Land owners...

G

GFOUR

Guest
I was involved in a conversation with a large land owner here in the county I live in today, This gentleman was in the process of posting approx. 100 acres of his property where he keeps his cattle... which I understand. What I dont understand is that he owns around 800 acres, most of it weeds, salt grass and bullrushes, prime Pheasant ground, with alittle marsh mixed in. No crops other than a few cut alfalfa feilds, when I asked him if he was going to post the remainder he told me No...but he didnt have to because it is still trespassing even with out it being posted...and he would be calling the county sherriff on anyone he found to be on his property... so I asked if he would give me written permission to hunt Pheasants on the opener, I thought maybe he would since we are pretty good friends and see each other every day... But he told me that no one... not me or anyone else could hunt it. I was alittle taken back with his attitude... he gave me no reason. My Question is why can the Law give you trespass ticket when it is not posted, The proc says that it must be properly posted and the hunter must have written permision... WELL HOW THE HECK DOES THE COMMON HUNTER FIND OUT WHO OWNS A FRICKEN 50 ACRE WEED PATCH IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE... unless you happen to know the owner and even then the A-HOLES WONT GIVE PERMISSION!!! because the Hunter might trample the weeds or knock over that 75 year old barbed wire fence that some stupid cow has already torn all to hell... give me a break... but most of the time the reason they give is they own it and they can have you arrested for trespassing... IF THERE IS NOTHING THERE TO HURT WHATS THE PROBLEM?... I dont understand why they have to be such buttheads....LAND-OWNERS SUCK. thats it for now.... thanks for lettin' me vent, -G4
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-22-04 AT 09:27PM (MST)[p]I think the answers to the questions you ask are secretly hidden in your own writings ,are you from california?
~Jeff~
 
Just remember that a lot of hunters are A**holes too. He might have had problems in the past and now just says no. I know a lot of landowners that have let me fish and hunt their land and are real cool. Every situation has a story so you can't just lump it into LANDOWNERS vs HUNTERS. Just a thought...

CPSANDMAN
"The Buck stops here...I hope!"
 
Its their ground and they can do with it what they please. If you dont like it then you need to find somebody else to hunt on. It sounds to me like you were just looking for a handout to be able to hunt his place and I would be willing to bet that he gets that a hundred or so times a year. Why dont you start right after hunting season and let him know that you would be willing to work on his place on weekends over the course of the year if he would allow you exclusive hunting rights to that property instead of asking to hunt it for nothing.

Drummond
 
One other point, my grandgather owns a few ranches here in TX and the people that have no respect for property boundaries suck much worse than landowners. I guarantee that its these trespassing a-holes that have ruined it for you with this landowner. If people would ask and give thanks to these landowners you would not run into these problems near as much. The landowner is not the guy ruining opening day for you, its "hunters" that have disrespected what is his in the past.

Drum
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-23-04 AT 09:10AM (MST)[p]"I think the answers to the questions you ask are secretly hidden in your own writings ,are you from california?"
Taqukaq, you crack me up, though I think the message was lost on the intended!!!


In some states (Wyoming for sure) the law clearly defines that it is the hunter's responsibility to ascertain wether the land he is entering is private or not. Probably incidents in the past of people tearing down posted signs and getting away with tresspassing led to it. It is frustrating to see good land closed, but as stated above, it is thier land, they maintain it, they pay the taxes on it... None of us would care for people to just waltz into our living room, sit down, and flip the TV on, just because we have a nice recliner and satellite TV and they don't. Don't get angry at the guy, his reasons are as valid to him as yours are to you.

You can find what is owned by who, but you have to put some time into it. One way is to knock on doors and simply ask, "Do you know who owns the peice of property..." (give description). The other way is to go to the county office. They should have plat maps showing all parcels and who owns them. They keep up on that stuff...invested interest on getting those property taxes!! Oh, and if someone tells you so and so doesn't mind hunters on his place, DON'T take their word from it, gotta get it from the horses mouth. Good luck to you!
 
Drummond is right, usually a few ignoramuses ruin it for the rest of us. I remember as a kid we drove onto my Dad's property only to have four pheasant "hunters" with shotguns ask us what we are doing on thier property. "Didn't we see the posted signs at the gate". About the only thing my Dad could say at the moment was "if this is your property I wish you'd start paying the taxes!" The sherrif came out and straightened things out.

My uncle on the other hand refuses to post his property. He believes the pheasants belong to everyone, first come first serve.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-23-04 AT 10:01AM (MST)[p]It's your responsibility to know what is private and what is not, respect that! I remember as a kid opening day of dove season we were in the stackyard putting up hay and here they come up the road blasting the doves off the fence, well we got peppered, pissed the ol man off and he took care of business, but if the guys would of come and asked he would of let them hunt the whole ranch and would of told them where they could hunt and where not to. Well guess you know after that nobody was allowed to hunt, they ruined it for everybody. Another time they stole all the tools out of the baler, these were chicken hunters. Another time some rabbit hunters got stuck in the snow knocked down the fence and we spent 3 days rounding up about 30 head of horses.That is just a few of stories of many about disrepectiful sportsmen on or around private property. Too bad a few have to ruin it for all. Greg

one last thought as a land owner,I don't suck and I don't swallow either!
 
