Improve Utahs Mule Deer, privatize the DWR

[hossblur]

Recently as the economy crashed many local municipalities put out for bid their services. Contractors started doing mantinance, landscaping, etc. The results have been lower costs and better work. The DWR has failed for at least 19 years(big winter kill of 1992). Year after year they replay the same tired excuses, winter, loss of habitat, etc. Year after year we pay them to do a job, year after year they have failed. They are good at buying new trucks. They are great at getting raises, and better benefits. They have seen hunter numbers drop by about 150,000 hunters yet they still want to push the we need fewer hunters theory. Now we have new proposals from the failed agency. All of these proposals are based on numbers that they put out. Buck to doe ratios, micro units, etc.. How do they get these numbers? Doyle Moss knows how many deer are in his units, Deseret knows, any CWMU operator knows, many of us know. Who doesn't, the DWR. Before we give into them again I want proof they know something. Postpone for one year these proposals. Then, GPS there trucks so we can see how much time they spend in the hills. Put up for bid a mule deer number study to either a private group or even a college. Have the DWR do the same, with neither group sharing info UNTIL a RAC meeting when both can unveil them in front of all of us. My bet is the DWR isn't close. Yes we have lost habitat(along the wasatch front), yes there are predators(always have been), yup winter is coming(does every year), yeah we have elk(used to have a lot more sheep and cows), sure there is global warming(Al Gore told me so). BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT none of this matters if we just keep shooting in the dark. How are we going to come up with new hunts, times, numbers, units etc based on what?? Are the extended archery guys done? It takes 4 months to do the big game draw and I am to beleive they have the check station and hunter survey data for this year already? The director of the DWR had to cite himself for not knowing where his boundary was, pretty much sums up the agency itself. What do you think?

 

[muzzhunter]

Right now I think I'd be up for trying about anything. I'd say give it a try and see what come about. It can't hurt anything.

 

[VTelkchaser]

"Can't hurt anything" ???????? Have you read the proposals? Not being able to hunt next year because they have reduced the number of tags is sure going to sting a little if you're the one not getting a tag!

I couldn't agree more that the DWR needs to provide some sort of proof to their findings.

 

[muzzhunter]

I didn't get a tag this year, and I survived. If it means that they are going to start managing things in the right direction, I'd gladly sit out next year too. There are lots of other states to hunt. I don't know what the perfect solution is to the deer problems, but they need to try a different approach because the one they're trying ain't working.

 

[hossblur]

>I didn't get a tag this
>year, and I survived. If
>it means that they are
>going to start managing things
>in the right direction, I'd
>gladly sit out next year
>too. There are lots of
>other states to hunt. I
>don't know what the perfect
>solution is to the deer
>problems, but they need to
>try a different approach because
>the one they're trying ain't
>working.


And this is the reason they have failed. "hey lets try this, just to try it. We need to do something so it looks like we are doing something" The "do something" approach is always the best idea in politics so in wildlife management it is sure to work. The DWR is trapped in their own little box of thought. WE need outside thought. You can't just keep cutting out more and more hunters (I know SFW would love it). The buck to doe ratio is useless. If you have 6 deer and 3 are bucks, you have a 50% buck to doe ratio, of course you only have 6 deer total so who cares? WE can't need more deer and then have an extended archery hunt and dedicated sportsmen( I was one and it is NOT about wildlife it is a money maker) We can't decide to have 90,000 hunters then give away a million tags to conservation groups. In short wildlife management is science. The DWR uses it as a revenue source and that is why we are where we are. We have to have science injected back into the process.

 

[Tree]

A-&^$&^*%$-men!

www.bowhuntersofutah.com

 

[4orMore]

I like it.

 

[tedcrf450]

>A-&^$&^*%$-men!
>
>www.bowhuntersofutah.com

+1

Maybe worry about Utah #s and not Nevada!!! Apparently no one from BOU has ever hunted Nevada!!

 

[iliveinthewoods]

I don't think it is about the DWR being capable of running things... Most are highly educated and have spent several hundred hours researching, learning, studying, and doing practical stuff...

Now, I am not saying that they are doing a good job, because they aren't, but I don't think privatizing the management of deer will work by any means...

Who would run it?
How would they do it?
Why are they choosen?
What is their qualifications?

I don't know of a single company that would know how to do this besides the division of wildlife...

