Join SFW in the fight against wolves

utah450

utah450

Active Member
Messages
244
I know that not all of you guys agree with everything that sfw has been doing to try and raise money for improved habitat. None of that will matter if we end up with wolves in Utah. Please pay attention to the upcoming racs and the wolf plan. We all need to educate ourselves and become involved on this issue, before we really are screwed. I have pasted an email stating sfw's position.

SFW Email
Subject: SFW Walks Out of Utah Wolf Plan Meeting - the Battle is on.

AT a fundraiser in front of 1200 SFW members Friday night, it was asked to choose one of the following:

1. Moderate position on wolves in Utah, let them in, keep impacts minimal.
2. Hard line keep them out.

people voted for moderate, the rest of the room said keep them out. This is consistent with membership polling.

The wolf working group has morphed into a pro wolf group, in fact today stating that the legislature said prepare a wolf conservation plan. When the statute was reviewed, there is no such statement, and the legislative statue says, Protect private property rights and investments made by sportsmen to protect big game. Just one example of many attempts to morph into a pro wolf position

One PHD from Utah State also said that the predominate NO WOLF statements ? some 783 people, and the early wolf hearings around the state were really not scientific or representative of the publics sentiment.

You can all come to the RACS and make that pitch once again to the RAC members.

SFW asked the wolf working group to include at least three things in the PROPOSED PLAN:

Private landowners and CWMU operators be allowed to shoot wolves on sight on private land

Assure sufficient funding to have sufficient data to know if wolves are having an impact on game populations, thus warrant management actions (don't blame it on the drought, winter, etc)

Ensure full market value and compensation to guides and outfitters, taxidermists, sporting goods stores and other businesses that will loose millions of dollars if game herds decline

The committee would not agree to these issues. The committee members do not appreciate or respect the investment of sportsmen, landowners, or all of those who work in the guiding and hunting industry. There was no need to sit around a table and waste more time. We left the meeting for this reason. You cannot get half way pregnant, you cannot get aids then believe the federal government will save you.

The USFWS has made it very clear: Utah is not part of the wolf recovery effort, and Utah does not have to have wolves if they don't want them.

THE RAC hearings will begin May 17. SFW, the Farm Bureau, Cattleman and Woolgrowers, and I believe Utah FNAWS will develop some alternatives to put in the plan for the RAC and Board. The Mule Deer Foundation, Elk Foundation and others will be asked to join, it will be up to them to make that decision.

It will be up to ALL OF YOU to come out to the RAC and Board meetings.

We will get you a full listing of RAC dates and times.

This is an issue that every hunter in Utah that has invested lots of time and money to restore wildlife herds, and is willing to invest a lot more to try and keep what Utah wildlife herds we have, as Utah human populations grows by 3 million more people. We made it very clear up front to the wolf group that our opinion was to invest what limited time and money there is into habitat protection while there is still a chance, not spending a million a year studying wolves.

Finally, a lot of sportsmen in Wyoming, Idaho, Mt, initially thought a few wolves might be neat or OK. However, after the Feds have totally fumbled the ball on delisting, and the anti-hunters will use the courts in every way possible to stop delisting, sportsmen from those affected states have said,

?Don?t make the big mistake of letting them in.?

This will not be an easy fight to win, but if you all will get out, we can win.

I know there are some folks upset with SFW at this time, they don't agree that conservation permits and the convention will make more habitat and allow greater herds, thus more hunting in the future. The past ten years data argues in favor of the SFW position, not the opponents.

This is a risky political position to take ? it will turn up the heat against SFW even more. This position was taken because this is the position you the members wanted, and the fight is on. It is not fun being in the cross hairs every day, but someone has to have the guts to stand up and call BS on the BS.

Don
 
I can't wait to hear what the spineless RMEF has to say about this. I'am not too sure that I'd want them on my team. You UTARD sportsmen need to fight and stay strong on this issue. As far as SFW......maybe Malone could use some company on his next hunt???
 
RMEF is supposed to have an article in the upcoming issue of Bugle about their stance on wolves. I wish I had kept the issue that they responded to my letter with the statement, "We believe the wolf is a viable part of a strong and sound ecological system" QUOTE! That's why I dropped them!


