Land Sale?

I signed it.

I also sent the following email to all my State and Federal Congressmen and Governor Herbert...

-------------
DO NOT VOTE FOR TAKEOVER OF PUBLIC LANDS!

In fact, vote against it.

As a hunter and outdoorsman, I am strongly stating that you have no right to take our public land to fund a government that can no longer pay for itself. If Congress can dig itself this hole, they better dig themselves out of it.

I have recently renewed my membership in Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation and joined Backcountry Hunters & Anglers as they are working for Sportsmen to protect our public lands from people of the Land Grab mindset. Eastman's Hunting Journal recently ran an Op-Ed criticizing the Land Grab fraud as well.

Hunters and fishermen everywhere are combining forces and I don't believe any elected official in Utah wants to stand in front of that force.

I have voted Republican my whole life (except when I voted Libertarian because I thought John McCain was too liberal), but I will work with, donate to, and vote for a Democrat rather than see this selfish short-sighted agenda passed.

There is absolutely no way the State of Utah can take over Federal land and maintain it without selling it or prostituting it out for grazing, mining, drilling, or logging (what some call "management"). All of these options are bad for Outdoorsmen, as well as families who enjoy recreating in our Open Spaces.

President Theodore Roosevelt said, "There can be nothing in the world more beautiful than the Yosemite, the groves of the giant sequoias and redwoods, the Canyon of the Colorado, the Canyon of the Yellowstone, the Three Tetons; and our people should see to it that they are preserved for their children and their children's children forever, with their majestic beauty all unmarred."
----------------

I'll post any responses that I receive.

Grizzly
 
Grizzly,

I understand your position but that was quite possibly the worst letter you could have sent to your congressman. There were no facts and a bunch of emotion and childish opinion. I am sure RMEF is happy you stuck their name to it.
 
I signed and I e-mail all my legislative folks about this land grab. Local ones too.
They know that most folks were I am are oppossed to it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-15 AT 08:01AM (MST)[p]Politicians don't care about facts or numbers, they only care about votes and money.
If you going to comment to a government agency, numbers and details matter.

Get mad at them, and tell them, they get it.
 
Piper, I agree. What elected officials need to realize is it isn't only a bunch of government-loving Democrats that reject this idea, but their very constituents, their base voter that is ready to coalesce and organize to fight them.

This fight isn't going to be won with projections, because somebody's guess is as good as the other guy. People will just choose to believe what they want and ignore the rest. One thing counts to elected officials, their jobs.

Grizzly
 
Here is the first response...

-------

I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

There is way more to this than sports. But transferring the holding to the state would actually better preserve outdoor recreation and sports.
The Feds only hold the land in trust. They do NOT own it. Funny how hunting and fishing in the states east of the Rockies has not suffered. Western states seem to suffer at the hands of tremendous federal wildlife regulations that Eastern states are not subjected to.

The highest percentage of federal control is only about 10%, with NY being only 3/10 of 1%. But Utah is 68% and Nevada is 93%. There is no state west of the Rockies that is lower than 50%.

The Feds have failed to maintain the infrastructure including roads, bridges, paths and trails. They have failed us on the fight against Quagga and Tiger Mussels and against the invasive weed called Phragmites. Just look at the campgrounds in our national forests. They are in horrible condition.

Our effort does not affect National Parks or Monuments. They will be left intact under federal control even though they are all in disrepair. The buildings, roads and other infrastructure is in dire need of repair and upgrades. We, Utah, had to pony up to keep them open during sequestration. We have yet to be reimbursed the $3million we spent.

All the Feds are doing is shutting down access to hikers, hunters, fishermen and recreationists. That is in addition to shutting down of any kind of access to resources, which if we could access would provide more funding for education than we could imagine. There is even a possibility that we could lower state income taxes without raising other types.

I am an outdoorsman as well. I've grown up hunting, fishing, hiking and camping. And because I see the long range consequences of what has been taking place and what now needs to be done, I WILL be supporting all efforts to take back our public lands. To continue allowing such federal irresponsibility is to our long term detriment. We cannot allow those in DC to decide our destiny when they have never been out here.

Thanks
Curt Oda
House District 14

--------

Grizzly
 
Grizzly,

Please ignore tri-state, he's so far removed from the issue he doesn't get it.

The people that live in the West have a lot more access to their state and national Legislative body.

As such, letters like yours have an impact on them.

Legislators work for their Constituents, we have the ability to fire them come election time. Just as an employee needs to be accountable to their boss, so it goes with our elected officials.

Hold them accountable for this half-baked idea of transferring federal lands. If they choose to ignore your emails and phone calls, you can always hold them accountable at the ballot box.

For those that don't believe that Sportsmen can swing an election...ask Montana's Denny Rehberg how ignoring Sportsmen and Public Lands worked out for him.
 
Ha. A criticism from Tristate on an issue like this is a ringing endorsement from most logical, level-headed sportsmen. Great letter Grizzly.

-Hawkeye-
 
My response...

------
Mr. Oda,

Thank you for your response. However your argument that hunting east of the Rockies has not suffered was not your best point since almost all hunting back east is done on private property with paid leases by the hunters. That is unacceptable to most of us who grew up with public land and want our kids to be able to hunt on it as well.

Do you truly believe the State of Utah could have stopped Quagga Mussels? Then why didn't you? DWR tried.

We can't hunt in National Parks (and the desert areas don't offer much anyway), so this is no solace. But I find it interesting that you want full control of all other lands but then want the Feds to reimburse you the 3 Million it took just to run 5 National Parks for a matter of days. And we should feel comfortable those campgrounds would be in better shape?

I recommend you spend some time with hunters around the west (sites such as Rokslide.com, MonsterMuleys.com, HuntTalk.com, Eastmans.com) and you will see hunters organizing against this. I fear you may be under they impression that Sportsman for Fish & Wildlife are representative of local outdoorsman, with a little grassroots research you will find much disdain for their organization and would be wise to seek counsel elsewhere.

Thanks again for the discussion. I always appreciate honest dialogue.

------
Grizzly
 
This issue is probably the most important issues for Sportsmen in more than a decade. Probably more important than wolves being introduced to Utah. That's my take on it anyway. One thing we know is when the State of Utah has land they sell it to the private sector. Being one person against this issue is good, but collectively we can do better, if we can join strong organizations that support opposition to a take over. SFW is probably getting to be one of the loudest voice to the politicians. Where do they stand? The chapter in St. George supports the take over. The others in the organization need to stand up and be heard. The silence is deafening.

I have been a Republican for a very long time, but this issue has me looking at each candidate with very close scrutiny, that is, if you can get them to give you a straight answer. I would vote for Hillary if she was for keeping federal lands open to multiple use and the Republican candidate was for give them back to the states. Break ranks - you bet I would.
 
The issue really is that important, and I agree, the biggest threat to hunting, hiking, camping, fishing that any of us will likely see in our life-times.

Like others have stated, I will not support any politician that is in favor of the transfer of public lands. I will also do all I can to elect those that side with Sportsmen on this issue...and I don't care what party they belong to.
 
Absolutely agree.

If hunting as we know it is gone in a generation, it won't be the ESA, it won't be wolves, it won't be Federal regulation, it will be because our own legislatures (from the party most of us elected) passed this Land Grab.

But don't tell us on MM. Tell your elected officials, and tell your hunting buddies to do the same. That is the only way we stop this.

