R
RuttCrazed
Guest
When lapping a barrel, does it matter if you start the process from the muzzle towards the action or the action towards the muzzle?
Thanks,
Rut
Thanks,
Rut
RELH
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 17,483
Ruttcrazed;
I do not mean to be insulting, but if you have to ask, there is a good chance you may end ruining your barrel if you attempt to lap it. there is alot more involved then just knowing what end to start the lap.
you may want to look into "fire forming" lapping. It involves using lead bullets coated with lapping compound and firing them though the barrel at a greatly reduced velocity. There is less chance for a novice to ruin a barrel this way.
The kit is made by Neco and you can purchase it via Brownells. It comes in 22, 6mm, .30 cal. If you have another caliber, you can still use the kit and purchase your lead bullets elsewhere that matches your cal. barrel. The kit will give full instructions.
If you still intend to do it the old fashion way, try and locate a good book that will explain the intire procedure so you lessen the chance of ruining your barrel.
Good Luck;
RELH
I do not mean to be insulting, but if you have to ask, there is a good chance you may end ruining your barrel if you attempt to lap it. there is alot more involved then just knowing what end to start the lap.
you may want to look into "fire forming" lapping. It involves using lead bullets coated with lapping compound and firing them though the barrel at a greatly reduced velocity. There is less chance for a novice to ruin a barrel this way.
The kit is made by Neco and you can purchase it via Brownells. It comes in 22, 6mm, .30 cal. If you have another caliber, you can still use the kit and purchase your lead bullets elsewhere that matches your cal. barrel. The kit will give full instructions.
If you still intend to do it the old fashion way, try and locate a good book that will explain the intire procedure so you lessen the chance of ruining your barrel.
Good Luck;
RELH
C
Chef
Guest
Sound advice from RELH. FIre lapping is the way to go for a beginner. Accuracy should improve after the procedure. If still unsure, have a professional do it.
Chef
"I Love Animals...They're Delicious!"
Chef
"I Love Animals...They're Delicious!"
R
RANGERCON
Guest
David Tubbs makes a product that several friends have used and liked. Read the article.
http://www.jarheadtop.com/article_finalfinish.html
Good reading on that website too. Even if it is ran by a bunch of Jarheads...LOL
http://www.jarheadtop.com/article_finalfinish.html
Good reading on that website too. Even if it is ran by a bunch of Jarheads...LOL
R
RuttCrazed
Guest
I was just going to follow the information I got off of here from Bluelk:
Chapter 6
In these Chapters we have gotten to the point where you have gotten your rifle to shoot where you point it. What we will now do is modify the barrel so that hopefully your accuracy increases and your bullet will travel faster down the bore. What we are going to do is "lap" the barrel. This is a major undertaking so get the following items rounded up before you start: 2 new brass bore brushes, a hand full of patches (I cut mine from an old t-shirt and wash them when they get dirty), 2 or 3 bore swabs, a small can of automotive valve lapping compound (fine), bore solvent, a few cotton balls, and some teflon based lube. Make sure it is teflon based. Also, a little liquid refreshment for you helps.
If you have a vice take the barrel out of the rifle. If you don't have a vice leave the barrel in the rifle, but get a buddy, wife, or teenager to help hole the rifle. If you have a vice, open it and pad the jaws with about an inch or so of rags to cushion the barrel so that you don't scratch it. Close the vice tight enough to hold the barrel still. If you don't have a vice put a human on the butt end of the rifle and tell them to hold it tight. Put a bore brush on your ramrod, wrap it with a patch or two, and apply a liberal amount of lapping compound all around the perimeter of the brush. What you are going to do is run that brush/patch combination down the barrel and remove any manufacturing burrs or chatter marks from the edges and tops of the lands, and remove any high spots. If you want to see how bad the situation is before you start, put a couple cotton balls on a worm jag and run it through the bore. Make sure they're tight against the bore. Look down the bore and see how many cotton fibers are stuck in there. Even if you don't see any you still want to lap the barrel for reason that will become obvious.