G4

Understand your feelings. BUT, get enough money to buy some land. Put up buildings, get livestock, do the fences. Fix them when they need it, fix the waterwell when it needs it. You can bet this all doesn't happen when its convenient. Then like the others say, pay the taxes.

You'll find out quickly how a few can ruin it for many. If you think you were aggravated think how badly the landowners can be irritated.

Since I don't have time to mess with fences and cattle on our land anymore due to family health issues and job, we lease the land for cattle. But that only comes close to simply paying the taxes.

Landowners go through way more than you think they do. And have to put up with plenty BS without having uninvited company. And they support all those who have kids in school that don't own land to boot!!(here in TX anyway)

As to why it doesn't have to be posted etc.. Thats a state law and can vary from state to state. Does it make sense? Doesn't really to me. BUT its state law and as such if you want it changed go to the state level and do the work to initiate the bill and have it passed. Its the same thing that the landowners have to do when we hit seemingly meaningless laws.

Jeff
 
BOO HOO... well its the last time I buck hay for that guy which Ive done in the past and never asked for anything in return... thats for sure. ~G4
 
GFOUR

I have to believe that there is more to this story than you are telling us. You've worked for this guy in the past and now there seems to be bad blood. And as far as tresspassing on unposted private property goes, how would you feel if you went out into your garage and found someone just "lookin around" at your stuff? What the heck, I'm sure your garage isnt posted is it? And you can go to the county seat and find out precisely who owns what 50 acre weed patch any weekday you wish, its all public record.

Mike
at235.gif
 
G4

Bet you are gonna vote Democrap too, after all those folks think everyone that has something owes everyone who doesnt.
 
i don't know about all states, but in Az., if it isn't legally posted, then it basically isn't private property. and it is quite a process to "legally" post property. have to have signs of a certain size with certain verbage so many feet apart and so far off the ground, etc. a tire with "no hunting" painted on it hanging on post by the gate, don't get it. just this past september some friends were elk hunting in Az. where they were hunting has a lot of private land. they had permission to hunt on some of it. it is all surrounded by public land. one of them shot an elk on public land that then jumped a fence onto private land that they didn't have permission to hunt, and died. when he tried to retrieve it the land owner came and ran him off and threatened him. they called the game and fish and a game warden cited the landowner for not having his property legally posted and for denying them the ability to retrieve a legally shot animal. he drove on the guys place and loaded the bull and gave it to the guy that shot it. he then told the landowner that if the elk was spoiled that he would be cited for wasting meat and that he had until sundown to "legally" post his property or remove the few signs he did have that were other than what the law required. what i don't understand about this is i've had the same damn game warden claim i was on private property, when i clearly wasn't, and there were absolutely no fences or signs of any kind. i proved to him with a map that he was fulla baloney, but then it seems he sorta unloaded on this landowner. guess it depends on the mood of the warden. it seems that in the case in wyoming, whether the guy was trespassing or not, there was clearly an assault that took place. i'd shot the sob if he started sluggin' me threw the window. sounds like there's more to the story.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-25-04 AT 12:32PM (MST)[p]If there's thing one I firmly believe it's that there is ALWAYS more to the story.

And I believe that there is probably more to the story that Gfour is telling as to why this landowner is sour on people having permission to hunt his property. As a landowner I could tell you some pretty interesting stories about hunters and trespassers.

Like the time we were setup in my field hunting geese. We had probably 50 or so decoys out and there were four of us laying under some camo when I notice this kid walking up the field carrying a shotgun. So we sit up and look at him coming and start talking. He can clearly see us but he keeps coming. When he gets about 50 yards away or so I see he's pretty young and looking a little excited. So I stand up, hollar at him and walk to meet him. Turns out his dad was sneaking down the ditch on the other side of the field and had sent the 12 year old kid in to spook the "geese" (our decoys) to him. When the dad sees the kid getting confronted he runs back to his car, jumps in and drives off leaving the kid there in the field with us! That guy got an ear full when he finally came back.

Or another time my dad and I were sneaking down our ditch toward some geese and run into another guy in our ditch who didn't have permission to hunt. Turns out his wife was going around and going to spook the geese. As we're sitting there talking to this guy asking him what he's doing a car comes hauling ass in to the field, three guys jump out and start blazing away at the geese as they fly off. The geese of course started flying when the car was still 150 yards away so they escaped unscathed.

Or how about just a couple of weeks ago this lady comes riding into my yard on a horse with two dogs running along. I walk out to meet her and explain she is on a private drive and that for one thing I don't want my dogs fighting with her dogs and for another I don't want her horse tracking the goatheads into my property from the highway frontage. She says OK and heads back down the driveway. But on her way out she comes across a farm road, clearly on my place and, instead of leaving, she takes that road out to the fields and starts riding around. So my wife jumps in the truck and follows her. When she catches up my wife says "We couldn't help but notice you got lost while leaving". The lady got pretty indignant and told my wife she wasn't lost, she was just riding around. So my wife again explains that she is on private property and then the lady really gets indignant and says she KNOWS that but was just riding around.