Grizzly
 
I still don't know what would be best. The Federal government is broke and climbing deeper into a hole. What happens if the government debt reaches 30 trillion? What percentage of our GDP goes to paying interest on the debt? How many people are working and paying taxes now and future trends?

The Utah State representatives and Governors manage money much better, we have a surplus. We has a brighter future, good job outlooks and an ability to manage money and resources in the future better IMO. I would not consider myself an expert.
The Government programs SS. medicare, Obama Care, have been and are poorly managed and ran. The Government stole our SS money. Our hard earned money we put into a fund.

Representative Oda, a sportsman, seemed to be well informed.

BOTTOM LINE we need to protect our land for public use and manage our lands and be good stewards of the land for our future and kids future.
 
I am very worried about this issue simply because SFW supports it. On the other hand, I have great respect for Curt Oda, and find him to be a reliable ally of sportsmen and gun owners in Utah. I think his e-mail is well reasoned, and pretty accurate. I am ready to support this transfer to state ownership. I don't see any reason to believe the state won't be a better steward and manager of these lands. If they aren't, I am willing to hold them accountable. I know I will never be able to hold the feds accountable for any of their actions. I am willing to support the devil I know in Utah, rather than the devil in DC.
Bill
 
Hey Grizz, do you happen to have a list of all those email addresses..??

Thanks brotha

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
Bill-

I respect your opinion, and I am curious as to what your personal experience has been with Curt Oda? I don't know him but I do know that he supported HB 141. I am beginning to see a pattern between folks who voted to restrict stream access and those who are now clamoring for control of our public lands. Despite their assurances that sportsmen have nothing to worry about, their track record says otherwise.

-Hawkeye-
 
When you email the Utah delegation, you might want to ask them why the State of Utah has sold 3.8 million acres of State lands (roughly half of what the State was granted at Statehood).

Ask them if they're aware of that fact that 30% of the current private lands in the State of Utah were once State property.

If I were a Utah Resident, I would be asking them how much camping, hunting, fishing, atving, etc. that I can do on the 3.8 million acres that Utah has peddled off.

I would also ask them how much management control of wildlife, recreation, hunting, fishing, camping, etc. that I have on those lands as well.

Yeah, I would definitely trust the current crop of Utah Legislators to do whats right be Sportsmen...their track record is pretty impressive.
 
Bill,

I agree with the part I think we have a better chance of protecting our lands through the State and not through the Federal government. If the State tried to sell off prime hunting lands there would be a battle from sportsmen. We could rally at the State level.

I'm not sure on what industries make Utah the most money.

Tourism, Ski industry, etc. I pretty sure hunting, fishing, camping are within the top five. Our Governor and State representatives know this. They will protect their tax base which pays the bills IMO.
 
This is obviously a very sensitive issue, but let's make sure we're dealing with facts and not just hyperbole. At the very least, take the time to read the other post on this subject. Much of it was covered there.

http://www.monstermuleys.info/cgi-b...z=show_thread&om=22593&forum=DCForumID5&omm=0

Believe it or not this is a very complicated issue, and people who get all worked up and hop on one side of the issue or the other without doing any research make themselves look much sillier than anybody they might be criticizing.
 
Here is 1 example from another forum of what happens.

Originally Posted by Musket Man
""I have yet to see any proof that any state intends to sell off the public land if they were to take over management. From what I have seen the states intend to keep it public like it is and they want to be able to manage it better.""


"If the states can afford to keep it. In Wisconsin almost 15 years ago now they sold off a bunch of state land some land locked, some they just didn't feel was worth much. My dad bought 180 acres logged it and payed for the land and figured he had enough leftover for about 35 years of taxes, plus if he invested that money it would be much longer and he'd be able to log it again in 30 years, did the state make out in those deals? The land that sold went for pennies on the dollar and most was great hunting land. It happens, I've seen it first hand. I hope that I never see it happen again. Please contact your local reps and voice your option."
 
Its not a complicated issue, transferring public lands only makes sense if you ignore facts, ignore history, and don't think about it.
 
huntin50 wrote:
<I agree with the part I think we have a better chance of protecting our lands through the State and not through the Federal government. If the State tried to sell off prime hunting lands there would be a battle from sportsmen. We could rally at the State level>

Bill, Your a "Babe in the Woods". Just in our area in South Central Utah on a couple of school sections that was PRIME HUNTING, the State Of Utah came in and sold them to private land owners. Now all you can see on both sections is PRIVATE PROPERTY - NO TRESSPASSING. Once those lots are paid for, the State will need more money for more Land Sales - OH, Let's see that's where we're at now!!

I would rather have higher taxes than all of our public land being made private. Those outdoors people living in the East will straighten you out once they have been here in Utah enjoying all of our public land.
 
Who would have ever thought that sportsmen would have ANYTHING in common with the environmental groups. I am still debating who is the greater threat......tree huggers, wolf lovers, anti hunting groups or the Republicans.

While the tree huggers and wolf lovers may have a different agenda and viewpoint I can still argue my point with them and if necessary settle it in court. I will really have nothing to argue about once a no trespassing goes up.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-15
>AT 08:01?AM (MST)

>
>Politicians don't care about facts or
>numbers, they only care about
>votes and money.
>If you going to comment to
>a government agency, numbers and
>details matter.
>
>Get mad at them, and tell
>them, they get it.


Now wait piper. I thought that was just conservatives and the libs were actually the atheist equivalent to the Holy Trinity??

4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-17-15 AT 06:00AM (MST)[p]Lawdy! Please don't shut down the handout store!

Yall have some really f-ed up priorities.

Go back and replace the words "hunting" and "public land" with "gubmint check" and "Obama phones" and y'all would sound exactly like those roaches sucking this country dry.

Do you know what is amazing about free men? Most will voluntarily enslave themselves to the person that trains them to accept a handout. In this case the Feds have you lemmings paid for and trained.
 
You have a Fouled up thought process tristate.
The resources and access to the land transcend your narrow minded view of the world and its politics.
 
>Lady! Please don't shut down the
>handout store!
>
>Tall have some really f-ed up
>priorities.
>
>Go back and replace the words
>"hunting" and "public land" with
>"gubmint check" and "Obama phones"
>and y'all would sound exactly
>like those roaches sucking this
>country dry.
>
>Do you know what is amazing
>about free men? Most
>will voluntarily enslave themselves to
>the person that trains them
>to accept a handout.
>In this case the Feds
>have you lemmings paid for
>and trained.


Says the wildlife Leech, who's every bean on his brat kids plate is paid for from dead wildlife. Talk about sucking this country dry.
 
Wait... The Clinton's? Get real! Escalante with a stroke of a pen. First of all you are a republican because you don't believe in the Democrat platform : gay marriage, abortion, wealth distribution, entitlements, spend, spend, spend. You do yourself zero favors when you aline yourself with a Clinton.

Secondly, she would tell you she is for Federal land control and then sell it to the chi com's when you are sleeping..

Third, if anyone in this thread mentions voting for Hillary when talking about a sportsmen's issue then I will discount your impute and take you as a poser.

Lastly, all you guys in Rep Bob Bishop's district please find a new fresh congressmen to take his place. You know he is the guy behind this back in Washington, he is the one that has been working on it for the last 3 years and you all that live in ruel Utah keep voting this guy in... He is a lifer in Washington and is way out of touch with you!
 
huntin50, your killing me man. You've said a couple of times now that if they sold the land we'd hold them accountable.