Push the ramrod down the barrel and pull it out. THAT IS 1 STROKE. If you had any amount of cotton fibers stick in the barrel you are going to do 100 strokes. If you did not have ANY stick to the barrel you are going to do 50 strokes. After every 10 or 15 strokes change the patch and apply more lapping compound. After you have completed the required number of strokes clean the barrel THOROUGHLY with a bore brush because you will have lapping compound in the grooves. Put some solvent on a bore swab and clean the barrel with the same number of strokes as you lapped with. Use lots of solvent. After you have cleaned it run another cotton ball down the bore. Do you see any fibers? If you do, repeat the lapping process for another 50 strokes. Clean it again and run another cotton ball down the barrel. If you see any fibers repeat the lapping process for another 25 strokes. Okay, now you should be able to run a cotton ball down the barrel without having any fibers stick, and when you look down the barrel it should be super shiny. Make sure the barrel is as clean as is humanly possible.
A mistake that some people make is to mount their ramrod in a drill motor and spin the ramrod down the barrel. DON'T DO THIS or you will round off the edges of the lands and you will lose your gas check on the bullets. Just let the bore brush/patch combination rotate normally as you run it down the barrel. Change out the bore brush for a BORE SWAB and saturate the swab with the teflon lube. Saturate the swab. If you had the barrel in a vice take it out, and if you did not have a vice remove the barrel from the stock. Lay the barrel horizontally across a bucket or clean garbage can. Heat up a large pan of water almost to the boiling point. Pour the water over the entire length of the barrel and get it hot from end to end. While the barrel is still hot saturate the inside of the barrel with the teflon based lube. As the barrel cools it will suck the lube into the pores of the steel and seal it in. The more lube you use the better. During the cooling process rotate the barrel several times to make sure the teflon based lube isn't pooling up in just one area. LET THE BARREL COOL COMPLETELY. Take a clean bore swab and clean the excess lube out of the barrel after it has cooled. Grab some sunglasses and look down the barrel!
....but I definately don't want to ruin a new barrel.
Rut
Chapter 6
In these Chapters we have gotten to the point where you have gotten your rifle to shoot where you point it. What we will now do is modify the barrel so that hopefully your accuracy increases and your bullet will travel faster down the bore. What we are going to do is "lap" the barrel. This is a major undertaking so get the following items rounded up before you start: 2 new brass bore brushes, a hand full of patches (I cut mine from an old t-shirt and wash them when they get dirty), 2 or 3 bore swabs, a small can of automotive valve lapping compound (fine), bore solvent, a few cotton balls, and some teflon based lube. Make sure it is teflon based. Also, a little liquid refreshment for you helps.
If you have a vice take the barrel out of the rifle. If you don't have a vice leave the barrel in the rifle, but get a buddy, wife, or teenager to help hole the rifle. If you have a vice, open it and pad the jaws with about an inch or so of rags to cushion the barrel so that you don't scratch it. Close the vice tight enough to hold the barrel still. If you don't have a vice put a human on the butt end of the rifle and tell them to hold it tight. Put a bore brush on your ramrod, wrap it with a patch or two, and apply a liberal amount of lapping compound all around the perimeter of the brush. What you are going to do is run that brush/patch combination down the barrel and remove any manufacturing burrs or chatter marks from the edges and tops of the lands, and remove any high spots. If you want to see how bad the situation is before you start, put a couple cotton balls on a worm jag and run it through the bore. Make sure they're tight against the bore. Look down the bore and see how many cotton fibers are stuck in there. Even if you don't see any you still want to lap the barrel for reason that will become obvious.
Push the ramrod down the barrel and pull it out. THAT IS 1 STROKE. If you had any amount of cotton fibers stick in the barrel you are going to do 100 strokes. If you did not have ANY stick to the barrel you are going to do 50 strokes. After every 10 or 15 strokes change the patch and apply more lapping compound. After you have completed the required number of strokes clean the barrel THOROUGHLY with a bore brush because you will have lapping compound in the grooves. Put some solvent on a bore swab and clean the barrel with the same number of strokes as you lapped with. Use lots of solvent. After you have cleaned it run another cotton ball down the bore. Do you see any fibers? If you do, repeat the lapping process for another 50 strokes. Clean it again and run another cotton ball down the barrel. If you see any fibers repeat the lapping process for another 25 strokes. Okay, now you should be able to run a cotton ball down the barrel without having any fibers stick, and when you look down the barrel it should be super shiny. Make sure the barrel is as clean as is humanly possible.
