Landowner Tresspassing Arguments

BPKHunter · Dec 20, 2011

My son and friend started hunting a pond that clearly shows as being on public land by BLM maps and my GPS software, but bordering a private ranch. No signs at all or even a fence to show private boundry. On their fourth trip they took one of the boys father, a friend of mine, who is a F&G CO. Rancher shows up for the first time and tells the boys to get off, it's all private. Only after the guy get's verbally abusive to 20 year olds, does he go over. Dad says no problem they are leaving, only then does he mention being a CO. Guy tells him if he comes back he will have sheriff arrest him as in their county Shefiff's listen to owners not fish and game. Pretty bold!

My other friend is a peace officer and explains to me tresspass can only be cited when landowner directs, basically 100% citizens arrest. In Idaho we have different rules than say Wyo and Colo. Here landowner is required to post unless land is cultivated. You must leave when told so by landowner.

If you are just close to private party with no obvious markers, even if you are right would you have to defend yourself in court to win the argument? I hate to be bullied which is why I can't let this go, but I dont' want to be cited and go to court either. What is the best way to PROVE the land is public as the BLM Maps and my GPS software both clearly state they are not legally reliable.

llamapacker · Dec 20, 2011

Go to your county assessor's office and review the plot maps which show ownership. The tax man always knows who owns the property, trust me. You can usually make a copy of the relevant plot map for a very small fee (photcopy costs) and carry it with you. If the rancher is trying to run you off of public land, he could be cited for hunter harassment. Do your homework...
Bill

tailchasers · Dec 20, 2011

I would fight... You are the defendant. The Plaintiff needs to prove you were trespassing. But the information you gather you can use toward your defense and refute the plaintiff.

Good Luck!!!

"Courage is being scared to death but saddling
up anyway."

Cornhusker · Dec 20, 2011

Good advice above. I would fight that on principle alone, never have liked being bullied which it sounds like what this is. If I won I would then file a civil suit, for time consulting a lawyer, preparation of case, lost hours hunting and anything else I could think of. Most people will avoid a fight given the chance so maybe a conversation with him first telling him your intentions before the fight might work.

justr_86 · Dec 20, 2011

Go to the county assessors office, make sure your in the right. Dont get all gung ho and go right to court. Leave well enough alone. If you are in the right, go hunt it again and show him the map, if he wants to push it then call the sheriff and tickets will be written and then he will leave you alone...

Chances are when you have paper proof its public ground he will back off and leave you alone.

timothymarks · Dec 20, 2011

like they said I would make sure you are correct, even if its not poste you still have to leave if the landowner tells you too (assuming it is acually private land)

RELH · Dec 20, 2011

Go to the county assessors office as stated above. If trip there confirms it is public land, gather documents to support that finding.

Cornhusker gave you good advice to prevent any possible future confrontation. Cornhusker is a nice guy, I am a ornery old fart that likes to harpoon bullies.

I would go back and hunt the pond. when the rancher shows up and demands I leave, I will tell him that I am not leaving as it is public land. If he threatens arrest for trespassing, I would tell him to go for it. If he knows it is in fact public land, I doubt he will preform a citizen's arrest. He will instead call the local sheriff's dept and hope that they will run you off or arrest you.

when deputy gets there, show him your evidence that it is public land and if he is worth his salt, he will not arrest you and tell the rancher there is nothing he can do as there is no tresspass.

Now you can hope that the rancher is a A.H. who has gotten his way for many years and will show you who is the boss and makes a citizen arrest. Do not resist the arrest even if taken to jail. The deputy should refuse to take you into custody as he can onlytake you into custody if he feels it is a LEGAL arrest. Either way you get the best civil attorney in your area and sue the living tar out of the rancher for making a false citizen's arrest and you may get enough money to buy your own pond to hunt over.

Now the kicker, before you take any of my advice, MAKE DARN SURE YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT IT BEING PUBLIC PROPERTY THAT THE RANCHER HAS NO RIGHT TO KEEP OUT ANYONE TRESSPASSING or you are screwed and should have gone with Cornhusker's advice.

RELH

beavis14 · Dec 20, 2011

after you verify you are in the right go hunting again. then when he interfers with your hunt , prosecute him for interfering with a lawful hunt. which is on the idaho books, and does work.

Castnshoot · Dec 20, 2011

Some good advice given above. But be carefull when there is a property line that includes a body of water. I did not see a mention of what state you were in. Property line laws including water can differ from one state to the other. That rancher my know more about the law than you think.

If you think you can prove you are in the right, I would run it by the local law office before confronting the rancher.