Oh and good luck in Utah! You don't stand a snow balls chance in H$ll!
 
Awe another intelligent well thought out statement by the Don. I see all his little red neck followers are just foaming at the mouth to simply agree and praise him for his efforts or lack there of. "If I can't have it my way I won't play and I'm going to tell the teacher":(

Come one surely there is some intelligent life out there? How in the he!! Are you going to draw a ?Hard line keep them out?? Where is the great idea to really "keep them out"? Oh wait I have a great idea. Lets put up a high fence from the UT/ID/NV border all the way across northern Utah through the WY border and end it at the UT/CC/WY border. That would surely do the trick wouldn't it? It would save all our elk that those dang ID/WY hunters are killing as well. I think that is it, that will solve all or problems right. Let's get the Don and SFW to start pushing that idea, maybe we should make it an agenda item at the next RAC meeting and we can use all those conservation dollars over the next five years to pay for it all!! GO TEAM GO!!

What a complete waste of time this whole wolf thing is anyway. Until they are delisted nothing can even happen. Any wolf now that finds its way into Utah receives complete protection from the feds. The green 'enviro wacos' won't let them become delisted for this very reason. Look what happened when WY tried their little red neck tactics it ended up in court and will likely be in court for the next 10 years. In my opinion, we are much better off letting the feds deal with them. Looked what happend to the three wolves that already made it to Utah. One was trapped and sent back, the other two were hunted down and killed.

Wake up Don!


Chuck
 
Coyote_Hog,

Your last paragraph is contradicting. You claim that any wolf which finds it way into Utah receives complete protection from the Feds. Then in closing you mention that one was trapped and the other two were hunted down and killed. If that is how the Feds protect wolves, I believe all sportsmen would be behind the Feds protecting wolves. However, the Feds will not honor any agreements they make with you. All you need to do is look at what they have done in ID, MT, and WY. If that doesn't wake you up look at MN.

Utah's Sportsmen had better get out in front of this one or you will loose a lot of your wildlife. When they first released wolves they assumed that only 5% of a wolves diet would be comprised of bull elk. Now that they have actually looked at the data; guess what? They were wrong. The now know that wolves diets are comprised of over 60% bull elk. They don't just kill the weak, old, sick, etc. That is "Walt Disney" talking. They kill whatever they can kill, whenever they want to kill.

Utah has no place large enough to allow wolves to exist without causing severe impacts and losses to livestock producers. In addition, they will wipeout big game animals in some areas all together or in the least remove any surplus population's of big game. Without those surplus population's, the American system of wildlife management will end. Why do you think they were eradicated to begin with? Hunters have long replaced wolves in the "circle of life". When hunters can no longer hunt, who will pay for the huge expense of managing wildlife?
Non-consumptive user's have already demonstrated their desire to pay for wildlife.

If you think wolves will not end hunting as we know it, you are dead wrong. Don't be lulled to sleep, the environmentalists/socialists plan on ending hunting.

Bury your head in the sand, but remember what you are leaving exposed.
 
"If you think wolves will not end hunting as we know it, you are dead wrong. Don't be lulled to sleep, the environmentalists/socialists plan on ending hunting."

The way I See it Don Peay and SFW are ending hunting as we know it! Is Don a wolf in sheeps clothing I believe so. Just the same as our neighbors warn us about letting wolves in Utah I would warn them about letting SFW in thier borders. Look at the facts: Utah in the past ten years has lost a ton of hunting opportunity for the general hunter. We now have the most expensive resident tags and the most restrictive Limited Entry system in the west!!! And each year we lose more Thanks to SFW. Yes we have become a trophy state, but now the plan seems to be to provide opportunity to those who can pay the most for the trophy tags. Our opportunity to hunt is also being reduced not by the wolf but by a group touting the good they do while undermining America's system of hunting and conservation. If you want more facts e-mail I will give you the numbers, not the propoganda.

Don't believe Utah's "best in the west hunting opportunity" for the rich and famous maybe for the general joe smoe not hardly. Utah has not grown big bulls from conservation and habitat it has grown great bulls because we kill less than 1200 per year and only allow approx. 1500 people to participate.