A mistake that some people make is to mount their ramrod in a drill motor and spin the ramrod down the barrel. DON'T DO THIS or you will round off the edges of the lands and you will lose your gas check on the bullets. Just let the bore brush/patch combination rotate normally as you run it down the barrel. Change out the bore brush for a BORE SWAB and saturate the swab with the teflon lube. Saturate the swab. If you had the barrel in a vice take it out, and if you did not have a vice remove the barrel from the stock. Lay the barrel horizontally across a bucket or clean garbage can. Heat up a large pan of water almost to the boiling point. Pour the water over the entire length of the barrel and get it hot from end to end. While the barrel is still hot saturate the inside of the barrel with the teflon based lube. As the barrel cools it will suck the lube into the pores of the steel and seal it in. The more lube you use the better. During the cooling process rotate the barrel several times to make sure the teflon based lube isn't pooling up in just one area. LET THE BARREL COOL COMPLETELY. Take a clean bore swab and clean the excess lube out of the barrel after it has cooled. Grab some sunglasses and look down the barrel!
....but I definately don't want to ruin a new barrel.
Rut
R
RuttCrazed
Guest
Would I be better off just following a break-in procedure like this:
Break-in is done at the range, and takes a long morning or afternoon. A series of shots is fired, in combination with very thorough cleanings. The objective is to have successive bullets pass by bare steel, acting to wear down microscopic irregularities and impart a final polish to the barrel. The soft metal bullet jacket has an action much like the effect of a leather strop on a straight razor. Minor rugosities which rise above the base surface of the steel are wiped away.
In addition to the rifle and appropriate plain bullet ammunition the following will be needed:
* Padded cradle or vise to hold the rifle
* Cleaning rod guide
* High quality plastic coated cleaning rod
* Bronze bristle brush
* Plastic or boar bristle brush, or bore mop
* Spear or wrap around patch holder
* Ample supply of patches
* Powder solvent such as Hoppe's, Shooters Choice, etc.
* Copper solvent such as Sweet's 7.62, or abrasive cleaner such as JB Bore Paste
* Wiping rags
Before firing the first shot wipe out the barrel with powder solvent and patch dry. Some pretty strange things can get in a barrel during final assembly and shipping, let alone while on a display rack. Firing that first shot without cleaning risks damage to the bore.
Fire one, and only one, shot and clean well with powder solvent, bronze brush and patches. Always use an eye dropper or squeeze bottle to apply the solvent to the brush; dipping the brush in the bottle just contaminates your whole solvent supply. Wipe the rod between passes. Now clean again with copper solvent. Apply the copper solvent with the plastic or boar bristle brush, or with the mop- this stuff eats bronze brush bristles! Apply liberally, and allow to work for three to five minutes. Position the rifle with the muzzle low to keep solvent from draining into the action and bedding. I like to dry fire, shoot another gun, shoot the breeze, etc. while waiting.
The first patch after applying copper solvent will show a lovely azure blue color. This is made up mostly of copper compounds, the products of a chemical reaction between bullet jacket metals and the ammonia in the solvent. Patch dry, apply more copper solvent, wait, and patch again. Repeat this regime until no blue color shows on that first patch. The barrel must be cleaned down to bare steel.
Some custom barrel makers recommend that each shot be fired across clean, dry steel uncontaminated by powder fouling or jacket material. Alternatively, some well respected benchrest gunsmiths recommend a "wet" break-in, where the barrel is cleaned as described and a light coating of Rem Oil (tm), Kroil (tm) or a similar light bodied oil is applied before the next shot is fired. Both schools emphasize one shot at a time, and thorough cleaning. Some 'smiths and barrel makers are also endorsing use of the mild abrasive cleaners such as JB Bore Paste, Rem Clean or IOSSO.
Fire another single round, and clean again. Keep this up for at least ten rounds, fifteen would be better. After a few rounds you will find fewer doses of copper solvent are needed to get a clean patch. The break-in process is progressing. A Rocky Mountain Rifle Works (Mark Chanlynn) 30 caliber match barrel needed fewer doses after just five rounds; a Norinco SKS never did need fewer doses.
Finally, fire a series of three shot groups, cleaning as before. After three to five groups and cleanings the break-in process is complete. Shoot well, being confident that you have done your part to enhance barrel performance.