In most places a simple trespass ticket will cost you about $75 to $100. Pretty much like getting a speeding ticket.

Darktimber · Dec 20, 2011

Yeah it is only a $100.00 ticket, but it is a 20 point license violation, which unless you can without a doubt prove you were un-intentionally trespassing, will revoke your fishing and hunting rights for 1-5 years. Trust me, I know all to well the laws regarding trespass. Had permission to hunt on property from a landowner. Turns out the landowner didn't own that section of river property. The rightful owner prosecuted. There is no sway in the 20 point reduction. Even though I had a written permission from the supposed landowner to be there, I still lost my points. Since the landowner was in the wrong though and not me, they did not suspend my hunting and fishing rights. Be very careful on how you handle this. The CO trespass laws suck. There was no fence or any other signs. Basically what the courts told me was that even if you have permission from a landowner, you better look at the surveys yourself to be sure. Who really does that? I believe that if these ranchers really are that anal about nobody being on their land, they better damn well fence it or sign it. Legally they don't have to though. The landowner that gave me permission was off on his property line by 20 feet and I paid for it dearly. Be careful.

BPKHunter · Dec 26, 2011

Thanks guys, I have been traveling due to the holidays and just today had the first chance to get back on here. For reference I am in Idaho. I think I am lucky because Idaho tresspass laws seem much friendlier to the hunter here, as it requires landowners to post unless it is cultivated land.

The common theme here is to use the Assessor's office as a tool, which I will do next week. Once I can get as much written verification, I will see if that will persuade my Fish and Game guy to send his CO from this area to visit this rancher. From there I will go hunt with documents in hand. If I can accomplish all this and the landowner harasses me and/or eventually asks a sheriff to arrest me via citizens arrest, believe me I will SUE his ass off. But I will confirm first to the best of my ability. Maybe there is a corner marker there, which would be the best thing, I think I even have a metal detector somewhere at home.

Thanks again and happy holidays guys!

Idahoron · Dec 26, 2011

If the CO was cowed down I would take the info straight to to the RCO. I would show him the papers and insist that HE personally go tell the rancher that your plan is to ticket him for hunter harassment. The RCO can handle this. Ron

givemtheshaft · Dec 26, 2011

BPK

This theme is all to often happening in Idaho....once you have found out if indeeed it is public ground through the accessor office and you go back and hunt and the rancher approaches you ...it becomes harrassment on his part which Idaho does have a very strong l;aw against hunter harrassment and YOU can file a citizens arrest against him!! It's a little discourageing that the F&G officer didnt stand up and represent this a little better for you...the law's are clear and the landowner does have to have private ground marked clearly so let him push it. There's way to many ranchers posting up BLM ground because they have the grazing allotment..again an illegal act and they all need to start getting drilled for it.

Gator · Dec 26, 2011

Please keep us all updated on this problem, Looking to see how it will be handled.Hope you find the right paperwork to keep hunting the pond.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]

destroyer350 · Dec 26, 2011

So what would be the fine for this rancher if he harasses you while hunting?

SanJuan · Dec 26, 2011

I would agree that going to the assessor's office is a good start but if the property line is close I would get a surveyor involved before I got too cocky.

The mountains, not the hills.

DRHORNHUNTER · Dec 26, 2011

Just curious. Do you Have to cross his private property to get to the pond?

SMELLYBUCK · Dec 26, 2011

You have been given great advice to get a plat map from your recorder. I have to identify legal boundaries all the time. A lot of people don't know what they own. BLM maps can be pretty good tool.

A plat map by itself isn't always easy to use in the field. I use plat maps in conjunction with www.mapcard.com. I think they have a few free trials. You will need to identify the Township, Range, and Section (often abreviated T, R, S) to get the correct plat. You can then go to www.mapcard.com, put in the T,R, &S. You can then print an aerial photo and/or a topographical photo that can be used as an additional reference.

I made up a map for my father-in-law. He was hunting a small public parcel next to his land. Another land owner tried to kick him out. He told the guy he doesn't know the boundaries and he quickly backed off.

Contact me if you need some help.

BrowningRage · Dec 27, 2011

Some good advice here guys. Nice to have so many friends with this good information.

I would definitely use the Assessor's Office. I would recommend this for anyone buying landowner tags as well. Had an interesting situation arise this year around some muzzy tags on private property-

My uncle was offered the chance to buy 2 landowner tags up in the Chalk Creek area. Great piece of land. The individual offering the tags receives several muzzy permits and a few archery permits (if I remember right) for the property he and his family owns. My uncle was very excited. Around Feb 2011, he was going to be buying the tags. Word reached my uncle that there was some trouble on the property in 2010. Upon investigation, it turned out the "landowner" had been stripped of his rights, by his family, to sell trespass permits on the property. They had had a falling out of some kind. He had been selling trespass permits to friends and neighbors for a decade or so, allowing them to hunt the property that he no longer had any rights to...