As far as wolves I am with Coyote-Hog wolves will come there is no way we can stop that short of high fencing our borders. So why not become proactive and design a hard line management system that is acceptable so we don't waste sportsmans dollars fighting court battles. If you don't believe it can happen you neeed to research the efforts of Idaho, Montana versus Wyoming and see who is making progress in Wolf Management. Oh and by the way I believe SFW-Wyomings effort for wolf management has made a big difference there, yeah right.


Travis Sparks
 
Travis & Chuck,
No one is talking about a fence. Utah can be managed for zero wolves. USFW will allow that to happen. We just need to make sure that our state wolf plan is clear, in that we do not want any wolves. This will allow the taking of wolves.
I do not agree with everything that sfw does, but at least they show up at every rac and do something. They also support their local chapters desires.
I was not asking anyone to join sfw. I just feel like everyone's voice should be heard on the wolf issue.
 
Can someone out there tell us why the FRAM BUREAU AND LIVESTOCK GUYS ON THE WORKING GROUP SUPPORTS WOLVES IN UTAH? I have the answer, but want to see if anyone can get them to make an offical statement.Someone get them to post a reason and I'll buy you a steak dinner.I'll phone in my credit card # to the steakhouse of your choice.NO BULL.
FOUNDER can back me up I'm good for it.

James Gilson

ANY STEAK HOUSE IN UTAH!!!!!
 
I'll try to help you

Todd R.Bingham
Vice Presideny-Public Policy

801-233-3001
cell 801-440-6510

[email protected]
Ask what their position will be in up coming RAC'S?
Ask why they supported the pro wolf groups?
I've yet to see their public statements on wolves in UTAH!!

ktc. Good project for you.We'll Know in a couple day's about the draw.good luck.

Gilson
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-13-05 AT 10:46AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-13-05 AT 10:45?AM (MST)

James, Ever get your lion yet????

Oh ya, because they want the money from livestock damage....
 
Mulepacker,

Utah didn't have a fence up when the last wolves came into the state did they? Yet, those wolves all went away. Yes, Utah may occasionally get a wolf or two which enter the state; however, if the Utah plan states that Utah won't manage for wolves they will either be killed or returned to their state of origin. No high fence is necessary.

As far as lost opportunity in Utah, I believe most sportsmen were in favor of the limits put in place for deer hunting. Don't you? Can you imagine how Utah would look today if everyone and their dog were still allowed to hunt deer?

If it isn't sportsmen's dollars used to fight to enable states to manage wolves under the system they desire, who do you think should foot the bill? Do you think anyone else will fight this fight for sportsmen? I doubt it, and I believe even you know that no one else will step to our aid. Are we destined to allow wolves to return to an altered ecosystem that no longer can sustain them and hunting both? You are absolutely nuts to think that Utah can maintain hunting and sustain wolves at the same time. All the habitat in the world won't help big game animals survive the pressures of wolves and hunting. Once wolves are here, who do you think will go? It will be hunters. Hunters who have paid for all wildlife management (including nongame) will be no more. Who will pay for wildlife management once you can no longer hunt? You may not like Don Peay or SFW, but at least they are doing something to stop outsiders from redefining the West. You may not like what Wyoming has chosen to do regarding wolves. It doesn't matter. I will continue to fight to get management of wolves returned to the state of Wyoming, under our terms not the USFWS. If you are stupid enough to believe them you will get what you deserve. SFW WY is proud to be among those (27 different groups) suing to protect Wyoming's right and ability to manage the wildlife within its borders. Ask the Sportsmen in Idaho or Montana if they are happy with the way their plans are being implemented and they will tell you they wish they would have done what Wyoming has done. Neither Idaho nor Montana can kill wolves to protect big game populations. Why do you think they want to place wolves within your state? What benefit will wolves bring to Utah? Open your eyes to their agenda and efforts to take away your ability to hunt.

Email me your facts. I would like to see what kind of propaganda you are circulating.

Bob Wharff
 
Bob, I would consider Travis far from dumb on matters concerning conservation, wildlife and hunting. I would offer that he has hit the nail right on the head.
 