Rut
Break-in is done at the range, and takes a long morning or afternoon. A series of shots is fired, in combination with very thorough cleanings. The objective is to have successive bullets pass by bare steel, acting to wear down microscopic irregularities and impart a final polish to the barrel. The soft metal bullet jacket has an action much like the effect of a leather strop on a straight razor. Minor rugosities which rise above the base surface of the steel are wiped away.
In addition to the rifle and appropriate plain bullet ammunition the following will be needed:
* Padded cradle or vise to hold the rifle
* Cleaning rod guide
* High quality plastic coated cleaning rod
* Bronze bristle brush
* Plastic or boar bristle brush, or bore mop
* Spear or wrap around patch holder
* Ample supply of patches
* Powder solvent such as Hoppe's, Shooters Choice, etc.
* Copper solvent such as Sweet's 7.62, or abrasive cleaner such as JB Bore Paste
* Wiping rags
Before firing the first shot wipe out the barrel with powder solvent and patch dry. Some pretty strange things can get in a barrel during final assembly and shipping, let alone while on a display rack. Firing that first shot without cleaning risks damage to the bore.
Fire one, and only one, shot and clean well with powder solvent, bronze brush and patches. Always use an eye dropper or squeeze bottle to apply the solvent to the brush; dipping the brush in the bottle just contaminates your whole solvent supply. Wipe the rod between passes. Now clean again with copper solvent. Apply the copper solvent with the plastic or boar bristle brush, or with the mop- this stuff eats bronze brush bristles! Apply liberally, and allow to work for three to five minutes. Position the rifle with the muzzle low to keep solvent from draining into the action and bedding. I like to dry fire, shoot another gun, shoot the breeze, etc. while waiting.
The first patch after applying copper solvent will show a lovely azure blue color. This is made up mostly of copper compounds, the products of a chemical reaction between bullet jacket metals and the ammonia in the solvent. Patch dry, apply more copper solvent, wait, and patch again. Repeat this regime until no blue color shows on that first patch. The barrel must be cleaned down to bare steel.
Some custom barrel makers recommend that each shot be fired across clean, dry steel uncontaminated by powder fouling or jacket material. Alternatively, some well respected benchrest gunsmiths recommend a "wet" break-in, where the barrel is cleaned as described and a light coating of Rem Oil (tm), Kroil (tm) or a similar light bodied oil is applied before the next shot is fired. Both schools emphasize one shot at a time, and thorough cleaning. Some 'smiths and barrel makers are also endorsing use of the mild abrasive cleaners such as JB Bore Paste, Rem Clean or IOSSO.
Fire another single round, and clean again. Keep this up for at least ten rounds, fifteen would be better. After a few rounds you will find fewer doses of copper solvent are needed to get a clean patch. The break-in process is progressing. A Rocky Mountain Rifle Works (Mark Chanlynn) 30 caliber match barrel needed fewer doses after just five rounds; a Norinco SKS never did need fewer doses.
Finally, fire a series of three shot groups, cleaning as before. After three to five groups and cleanings the break-in process is complete. Shoot well, being confident that you have done your part to enhance barrel performance.
Rut
RELH
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 17,483
Ruttcrazed;
The article by Bluelk pertains to lapping a blackpowder muzzle loading rifle. the second article you listed concerning the breaking in procedure is for a modern rifle using copper jacket bullets.
From the added information you gave it appears that you have a new rifle and want to know if you need to lap the barrel to prevent copper jacket fouling due to excessive tool marks in the barrel land and grooves.
If you do have a new rifle that will be using copper jacket bullets, I would just follow the procedure listed in the second article for breaking in a new rifle. Just make sure that you do not already have a builtup of copper before starting the breakin. If you do have builtup, you must clean the barrel with a copper remover, Sweets is a good product along with several others, until all the copper is removed. If your patch comes out with a bluish-green color, you still have copper in the barrel.
The vast majority of the time there is no need to lap the barrel with abrasive compound. If you do lap the barrel, I would not use automotive valve compound because different makes do not have the same grit they call "Fine" Most of it is too abrasive and may leave the barrel rough. I normally start with a 400 grit compound and go several grades and end with a 1200 grit compound.
I think that breaking in the barrel will give you what you want and will help you to keep a accurate rifle due to less buildup of copper after the breakin. Just remember, if you have a poor barrel to begin with, no amount of lapping will make it into a super accurate barrel.