So as you can see owning property is not always a picnic. Seems like more and more people are getting the attitude that the "wealthy landowner" (ha!) owes them the right to public access. And it gets pretty old. I am to the point that I hate to see any game use my place or my neighbors because of the hassle. Seems like some hunters that get access to a neighboring piece of property they think that gives them access to all property around it. I have never posted my land before and I hate to do it now. Any time someone came and asked for permission to hunt I gave it to them unless I already had plans or had made promises to someone else. But I am afraid I am going to have to post my land and become hardnosed as the development surrounds me.

So GFour, do you think I could use your house for a party? Maybe a barbeque in the back yard? Just me and 30 or 40 other people? Your yard is nicer than mine.

Taqukaq, "I think the answers to the questions you ask are secretly hidden in your own writings ,are you from california?" Now that's funny! He missed it, but too funny.
 
Landowners posting THIER land is up to them BUT quite often
they get carried away and start poasting BLM land and I have seen this time and again KEEP OUT on public access.Alot of
land owners would think they own YOUR garage too!!!!!!!!
( NOTE: not all but a heck of alot of 'em )
 
Im sorry but the "I'M COMING OVER TO YOUR HOUSE TOO HAVE A PARTY", HOLDS NO WATER, The 50 acre weed patch 30 miles from nowhere has no buildings, no irrigation pipes, no farm equiptment.... NOTHING BUT WEEDS.... There sure isnt some fat @$$ rancher watchin' T.V. out there... The Rancher probably never goes within 15 miles of the place except during the hunting season, too exercise his manhood by running off some guy just participating in the sport he loves on the only NON posted piece of land he can find... FINE RUN ME OFF... BUT KEEP THE LAW OUT OF IT... just ask me to leave dont drag me to some Sherriff... if your too lazy to post the property you sould be too lazy call the cops. ~G4

p.s. The only people that hate Kali's more than Oregonians are UTAHN'S... and I got it I am only venting and was also lookin for some REAL answers to why everything has too be posted or not posted and the whole trespass issue....not "I'M COMING TOO HAVE A PARTY IN YOUR LIVINGROOM".
 
Land owners with cattle and sheep sure don't mind letting their animals cause havick to MY camp spot and MY creek banks in MY
National Forest-- yes I pay taxes--!
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-25-04 AT 05:14PM (MST)[p]Rimrock338,

You're right. Posting public land is wrong. I have been told I couldn't hunt public land adjacent to private land and it made me mad too.

GFour,

There is a right way and a wrong way to ask someone to leave your property. Being a jerk about isn't the right way. but again I believe there is more to this guy's beef than you may be aware of.

And as for partying in your living room, I said backyard. I don't see any difference. It's still your back yard and you have the right to keep people out of it. My property IS my backyard no matter how big it may seem to someone else. What if you owned a piece of property across town and people were using it for their own purposes (not hunting). Would you like it? Would you allow it? Say it's just a vacant lot that you never use or go to but you are holding on to. If some group was using it to party or whatever and littering and maybe dumping their garbage on it would you still think it was OK? Would you continue to allow everyone to use it and just hope someday you catch the people that are littering? I doubt it. You'd stop them all. And there might be innocent people who get bent out of shape because you stop everyone. That's life.

And as for the California quote, that's not the part I was after. I have lots of friends and family in California. I was after the part where Taqukaq pointed out that your answer is in your own writings. It's your attitude. The attitude that this landowner owes you something. The fact that he knows you and sees you every day only makes it tougher. I work with guys who have trespassed on my land to hunt. Just because we work together doesn't mean I owe them access. And it's not fair of them to assume it does.

Maybe you should be asking him what happened.
 
Here in AZ the real problem with private property isn't the measly 20 acres actually owned, it's the thousands of acres of public land that they control!
Most of the "sky islands" in southern AZ have private property surounding the bases of the mountains. The only access is through private property. Alot (not all) of these Ben Cartwright wannabe's stop access to literally thousands of acres of National forests because they own a few acres.
Don't believe me? Go to the www.azgfd.com and read the unit descriptions written by the local wildlife managers. Most of the southern units have 50-90% of the access restricted by private land owners.
Using the analogy of a trespasser "coming into your livingroom" is ridiculous.
I don't have any sypmothy for most of the landowners in Az.
 
coues,

There's a big difference between what you are describing and what GFour was originally posting about. He was talking about hunting ON a guy's private land. You are talking about land-locked public land. Big difference. Let's not mix the two up.

I agree with you that restricting public land by denying access is wrong, at least in theory. I know of instances where private land owners lock out access to public land so they can use the public land exclusively. That's wrong. I know of other cases where people allow access through their property and get dust all the time, the road gets beat to crap, people speeding through their place, leaving gates open, stopping to hunt on their property, shooting around their livestock, stealing stuff, shooting stuff, etc, etc.

It can't be all on the land owner to put up with maintaining a road and physical access to the public land. There needs to be another way, some middle ground. If there is historic access on a recognized road across private land either it needs to be left open (but maintained with public funds) or another route needs to be provided (again with public funds). That's how I feel.