I didn't call Tracis dumb, but i do disagree with the statements he made. You are entitled to your opinion as well as Travis, but wolves will definitely impact your ability to hunt. Conserving habitat is good, but if that is all you look at, you will awaken to find that you have lost the ability to hunt. It will take some time but ultimately hunting will disappear. Talk to Dr. Charles Gay, retired professor at USU. He predicted exactly what they are seeing around Yellowstone. There are far too many people that know the truth about wolves to set back and allow this to move forward; yet, where are they? Could it be that some believe this is not politically correct to say no to an agenda that spells the end of hunting? Travis can claim that Don Peay and SFW have drastically reduced hunting in Utah. Many would also say that has been good for wildlife as well. Furthermore, i would believe that even Travis can see that the quality today far surpasses what was available 15 years ago. I guarantee you that wolves will not increase the amount of wildlife available for hunting in Utah or anywhere else.

He may have hit the nail on the head in your mind, but I think he missed and hit his thumb.
 
"Ensure full market value and compensation to guides and outfitters, taxidermists, sporting goods stores and other businesses that will loose millions of dollars if game herds decline"

You had me till this popped up. I see more auction tags on the horizon.

Are we sportsmen/sportswomen supposed to profer up welfare payments to above listed "entreprenuers?" That would be what it would amount to. The landowner tag thing has gotten stupid enough w/o more "wildlife based welfare" out there. Let them shoot the damn wolves for a bounty and call it good.Or pay for it. You let wolves go and its a natural migration to where there is food.

Subsidy is welfare by any other name.

Ranchers and farmers are on the game board because it could and can be monetarily beneficial to them.

Does this get me the steak dinner? :D
 
Hey killembig (AKA Don Peay),
It was brought to the attention of the SFW upper people that some of the people there representing themselves were being dishonest. Nothing was done when Big Don Peay was told about it. Anything for the almighty $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$4



NBJB


mule.gif


NBJB
 
"You had me till this popped up. I see more auction tags on the horizon."

JimNv,

I think that you misunderstood. SFW's recommendation to the wolf management plan committee was that if wolves are allowed in utah that they better understand the economic impact of the certain decline in the herds that will result. Just a statement to get those involved with the plan to realize how much impact economically this might have. It would be interesting to know what the decline in revenue was for the Gardiner MT area, now that tags for the northern yellowstone herd have been reduced significantly.

Just my thoughts
-Terry
 
Bob,

You finally lured me into MM with your eloquence ;-)
BTW, it's Charles Kay, not Gay

He's also the same individual that was claiming the "overpopulation" of elk in the Park 15 years or so ago that was destroying the place.

Ben Lamb
 
I have always been against wolves being re-introduced and I still am, but my opinion is changing a bit lately.

I don't care about all the auction tags, and all that other stuff that ticks people off. The SFW can have at it and more power to them I say.

But I welcome wolves to Utah now. Come on in, I'll even get the door for them! The SFW has spent considerable time, energy and money trying to exterminate every lion in the state of Utah, or anywhere else for that matter. I don't expect any of you to understand because they aren't trying to eliminate deer hunting, they are trying to eliminate lion hunting. I like lion hunting and the SFW is the single biggest threat to my hobby at this point. The Anti's aren't even CLOSE to being as big a threat to my sport as the SFW.

Frankly, I will be glad when wolves get to Utah because that will give them a new predator to worry about and maybe they'll leave the few remaining lions in Utah alone.

I've had a gutful of a bunch of politicians blaming everything on lions. I anxiously await the arrival of wolves to Utah. Maybe when 400 class bulls are being drug down and killed by a pack of wolves on the Cache, they'll have something else to worry about besides lions.

Bring on the wolves, the sooner the better!! Then maybe all the pencil pushers will have something better to do than try and eliminate my sport. They can go after the overgrown coyotes.

I'll take my chances with the wolves, at least I know what I'm getting with them. Can't say the same for the politicians and big game managers. No tellin' with them. Bring on the wolves. We get enough of those suckers in this state and you guys will forget all about lions. Works for me.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-13-05 AT 03:45PM (MST)[p]Smokie

My bad for not clarifying my words?they are used interchangeably but are not contradictory by any means if you have an understanding of the Threatened and Endangured Speices Act.