Good luck at the range;
RELH
The article by Bluelk pertains to lapping a blackpowder muzzle loading rifle. the second article you listed concerning the breaking in procedure is for a modern rifle using copper jacket bullets.
From the added information you gave it appears that you have a new rifle and want to know if you need to lap the barrel to prevent copper jacket fouling due to excessive tool marks in the barrel land and grooves.
If you do have a new rifle that will be using copper jacket bullets, I would just follow the procedure listed in the second article for breaking in a new rifle. Just make sure that you do not already have a builtup of copper before starting the breakin. If you do have builtup, you must clean the barrel with a copper remover, Sweets is a good product along with several others, until all the copper is removed. If your patch comes out with a bluish-green color, you still have copper in the barrel.
The vast majority of the time there is no need to lap the barrel with abrasive compound. If you do lap the barrel, I would not use automotive valve compound because different makes do not have the same grit they call "Fine" Most of it is too abrasive and may leave the barrel rough. I normally start with a 400 grit compound and go several grades and end with a 1200 grit compound.
I think that breaking in the barrel will give you what you want and will help you to keep a accurate rifle due to less buildup of copper after the breakin. Just remember, if you have a poor barrel to begin with, no amount of lapping will make it into a super accurate barrel.
Good luck at the range;
RELH
R
RuttCrazed
Guest
RELH,
I was refering to a muzzleloader, what do you think of Bluelk's method?
Rut
I was refering to a muzzleloader, what do you think of Bluelk's method?
Rut
RELH
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 17,483
Well, do you really need the barrel lapped. Has there been something going on that would indicate you have a rough barrel with excessive tool marks or a tight spot in the barrel. One way to tell is run a tight patch down a clean barrel. If the patch goes down without incountering a hard spot that requires more effort, I would think that your barrel does not have any tight or rough spots and possibly not need a lapping.
If you do suspect a tight spot or can see excessive tool marks, burrs with a bore scope, lapping will normaly take care of the problem. I have read several of Bluelk's messages, and I feel that he does have a very good knowledge of muzzle loaders and gives very good information.
I have worked a "little" on muzzle loaders, but my greater experience are on more modern firearms, but alot of the same principals apply for both.
For myself, if I used his guideline, I would make two changes. I would use a polish compound that I knew it was 400 grit to start with and would progress to 800 grit or 1000 grit to finish the lapping. I do not use a bore bush to lap with, I form a lead slug to the bore and coat it with abrasive compound so that it will do a better job of removing tight spots.
Bluelks formula is more for removing burrs, and excessive tool marks, his formula will work great for that purpose.
Since it is a muzzle loader, you normaly start from the muzzle end, just be careful to not let your cleaning rod or ram rod to rub on the muzzle crown or you may damage the crown and ruin your accuracy.
RELH
If you do suspect a tight spot or can see excessive tool marks, burrs with a bore scope, lapping will normaly take care of the problem. I have read several of Bluelk's messages, and I feel that he does have a very good knowledge of muzzle loaders and gives very good information.
I have worked a "little" on muzzle loaders, but my greater experience are on more modern firearms, but alot of the same principals apply for both.
For myself, if I used his guideline, I would make two changes. I would use a polish compound that I knew it was 400 grit to start with and would progress to 800 grit or 1000 grit to finish the lapping. I do not use a bore bush to lap with, I form a lead slug to the bore and coat it with abrasive compound so that it will do a better job of removing tight spots.
Bluelks formula is more for removing burrs, and excessive tool marks, his formula will work great for that purpose.
Since it is a muzzle loader, you normaly start from the muzzle end, just be careful to not let your cleaning rod or ram rod to rub on the muzzle crown or you may damage the crown and ruin your accuracy.
RELH
R
RuttCrazed
Guest
RELH,
Thank you very much for the information. There is nothing wrong with the barrel that I can see, should I follow a break-in procedure for it? I would imagine everything is perfectly fine with the barrel, but I don't want to decrease the accuracy by trying to improve it.
Thanks,
Rut
Thank you very much for the information. There is nothing wrong with the barrel that I can see, should I follow a break-in procedure for it? I would imagine everything is perfectly fine with the barrel, but I don't want to decrease the accuracy by trying to improve it.
Thanks,
Rut
R
RANGERCON
Guest
I have followed this thread since it started.
RELH has given solid advise on the subject IMO.
As usual......
RELH has given solid advise on the subject IMO.
As usual......