Like I said above, there is always more to the story. And there are two sides to every story.
 
I would guess that the people who are railing against the landowners.....are NOT landowners.

So, go buy a piece of property (weed patch, whatever), maintain it, pay the taxes on it, and watch 20 or 30 of your "closest friends" go enjoy the rewards of ownership, i.e. hunting access without permission or even bothering to stop and say "thanks".

As a landowner, I find it disrespectful if people come on my (or anyone elses) property without permission. And the analogy of the party in your backyard is exactly correct. My farm is my backyard. It is also the largest asset my family owns and is their sole source of income, so I guess its alot more important than a backyard.

I understand mistakes are made and property boundaries are sometimes tough to know. I have alot of patience in those cases, and have in fact found myself inadvertantly trespassing (and have had my ass chewed for it). But I have also put up 10 No Trespassing signs around a 240 ac. field and have still had to run people off. "Oh isn't his Bob's place?" or "I thought that ditch was public land" (my personal favorite).

We have had hunters w/o permission around our barnyard. I have been told to leave my own property by people w/o permission to be there. I have had people sneak in and hunt geese that I was planning on hunting, meaning that I have to then go find some other place to hunt. I still ask our neighbors every year if I can hunt their place, even though I see out of towners stopping and hunting it and I know they don't have permission.

Don't get me wrong, if its public land and you post it you should be in trouble. That is wrong. I also believe that we as the public have the right to access our own public land. I don't believe every piece of property adjacent to public land owes us access, but it is wrong when there are large blocks of public land with NO access whatsoever. I believe the BLM, Forest Service and state game departments need to work together to make sure easements thru private ground to the public lands are in place.

Finally, when landowners read ranting posts saying "Landowners suck" and other such bits of intelligence, it really gives us a reason to open the door and let everyone on, doesn't it?
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-26-04 AT 01:05PM (MST)[p]NVBighorn, Point well taken. I was trying to state what we are dealing with here in Az, and how it effects our attitude towards landowners.
I certainly understand how a landowner must feel when they get trespassed on. It IS there property and they do pay the taxes on it and sometimes maintain it.
However, us "flatlanders" we need to be able to reconnect with nature too. We are the ones who run the economy so landowners can enjoy their way of life. We are the ones who handle property transactions, legal matters, political matters, environmental matters, wildlife matters, and on and on.
I find alot of landowners attitudes offensive. Too many times they label anyone that's not local as ignorant city folk. They act like it's THEIR land and we are trespassers, even on public land.
As a whole, the ranchers in AZ are not good stewards of the land. They over-graze to the point of sterilizing the land.
I once guided a cattle broker from Texas, and after spending nearly a week with him, he finally confessed to me that he had yet to see a cow in Arizona that that he'd even take the time to shoot! (His words not mine.)
I believe if Arizona landowners continue to treat the general population the way they do, and manage the land the way the do, their days are numbered.
It's criminal the way they prohibit Americans from using public land. There, I said it. I know alot of outdoorsman who feel the same way I do. Thanks for listening.
 
Regardless of the state law, common sense should tell you that if the land is not public,(forest service,blm,state, etc...)and it is not yours then it's someone elses. Duhh!!
It is the hunters responsibility to know this. Oh and the common hunter can go to the county courthouse and look at parcel maps to determine who owns that "fricken 50 acre weed patch in the middle of nowhere".
 
coues,

I assume you are referrring to public land grazers. You are correct, if those users are not willing to get on board and become good stewards of the land that entire way of life will dissappear. I'm not expressing an opinion either way on that topic. Too hot for me. :) There are many users who are good stewards but of course there are many old-schoolers still out there that sadly don't get it. I do not graze public land.

You said "We are the ones who run the economy so landowners can enjoy their way of life." I have to laugh at that one. Surely you don't think us "landowners" do nothing but sit around on our fat asses and own our land. Eating our home grown stuff. Hell I farm a couple hundred acres of land and I have a full time job. A white collar job at that! I even have a college degree! Other members of my family who co-own some of the land I farm sell real estate, tend bar, own businesses and even (God forbid) dabble in politics. Seems like every land owner I know is either a politician, real estate salesman, attorney, plumber or something. You about have to be to exist any more.
 
NVBighorn, I didn't mean to imply that land owners aren't part of the process. I can see where what I said sounds like that. I mean we city dwellers are involved too, even if we don't don't live in the country. I did bring my own feelings into this debate, even though it might not directly apply to the original post.
I obviously have very strong feelings regarding landowners in AZ. I hunt Mearns and Coues deer alot. I run into this issue all the time. It is very frustrating.
By and large, the land owners in central Az do a decent job, and we sportsman owe them appreciation for their work. I'm speaking mostly of southern Az.
Like i said, it's CRIMINAL how we are denied access to so much public land!
If you want to hunt Mearns, you need a specific elavation and a specific type of habitat. By the time you factor that in with the access that's available, you are limited to very a restricted area, even though Mearns's habitat is plentiful.
I didn't mean to highjack this thread. When the subject of landowners comes up, I get my hackles up quick.
 
