governor's tags auctioned at their National Convention + a fully independent audit.

-Hawkeye-
 
Hawkeye-- you know where the 70% goes-- it goes to the conservation org conducting the draw for administrative costs. Now, should the 10% of the conservation permit money also be subject to state audit-- that would include SFW, RMEF, UBA, etc.The agreement states that the conservation org can keep 10% for administrative costs. Should all of them be required to disclose exactly what they use the money for ?
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-16 AT 02:58PM (MST)[p]>Hawkeye-- you know where the 70%
>goes-- it goes to the
>conservation org conducting the draw
>for administrative costs. Now, should
>the 10% of the conservation
>permit money also be subject
>to state audit-- that would
>include SFW, RMEF, UBA, etc.The
>agreement states that the conservation
>org can keep 10% for
>administrative costs. Should all of
>them be required to disclose
>exactly what they use the
>money for ?

Yup all of them should.

70% for administrative cost doesn't that seam high to you.

And what about the 20$admission fee or the 10% from auction tags.
And the booth fees for vendors.

Rmef obviously thought they could still cover administration fees and still give 100% back to conservation.

Enough of excuse after excuse for sfw

Even though their name has been drug through the mud they still won't tell you where that money goes.

What does that tell you
It doesn't take a rocket science to figure this thing out.
 
Rich-

I don't know where the 70% goes. I know that they keep it and use it as they see fit. They previously did that for the full 100%.

I personally would be comfortable with the groups keeping 10% of the Expo Tag revenues to cover administrative expenses. That is exactly what we proposed to the Wildlife Board back in 2012 with our proposed rule amendment. Unfortunately, that was rejected. 30% is better than 0% but it is still woefully inadequate. Why not have a 90/10 split with the Expo Tag money just like we already do for the Conservation Tag money?

-Hawkeye-
 
Richard, maybe you missed my question in post 74, or maybe my old eyes ain't working, but would you please answer my rule amendment question when you have a second.

Your opinion matters.
Thanks



"WE USED TO HUNT GAME TO
MANAGE, NOW WE MANAGE TO
HUNT"
Finn 2/14/16
 
WW- thought I had answered your questions already-- sorry for the delay.
In regards to the Option 2 thing- Our RAC voted to leave the general season deer hunt the same, so that was our recommendation. I spoke with the Chairman of the WB who eventually broke the tie vote on the subject and put into place option 2. His explanation was it would now require the DWR to manage every unit separately in regards to population, buck-doe ratio etc. and take the appropriate steps towards the unit goals rather than on a region wide basis,which in many cases did not address the problems in particular units. As long as the region overall was meeting or moving in a positive direction toward management goals then there was no real urgency to correct problems in different units within the region. Other than the fact that now I can't hunt west of main street in my home town after a morning hunt east of it-- the 30 unit plan seems to be working okay and herds are doing better and hunter and tag numbers are being used to help improve hunting in general. (the past mild winters have helped immensely)
As far as the appointments to the WB. Quite frankly I was surprised at the number of SFW connected members that were appointed in this last go round. At the time I felt it could possibly cause some problems and it seems to have done that. I do believe that every one of them are honest, upstanding people who really want to do what's best for our wildlife. There is no question that they each have their own perception and beliefs concerning how wildlife ought to be managed, but every one of us have our own also.
In regards to the money raised through conservation permits (auction) and the 200 expo tag application and drawing. It is absolutely unreasonable to expect that all that the money raised from those things could go back to the DWR. In order to perform the drawing or do an auction, people have to be paid. If the DWR had to do it (which they admit is not there thing) money, effort and time would have to be spent in house to accomplish those tasks and a good portion of that money would never hit the "ground". It just simply takes people and time. The DWR is simply trying to do it the most efficient way possible and get the best return in $$ to use to enhance wildlife management. Also, every person who is fortunate enough to draw one of the expo tags also has to pay the DWR the appropriate tag fee for that species and that goes directly to the DWR.
Making your opinions known to the RAC or WB is like voting-- just because you vote for a certain person doesn't mean they will get elected or even if they do, they may not always support everything you do. Thanks for staying involved, even if you think the system is not working for you the way you think it should. Nothing in the system is perfect- its a journey not the final destination we are involved in.
 

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