1. It would be too late. Vote them out or not the land is gone forever.

2. The state has already sold 3.8 million out of 7 million acres they started with and nobody cared.

3. The state-sanctioned report, as optimistic as it was with projections still never projected a surplus of cash (or fully recovering the initial cash outlay). What happens when some of the projections prove too optimistic and Utah MUST start selling land or increasing consumption use just to pay the bills. By then it's too late and they'll sell the land anyway, or drill it beyond its natural state.

BrowningRage, I won't have access to a computer for a few days and it would be too hard to compile from my phone, but there are great email lists on the Legislature Web page.

Grizzly
 
Buzz said, "The issue really is that important, and I agree, the biggest threat to hunting, hiking, camping, fishing that any of us will likely see in our life-times."

grizzly said, "If hunting as we know it is gone in a generation, it won't be the ESA, it won't be wolves, it won't be Federal regulation, it will be because our own legislatures (from the party most of us elected) passed this Land Grab."

Cannonball said, "This issue is probably the most important issues for Sportsmen in more than a decade. Probably more important than wolves being introduced to Utah. That's my take on it anyway. One thing we know is when the State of Utah has land they sell it to the private sector."


...and I believe it. This is going on in most every Western State guys!

I can't think of a single issue more important than to protect our existing ownership and access to our own public lands.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Representative Oda tried to tell me that hunting would be okay with land becoming private because that's how it is back East. I find this unacceptable. He did not deny that land would be sold.

Here is the response I got from the Governor.

-----

Thank you for your email to the Office of the Governor and to the Lieutenant Governor regarding the transfer of public lands. I have been asked to respond on behalf of the Governor. Our office appreciates hearing from constituents and your comments and opinion regarding this issue have been noted.

A transfer of public lands from federal to state ownership and management will protect and enhance sportsmen's access to and enjoyment of the lands. Contrary to what sportsmen are being told, the lands will remain public lands, and will not pass to private ownership. Under state management existing access will be preserved and protected, unlike the federal predisposition to close roads and restrict access to hunting and fishing areas. Sportsmen and sportswomen everywhere should support and look forward to the state's multiple use/multiple access public lands policy.

Thank you for taking the time to contact us regarding this matter.

Sincerely,

Austin Cox
Constituent Services
--------

It reminds me of Obama promising us we could keep our doctor and health plan if we wanted. The educated people knew it was a lie because they understood the law and the logistics behind it. Now the Governors office is going to tell us we can keep public land, even though it says that nowhere in any bill or proposed bill.

Mike Lee and others have specifically called for the"disposal" of all Federal land to private owners and the States own report says selling land will be necessary. But they'll tell us what they think we want to hear anyway. The exact same way they passed Obamacare.

I want to see written in the law that protecting wildlife and habitat will be the foremost concern and that not one acre of land will ever be sold. I also want the bill to say to change these parts will take voter approval and 75% majority in both houses of Congress plus the signature of the Governor.

If they won't put it writing with that level of guarantee, they'll just tell us what it takes to get it passed, then change the rules later. All politicians really are the same.

Grizzly
 
My reply to the Governors office...
-----
Mr. Cox, thanks for your reply.

Curt Oda responded to an email of mine and said hunting would still be okay in Utah because back East is already private land and they still get to hunt. He did not deny the selling of public property.

Mike Lee and others have proposed bills specifically calling for privatization of federal land.

And now you're saying it won't ever be sold. Do you realize that the State of Utah started with 7 million acres of Trust land and has sold 3.8 million of those acres? Do you realize that if it weren't for hunters that SITLA would've drilled the Book Cliffs last year and the accompanying infrastructure would've been marred it forever? Are you aware your own state-sanctioned report said selling land would likely be necessary and that outdoor recreation interests would take a backseat to more profitable interests?

I have seen no verbiage in any bills or proposals strictly banning the disposal of ALL public lands. I have seen no verbiage stating wildlife and habitat would be a deciding factor in future land - use decisions.

How do you intend to create 250,000 jobs on this land (a common number tossed around by proponents) and raise billions of dollars on that land without harming wildlife and habitat?

You're talking yourself in circles and hunters have figured it out. Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation and Backcountry Hunters & Anglers have already started to campaign against this scheme. Eastmans Hunting Journal ran an editorial this week as well.

I recommend you make this right with hunters or you're going to have a mass exodus from stalwart Republicans to newfound Democrats.

Thanks for your time,

------
Grizzly
 
Will one of you give an actual logical argument to why killing an animal on private land is no longer "hunting". Somehow millions of people every year kill millions of beasts on private land but according to yall that isn't hunting?????? I want to know what the difference is to the actual tactics and skills of hunting, or is it just a bunch of titty babies crying because they are scared the tit's about to be jerked out of their mouths?
 
I am so glad to see so much passion and opinions on this issue (that's what I love about this site) but let's remind ourselves not to criticize other people for their views.

Respectfully,
Joe

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 
Who is this Tristate? He must me from back East. He couldn't have lived in Utah for any length of time. Our main sporting commodities have been elk and mule deer, not turkeys and whitetail. A lot of the Eastern States have thousands of acres or others are heavily wooded with a lot of moisture. Mule deer needs some open areas and elk need rough country, unless of course you have a private sanctuary. What I am trying to say is you are comparing apples to oranges.

I traveled back East for my job some years ago and I am going to repeat what I have said again and again. What all of those Easterners, that have been to Utah, said, "BE GLAD YOU LIVE IN UTAH WHERE THERE IS SO MUCH FEDERAL LAND. HERE(in the East), WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING UNLESS YOU JOIN A HUNTING CLUB OR AN OFF ROAD CLUB. YOU'RE ALWAY ON PRIVATE LAND AND IT COSTS BIG MONEY.

Why do you think they call the Eastern people the Porch people. That is where most, will find themselves if all the land is private. Your legislatures don't care about you, most have enough money because they either will own the land or have enough money to belong to a hunting club or have access to their friends land. The only thing they care about is votes and you're going to have to make sure they understand, if they back this issue, they will be out of office. You have to be loud and you have to be clear.

As for Tri-State I'm sure he must make most of his living off of the people who can afford these clubs.
 
CBall, our resident and favorite troll, Tristate is from Texas.
A public land deer hunt for him would consist
Of being lead to a blind by a fish cop. Being sat down
And a timer started. After 4 hours the timer would
Go off and he'd be lead back to the parking lot
By the fish cop. The fish cop would then escort the next
Texas public land hunter to the blind for their 4 hour shift.

Sounds like some quality hunting we should all sign up for right??

Did I leave anything out Tritip??






"The State of Utah has not given BGF anything.
They have invested in BGF to protect their
interests."
Birdman 4/15/15
 
We can argue this issue 'til the cows come home, but there's a point that shouldn't be forgotten. As Bill Christensen said in his speech at the recent rally at the capitol, it's better to deal with the devil you know than the devil you don't know.

Fact is, we can speculate, but we don't know exactly what would happen if Utah gained control of these lands... except that there will be no turning back. Once it's done, it's done.

I love gambling, but the odds on this bet aren't good and the stakes are way too high.
 
Wiley,
DOes it matter to you that there isn't one part of that entire post of yours that is true except that I am from Texas. Texas where there are millions upon millions of acres of mule deer hunting ON PRIVATE LAND!
 