No problem here. I didn't figure you meant it that way. Just had to get in my jab. :)

I understand your position completely and agree with you on access. Don't know anything at all about Mearns. Interesting. I'll have to do some homework.

As an aside, another public land user who in my opinion is encroaching and denying access almost to the point of being criminal is the US military. Nevada is quickly succumbing to possession by the Navy and Air Force. And who can argue with the need for military training grounds today? But they are using that as a handy excuse to expand their control beyind what I believe is really needed. Oh well, nuther subject altogether.
 
WOW--they came on my property and hunted the geese I was going to hunt..lol... WHO'S GEESE ARE THEY? They came on my property
and hunted "my" ELK. I've heard that one, too. I've seen land owners driving the perimeter of their property during Elk season to keep the herd off public land. Funny thing is all week that was just about the only place you could hear shooting! Go buy your own land?? Now days? Get real--most people with land have had it handed down from years gone by, when they could get it for next to nothing. What's the chance of anybody hunting Uncle Ted Turner's land? Oh, maybe he had a bad experience with some locals (Beer cans and all)...Maybe...but I doubt that's the reason. GREED --it's mine and to hell with the rest of ya'll.
 
sniff sniff... I smell a democrat!

The animals are everyones but the land is not! Just because the "man" is keeping you down from buying your own piece of property don't come whining to us... Go to school, get a good job buy your own land and quit complaining...

I just recently bought a peice of property that borders BLM and forest service... I have much easier access to the public land but not exclusive, if you have a pair of boots or a horse you're more than welcome to the 10 mile hike, just don't come trapsing though my front yard to get to it because you think I owe you access to it for some reason. What is that reason again, because its public land? If you want access to some of that land then buy it. You can buy an easement from me for a price... Its not that hard to understand how property ownership works, but I guess in your case it is!

Land is bought and sold every day... if you don't have the money is that our fault too, let me guess it was because of the tax breaks that GW gave to the rich? Lots of people take the initiative to make something out of thier lives and get good paying jobs... This is America anything is possible if you want it bad enough.
 
Hey Rimrock,
So, if I see a rabbit in your backyard I guess I'll march right in there and shoot it if season is open, right? It's not YOUR rabbit is it?

When the geese are on MY field eating MY crops, they are MY geese. When they are on YOUR field eating YOUR crops, you do whatever you want.

There is nothing like going out to your farm and seeing a bunch of people you don't know out in the middle of your field.

WILL WHOEVER OWNS THE DAMN GEESE PLEASE STAND UP!!!

Democrat....no smells more like a socialist to me.
 
idhunters

About that damn rabbit--PLEASE drop by the front door and let me know who you are and then go out and muck out the darn thing. I am tired of it eating all my flowers! Stop back by the front gate when you're done and if you have time we can swig down a beverage, shoot the breeze a bit, and heck, who knows, maybe we could become pals!

I have a fault, I think some people are good and trust them until they prove otherwise).

Why does it always come down to political preference?

I am looking into some property in Idaho and the owner tells me he gets x amount of money from the government if he doesn't farm it. The amount might he gets from the government might even be enough to make his payments.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-26-04 AT 07:24PM (MST)[p]FYI,

The Murphy ranch in the article above a recieved a total of $422,826 in USDA Subsidies from 1995-2002.

http://www.ewg.org/farm/persondetail.php?custnumber=009384720

I believe the Wyoming Access Yes program has been successfull although the walk in only areas are a bit unrealistic for hunters and landowners benefit more then the public. It's better then nothing.

I understand the landowners position, I was ranch raised and am a landowner.

I did have a bad experience with a land owner this year though, we where skinning a deer in front of our camper on BLM land. A rancher drove up, says "Did you get a buck?" I said "yep" He said "you got a landowner coupon". I said "He was killed on BLM land" Now if I would of givin him my landowner coupon I would be saying I got it on private land without permission. I would of given it to him, if he would of said that's ok we graze that land or whatever. I just didn't incriminate myself. In stead he fired up his pick up and speed off yelling "Who do you think pays for BLM land, keep your god damn landowner coupon!!". That really put a bad taste in my mouth.

Wyomingben
 
FYI,

The Murphy ranch in the article above a recieved a total of $422,826 in USDA Subsidies from 1995-2002.

http://www.ewg.org/farm/persondetail.php?custnumber=009384720

I believe the Wyoming Access Yes program has been successfull although the walk in only areas are a bit unrealistic for hunters and landowners benefit more then the public. It's better then nothing.

I understand the landowners position, I was ranch raised and am a landowner.

I did have a bad experience with a land owner this year though, we where skinning a deer in front of our camper on BLM land. A rancher drove up, says "Did you get a buck?" I said "yep" He said "you got a landowner coupon". I said "He was killed on BLM land" Now if I would of givin him my landowner coupon I would be saying I got it on private land without permission. I would of given it to him, if he would of said that's ok we graze that land or whatever. I just didn't incriminate myself. In stead he fired up his pick up and speed off yelling "Who do you think pays for BLM land, keep your god damn landowner coupon!!". That really put a bad taste in my mouth.