Perhaps instead of using protection, I should have used management. And under management of the USFWS the feds are able to make management decisions under the T&E species act that allows for certain actions such as the removale of problem wolves.

Here are some deffinitions if you need help.

Main Entry: pro?tec?tion
2 a : one that protects b : supervision or support of one having less power <protection of endangered species>

Main Entry: man?age?ment
1. The act, manner, or practice of managing; handling, supervision, or control:

supervision
n : management by overseeing the performance or operation of a person(s), place, or thing.

450--

There is a big difference in saying our management is or should be a zero wolf policy and saying "draw a hard line and keep them out". As Mulepacker stated, there is no way we will ever keep wolves out of Utah. They will get here on their own, they already have. The question we must address is what to do when they get here not how we are going to keep them out.

Smokie is right on, there isn't really anywhere in UT where wolves could make it a go of it without causing serious problems to wildlife, livestock, and communities.

So-what is to be done... SFW would like to see in more appropriate words a no wolfe in utah management scenario. My guess is that just won't fly, I would be shocked if it ever did. Even if all the sportsmen, Farm Bureau, cattlemen?s and livestock associations agreed and were on the same page it just wouldn't fly. We will end up in court just as Wyoming is and will forever will be.

Perhaps a better situation would be to simply have a non tolerate management plan. That is to say we don't tolerate problem wolves?define problem wolves and then manage them. Believe me wolves are easy to kill; we did it before have the technology and can do it today with much more ease.

SFW having the attitude that it's our way or no way or we don't play and we cry:( just isn't going to cut it. That is all I am trying to say.

338Boy--
I will ask the UTFB any question you would like too but what myself and others would like to know is how much SFW/SFH pays you for putting on the baquet in Price--you still havn't answered that question from a previous post.


Chuck
 
Ben,

Welcome to MM.

You got it right. I mistyped his name.

The point you bring up is interesting about Dr. Kay's concerns regarding the impacts of too many elk within the Park. Initially, I thought he would have been an advocate of the wolf introduction. Hardly even close. From the very beginning of introduction efforts, Dr. Kay was against that action. Almost eveery thing he predicted has happened. He sent me several documents and comments he had submitted during the early 1990's.
 
Chuck

If thats your real name? I spend over 30 work days a year doing SFW business.Forest circus meetings, BLM, DWR ,county commission etc ...milage on top of that for southeast region.I've never been paid for a banquet.
I average over $300 dollars a day in my real job.I serve on the RAC and don't claim the milage that is available,(my company covers it)it would be about $50 dollars a RAC + $78 for each wildlife board meeting in SLC.Thats $1200 I turn down each year from DWR.I've been reimbursed an average of $3000 a year for only the last 4 or 5 years.I lose $9000 a year in lost time.I've been on the SFW board since the begining 93. Your $5000 dollar BS rumor is just that,a $5000 rumor. Keep the change.
NOW This post is about wolves and that's where it should stay. Let's see your farm bureau info you promised.

Gilson
 
Dawg,

Do you really want wolves? From the guys I have talked to, wolves can be pretty hard not only on the lions but also on hounds as well. I heard the guys chasing bears need to be careful as sometimes the hounds will actually bring in wolves while they are chasing a bear.

Be careful what you ask for as you just might get it.

I do believe your theory is partially true; though, wolves will definitely command the attention and dominate future debates.
 
Thanks for the welcome Bob, good crew you guys have here.

I've only heard Dr. Kay speak once, and admit I'm not intimately familiar with his predictions. As I understand it, some of his concerns regarding degredation of riparian habitat by elk have been addressed primarily though wolves moving elk herds off the streamsides and back to more "traditional" patterns of disbursement. Montana ran extended, high quota and late season hunts on the Northern herd up till last year, wasn't it? Seems that pinning herd reduction on one instance or factor (wether it be drought or wolves) is not going to help us to keep viable surpluses to ensure a hunting heratige.