It's not hard to speculate what would happen, we have the past to look at, we have references from different local politicians and we know the motivational forces behind this movement.
 
>We can argue this issue 'til
>the cows come home, but
>there's a point that shouldn't
>be forgotten. As Bill Christensen
>said in his speech at
>the recent rally at the
>capitol, it's better to deal
>with the devil you know
>than the devil you don't
>know.

>I love gambling, but the odds
>on this bet aren't good
>and the stakes are way
>too high.

Exactly.

These proposals are incredibly short sighted and greedy. Everyone needs to look at who they vote for very carefully and quite frankly look at anyone with an "R" behind their name with skepticism. This IS the most important issue sportsmen have ever faced in my lifetime. The R's are driving it, remember that (sad but true).

With Federal ownership, everyone has a seat at the table in regards to management decisions if they want it. Its called the National Environmental Policy Act. The NEPA process is not perfect, but at least every citizen in this country can have a voice. You will not get that under state management; you will be lucky if you even have access. The federal system might need some tweaking but it is definitely not broken; step back and take a look at what we have!!!! Free access to millions of acres, much of it in pristine condition!

Sportsman's groups NEED to unite with environmental groups in opposition to this. It is bigger and more important than all of us. A bigger voice is needed.

This is nothing more than a land grab and sportsmen, and every other American, will lose big if it happens. Its all about the money, nothing more.

Petition signed, letters to politicians forthcoming. I am adamantly opposed to the transfer of federal lands to states or the sale of ANY public lands, period.
 
The forest service and other government agencies are large cumbersome bureaucratic institutions.

That's the way they were designed. They are resistant to change by the whims of whatever politicians are in charge at any given time.

That's what's different, and that makes all the difference in the world.
If you want to see successive generations enjoy the freedom of public land, then this short sighted agenda needs to be stopped.
 
Letter from Mike Noel
-------

Sorry that you feel the transfer of public lands will kill hunting in Utah. Why would I or anyone else who has hunted in Utah all my life want to destroy that for my children and grandchildren? Utah has a great hunting and fishing heritage. Unfortunately the Feds and the eastern liberals who run the public land manages hate hunting and hunters. The best Mule Deer herd in the world is right outside my window surrounding my ranch. I am heavily invested in making sure hunting and access to these beautiful public lands remains open to you and every citizen of this country. I just believe like 90 % of the legislature, that Utah mmcan manage it far better than people 2000 miles away in DC. If you want to discuss this give me a call.

--------

My response...

-------

Mr. Noel, thanks for the reply, I always appreciate honest dialogue.

The State of Utah has a history of selling its land, about half of the acreage once controlled by the state is now in private hands (3.8 of about 7 million acres). As a politician and ranch owner, you have opportunities that hunters like myself don't have. I don't get to hunt on private property. Without federal land I have to stay home. In fact, the number one reason people say they no longer hunt is loss of access. This bill will only increase the rate at which hunting dwindles in the West.

I have been told by various legislators, as well as the Governors office, two separate stories; one is that only undesirable land will be sold, and the other is that no land will transfer from public to private control. Which is it? And who decides what is desirable?

If it weren't for hunters, SITLA would've drilled Book Cliffs just last year. And you expect hunters to believe it will be different in the future? That was a closed-door deal that nearly marred one of our most pristine backcountry areas forever. And all for a little gas and oil?

Teddy Roosevelt understood as a hunter and conservationist that we have a solumn duty to protect our wild and scenic places for our children and our children's children, forever. And many hunters like me feel you're trying to throw that away to pay for a government that dug itself a hole it can't dig out of.

The problem you have is Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, Backcountry Hunters & Anglers, and now Eastmans Hunting Journal are all building up against this scheme. You face a time when stalwart Republicans, your base, start voting Democrat to keep public land public. (If you don't believe me, check out the forums at rokslide.com, hunttalk.com, and monstermuleys.com as grassroots momentum is building)

Your own state-sanctioned study said disposal of land would likely be necessary and that outdoor recreation interests would have to take a backseat to more profitable endeavors. Proponents like to say 250,000 jobs and billions of dollars will be created on this land. How do you intend to do that and maintain wildlife and habitat? It can't happen.

I think your heart is in the right place, but until there is a bomb-proof protection for ALL public lands you're going to be fighting to climb an increasingly steep hill among your own constituents. (Did you ever think you'd see Sierra Club and RMEF working together? It's happening.)

Please consider verbiage in the law that requires ALL land to remain public with full access, and that wildlife and habitat must be a foremost deciding factor in land - use decisions. Also include a clause that the only way those requirements can be overturned is with voter approval as well as 75% approval in both houses of Congress as well as a signature by the Governor. Because frankly many of us don't trust the government to keep their word... hopefully you can understand that.

Thanks for your time. I look forward to your reply.

--------
Grizzly
 
Since when do facts matter to you??




"The State of Utah has not given BGF anything.
They have invested in BGF to protect their
interests."
Birdman 4/15/15
 
This is all great to see...sportsmen getting fired up over an "idea" that will have long-term impacts on hunting, fishing, camping, etc.

Hold your elected officials accountable for this horrific idea of transferring public lands to the States.

If your Legislators don't see the light, send them packing in the next election. The sportsmen/women in the Western States can clearly swing an election...ask former anti-sportsmen politician Denny Rehberg. He ignored sportsmen/women and it cost him his job.

BTW, great post crabclaw!!! Couldn't agree more.
 
I'm hammering all of them now,R&D, and calling them on the lies.
With it being campaign season again, or still/forever,I encourage every American voter to do same, in public, before your peers,before cameras.
I just told my congressmans field rep,Steve Pierce(R), in the local cafe that I will be doing everything in my power as a citizen to make sure he is out of office next go around.
I voted for him and told him I didn't like being lied to about facts,agendas,or the selling of America for the profit of a select few. The fact that he continues to vote against MY best interests and then distort facts and numbers to cover up his record of voting against MY and my countries best interests.

Now they are ALL voting against OUR best interests should get others worked up a bit.
 
I'll make this so simple, anyone other than a politician can understand it.

The UT "Transfer" study is built around oil and gas being at $90 per barrel. That is not even accounting for fires, tax payments to counties, etc. Anything lower than that and the idea/lands lose money. According to all the western state Constitutions, the lands have to make money. Unprofitable assets are disposed.

Assume the Saudi Prince wakes up one morning and decides he is PO'd at the world. He and his OPEC pals decide they can flood the oil market for the next two decades, the same as they have the last eight months. They drive oil prices way under the $90 per barrel UT says it needs in order to make the plan a break-even.

Even without any big fires, when we get oil prices at $50 per barrel because we have a pissed off Saudi Prince; how long you think it will be until your hunting grounds are on the auction block?

I'm not too keen on the Saudi Prince and his fellow radicals determining how long public lands stay public. It is that simple.

If you don't want the Saudi Prince and his fellow OPEC pals deciding the fate of your children's hunting access, now is your time to do something about it.

Thanks to all who are making a ruckus.






"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
Oh my gosh! NOW I HAVE HEARD IT ALL! The mean old Saudi prince is going to ruin hunting for my kids. Are you writing stories for the tabloids on the side? Maybe Ronald McDonald is pushing this too so he can sell more happy meals, Right?????


