It feels like a 270 but it killed that ELK DEAD !!!!!

W

Wyomingben

Guest
LAST EDITED ON Aug-25-04 AT 02:22PM (MST)[p]"RE: Deer/elk calibers"
Posted by Chef on Aug-23-04 at 11:29 PM
This will probably come in handy to everyone.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

Chef
"I Love Animals...They're Delicious!"

_________________________________________________________


From Looking at this chart, if I want a gun that kicks like a 270 but is a better elk killer the

7mm-08 Rem.
.280 Rem.
.270 Wby. Mag.

are in the same range. But how much better then the 270 are they?


The

.270 WSM
7mm Rem. Mag.

Are a little hot for me, with about the same recoil range.

The beloved

.300 Win. Mag.

Is off the charts for comfortable recoil. according to the charts.

Using any 30. Cal less then a .300 mag seems like going back to the dinosaur ages.


So between

7mm-08 Rem.
.280 Rem.
.270 Wby. Mag.

Which one?

I don't like the Weatherby, those guns seem more for looking at, I believe guns are for shooting, but if there is something great about this round, I wouldn't mind scratching one up.

So

7mm-08 Rem.
.280 Rem.

What is the difference and are they really any better then the 270?

For the Record if I was man enough I would tote a .338 around, I've just spent enough time in the elk woods to know a 15 lb. gun that kicks the crap out of you is not for me.

Thanks
Wyomingben
 
For what you have listed I'd choose a 280 if you have to change. But the 270 is almost a twin so why switch?

But why not a field weight gun in 300 or better yet 338 mag with a muzzle brake? The ones on my 300 wtbys make them seem like a 243. And a good brake on a 270 lets you see the bullet cut the target paper. IE not much kick. My 300s have been used with 180s and 200s by 3 small women so far with not a problem in the world.

If noise bothers you, wear earplugs and muffs when zeroing. One shot at an Elk you'll never hear anyway.

Last thought-- 35 Whelen packs a punch and recoil is manageable.

jeff
 
They make the gun extremely loud. Other than that, I am not sure. If you are looking for a 30 cal or 338 cal, look at the 338/06. Dang near the same performance of a 338 win mag, with out the recoil.
 
My feeling is, if you cannot shoot a rifle without a muzzle brake, the cartridge in question is beyond the ability of the shooter anyway. Sometimes a brake can instill false confidence. I realize the trend is bigger, better, faster, but basic shooting skills still apply. Just because recoil is reduced it doesn't mean a shooters skill increases. mtmuley
 
I've got a muzzle brake on my .300RUM and it is a pleasure to shoot.
On the bench, in the field, the felt recoil is about the same as my 7/08. The accuracy is outstanding and the only drawback is that it's, very loud!! But any .300mag is rather loud, muzzlebreak or not, so it's well worth the trade off IMO :7
 
MTMulie,

What exactly is a muzzlebreak and how does it work?

I guess I don't follow? What about scopes and bipods? What makes them any different then muzzlebreaks as far as shooting aids?

It seems to me I would rather see everyone in the elk woods shooting a .338 mag. There would be a lot less wounded elk never found left to die.

I agree a gun is only as good as the shooter. And a crack shot with a 30-30 is better then a flock shooter with a 338.


Wyomingben
 
WB,
A muzzlebreak is attached at the end of the barrel, either @ the factory, or by a competent gunsmith.
It's usually about 3'long and has "angled porting" all the way around the devise. This porting redirects and dispurses the gases created upon firing. The porting reduces muzzle jump, as well as, felt recoil, has minimal effect on velocities, but creates a much louder muzzle blast, as there are more escape ports for the sound to release from and it doesn't just go the direction of the bullet path. That's why the shot is so much louder to the shooter and those around him.
To me the "brake" is a definite aid, if your shooting a caliber that generates excessive recoil. I feel game animals such as Elk or the large bears require as much gun as one can shoot comfortably.
The "brake" allows that IMO. :7
 
Ballistically there is very little difference between the .270 & the .280. The availability of more bullet choices in the .280 gives it a slight edge. You should shoot the one you shoot the best as that's the one you will be better with in a must make shot scenario. The animal won't know the difference. I own both shoot both and love both of my guns. I have killed numerous heads of game with both rifles at close and far ranges with no negative results. Bullet quality today is excellent so you can find a suitable bullet for any thing you care to hunt up to Elk with the rounds. I would hold my bullet selection to no more than 160 grains in both calibers. I prefer to shoot no more than 150 grains out of each. Bullets today are made to perform well at those velocities. Shot placement is the key to making a quick kill and both of the rounds are known for their inherent accuracy. You also have the option to purchase some of the hot rounds today that increase performance up to 100-200ft. per second to almost magnum levels. Hope this helps a little.
 