Needless to say, my uncle steered clear. But the implications of all those previous years could have been very bad, if the family felt a need to pursue everyone who had purchased the illegal trespass permits further.

So- always, always know who owns it, and where the lines are drawn...

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24

4100fps · Dec 28, 2011

In Montana, we have a "hunter harassment law". If he interrupted a lawful hunt he is breaking the law. So if he claimed your on his land, and was proven wrong, you press charges against him for "hunter harassment" If they know that can happen they don't bluff.

I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.

208JBB · Dec 28, 2011

I had a very similar situation to this happen when I was 16. A friend and I found a great place to hunt, and checked the maps to make sure that it was public land. We hunted it twice with great results. When we went back the third time we were chewed out by the guy who ran the ranch next to this land. We left and checked out maps, then asked my uncle to join us when we went back. It was great watching how my uncle handled the ranch hand and the owner of the ranch.

When the ranch hand came over and started swearing and threatening he calmly asked to talk to the owner. We all loaded up and headed to a house on the hill. When face to face with the owner my uncle just showed him the maps and asked why the owner didn't want the kids (us) hunting there. The owner explained why and then my uncle asked if he knew of another place that the kids could hunt that might be further from where his cattle were watering. The owner offered up a nice place all the way across the county that turned out to be twice as good.

That day I learned that if I take a genuine concern with what's upsetting the owner I might be able to make them happy and still get what I want.

destroyer350 · Dec 28, 2011

Now that there makes more sense than any comment made!!

Idahoron · Dec 28, 2011

If I knew I was right, I am more of the kind to flip off the guy cussing in my face and tell him to call a cop. Ron

sonofthesouth · Dec 29, 2011

How old was the guy and what condition did he appear to be in? These are very important questions, if he is old but he appears to be in decent physical health then you punch him it the nose. If he is old and great health then you punch him in the nose and gouge his eye. If the gentleman is middle aged and fair health then the punch gouge punch or kick I fine and if he is both middle age and grey health you would do the same but instead of picking either the punch or the kick you would hand out both e.g. Punch, gouge punch & kick.
For the final stage of response, if the man is young and can walk under his own power you are free to use any of the above mentioned attitude adjusters in any combination and number that you've the ability to achieve.

Note: Not everyone wishing to assign an attitude adjuster to the intended party(s), will have the nessesarily skill sets accomplish the task, this personal limitation is very important to be able to recognize and accept but doing so will probably be less painful then having to tell your wife/girl friend how you obtained the black eye.

Son

destroyer350 · Dec 30, 2011

LAST EDITED ON Dec-30-11 AT 11:03AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-30-11 AT 10:49?AM (MST)

LMAO! So does that treatment work the other way when some dumbass trespasses on posted or ag property without permission!!!! Especially when he says he didn't see a sign while their pick-up is parked right in front of one, has happened many times!!

IDdesertman · Dec 30, 2011

PBK, I am in Idaho also. I have a couple spots that I hunt that I access large chunks of public land through 1/4 mile wide pieces of BLM through private. Not only am I on BLM land at all times, but the private is also uncultivated and unposted(not that it matters in this case because I stay on the BLM land regardless). Both places I have had the bordering landowner try to bully me off of the land claiming it was private.

Here's how you deal with it. 1. Make 100% sure that you ARE INDEED on public land. 2. Tell them to F%*K off!

Not trying to sound like a tough guy here, but if you are on public land you have every legal right to be there without having some d!ck try to bully you off. On both occasions I encouraged them to call law enforcement but neither did it. All talk and no action, because they know damn well where the property line is. If a guy has owned and ranched on his property for his whole life, he knows damn well where it is.

BPKHunter · Jan 1, 2012

Many great responses since I last visited, some useful some hilarious.

First, let me reaffirm that I feel my RCO friend handled the situation very well. He had no PROOF with him, having relied on normally reliable 20 year olds. Now would any of you over 30 really start a fight over what a few hunt crazed 20 year old boys said without confirming it...

Second, I am very much the guy willing to get into a fight over an issue such as this and may even be inclined to instigate it if I know I am right and feel he is being a bully. Must admit I am glad my son's seem to be easier going than me though.

Third, not sure I get very far on a harassment charge until I have either 1) shown him proof that it is private first or 2) could prove he knew at the time it was indeed public. After the fact yes.