At least Grizzly has been the closest to honest with this discussion. He thinks if all land becomes private he will no longer afford hunting because he will actually have to spend money to hunt. Yall are all to chicken to admit this is more of this class warfare junk I have been watching on here for years. YOU HAVE BEEN RECIEVING HANDOUTS FOR YEARS AND NOW YOU ARE TOO CHICKEN TO HAVE TO PAY YOUR WAY FOR YOUR HOBBY.

Listen to yall. In the world where your representatives are dealing and voting on wars, fiscal stimulus, spending bills, crime, EVEN YOUR OWN KIDS HEALTHCARE, and you are deciding your votes on who will pay you off with "FREE HUNTING".

There isn't a free man amongst you.
 
Tripstate, you don't know your ass from your elbow.



"The State of Utah has not given BGF anything.
They have invested in BGF to protect their
interests."
Birdman 4/15/15
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-18-15 AT 07:52PM (MST)[p]I do find most everything he says is....just plain stupid.
He had to have bought that too,as it's way beyond normal dumb.
Tristate. .....it's priceless.
 
"Oh my gosh! NOW I HAVE HEARD IT ALL! The mean old Saudi prince is going to ruin hunting for my kids. Are you writing stories for the tabloids on the side? Maybe Ronald McDonald is pushing this too so he can sell more happy meals, Right?????


At least Grizzly has been the closest to honest with this discussion. He thinks if all land becomes private he will no longer afford hunting because he will actually have to spend money to hunt. Yall are all to chicken to admit this is more of this class warfare junk I have been watching on here for years. YOU HAVE BEEN RECIEVING HANDOUTS FOR YEARS AND NOW YOU ARE TOO CHICKEN TO HAVE TO PAY YOUR WAY FOR YOUR HOBBY.

Listen to yall. In the world where your representatives are dealing and voting on wars, fiscal stimulus, spending bills, crime, EVEN YOUR OWN KIDS HEALTHCARE, and you are deciding your votes on who will pay you off with "FREE HUNTING".

There isn't a free man amongst you."

Spoken like a true jealous TexASS jackass. What's the matter Pig? You jealous because we can hunt wherever we want and you're stuck "hunting" to same old tired lease year after year after year. Must get pretty boring hunting the same ole TexASS crap all the time, huh Pig? Only a complete Jackass would want the western states to become like some sh!Thole like TexASS.
 
It's great to see sportsmen and conservationists coming together on such an important issue. I'm a WI resident and have been all my life. Im 35 years old and have hunted elk on public land every year since 1998 in Oregon, Montana, New Mexico, Colorado, and I'm building points in every state out west for every species I can. As a father of two young boys I hope you all can convince your representatives that keeping public land public is simply the right thing to do. Anyone talkin about how public land hunting east of the Rockies is better than what it is out west is crazy. I live 30 minutes north of buffalo county which is known for world class whitetail deer hunting. 100% private and big $ leases!!! I'm very fortunate to make a great living but I consider the six figure federal income tax I pay each year my lease payment to be able to drive out west to multiple states and have high quality hunting and fishing. For TRISTATE to lump me into the group of someone expecting to hunt public land for free and someone just looking for a handout...you pay my tax bill going forward and I'll agree I'm a leech. You shouldnt have to be wealthy to have a quality hunt! Thank god I do make a good living because my fear is we'll live in a land that our ancestors fought the red coats to not copy before my hunting career is over. Old England was all private hunting and fishing and poor peasants never had an opportunity to enjoy quality hunting and fishing! Keep up the good work GRIZZ!! Proud life member of RMEF!
 
" You shouldnt have to be wealthy to have a quality hunt!"


I want you to back that up with logic. What makes you entitled to a "quality hunt"? That is no different than me saying I am entitled to an Obama phone or a gubmint check. You said it now back it up with more than feelings.

I love the logic of I pay taxes so I am ENTITLED TO WHATEVER I BELIEVE? Who brainwashes yall with this garbage?


Look I don't have a problem with you wanting to keep lands as Federal public lands but the best argument you have is "the devil I know"??????? Are you sh!tting me???? That's the best you can do.
 
Tristate- It has nothing to do with the devil you know, it has to do with what you believe.

You apparently believe that all land should be privately owned, some of us don't.

I Wouldn't want to live in this country if the west was all privately owned, the mountain peaks the rivers, lakes and wildlife.
To me it would be horrible.
The loss of freedom is unimaginable to me, it's not just about hunting either, it's hiking, river running, climbing, fishing or just getting away from the confines of society and feeling a little of the freedom that most humans want.

To me your attitude is as foreign and strange as any religious fanatic in the middle east,

While I can only shake my head, it gives me a better understanding of wars and terrorism and all the pitfalls over resource ownership and human culture.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-19-15 AT 07:35PM (MST)[p]Nope wait a minute you are correct, a person should have to be wealthy to have a "quality" hunt. Not sure what I was thinking before...thanks for setting me straight! Roosevelt was such an ignorant, close minded fool for dreaming up our model of conservation. Sell all public land, post it all, let the private landowner manage his own property. Who needs the the DNR to help manage wildlife, if all animals are privetly owned on my property then I own them! Lakes, streams, and land! Enough of all these free government handouts!!! Next I'll build my own airport, school and hospital! What a life changing moment I had reading your posts TRISTATE!!

http://blog.eastmans.com/public-land-sell-off/
 
I sure hope in not the only one taking the time to email the state and federal legislators. Election season is coming up and we need to change the script before then to have a chance at this. If Western voters don't understand what they're voting on, they'll vote Republican out of habit and we'll be stuck with the outcome.

Please take the time to call or email any Congressman that you can. I've been emailing people outside of my district simply because the more mail they get, the better.

(Also, ignore Tristate. If you respond even once, he won and a good thread goes bad. I promise, there's a better chance of informing the non-believers of the dangers this scheme poses if nobody responds to him. Plus, you'll enjoy MM more.)

Grizzly
 
Just contacted the governers office. Don't have much for congress here in Wyoming But I'm doing what I can.
Thanks grizzly
 
People like Tristate try to use the political rhetoric of the day to scare hunters with threats of calling them 'liberals' or 'socialists.' (Or as he put it here, leeches.) But what do you guys sounds more like a leech? 1- A guy that wants land that belongs 100% to the public to remain public; or 2- The guy that is on the record as saying public wildlife should be sold to the highest bidder...depending entirely upon a public resource to make money? Which of these two sound more like the entitlement programs many conservatives don't like?

Interesting Noel states he is an advocate of leaving public lands public for his children and grandchildren. Mike Noel is one of the staunchest privatization advocates in the Utah legislature. And he has already voted multiple times to severely restrict the public's access to public resources. so until he puts his money where his mouth is with a vote, I can't trust that he means that and it's just another political smoke screen.

The question to ask any advocate of the transfer in or out of the legislature revolves around this: In the sage grouse debacle going on right now, the Utah legislature has projected that Utah will lose a projected 250,000 future jobs and $20 billion in revenue. We have to ask ourselves (and those advocating this mess) what on earth they plan to do in sage grouse habitat that will create 250,000 jobs and how the hell that will benefit us as hunters? I've yet to get a single advocate to answer that question. I've asked dozens.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-20-15 AT 00:00AM (MST)[p]As much as I worry about loosing public land and access to hunting what is now on public land, as committed as I am to preserving these lands for public multiple use, I will never vote for a Democrat, local, State or Federal. As important to me as hunting and the outdoor lifestyle is, there are absolutely too many other, far more important things, that I care about, (under the current Democrat National Platform) to every vote for one, regardless of the public lands transfer issue.