There are several hundred factors that have affected the numbers...

All and all, something needs to change, but know one has the right answers to do it...

 

[Daxter]

A privatized wildlife management agency would look at lot like how they manage a big CWMU or Indian Reservation. Trophy animals sold to the highest bidder. A private company would be in it to make a profit, not provide a public service. The best way to maximize profits would be to limit tags and sell them for a premium price. That is how private wildlife management organizations work. Have you ever heard of a private ranch that opens itself up to general season hunting or that provides low cost access to high quality hunting for average sportsmen?

The DWR operates within a business/government limbo. They are asked to provide a public service, but unlike most government agencies they must fund their operations through the revenue they generate. However, unlike a business that runs on their revenue, the DWR can't charge fair market value for their product. Do you think a private company would sell Pavant elk tags or Henry Mtn. deer tags for the prices we pay now? The DWR operates like a business, but with government constraints. Privatization is a nice sounding buzzword after this Tea Party election, but I don't see it working well for a state wildlife management agency charged with providing a public service. That is my take on the issue.



Dax

There is no such thing as a sure thing in trophy mule deer hunting.

 

[Tree]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-09-10 AT 11:15PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-09-10 AT 11:15?PM (MST)

>>A-&^$&^*%$-men!
>>
>>www.bowhuntersofutah.com
>
>+1
>
>Maybe worry about Utah #s and
>not Nevada!!! Apparently no
>one from BOU has ever
>hunted Nevada!!

I was responding to his second post concerning biological management, not the first post and yes, I've hunted Nevada.


www.bowhuntersofutah.net

 

[ELKOHOLIC]

Good post Dax.

Hossblur wrote,

"The director of the DWR had to cite himself for not knowing where his boundary was"

Have you ever made a mistake? I didn't think so. I would say that he is an ethical hunter by his actions. Last I checked that is not a bad thing.

 

[hossblur]

Dax, isn't mule deer numbers based not on actual or even best estimates, but on models? Who made the model? Who injects the data the model uses? The DWR made or had the model made, they inject the numbers then they "interpret" the data. So if at any of those steps they are wrong isn't the result then also wrong? What did the 5 or 3 day hunts accomplish? Who said we should cut hunter numbers in third from its heyday? How does delivering proclamations or painting the DWRs office help big game in utah(dedicated sportsman). THE DWR did all of the above, hows that turned out? Now lets have some honesty about what privatization(or semi privatized) game management would look like.

1. Because it is wildlife management and not COPS, only biologists and not POST grads would be in the field.

2. We wouldn't guess, guessing in the private sector costs money. Do you think the buisness you work for just guesses on what it is doing? NOPE, decisions are based on facts, and studies, mostly done by outside agencies.

3. Failure equals firing. If your the big game boss and for 20 years deer numbers have plumeted, your fired. Promotions are based on success not just being employed for the longest time (seniority)

4. Large companies are broken into pieces (micromanagement). No one with half a brain can think that what is going on in Fairview with deer is the same as whats going on in Salina, yet they are both in the same region.

5. Employee tracking. GPS vehicles. While we know there are dedicated employees we also know there are slugs. We can't have the slugs hanging out in town then guessing as to whats going on.

6. Know your customer. CWMUs were created to allow failing buisnesses(livestock) sell permits to help maintain there buisness. THIS IS NOT THE STATES PROBLEM!! In what buisness do get to sell product you didn't buy? The state get the permit fee for an animal it owns, the CWMU sells it for whatever it wants and gets 4 months to hunt it. In exchange the state is given a couple of tags. 90,000 deer hunters in Utah, how many are hunting CWMUS? The customer is the 90,000. If these ranches can't be viable as livestock operations, perhaps they should sell their ground, some of which might be bought by the DWR to be used by their customers(yup some might stay private). Let Deseret for example, pay the state per head of elk, deer , etc. on its CWMU. The DWR should be in the buisness of opening access, not encouraging more and more CWMUs.

7. Good employees are paid a competitive wage. If RMEF or MDF or whoever is paying there top biologists a wage, we should pay our top people the market wage. HOWEVER, poor, bad and lazy employees are cut loose, same as any other buisness.

Questar is a private company that operates in Utah. It is constrained by goverment and has to operate on that edge between government and buisness. What do we get? The cheapest natural gas in the country and a dividend paying company. It could work in wildlife management also. HELL, could they do any worse than the current DWR framework?