Fourth, as stated earlier my friend in law enforcement explained that the problem often in tresspassing cases is that the landowner is the one who technically arrests you(citizens arrest), which sucks because now you are locked into a legal battle, but the upside is if you are right you can then sue the landowner for FALSE ARREST. For me it would be more fun to get a CIVIL Judgement from the landowner than see him get a misdemeanor harassment charge....don't you!

At this point I still need to go and get my proof nailed down, starting at the Assessor's office for Owyhee County. I will also take my metal detector and see if I can find the corner pin. Once I due I will do the right thing and ask my RCO friend to have a F&G official visit with this landowner before I go back. But with the right stuff behind me I will be there often and ready to rumble. I hate a bully!

PS, NO there is not any public land crossed to get to this parcel. Nothing is posted or painted and the fencing simply appears like standard BLM fencing if anything. My RCO friend said it appeared that the landowner previously painted the access to the BLM off the public road, some 400 yards from his nearest property. A clear no-no.

WildlifeLawyer · Feb 15, 2012

Trespassing disputes are very prevalent and often times result in extremely contentious legal battles. In Colorado, landowners and accused trespassers spend thousands of dollars determining the exact boundaries of a parcel through litigation. The only way to guarantee that a parcel boundary is correct is to have the land professionally surveyed and even this can be contested in court. The best defense is being perfectly prepared before hunting on lands that might border private property and avoiding those ?gray? areas. It is also imperative that outdoorsmen understand exactly what constitutes trespass in their respective hunting grounds.

Colorado takes an unequivocal stance on trespassing. As a strict liability offense, a hunter, hiker or angler need not intend to trespass and in fact is as culpable as someone who crossed the private property boundary with full knowledge and intent to do so. Of course this seems counterintuitive to our notions of right and wrong, but the Statute simply requires an individual to be present on the property without the landowner?s permission. Similarly, if a hunter?s property crosses onto private land without the landowner?s permission, the hunter is again probably liable. For example, lion dogs that cut across a private parcel, an arrow that falls on private land or even more theoretically, a rock that the hunter threw across the parcel boundary could constitute trespassing. See Colorado Revised Statutes ? 18-4-504.

In Idaho, the intruder must willfully enter upon premises without permission and moreover, the land must be posted with ?No Trespassing? signs or the fence posts must be painted a bright orange indicating private property. See Idaho Revised Statutes ? 18-7008. It seems, BPKHunter, that if your observations are correct, you might have been on private property, but you may not have been properly notified and this could be a strong defense. Of course, further evaluation of the facts and the applicable law would be necessary.

The main thing to take away from this discussion is that being prepared is key. If you have any further questions about trespass or other issues affecting outdoorsman, don't hesitate to contact me or another Wildlife Lawyer at Feldmann Nagel LLC.
www.wildlifelawyer.com

Good Luck.

luvdawest · Feb 16, 2012

I don't post much on here but I thought I would jump in on this one. The BLM website has a complaint form exactly for a situation like this. Fill it out and send it in. If you are correct show up there next year and you'll be just fine. I had a very similar situation 2 years ago in Wyoming. Mine happened with an outfitter trying to run us off of BLM land that he claimed was private and he leased. He wasn't interested in looking at the maps or GPS. He just knew he was right. I had the form with me so I filled it out right there and dropped it off to the BLM that day. The issue was resolved and we continued hunting what really was BLM land. This past year we saw the outfitter without incident. I was told by the BLM this happens quite a bit.

TOPGUN · Feb 16, 2012

LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-12 AT 12:08PM (MST)[p]
Landowners and outfitters pull this garbage more often than you would think and you need to stick to your guns if you know you are legal. I have had three different confrontations in Wyoming involving two landowners and one outfitter who is now the biggest in the state. Every time I knew exactly where I was and had proof. One landowner backed off when I called his bluff. One landowner tried to press charges, which lead to my going to see the County Prosecutor. He would not issue a warrant for trespass when shown my map and GPS coordinates showing I was on BLM property. The outfitter situation was turned over to the local F&G Warden, who had received two similar complaints, and he did a followup investigation after I filed a formal written complaint. He contacted me later and told me the outfitter had been warned that any further hunter harrassment of that sort would lead to him being brought up for revocation of his outfitting business license. I have had no problem with any of them since that time when I stood up for my rights. Just know where you are at all times and be ready to fight for your rights to be on the public land that we all own! With the GPS equipment and landownership chips now available, there is no reason not to know where you can rightfully recreate or be bluffed off land that is ours.