I can hardly bring myself to vote for Republicans, they have practically all become Democrats!

I'll take my fight to the Republican Party and try to elect Republicans that will make sure this mess doesn't go south, but never, ever, not once, over any current issue will I vote Democrat. Can't do it, won't do it. And for those of you threatening to, over this issue, "Katie bar the door", your cutting your nose off to spite your face.

The answer is to fix the wishy-wasty Republican Party, NOT elect more Democrat. Pardon me but, have you lost your fricking narrow minds?

That's about as honest as I can be Tri, short of a I-15 billboard!

DC
 
We aren't worried about you partisian political views lumpy, we are worried about public land and the access to it.
 
Now I understand how people like Lee and Love got elected
And how Hatch and Bishop stay in office.




"The State of Utah has not given BGF anything.
They have invested in BGF to protect their
interests."
Birdman 4/15/15
 
I'm a registered Republican, been so all my adult life and my family as well before me but i fit in to Lumpy's, "wishy-wasty narrow minded" group. I vote for what i feel is right and good for the Country, not for a party line just because they tell me to!

Keep yer Paws off our/my/your Federal Public Lands!

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
>I'm a registered Republican, been so
>all my adult life and
>my family as well before
>me but i fit in
>to Lumpy's, "wishy-wasty narrow minded"
>group. I vote for what
>i feel is right and
>good for the Country, not
>for a party line just
>because they tell me to!
>
>
>Keep yer Paws off our/my/your Federal
>Public Lands!
>
>Joey
>
>
>"It's all about knowing what your
>firearms practical limitations are and
>combining that with your own
>personal limitations!"

+1 I am a longtime "Decline to State". My party was co-opted,as the others have.
Think for Yourself!
 
Guess I take a more simplistic approach.
Laws come and go, taxes come as well as do tax cuts.

American society is fickle and shifting with the winds.

BUT!! And it's a big damn BUT, once this land goes, it's gone forever
Not only for us but for our kids and grandkids.
Regardless of party affiliation once something is put in motion, like this
Public land theft, that can't be undone by American society and the people
They elect.






"The State of Utah has not given BGF anything.
They have invested in BGF to protect their
interests."
Birdman 4/15/15
 
"I hope everyone rereads lumpys last post...then read it again."

I read it twice, then remembered the last 20 or so posts that he's made on the subject. Unless he has done a 180 on the topic, he has been faithful to the State taking over and managing, our Public Lands.

I don't care what party you are, leave our Public lands, in all the Western States, alone.

Joey



"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
LMAO!!! Classic!
2lumpy, you are Utarded through and through.
Like I said before Ted Bundy could win an election in Utah as long as he has an "R" next to his name thanks to the likes of Lumpy. Who's narrow minded?
 
Politics shouldn't be a team sport where we will never cheer for the other team even when they are actually the only chance we have at slowing down this land transfer. Working from within the party is great, but when there is no opposing force within the state to keep current politicians honest that is at best an uphill battle. Take the election of Senator Lee in Utah for example. If there is a change working within the party in Utah, that change is headed in a direction that is less beneficial to us as sportsmen.

Utah is an echo chamber politically and that is part of why this nonsense in the state even has legs. There are barely enough opposing voices representing our state on the federal or local level to be any more than a faint whisper that's drowned out in the name of economic progress.

Putting aside the rhetoric, history and studies show what will have to happen to this land if the State takes control. I don't doubt that many of the lawmakers have decent intentions, but they are short-sighted and it is not hyperbole to say that they absolutely endanger our heritage as public land hunters.
 
As long as the money printing press doesn't break down more than 1/2 hr./month I think the future of Federal public land hunting looks bright.:)

Eel

It's written in the good Book that we'll never be asked to take more than we can. Sounds like a good plan, so bring it on!
 
I think you missed the point of Lumpy's post. I think what he was saying was there are more important issues than this item that reinforces his status as a Republican. He would rather take the influence to change their thinking which is not bad considering Utah's inequity between political parties. On the other hand, I think they are just like a hard headed rock on this issue, but I am in line with most of the Republican platform. This is an important issue and we need to scare the heck out of them. They need to think twice about their stand on public lands. I am not saying I will, but I might vote Democrat if I find the right candidate and for me that is a real bold statement.

At least we need to make sure those in our party of choice understand how we feel.
 
I understand what he was saying. He said in no way whatsoever would he ever vote for a non-republican. I understand the hesitancy, especially on a lot of social issues that I find reprehensible.

The more I try to be objective about politics, however, I realize that there are people on both sides of the aisle doing a lot of good.....and conversely a lot of bad. On this particular issue I believe the Republicans have it wrong, and therefore I'm willing to support someone who will look out for our interests. Look at Martin Heinrich(D) in NM for example...

It may not be this way for everyone, but aside from my family and religion, the ability to decompress and enjoy public land for all types of recreation is as important to me on an individual level as a a great number of other issues that are sticking points against supporting someone with a D next to their name.

Am I saying we should all go vote Democrat across the board? Absolutely not. I think all it takes is one look at California to realize both extremes are equally terrifying. As sportsmen we need to take an honest look at each issue and decide who to support based on our priorities. I would wager that most here highly value the ability to utilize public land for hunting.
 
In all fairness to 2Lumpy, he has stated several times in other threads that he is in favor of access for sportsmen and how the lands would be used. It's just who would have access and who controls the usage that has me worried.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
I agree, try to change things if you don't like them. Many on here are voicing their opinions and that is good.
 
As sage has said, I stated my opinion at least 20 times and I'll repeat it again.

I "don't want the State to take over the current Federal Public lands", I want the Feds to keep it but "the Feds must stop screwing with the multiple use concept of their stewardship".

HOW MUCH MORE SIMPLY, SUCCINCTLY, STRAIGHT FORWARD CAN I BE.

The Feds need to stop locking out various users though increased regulations and restrictions and manage "all" these public lands as they were intended, at there inception. Stop creating more parks, monuments, park and monument buffer zones, wilderness areas, and wilderness study area. They need to stop using these lands, and access issues, to garner political votes. They need to stop creating more and more and more and more agencies that have more power than the National Forest Service and the BLM agencies, such as the EPA, US Fish and Wildlife Service, the Endangered Species Act and all the other agencies that have been created, that are judge and jury, outside the public and election process.

Pres. T. Roosevelt who established these lands and the original management concepts would roll over in his North American Wildlife Conservation Model grave, if he could see what the Feds have bastardize the Federal Lands System into. You never convince me it was Roosevelt's vision to restore all of these big game species and lock them away from the hunting community through one kind of access restriction or another.

Roosevelt would roll over in his 2nd Amendment Rights grave, if he could see what politicians have done to the right to own and bear arms and he would go into a rage if he knew how much more restrictive they are still trying to make them. He didn't lead the Rough Riders into Cuba to give the country up to pacifists and pacifist sympathizers..

Roosevelt would roll over in his Endangered Species grave, if he could see what politicians do by establishing bureaucracies to control. beyond the reach of the highest office in the land and how these bureaucracies have used spotted owls, snail darters, condors, and wolves etc alter big game species on public lands.