Ben Lamb
 
You are right about no fences, however you missed a few key points as to why the wolves "went away" The Feds returned one to its home range and killed 2)of these wolves, not the state. It was due to one being caught in a trap and easy to relocate and the others killing livestock therefore requiring the demise of these wolves. I highly doubt each wolf that enters Utah will meet the same fate as these three. In fact the pair which has been on the Cache the past two winters have not been dealt with at all by the authorities be it Feds or State.
I am not about reintroduction of wolves or even wanting to see them in Utah, Wyoming, Yellowstone or anywhere else for that matter regardless of how they get there. I understand and agree with most of the economic and reduction of wildlife arguements. I have attended countless meetings addressing wolf issues in both Utah, Wyoming and Idaho made donations and have written letters to key players expressing my concerns. BUT!
I am not foolish enough to believe that emotional tirades such as walking out on a working group is going to win the battle. What it will cause is a fight we now have the anti-wolf (SFW) and the pro-wolf with their backs against the wall and wanting to fight. In the middle will be the other 80 percent of the population who will form opinions based on the appearance of these groups. Most of this 80 percent does not come from an agricultural background and statistics say all of them are nonhunters. They may like wolves and they may not. The fact is they are the majority and when decisions are made if the American justice system works it will satisfy the majority. So do I acomplish more walking a way from the table because I don't agree with a policy, do I draw a line in the sand so the war can begin or do I try and educate this 80 percent as to the consequences of an establishesd wolf population and the need for a very defined management policy with state jurisdiction in order to not end up in the shoes of my neighboring states. I believe I will catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Obviously this is my opinion and not that of Smokesticks or SFW's. It also appears to be missed by both pro and anti wolf factions in Wyoming as they still have no policy for management. As for Montana and Idaho they realized that wolves are already in their states and won't be eradicated therefore it was in their best interest to start working towards a hardline management plan. Are they there, I don't believe so but they have made progress. Wolves can be shot on sight for certain offenses. In the meantime Wyomings wolves are continuing to dine on prime beef and wildlife. Now tell me why this makes sense and who is winning the battle.
Wolves will come to Utah in force our boundaries on the North, South And East already have established packs, as the young are kicked out of pack they will come to Utah. Although SFW may believe they can prevent this they are wrong, so why don't we sit at the table and write a hardline management policy to deal with wolves as they appear, because SFW (Utah) proves once again they don't play well with others.


Last but not least again through many sportsman ran organizations and the surveys they conduct. Opportunity for the majority of the hunters is defined by days in the field and chance of harvesting an animal not by the B&C score. In Utah SFW has chosen to state we have more and better opportunity because our record book entries have gone up. (I believe if you check SFW Utah will represent at most 10 percent of the hunters.
Not because we have increased days a field or harvest percentage.) In fact just the oppposite is true since SFW met on the capital steps (I was there) hunter days a field have decreased for both deer and elk in Utah. resident prices are the highest of any western state, I believe we all know money effects our opportunities. Last but not least after many promises our herds are still way below management objectives and instead of admitting we didn't keep our promise. They choose to run from the table because they don't like playing with Lions, the Weather or the insurgents of Cache Valley not doing their part. It easier to place blame than admit fault. You see I have again been on bothsides of the fence as have you Bob and we know SFW will manipulate the numbers in order to make the shoe fit. Bob I respect you I know that you're expertise as a bioligist can help define middle ground and the facts. I have watched in meetings as you have defended the truth when it comes to wildlife management. I hope because of where your paycheck comes from you don't succomb to the politics of using wildlife as a tool for big business.
 
Gilson--

I see you never denied that you were paid just called BS. Just so you know, I attended a meeting in Logan with several others where Don Peay admitted to paying you and others 5k for hosting a banqets throughout Utah. I guess if you want to get technical and say that 'Don Peay consulting' not SFW/SFH paid you then that is fine but we all know where Don Peay consulting gets its monies from, thats right all those fund raisers in Utah. Soo now my question is who is telling the truth, you or the Don?

As far as the wolves and UTFB, this is what you can find on their web page as their official policy.

From UFB web page--
http://utfb.fb.org/News/Dec04Jan05/UFBFPolicies.htm

Transplants and Reintroductions - We oppose:

3) reintroduction, relocation, or transplant of predators in any areas that may adversely impact livestock or other private property;

4) wolves in Utah; PRETTY PLAIN ENGLISH HERE ISN'T IT? We oppose wolves in Utah--read it again and again.