 

[Daxter]

If you fired every director that failed to grow more deer you would have a lot of turnover. The honest truth is that the DWR would really like to grow more deer. So would NDOW, CDOW, IDFG, WFG, etc. Every western state would like to have more mule deer, yet based on your criteria they have all failed and should be fired. Obviously there isn't a single state wildlife management agency that has figured out how to grow mule deer numbers when environmental conditions aren't favorable. These agencies are pretty diverse, there are lifelong avid sportsmen, good ol' boys, lots of folks with advanced college degrees, people with agricultural backgrounds, individuals from "Back East". You can find a little big of everything in a wildlife management agency, are all those people incompetent? Are all western wildlife management agencies failures? Time to wipe the slate clean and start over? I just think your arguments are extreme.

Dax

There is no such thing as a sure thing in trophy mule deer hunting.

 

[dwalton]

This idea is so misguided it borders on lunacy! Employee tracking? Why don't we just put house arrest ankle bracelets on them as well?

I'm sure Teddy Roosevelt would be turning over in his grave. The modern conservation model is based on the idea that the wildlife belongs to the people, not some company. I'm pretty sure the idea of state and federal land supporting wildlife owned and managed by a private company would bring outrage from the public hunter! Privatization would also result in the European model of wildlife management, where only the elite have the opportunity to hunt. Charges by the inch would be the norm.

Let's also look at not just the deer, but all the wildlife. Do you honestly think Utah would ever have a public draw sheep, mtn. goat, or moose draw? Ever? Not when these species would command five-figure to six-figure costs!

What about the conservation organizations? Do you think the Expo would have 200 tags? Not when they could be sold on the open market! Kind of hard to build memberships and volunteer organizations when the opportunity to hunt would be determined by the size of one's wallet. How much would be donated to wildlife if the auction tags weren't tax-deductible? What about state wildlife agencies working together on transplants? Kind of hard to do when it all becomes part of the bottom line.

I'd say there is already enough privatization. If you want to spend the $$$, a person can hunt trophy game every year in Utah. Public land and public wildlife is what makes the West such a special place.

Private services and private wildlife management are two entirely different things. Private wildlife would result in diminished public opportunity and a rapid escalation in costs.

 

[AWHOLELOTTABULL]

Privatize big game????? hoss buddy, I can't believe I'm seeing that statement come out of your computer! I thought you were the anti-private guy (as in item #6). What's up man are you getting soft on me?


It's always an adventure!!!

 

[muleydoc]

Your TOO late with this suggestion. Utah's game management is already privatized/being run from an outside interest (and has been for a few years now). It is called SFW.

Muleydoc

 

[BradN]

Privatization is already here.

It's already privatized. SFW.

 

[ALongShot]

There is only one lodgical thing to do to solve the mule deer problem in the state of utah- and that is join colorado to form a mega hunting state. Trophy bull elk in the western territory (the old utah), and more mule deer than you can shake a stick at in the east (the old colorado). We will call it Coloratah. It will be hunting bliss. Think about it, finally we will have deer in utah again (and real beer). But what do we do with the hippies....

 

[hossblur]

Again Questar gentlemen. Let me ask you, who sits on the wildlife board? Who is the DWR director? Did you personally vote for either? Why not? Aren't you a share holder? Why not? Who funded them? Yeah Dax, it is extreme. But then perhaps I am the only one who thinks losing 250,000 hunters, ten hunting days, and perhaps 200,000 deer in Utah is extreme. You mentioned enviromental conditions. I guess the environment on Deseret is different than on Monte? Same area, same range, same trees, etc. Or did winter not hit on the henry's/ Book cliffs? Guess there is never drought on the Pauns? Yes, GPS tracking the DWR trucks. Ever see a Walmart truck? They are tracked. The place I work tracks all there employees. Most private buisness does. Yup, your the CEO of a company and you fail to reach goals, your gone. Or perhaps we should just keep pumping money into the DWR to do what?? I am in the middle of a 107 day duck season. DU (a private org) is perhaps more responsible for that than any state DWR, there are birds everywhere, regardless of drought, winter, sunspots, whatever. Why, because that group is solely dedicated to ducks, not deer not elk. Perhaps the DWR is spread to thin, I could take the argument. I also believe that hunting is the second or third biggest industry in the state but receives almost no funding from it. That is our fault, skiing gets tons, our industry should too. No, I don't think you privatize hunting, but yes you can use private buisness framework to run the DWR and we would be much more successful. Again, if you enjoyed not seeing deer during your three day hunt by yourself(because your family didn't tag out) then keep on tweeking the system. I think we should burn the bastard down and start over. How many PHD students could do there thesis work on deer numbers? Free, not managed by the DWR, outside info that would produce numbers. Too far outside the box? Maybe the DWR should get out here as well, because the box they are in is way to small and too constricted.