Regarding voting for an individual, regardless of his Political Party. If you think you can ignore National and State Party Policy in State and Federation elections, and vote for the individual, in hopes that that individuals personal integrity and interest will influence or change Party Policy, you have no clue how National and State politics functions. If the Party Policy say's it supports more gun control, you'll get more gun control , regardless of how your local Legislature votes. Haven't you noticed, "Federal Politicians vote Party LIne". Do know what that means? If you don't you damn well better look it up before you vote again.

All you Republican's, you go ahead and vote for a Democrat, over this land transfer deal and see what else you get to go with it.

Does hope and change mean any thing to you?

Your idea of hope and change isn't their idea of hope and change. If you switch who you vote for over this issue, you best be prepared to live with all the other issues you'll get to go with it.

You can, I won't!

But I don't expect a single one of you "rugged, independent, tougher than boot leather individuals" to blink a tear as the National Party Policy goes up your backside", after the votes are tallied.

When they come for your guns, don't b!tch, smile as you hand them in. Don't forget Grandpa's Model 12, and that pretty old 1894.

When they create the next wilderness study area, in your back yard, bend over a little, if you can't reach your ankles, they'll help you get there, so they can slip it in, thank them for their gentleness.

When they dump a load of wolves in your National Forest, take your ipad out on your hikes with you lap dogs, so you can record the howls of the kills, and give that woman weeping in orgasmic ecstasy, back down town Philadelphia, a warm and gentle hug, to share your joy and deepest understanding.

When they close access to your back yard, so the spotted owl, the fly catcher, the condor, and the sage grouse can die off without your interference, sigh a gentle sigh and know you did you part, because you cared by GAWD.

Oh yea, I know, I know. Paranoia is a nasty, rational altering companion.

Ask the Canadians, ask the Australians, ask the British, ask the Mexicans. Their "lack of paranoia" did them a lot of good, "DIDN'T IT"?

Can't happen here?

If you think what the State will do with these lands, if they get them, is predictable, you sure as hell don't have to predict what the Feds will do, they are already doing it. They are just turning up the heat slowly so the frogs don't notice the change in the temperature. (ssssshhhh, if you don't struggle and fight, we can just do it slow, so it won't hurt)

NOW, I've also said this 20 times, but I'll repeat it again.

I don't trust the Republicans much more than I do the Democrats, but I'm focusing my efforts on the Republicans. (you all will do what you want, just be damn sure you're happy with the "total" package.)

Be sure you know what you're electing "my friends", for the 20th time, votes have far reaching comprehensive consequences, far beyond your hunting honey hole.

Wear your Republican's butt out, to make sure we preserve Roosevelt's "multiple use" concept, in it's entirety. These damn Republicans know damn well most of us will vote Republican, regardless of this issue, and they think they can take advantage of it. Don't let them, let them know, if they try to force this issue, we'll elect Republicans that will approach this public lands issue differently than an Federal Lands transfer. FIX THIS TAR BABY WHERE IT NEEDS TO BE FIXED, WITH IN THE FEDERAL SYSTEM, LIKE IT WAS INTENDED WHEN "THE REPUBLICAN T. ROOSEVELT" BUILT IT FOR US.

Ask yourself this, I'm I willing to hunt with only archery equipment, forever, and defend my country from a tyrannical government, be it Republican, Democrat, Communist, Sharia, Fascist, Nazi, or whom every, with a Molotov cocktail and a butcher knife, like the Polish and the Hungarians tried to do in 1953. It's a hell of a lot easier defended our country in the election booth than it is at our front door, staring down barrel of an AK47 or an M4 carbine.

Again.........20 times, again. This land transfer is not going to happen. The State knows it, so do the Feds. If anything, we'll see the State attempt to settle for a large revenue allocation from the Feds, off oil, gas, mining, lumber, etc revenues that are presently going to the Federal government and or private industries (in the way of taxes and/or cooperate profits, the State's (not just Utah) believe they need this revenue, with western State's rapidly expanding population and related public service requirement and in my opinion, our States deserves a larger share of the revenues being generated off these lands.)

I understand many of you disagree, for now it's a free country, so I get disagree with you, as do you with me. It's great isn't it. What's more, for now, I can do it, for free, over the internet, "for now".

Don't squander it, for any reason.

DC
 
Could you Imagine spending a week long wilderness hunt with lumpy? Cramped up in a backpack tent?

After listening to that nonsensical emotional drivel , I have decided I'm going to say this heartfelt prayer tonight.
"Lord, don't let tards hurt my family or future generations," Lord help educate those that need it, and Lord please don't let those that deceive take away our outdoor heritage from the good honest people of this earth.
 
2lumpy, as if on cue, here we go again.

EPIC Convinces Feds that Spotted Owl May Be Endangered

?While it is important the Fish and Wildlife Service is acknowledging the dire population declines in northern spotted owls warrants a review for endangered status, it remains incomprehensible that the agency continues to sign off on logging of owl habitat under the unscientific ruse of saving habitat from fire while also authorizing ?take? of reproductively successful pairs,? said Denise Boggs, Executive Director of Conservation Congress. ?The Service must insist on protecting all remaining suitable owl habitat and no ?take? should be authorized for a species with declining populations throughout its range,? she said.

http://lostcoastoutpost.com/2015/apr/8/spotted-owl-may-move-threatened-endangered/

Eel

It's written in the good Book that we'll never be asked to take more than we can. Sounds like a good plan, so bring it on!
 
Except we can now carry in National Parks
And DC has dropped the handgun ban.

And wolves were delisted and
Bin Laden has a few new 5.56 piercings.

All under a Democrat.

Carry on.

"The State of Utah has not given BGF anything.
They have invested in BGF to protect their
interests."
Birdman 4/15/15
 
DC, let's break this down...

On economic issues... Dems and Repubs are the same. The last balanced budget was under a Democrat and the escalating debt was started under a Republican and has continued under Republicans in Congress and a Democrat in the White House. Nobody can claim 'fiscal responsibility' as far as I'm concerned.

As to morals... Newt Gingrich in his 'Contract with America' promised a list of items that he would pass which led to the Republican Revolution of the 90's. The sole item on that list that was voted down and not passed was Term Limits for Congress. Everything else he proposed, they agreed except the one that would take away their swanky jobs and perceived power. Congressmen on both sides are no different with your, or my, money. They only care about getting reelected, and most of the time they use your, and my, money to do that.

As for social issues... frankly I don't care whom marries whom. I don't have to sleep with anybody that I don't want to, and neither do you. So why should I care? Also, I'm not going to tell somebody else what to do with their body. I just want to worry about me and my family, and that includes the activities we cherish, like spending time outdoors.

On 2nd Amendment... there is already a very powerful lobby, the NRA, that is maybe the most powerful lobby in the world. We have two very recent Supreme Court decisions to stand on, plus that pesky thing called the Constitution to protect us. Plus, any gun law can be repealed if it was done under too partisan of circumstances (think Clinton's Federal Assault Weapons Ban, which lasted 10 years and expired). Even with Obama controlling both Houses of Congress, they were unable to pass any gun control laws. We must remain firmly against Gun Control, but not to the detriment of our future elsewhere. I don't feel this is necessarily an imminent threat.