317 PREDATOR CONTROL
We support:
5) removing wolves from the endangered species list and managing them under the supervision of the states where they exist;

In discussions with a friend at UTFB, I believe they are too looking at removing themselves from the wolf working group or staying on the group but not having their name on anything being supportive for wolves. As of my conversations today with them, I don't believe anything official was decided. How's that....

My second question--is this different than the BS rumor you were told?

Chuck
 
How about that Smokestick did that hit a finger too ??

This is the problem with not just SFW but all of these groups
you say tell us what you want then when an intelligent rebuttal
or idea is made it's well you can't see the big picture or we have got to grow a bigger pie so everyone can have a piece
well right now the only people getting a piece are the wealthy.

It's even more funny how when SFW can't run the show like they do the RAC Wildlife Board the take their ball and go home and pout. Now you have a taste of how the average sportsman is represented at the local level. After reading the Wolf Plan I had a good chuckle about the statement in there about letting " SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS" dictate policy.


Hey James on the conservation tag idea. I went to the MDF Banquet on Saturday not one of the tags cleared $10,000.00
but then again why should they when there are so many on the market.

In the next ten years who will take more from the average Utah sportsman??? Conservation groups or wolves??
 
Chuck
I've never recived 5k and that's that. Don may have genaralized his comments.So what ever he said he said.
The only way the current wolf plan could go to the public from the working group was if there were enough votes from the working group.That would create a consensus from the group.The reason the current plan is before the public is there were enough votes. Two people voted against it Don and Byron.Three votes were needed to force a change in the plan.The livestock groups held those votes?????
I would like to see their current stand on the proposaL going to the public and RAC'S.
#3 says they are only concerned if it adversely affects private property or livestock.
You provided us with their 2005 general policy and they say no wolves.Then they voted on the wolf working group to allow them under the current proposal going to the public.Which is it?
They already put their name on the proposal!!If they want it off then I'd expect to see them out in force at the rac's. Telling the public and the rac's they change their votes,and thus nullify the current plan - proposal.
So are they telling the truth in the working committee or on their web site.And if they have changed their mind that's ok.Just tell why they supported it while on the working group.I hope their at the rac's.My fight is not with livestock people, it's wolves.And we should be fighting together.As well as all sportsmen. THIS IS NOT A SFW ISSUE .It's the biggest issue facing sportsmen in the west.B!!CH all we want about SFW.Give them hell. But on this issue leave it at the door, and join the fight against a predator that can't be managed by the states.

Whoever asked about my lion hunt? I only hunted 3 days in late dec.Got snowed out two of them.Work and my guide needing back surgery have kept me from any hunting.I hope to get out again when things slow down.The golf course is open also,whats 60 bucks wasted on a lion tag?

GOOD LUCK TO ALL IN THE DRAW!!!!

338boy
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-13-05 AT 08:41PM (MST)[p]Figures someone from the SFW would make a long *** ,useless, self serving, bragging post about the all mighty dollar.

Give us back our tags you worthless *****.

You people are a bigger threat to hunting than PETA and the gun grabbers COMBINED.
 
What you guys need to push for is to allow any wolf found on public land to be shot on sight while wolves found on private ground and CMWU ground can't be harmed. Unfortunately the SFW guys would have to apply for public lands hunts in order to try and bag the big one. I'd be careful who you guys cozy up with. I can guarantee the ranchers and private landowners won't be returning any favors if the outcome to your battle is favorable. Outfitters and big money have corrupted hunting. Everytime I see an outfitter in this state crying about his business(lost income due to wolves), I just smirk and think you SOB's are getting yours. Excuse me while I digress. And as far as that goes, I'm not sure which is worse, wolves or a wolf dressed in sheep's clothes.
 