 

[dwalton]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-21-10 AT 11:09AM (MST)[p]Again, Questar: It's February and 25 below zero with 3 ft of snow on the ground. It is easier to produce gas and flow it down the pipeline (if you know anything about gas production, you'll know why). What happens to your deer herd under these conditions? You are comparing two completely different things.

You are still under the delusional belief that privatization would lead to better hunting without any trade offs. Deseret vs. Monte? I'm pretty positive that the cost to hunt the Deseret is exponentially higher then the general hunt. Look at the cost of the conservation tags and CWMU permits. The demand for Western big game permits far outpaces the tags available. If based on "market price", the cost to hunt would rise exponentially as well (remember, public draws on sheep, goats & moose would be over, too).

I agree, that some out-of-the-box-thinking needs to be done, but I'll always argue that the majority of the Western wildlife should belong to the public!

 

[Daxter]

I just saw the proposed deer tag numbers for Deseret for 2011. They are cutting deer permits quite a bit because they lost a bunch of deer. I guess they need to fire the wildlife staff at Deseret and hire some new guys there too?

Dax

There is no such thing as a sure thing in trophy mule deer hunting.

 

[Daxter]

Hoss, in your post you compare trophy quality on Deseret to Monte and at the same time complain that you and your family weren't able to draw a tag and hunt together. At our current deer numbers you can have trophy quality or opportunity. With the demand there is for a limited resourced that is the trade off that we all have to make. Do we want to hunt every year in units with low trophy quality (Monte), or hunt only occasionally in units with higher quality (Deseret)? By the way, Deseret lost lots of deer during recent hard winters too, that so they are cutting buck permits so much this year to maintain trophy quality.

The DWR isn't perfect, but in recent year the DWR has done more habitat work, more predator control, etc. than any other western state. Unfortuntely deer numbers haven't responded like most of us would like to see. I agree that it may be time for someoutside the box thinking.

What are your outside the box ideas to grow deer numbers? I am not talking about firing the DWR director or putting GPS trackers on trucks, but specific measures to grow more deer.

Dax

There is no such thing as a sure thing in trophy mule deer hunting.

 

[hossblur]

Again for those of you that need to be lead by the nose. Questar is a private company, has a board, pays dividends,etc. They have a partenership with the state of Utah. They are in short a monopoly. They provide what I would say is excellent service at a good price(cheaper than anywhere else) yet are basically a government agency.

I say use PHD's or other ways to judge numbers because that is where the problem starts. I by no way believe that there are 300,000 deer in Utah. Forget buck doe ratios, I doubt highly there are 300,000 deer in Utah. If you start any science experiment(what management is) with incorrect numbers, no matter how good the experiment is your results are wrong.

All over the west there are fenced in areas that are done to see the effect of grazing on the range. My point, before we decide that utah is one big area, or even just five, why not take a few thousand acres and try a few things. On area go no predators, perhaps another play with season lengths, so on and so forth. Again I maintain that Deseret and Monte are a hell of a lot more similar than Deseret and Delta, or Manti, or you name it. NO CLOWNS I DON'T THINK THAT DESERET AND MONTE ARE THE SAME, THANKS FOR LEARNING READING COMPREHENSION! YUP micromanaging, but not just for micromanaging sake, but as an experiment to reach an end.

Pay for performance. Ever notice that the only people who don't think this works are government employees? People who have never been paid for performance somehow can't imagine that it works, but guess what, in a lot of cases it does.

Yes, you have to track your employees, sorry but I and everyone else knows that if your not accountable, your not going to do the job, just human nature.