Wyomingben
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-26-04 AT 07:42PM (MST)[p]Hell, I dont even hunt my own property, why should I let some guy that I dont know hunt it? As was said before, most of these dudes are just out looking for a handout! They want to find some land owner to give them exclusive hunting rights, usually at little or no cost. Most guys dont realize that if you wait to get permission a few weeks before season, that their odds are slim and none. Offer to do chores, fix fences, put up hay, vaccinate cattle, clear brush, cut wood, whatever. Just do it a year a head of time and stick to it and not only just before season, do it year round. I do have exclusive hunting rights on a local ranch because the landowner approached me with the idea. I buy my hay from him every year and volunteered to help him buck and put away his hay every summer. He is in his 70s and cant get any of his cull kids to help. I usually put up a couple thousand bales for him. I usually hunt it for coyotes and sometimes elk. I also help him with his garden when he needs it. You might be supprised to see what a little sweat and hard work can get you but most guys today are not willing to put in the effort.
As for the pu$$ies that b!tch about "there is no land for me to hunt" or "the rich are gobbling up the land and keeping us off of it" or even those that gripe about not being to access BLM, Federal or state property through private land, tough sh!t! Get a job where you can afford to buy your own and stop being jealous of other that have more than you!!!! My hunting buddy in eastern WA owns a nice chunk of property that backs up to the Collville National Forrest. The forrest access road runs along his property line. A few years back it was washed out by a flood. He had to gate off his property to keep idiots during hunting season from driving through his yard to get around the washout. The Forrest Service tried to bully him into giving an easement through his property. The road would have gone within 15 feet of his front porch. Needless to say, he told them to f-off and that chunk of forrest was inaccessible for several years, until they fixed it. Do you think that most folks would allow an access road to go through their yard? Not a chance in hell! You could still hike around the washout but everyone was too lazy do do so.
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Eric
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-26-04 AT 08:29PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-26-04 AT 08:27?PM (MST)

Polarbear. Come out to AZ and try and buy a decent piece of property. I earn well into 6 digits not including my wife's income and I can't do it.
The vast majority of private land is 1- inhereted or 2- bought up by Californians who sold their property for a ridiculous amount of money and move out here to play Ben Cartwright.
I stand by my point that it is CRIMINAL for private landowners to prohibit access to public land. Your buddy was wrong, and represents the typical attitude of many property owners in southern AZ. I'm not saying put an easement past his front door, but I'd sure be for running one adjacent to his property line if it's the only way in.
I'd even go so far as to say that if it is absolutely neccesary to provide access to the general public, the forest service should buy an easement under the eminant domain law.
It's not a matter of being lazy. I'm sure the vast majority of us work as hard as you. It's a matter of fair access to public property, at least here in AZ.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-26-04 AT 09:12PM (MST)[p]First off, my buddy was not wrong. His property is on an extreme hillside. The only flat piece that the road could go through ran through his front yard, barn or corrals. The rest is a straight up or down cliff. Second, landowners should not have any obligation to give up an easement through any part of their property whether to access public land or land-locked private land. If you want to hunt public land, find a legal way into it even if it involves getting off of your a$$ and hiking or riding in on horseback. What pisses me off is the folks that think that they are entitled to tell me or anyone what we should do with our land and calling it criminal is asinine. There is a ton of good National Forrest Land in this state that is "landlocked" by tribal land. Do you think that they would give us access to hunt? No! Third, so you cant find land exactly where you want, tough sh!t, look elsewhere! I am sure that in the whole state of AZ that you can find a godd chunk of land that you can afford. The Kahlifornians and Nevadans are buying up a lot of land up here too. I dont like it either, but it is there right just as it is your right to buy property wherever you want. (To a certain extent) You cant tell me that if you had the chance and was able to buy up a huuuuuge chunk of land that you wouldnt. And if you did that you would allow everyone and their brother to drive through it. If you want something bad enough you can usually get it through hard work but blamiming everyone else for your misfortune gets you nothing but more of the same.
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Eric
 
The problem with most of these debates is there is no clear black and white. Like I said when this thread started YOU CANNOT JUST LUMP THIS INTO LANDOWNER VS HUNTER!!!

EXAMPLES:

1. Some peolple worked their #$%%$% off to get to be landowners. Don't bring em down just because you can't buy a piece now. What do you want them to do? Give you a piece or share the hunting rights? Yea...that's fair...if your Karl Marx.

2. Some people got their land because someone died or other means. Got lucky you might say. Again...you think you deserve it just as much as they do?...if your Karl Marx.

3. Some landowners are VERY nice and cooperative. According to some people on here...they are all A**holes and deserve to be eaten by coyotes! Maybe you're the A**hole...not saying...just asking everyone to look in the mirror.

4. Some landowners are just plain jerks!

5. Some hunters expect access to everything.

6. Some hunters are jerks and have no respect for others property.

7. Some hunters are very nice, respectful and just want help however they can and really deserve access. To bad the others ruin it (both landowners and hunters that are jerks).