Chuck,
I agree that wolves are or have already been here and will keep coming by themselves. All that I meant by managing for zero wolves is essentially making it legal to see a wolf shoot a wolf.
Everyone has an opinion. I hope that all of you get a copy of the proposed wolf management plan and voice your opinions and make your voice count. Maybe, as hound dawg suggested, we need a bunch of wolves so that the cougars will be forgotten. I know that I still have an unfilled cougar tag in my wallet. Personally, I would rather hunt mule deer than about anything, but we all have different opinions and needs
Good luck to all in the draws, it looks as though peoples cards are being hit on another post.
-Terry
 
It was me James.... Did I win the steak dinner?????

It's kinda hard to find a good tom these days isn't it???
 
Mr. Peay,
Just got a chance to read todays paper. It is pretty sad when a hunting organization stoops to the levels of the non (against) hunting people. In case you aren't following, getting up from a meeting and walking out, then publicly stating that you will fill the rooms of the RAC's with people to sway the process in your favor. Still not following? What you are accomplishing here is getting a decision made that will be based on emotion instead of the facts, anti hunting 101, not caring what the facts are, whether they (the facts) are biological sound, and whether they are accecptable to the general public, but then the later has truly been a place where you and the others in your group have been failing. Well Don, heres a fact if Wyoming hadn't gotten up from the table and walked away we might be managing wolves now instead of letting them run wild with all the protection of a brand new car, full coverage insurance. Sometimes it is better to stick things out, get some of the things that you want, then work towards the things that you didn't get, at least you have passed the starting point and are working towards something. All you accomplish by walking out is getting to start over again...all over.
Don, it has been my experience, and it is by no means as vast as yours, but some people will never get it, having been in and out of SFW I have allways hoped that some day you would be one off the ones that would get it. So far though......
Tim Roberts
 
MulePacker,
All I can say is sweeeeeet. It's funny how there were no comebacks to your highly intelligent comments. I agree with you and great posts. It cracks me up everytime the word RAC is mentioned as a meeting for the public to get involved. The public has not been involved since that dreadful day in 1993 when SFW was born. The only comebacks I ever hear is look at us and what we have done. Elk are flourishing and on and on about the habitat improvements and we're the only ones fighting for you. Yes, we do have alot of trophy elk running around but who gets to hunt them? The rich and the lucky sucker that drew their only tag they'll ever get. The average guy has no say and had more hunting opportunities before 1993. Since 1993 the average guy has seen his opportunities decrease while the rich have seen a dramatic increase. All this said and done I won't be joining SFW anytime soon unless changes favoring the majority are made.
 
There's no reply, because DP has caution his Rat-Pack about making posts on this site. As far as I'm concerned, SFW has lost all credibility, and with that has lost allot of their faithful supporters....with the exception of Malone!!

By the way, Great post Mule Packer!
 
You need to be careful when you bad mouth the SFW, they will end the post, they have done it to me many times, if they start getting to many people thinking logically and showing the SFW isn't cut out to be so great then they end the post.
 
Don's a Joke and has no morals concerning ethics and the truth about hunting. I witnessed it first hand!!! at the SFW banquet. SFW is a bunch of lies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mule.gif


NBJB
 
I know I'll never support him or his organiztion, not to mention the outrageous salaries that he and the rest of his toaties are drawing! These guys need to be made accountable for every nickel that they have robbed from the working class to enhance their self promoting adgenda's...
 
so is the person who started this post, Utah450, is this Don Peay himself or is it just a supporter, because the bottom is signed Don.
 
>Finally, a lot of sportsmen in
>Wyoming, Idaho, Mt, initially thought
>a few wolves might be
>neat or OK.

Are you kidding me. Don't know which end of the pipe you were smoking out of when the wolf deal started rolling here in Wyoming, but there weren't any sportsman who thought it would be "neat."
-
As I re-read the initial post here, I get an impression the SFW is a strong proponent for outfitters and private landowners? Don't know about yer state, but in our state, we got a lot of pricks that fall into those categories. Sounds like the average Joe Hunter in Utah is damned if he does and damned if he don't. You either get stuck with wolves in yer hunting spots, or you get used as suckers to help the wealthy and outfitters fight their cause. If the SFW is primarily a mouthpiece for the outfitter industry, I'd tell'um to pound chit. Cause I guarantee you ain't hunting those CMWU's as a return favor if the sportsman prevail on this issue.
 

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