Buckrub explained the muzzle brake perfectly. I don't mean to bash them, but if you can shoot your "normal" cartridge accurately, such as a 30-06 or .300 Win, why step up to a cartridge that needs taming? mtmuley
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-28-04 AT 09:48AM (MST)[p]I grew up in a family of meat hunters. We had large groups of 10 or more in our camps. Everyone tried to get a cow tag and about half the hunters had them. Our game pole always had at least one elk for every two hunters or better, mostly Cows and small bulls. We would have a big butcher party and divide up the meat. Those days are long gone, it was the 70's and 80's. I watched a lot of elk get shot. Back then it seems everyone used a 30-06 or 270. My dad bought a 7 mag one year and killed an elk by luck at 400+ I mean +++ yards and the next year a lot of guys got a 7 mag.

I sell a lot of Hunting videos on ebay, and as a bonus to that I get to watch them. Big guns are used in these videos most of the time on private ranches. So it is safe to say I have seen a lot of elk get shot, either on TV, in person or through my scope.

OK, here is the point of my story. 9 out of 10 time an elk dosn't even move when it gets hit the first time! He may stumble, and almost always you see it two, three, four shots to bring one down! Now if the the elk was scared and on the run before it got shot, good chance he will be swiss cheese before he hits the deck.

Deer and Antelope from what I have seen are much easier to kill, one good shot from a 270 or 30-06 usually tips them right over. Elk are just tough and big. I killed my first elk with a 6mm and many with my 270, I just feel with what I have seen over the years a 270 is just not enough gun for elk most of the time especially at 250+ yards.

Elk Hunting is really not my thing, I like Deer and Antelope hunting better. Elk hunting in general areas is like going to a Denver Bronco Football game, there is orange everywhere you look. Horses are almost a must, but where there are elk there will be someone else there, a lot of people have horses. I'm talking general season of course. I am excited this year however because I drew a special late season tag and my odds of getting a big bull are good, maybe the best I will ever have without paying big bucks.

I am trying to decide if I should get a new gun, I love my 270 and would like to replace it with something of the same weight and recoil. So if I get say a 300+ Mag utralight gun with a muzzlebreak and recoil pad, would it not be like my 270? Other then would it be really LOUD. What other disatvantages would there be?
 
WyomingBen,

That chart is a great reference. It does however, fail to mention more variations with rifle weight and bullet weight. These play a crucial role as well in felt recoil. I love the big bore rifles and usually hunt with .444 Marlin. (ported and Pachmayer padded) Now, I also only weigh in at 130 pounds myself, but the recoil doesn't bother me. (now)

I give you two options.
Learn to shoot while "ignoring" the recoil. At the bench, I SLOWLY squeeze the trigger and try to have the shot "suprise" me. I don't tense up in anticipation and if I start flinching, I take a breather. It took me a while but I can sight them in now! In the field, YOU WILL FEEL NO RECOIL.

Or, you could continue shooting what you feel comfortable with. This is a very good option as well since you know that bullet placement is crucial. Buffalo herds were depleted, while no one had any .338 Ultra Mags at the time.

My .05 cents.

Chef
"I Love Animals...They're Delicious!"
 
In my post I forgot to point out that a recoil pad can make all the difference in the world. A pachmayer decelerator pad or one of the other new tech pads like the sims recoil reducer pads will make it feel like you're shooting a caliber or two lower in some cases. Bullet selection will also make a difference a lighter bullet will recoil less when shot. If a muzzlebrake concerns you too large or bulky, you can ship your gun off to be magnaported and it will help with the recoil as well. I agree with chef that a .270 or .280 will work but I can tell you with bullet quality today the longer shot becomes less of a factor. Shot placement is the key as I said above and the new scopes have trajectory markings for extended ranges that help eliminate the guess work when used properly with a rangefinder. I am not a proponet of shots over 400 yards for the average guy but if you practice at those ranges with a bipod or rest the products today will let you make the shot. A bad shot is a bad shot whether it's with a .243 or a .338 magnum and we owe it to the animal to make a quick clean humane kill.
 
Wyomingben,

Like you, I used a 270 for years. I always felt I had to limit my shots, whether it was true or not. I just never wanted to shoot an elk past about 250 yards with it. So I bought a 300 winchester mag. I will never go back.