8. Blablablabla....get my point? How can we say one is bad and one is good....each situation is different.

Side note: One thing that is black and white...whether I, you, republican, democrat, or anyone else likes it...the landowner has the right to his property, no one else, PERIOD. This is America. You like socialism start looking for a new country and move.


CPSANDMAN
"The Buck stops here...I hope!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-27-04 AT 00:49AM (MST)[p]If you read what I said, I don't believe anyone should be told what to do with their land, but by the same token, they shouldn't be able to keep me off public land. Your buddy's attitude is just like the people who move next to an airport, and then complain about the noise!
I never "blamed" anyone for my personal situation. I fully expect to own property someday, and I'll get it by working for it. If I'm confronted with a situation like your friend, I'll welcome them on to my place if they ask permission.
As far as your "lazy ass" remark, I have walked in through personal property many times to get to public land. Why would you assume I'm too lazy to do that when you don't even know me? In fact, I'll be doing it again this Dec on my wifes late Coues deer hunt in the Whetstones. She just finished a 60 mile walk in 3 days for breast cancer.You're welcome to come with us if you can keep up.
 
RE: Were beating a dead horse here

LAST EDITED ON Oct-27-04 AT 06:05AM (MST)[p]Once again.........................
My buddy has never complained about folks using the adjacent Forrest Service road. There is a difference between that and punching a road through your property. He is at no obligation, nor should he be, to ruin his land just so that the USFS can take their sweet time repairing their own road.

You certainly did blame landowners for your inability to find or access hunting ground. Your own words. "The vast majority of private land is 1- inhereted or 2- bought up by Californians who sold their property for a ridiculous amount of money and move out here to play Ben Cartwright". It sounds like a lot of blame and jealousy to me.

I read through my posts several times and have yet to find where I personally called you a "lazy a$$". (must have hit pretty close to home to bring that reaction out) My references to "lazy" folks is a generalization intended to make a point.

My mother in-law has ovarian cancer, my father in-law has prostate cancer, my brother in-laws mom has breast cancer and a close friend of mine has lung cancer. I too spend a lot of time on "awareness" walks and runs. You said "SHE just finished a 60 mile walk in 3 days for breast cancer", what about yourself? And yes, I can more than keep up with you.




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Eric
 
Hey Polarbear. First of all, I appologize for saying your buddy was wrong. I went back and reread your first post and realize I interpreted his situation incorrectly. You said there is a road adjacent to his property. I would have done exactly what he did. My bad.
I kind of highjacked this thread. Our situation here is not the same as your friends. It's hard to decribe what's happening here unless you see it for yourself. Access is very limited into these "sky islands" because of natural topography. Only a limited amount of drainages allow for a road. We have people who only owns a few acres on these roads limiting access to literally thousands of square miles of national forests. It's not like the forest service can move over a half mile and put another road in. It's often 5 miles before it is even feasable to cut another road. Every drainage that can accomodate a road usually has one in it already.
Take the Whetstones for example. There are only a handful of access roads into the entire range, and this year 3 roads on the north end are closed. That literally closes the top third of the range (national forest) off to the public. Just because only 3 roads are closed. The Game & Fish are always trying to maintain relationships with a few landowners all over southern AZ to keep public land available to the public. There are some ranges that are virtually landlocked by landowners that the general public can't get to! Yes, you can walk in but you're going to be walking across 3-7 miles of NOTHING before you even begin to climb. I usually don't mind doing it on a big game hunt because it leaves the crowds behind, but it's not reasonable for Mearns hunting with a dog.It's not like your friends situation, where there was a reasonable option to go around.
I've had 2 run-ins with property owners down there. It's kind of a long story, but I'll get off my soapbox after this.
The first one was on a Juniors Javelina hunt. I had my 15 years old daughter and my 67 year old dad with me. We drove 3 hours from Phoenix to be there for opening morning. When we pulled off the highway at our exit we stopped for a potty break. It was still dark, and I decided to use the time to load her muzzleloader. I guy pulls up and aggresively confronts us about tresspassing. I don't back down, because we're on a PUBLIC road. He gets nasty, but realizes his bluff won't work on me and speeds off. It left a bad impression on my daughter. Here's the kicker, The road goes in only 4 or 5 miles before it ends at a National Forest sign! Nowhere do you ever cross any private property, yet this guy was willing to intimidate my 15 year old daughter because we were on "his" property!
The second situation was in the Chiricahua's. My dad and I were driving in on a very rutted out 2 track, again a public road. After a few miles we come up on an empty trailer sitting right in the middle of the road. I don't give it much thought, except I had to drive up off the road through the brush to get around it. A short time later I see a truck headed towards me fast. I again pull up into the brush to keep this guy from running us over. There are 2 guys in there 20's. The first words out of his mouth are "do you have my chainsaw!" It caught me off gaurd and told him I didn't. I tried to make small talk and ask him if he'd seen any deer. His response was "jeez, there everywhere, are you sure you don't have my chainsaw?" Again I tell him I never saw it. This goes on until I flat out tell him, "look, pal, I DON'T HAVE YOUR SAW!!!He blurted out, "no wonder you city people can't find any deer, you can't even see a chainsaw!" and sped off.
I've had many more GOOD encounters with landowners than bad, but they've never been in southern Az.
I totally agree with you that a person can do what they want with there property. However, I don't believe they have a right to keep Americans off of public land if they're isn't reasonable access around them. I guess that's where you and I differ. I wonder you'd feel the same way if you were in my shoes.
Again, my appology for misreading your post. Good Hunting, Gary
 
Rimrock,
I think I would enjoy swigging down a cold one or two with ya, maybe even some good old cheap canadian whiskey!!