However, the Federal Land Grab Fraud is a completely final, irrevocable action, that very easily could be imminent. It does not necessarily even involve a court case. All it takes is Ted Cruz, Rand Paul, or any number of Republican to win the White House (which most on MM probably actually want) while the Republicans maintain control of Senate (as they likely will by looking at the electoral map) and an idiot like Rob Bishop to continue to Chair the Natural Resources Committee and throw these BS laws on the docket every year. The Senate, the "worlds most deliberative body" already voted 51-49 for it in a test vote. This is a completely plausible outcome in as little as 20 months. That scares the CRAP out of me.

THE LAND GRAB IS FOREVER! It can never be undone. And if the naysayers are right, and this turns into a boondoggle, then the slippery slope begins and more land has to be sold than anybody projected. The naysayers can't afford to be wrong. And NONE of the proponents can be sure we aren't.

Grizzly
 
The sad thing about lumpy is that he is getting from both ends, not only is he getting it in his face, he is also getting it from behind.

The elk kill offs in the Wasatch fish lake ect, are being done by his hero's, quietly and discreetly. In your face moves like the governer vetoing the stream access bill and this public lands transfer are bad, but the behind-the-scenes stuff really hurts too.

When someone is that blindly partisan they are easy to take advantage of, reminds of middle eastern extremeism.
 
What Lumpy says and what Griz says, both have merits. The only thing that worries me is holding on to the right rod.

Also with their commentaries I really worry about running out of paper. :)
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-21-15 AT 01:34PM (MST)[p]>What Lumpy says and what Griz
>says, both have merits.
>The only thing that worries
>me is holding on to
>the right rod.
>
>Also with their commentaries I really
>worry about running out of
>paper. :)

It certainly is a difficult decision to make, but the one thing we need to remember has been brought out several times by several people. If we accept the land swap at the get go, it's done and can't be reversed even if we realize later that it was a mistake based on the results and/or unintended consequences. On the other hand, if we hold it off and then realize we've made a mistake, it may take more work and time, but our first decision can still be reversed.

In making our decision, there are lots of other things to consider and most of them have also been brought up, but it all boils down to how high your outdoor activities are on your list of priorities. To get an idea, you might want to ask yourself the following questions among others:
1) Are they high enough that I/we regularly plan family time around them and/or spend a lot of spare time doing them?
2) Are they high enough that I/we regularly budget for them and/or spend a lot of money pursuing them?
3) Are they a consideration when I/we buy gifts?
4) Do I read or subscribe to outdoor magazines?
5) Are they a consideration when I/we buy a vehicle?
6) Do we pull the kids out of school to pursue them?
7) Am I or have I been a member of a hunting, fishing, camping group?
8) Do I attend RAC and Wildlife Board meetings or otherwise participate in the wildlife regulations making process?
9) Would my/our lifestyle significantly change if we weren't able to pursue these outdoor activities?
10) Etc.?
It's true that life would go on for any of us whether or not we hunted, fished, camped, hiked, rockclimbed or ATV'ed, but it would be diminished for most of us. Yet, we would survive.

However, it may not be so friendly to the wildlife. It takes money to manage wildlife, whether they are hunted or not and without a significant number of hunters and fishermen, most of those funds would dry up in spite of what we may read or hear.

Another consideration to think about is which government agency or agencies will best manage the land to the wildlife's and our benefit. It may be true that the state could better manage the lands than the federal government, but their "better" may not be your or my "better". And it appears from what I know, that they aren't striving for the same goals as I am when it comes to hunting and fishing. My hunting permit doesn't produce as much money per managed habitat acre as Limited Entry, CWMU, Conservation, Expo and landowner permits, so even if some land is saved for hunting, it won't be for my permit.

Finally, all this talk and emotion may, in fact, be mote. I personally don't think this effort will fly with congress or the general US public and we'll end up wasting our state tax dollars. But I think the issue important enough to stay in the fray until it's concluded.
 
"Finally, all this talk and emotion may, in fact, be mote. I personally don't think this effort will fly with congress or the general US public..."


I hope that you are right!!

I remember 40 years ago in Cali, the Libs tried a very aggressive Gun Control Measure, prop 15 i believe. It was bad enough that All the Gun Owners, hunters, target guys, everybody that had any interest in firearms really, all rose up, got together at the polls and completely blew the opposition away.

It took saying enough is enough but the lesson learned to the libs is that there is a sleeping lion out there, all across this land, and it's best not to wake him up.

Joey



"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
CrabClaw,

Wow. It is very, very interesting to see your passionate defense of NEPA. I knew the environmental wackos had done a good job brainwashing the city folk back east, but to see the support they seem to have among hunters who should know better is disappointing.

I'm sure your comments are giving a wacko environmentalist somewhere warm tingling feelings.
 
piper,

You said, " The forest service and other government agencies are large cumbersome bureaucratic institutions.

That's the way they were designed. They are resistant to change by the whims of whatever politicians are in charge at any given time.

That's what's different, and that makes all the difference in the world. "

Another passionate defense of government bureaucracy. Hunters, are these the type of people we really want to rally around?
 
Grizz,

I actually like your tactic, because even though I support the transfer of lands, I don't have a problem with making the language in the bill more specific as it pertains to selling the public lands.

I disagree with a lot of the hyperbole being said about this issue, but if the debate makes the land transfer bill a better bill in the process, I'm all for it.
 
BuzzH,

You said, "BTW, great post crabclaw!!! Couldn't agree more."

I assume you are referring to CrabClaw's post where he got emotionally choked up bragging about how wonderful NEPA is. Hunters, are these really the type of people we want to rally around.
 
hand4elk,

Hopefully, your spill to your representative contained some specific details about which specific votes he cast which you disagree with and specifically how they are negatively affecting you. Otherwise, he probably really won't have a clue what you are talking about.
 
BigFin,

I find it interesting that people are critical of the fiscal projections from the report but are absolutely dead certain that the clause about selling some lands is a direct verdict for the unilateral sell of all the lands the second the state gets "their grubby little hands on it".

The report is a report. If you want to take everything in it as gospel truth, at least do so consistently throughout the report. If you are skeptical of the report, that's fine too, but at least be skeptical consistently. When people pick and choose parts of the report and spin them in completely opposite directions depending on their personal perspective, it does more damage to the individual's credibility than anything else.
 
adubs,

The problem with your and many other peoples' perspectives is that it assumes leaving the lands in federal control will result in what you want. If you really believe that, then you have a very limited understanding of how prominent the "wolf as the predominate predator" philosophy is in federal land management philosophy. The concept that things will stay the same simply by preventing the transfer of lands to the states is not a reality. In fact, most people who support the transfer do so because they believe it is the only way to keep what we have.
 
Vanilla,

This concept that public lands don't create jobs and income is ridiculous. It is not a state land transfer issue or a federal government issue. There are resources being used on public lands right now under federal ownership and have been throughout the history of federal ownership. A sage grouse listing has the potential to change that. I guess if your one of those people who believe we should all be running around in loincloths then the argument makes sense.
 
wiley,

You said, " Guess I take a more simplistic approach.
Laws come and go, taxes come as well as do tax cuts.

American society is fickle and shifting with the winds.

BUT!! And it's a big damn BUT, once this land goes, it's gone forever
Not only for us but for our kids and grandkids.
Regardless of party affiliation once something is put in motion, like this
Public land theft, that can't be undone by American society and the people
They elect."

Unfortunately, the very same argument can be made against the federal government doing that very thing by restricting access. I guess if you're content with "public land" without access, maybe you have a point. But if you think your access to public land is not in danger from the federal government, then you are no smarter than the "fickle" people you referenced.
 

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