I do not find the recoil a problem at all, and I think the key is the stock. I have a Winchester M70 Classic Stainless, and I put a HS Precision stock on it. It fits me perfect and has enough density that it helps keep the recoil down. I would guess the whole system...rifle, scope and sling...weights about 9 pounds. Not necesseraily a mountain rifle, but I pack it all day.

I have a 180 gr load that I can get 3250 fps from. With this load and a 275 yard zero, my bullet drops about 24 inches out at 500 yards. I can judge a 24 inch drop on an elk. It still packs over 2200 ft-lbs of energy at that range...plenty to break bone.

Also like you, I live in Wyoming. We are blessed with rock gardens that go for dozens of miles without a soul in sight. Perfect opportunity to practice your skills out to 500 yards. If I have such a long shot at an elk, I am totally confident now in my ability to kill it clean, under one condition: Little or no cross wind (<10 mph.

Go for the 300...I dont think you will regret it.
 
Yep.

The load is 180 gr Speer Grand Slam, 76.0 gr Reloder 22 and Winchester Mag Rifle primer in a Winchester case. My rifle has a 26" barrel.

If you run the ballistics out you'll see what I am talking about. I use the Speer Infinity program. The loads were checked on a chronograph, and velocity not taken from a table. The chron agrees with friends loads and the ballistics add up to me.

I have not paper tested the bullet path past 200 yds, but there are a few rocks well over that range to testify.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-29-04 AT 10:11AM (MST)[p]I would go with a 7-08 with a 140 nosler out to 300 yards and call it good. It is a awsome caliber that has very little recoil and gets it done. Other than my 300 WM it is my favorite caliber with alot less weight. If my wife ever draws a tag this will be the one she uses.

My 330 WM has a Pachmyer decelerator pad and wood stock and I think it feels less than most 06 I have shot. Stock design plays a big role! Good shoot'n!
 
Cowboy, You must have one hell of a .300 Winchester. In my .300 Ultra Mag, a 180gr Accubond (bc .507), gets me 3320 fps over 96 gr of RL-25. Sierra Infinity, which I use also, shows me 23 inches low at 500 yards. But, I can step up to a 200 gr Accubond (bc 588), over 92gr of Rl-25 at 3200 fps, and still be only 24.7 inches low at 500 yards. An elk whacking SOB. mtmuley
 
I am not even at the max recommended load. I could put another grain of powder in there. Case heads are just barely starting to show pressure signs.

I think its the efficiency of powder burn with respect to barrel length. The case is full and powder maybe just slighty compressed.

MTMuley, I bet if you could put 2 more inches of barrel length with that RL 25 load you would be amazed. The only reason I dont go to 300 RUM or 30-378 is that I think the bang for the buck tails off with these bigger cases...though admittedly you do get some extra punch.
 
Cowboy, I disagree with your idea of the big .300's advantages tailing off. The .300 Ultra will do things the Winchester can't even come close to. I don't mean to be a pain in the ass, but I ran your load through Sierra, and it shows the 180 gr Grand Slam, with a bc of .416, going 3250 fps, with a 275 yard zero, over 27 inches low at 500 yards and energy of 1864 ft.lbs. Not much of a difference than your numbers, but I am sceptical that a .300 Win can come that close to an Ultra. No offense, just number crunching. mtmuley
 
Thanks for the posts, I think I'll shoot my 270 this year. I would like to shoot some of these guns, see how they kick and fit me before I buy one. Anyone mind letting me try there gun? Where do you all live?
Any Laramie guns here?

Thanks
Wyomingben
 
No problem MTmuley.

I am not sure what you input for environmental parameters, but I used values that are similar to what its like when I hunt elk...20 degrees, 8500 feet elev., 50 % humidity.

We can play numbers forever, but bottom line is the load will dump elk out there at the longest range I am willing to shoot. Thats something I couldnt say for the non-magnum classic calibers such as 30-06, 270, 280 etc.
 
Cowboy

You have a rare bird in your 300 winnie. Dont' shoot the barrel out. I have 2 in 300wtby and the best I can get to safely with 180s is about 3150 fps. One is 24 the other is 26 inch tube. 2 inches of tube seems to not make any difference though there are barrel and chamber/throat differences. My Oehler is calibrated with 22lr match ammo so I'm pretty sure of the figures.

Every once in a while you stumble into a performer, a "hummer" hang onto it. And be very careful.

Jeff
 
Cowboy, Could be your 26 inch barrel. Sometimes uncommon on a .300 Win. It probably helps your fps and energy. mtmuley
 

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