Your post above hits the nail on the head: "PLEASE drop by the front door and let me know who you are.....Stop back by the front gate when you are done"

That is exactly my point, stop by and let me know who you are (i.e. ASK) and stop back when you are done. I don't have any problem with the people who do that.

In all the examples in my post, NONE of the people made any effort whatsoever to ask. And I am sure if I went in and "mucked" that pesky rabbit without letting you know who I am or what I was doing would make you a little P.O.'d. Nothing like being out feeding cows and hearing a barrage of gunfire out in your field with no idea who was out there or what they were shooting at.

I hope you can put together your real estate purchase here in Idaho. I have been in the agricultural lending field for 14 years, all in Eastern/Southern Idaho. I have lived here my whole life. If I can help you in any way, please let me know.

Lance (IDHunters)
 
I would bet most land owners are pretty decent people. If they are hostile and unfriendly, it is probably because of dealing with poachers or hunters who were granted permission to hunt their property but were disrespectful of their land in some way.

Then again, some folks buy land because they have lots of money and they don't want to share but to exclude others. We live in a capitalist economy and the current property laws say this is their right. Live with it.

I am NOT a land owner (excluding my suburban house and small patch of lawn) and wish I had better hunting land access. My recourse is to drive long distances to hunt public land -- maybe 800 miles to near Durango to hunt Elk, for example. I can live with this. It is better than trying to hunt in Europe, I imagine. Imagine trying to hunt if you are a run of the mill Joe living in Paris or Berlin? We have it damn good as far as hunting goes in the USA.
 
This is a great thread. I would like to add another opinion and question if I might. To begin with, I summarize this thread as 1) Non-Landowners who would like access to public land through private land. 2) Landowners who think they can do with their land what they want. and 3) Others
1. I think it would be generous but not obligatory if Land-owners adjacent to large public tracts provided access. I think it is wrong to own land next to large tracts of forest land and use it as you and your friends private (public land) hunting resort because to get to or out of the public land you need 10 mile hike, repel gear, etc. (Did I make this clear?) I know of several places where this happens (in Utah).
2. Landowners who think they can do what they want with their land (I personally agree with this concept) also do other things other than hunt such as develop the land. And, I know that development makes a lot of people mad but they do own that land. What do you guys think of that?

3DM

Still, nothing fun to read at the bottom.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-04 AT 07:45PM (MST)[p] 3DM
Good summarization! BUT what I got out of it was a little more deep and personal, WHICH WAS FINE. Having responses from some very highly educated, high-IQ individuals brought me to my senses. I'm a whiner,lazy and a democrat not worthy of being an American.

So, like Kerry, I had to concede, go to school and get a real job. Yes, I'll be the first to admit that I blew that one. After 30 years in the aerospace industry, I'm just too old and tired to go back to school for a real job.

Yes, they know me and my kind--just a lowly vagrant living under the viadock. My camp fire is a flame in a 55-gallon drum, my sleeping bag is rolled up newspaper and dinner is served out back of the restaurant in the big roll-a-round dumpster. Yes, they know me. So now I will roll up out of the wind and dream of the places that they hunt and scorn myself for being so foolish and not getting a real job. NO, I don't want a handout or something for nothing. I will continue to stand on the corner holding my cardboard sign in my rag-wrapped hands that states,
"WILL HUNT FOR FOOD". No soup kitchen or homeless shelter for this guy -- I am a Republican and most of all an American.

P.S. Anyone got any spare 30-06 shells? Oh, and thanks to whoever left the old Carhart coveralls in the can last night (even though they are too big and the ass is ripped out of them.)
 
Well Rimrock.
Ya know we spent many a fall hunting the big buck. And I know how tough it is for you now. It is just not like it use to be!! The vidoc and all. Just so long as I don't catch u trying to cook that rat u found on my barrel. It would be like trespassing. Or trying to throw your coffee pot on my camp fire. Not right man. But I reckon we could share a peice of land I spy up near the Montana border. I think the locals call it Yellowstone. I don't suppose any one would care if we Developed it to a fine hunting camp. Heck we could put up our very own No trespasing signs. That is if we could afford em!! We could kill all them damn Wolfs also. Ya know them damn vermon sure are taking the toll on the elk herds. Would they be like our own elk?? Ya think??
 
Idhunter I am Standing up here i will dubs em my geese send em to Utah for a round of shot. Hey i took out that pesky rabitt for rimrock so u don't have to worry about it any more. Oh and i will help run that pesky Spotted Owl out of Idaho if u like Idhunter.
Rut
Rut
 

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