 

[Daxter]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-25-10 AT 06:04PM (MST)[p]Hoss,

So getting better deer numbers is a priority. I agree, that will help. However, the bottom line is that sportsmen will probably never totally agree with the DWR's numbers. In all reality the ranchers will always say there are more than the DWR estimates, sportsmen will always say there are less.

You also suggest trying different management experiments in different units. I like that idea. Some units with limited season lenghts, some units with more intensive predator control. I have some other study ideas as well. 1). I would suggest eliminating elk from a unit or 2 and comparing to similar units where elk numbers are left alone to see what happens. 2). Another study would be to measure unborn fetus from dead roadkill does to calculate date of conception. You could then compare mean date of conception on units with high buck to doe ratios to units with low buck to doe ratios. If the units with low buck to doe rations show a later mean date of conception or a bimodal rut then we would know for sure that buck ratios are potentially affecting fawning dates and survivial. 3). Put some radio collars on some deer and transplant them to see if they survive. 4). Make major changes to livestock grazing programs on public lands (graze more like Deseret does) and see how it affects habitat and deer populations. I agree there are several things we could try and learn from.

What would be the measure of performance that DWR employees would be judged/paid on? Actuall deer population growth? Buck quality? Hunter success rates? Hunter satisfaction rates? Revenue generated for the DWR? Would this be done on a unit by unit basis or a regional scale?

Another idea I have tossed around in my head. This isn't quite like a privitazation of the DWR, but would let the majority of sportsmen have more of a say in wildlife management decisions. What if every couple years there was an election and everyone that had a current hunting license could vote for the sporstmans reps on the RAC's and the members of the wildlife board and DWR director? They could campaign based on how they planned to manage, and if they didn't deliver they wouldn't be re-elected.

I have worked in the wildlife field for private companies, and both state and federal agencies. Both the private companies and government agencies I have worked for want to see healthy wildlife populations and habitats. However, there is a different focus in the private sector, that focus is making a profit. No private company is going to want the job of managing wildlife if it doesn't include a financial incentive. To give them that incentive you will have to give control of at least some portion of what is now a public resource to that private company. We have done it to a degree with conservation and convention tags given to SFW and other groups.


Dax

There is no such thing as a sure thing in trophy mule deer hunting.

 

[hossblur]

I really like idea 2 and 3. I for some time have wondered why we hunt does(or cows for that matter) after the rut? Seems we kill 3 or 3 at a time. I realize Deseret(and I use them for an example only) is in a different place than public units, I just use them because everyone knows them. Here is what I have seen. My family owns ground on the west side of Manti. For years we killed only big bucks, and I mean BIG. Then the big winters hit(early 80's). There are no elk. There are plenty of cats, but there always have been, their is no grazing, and we were the only pressure. 20 years later their are still very few deer and almost no bucks. My personal opinion is that mule deer are in the middle of an evolutionary decline. They are very poor competitors for range, they are poor in their diet, etc. and may never rebound. If this is the case we can deal with it. My issue is that the DWR seems to jump from one plan to another, back and forth and round and round. I believe we have to start with the lack of overall deer. Until our herds greatly improve(and if my feeling of an evolutionary decline are true they may never) buck to doe ratios, hunter numbers, etc. are meaningless. My irritation with the DWR and my wanting to track them comes from the officer in Manti. I know there is a new one, but the old one lived in town, and that is where he stayed. Day after day that truck sat there, deer season, elk season, etc. The local ranchers were all pissed at him. The local RMEF finally did things to care for the big elk herds that wintered out by spring city. Out of town and need a tip as to where to start a hunt? Talk to the guys at the gas station, because he spent so little time on the hill that he had no idea even what to tell you. So when it came time to count deer, what does he know? His numbers are a guess and are therfore useless. However, if he had numbers, the conservation groups had numbers, and a private entity had numbers they could be compared and would equal a better result.

How do you grade officers? Time spent on the mtn. would be my first criteria. Overall knowledge of your area. Accuracy on counts. I will think on this for a while. While you can't acknowledge it publically, you and I both know the guys who are in leadership of the DWR are there because they spent the time in SLC shaking hands. The guys that need to be in charge are the guys that spend their time on the mtn. and know something, and WE NEED the non politicians leading, so we have to find a way to make that happen.

 

[Gator]

Maybe we should ask the Rac to do counts and compare them to the DWR counts? Just to see if they are close.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".

 

[trapper]

I agree whole hartly with what you have said.