Legislative Audit ***BGF***

Yeah that is some pretty damning stuff right there. Again involved in the future of our wildlife and looking for ways to improve it.

I'm sure the sportman of Utah would have been far better off to go ahead and have a doe hunt in that area. That would have give valuable data and info for the future!

Again, I'll ask, what other group is actually doing more to help our wildlife in Utah? PLEASE tell me and I'll join right up!!!
 
Zim,
You stated you where going to shoot or hunt deer that summered in Utah? Now you are saying you don't care if they are from UT or AZ? Why make the comment to begin with if you didn't really care where they were from? If you were not sure why did you make the comment to begin with....cause it sounded good? I've been listening to a few politians doing the same thing lately. Funny world we live in isn't it. Good luck on your AZ adventure!!!
 
Wait a second. Did the guy who wanted to complain about roosters not making baby pheasants just say we should be killing doe in the areas where the deer populations are falling???????

Klbzdad,

Please get out of the conservation business. For the sake of all things wild set your hate aside and take up the fight for education or military spending or anything for that matter that does not involve wild animals. Please and thank you.
 
Muley_73, to answer your question posted directly to me in post 91...

I do not have a personal vendetta against SFW and I do think they have been very beneficial to Utah's wildlife (BGF, not so much).

If you read my post 83 you will see that I said, "There have been some errors by multiple parties". The multiple parties that I am referring to is SFW and the State of Utah. I hold the State just as responsible for the lack of accountability of public funds as anybody. The moment that an organization/person/entity takes public funds, they open themselves up to a whole new level of review and scrutiny. This level of scrutiny has clearly not been met by SFW/BGF (as verified by an independent audit), though it appears on the BGF funding that change is imminent.

My issue with SFW is a little more complex, but would be completely devoided by SFW no longer accepting public funding, because at that point I would have no right to an opinion on the matter. Just to be clear, I consider the possession/sale of tags to be "public funding". I also consider the subsequent PR campaigns of SFW "donations" back to DWR as disingenuous.

----Here is an analogy... Imagine you give me your truck, which I sell for $20,000. I then keep some of the money for projects/administrative costs and return the remainder to you. Did I just donate the money to you? No, I just gave you a portion of what was already yours (money that I wouldn't have had without you giving me your truck to sell in the first place).----

I can understand the argument for these tags and the benefit to wildlife, especially the OIL animals that are being transplanted into new areas. This is great work by SFW. But it is not as philanthropic as they like to pretend.

To move onto Convention Tags... most people are hung up on the $5 fee, which I think is a valid argument (especially considering the RMEF offer to return all funds to wildlife).

But, it is also fair to question why this entity is given the opportunity (due solely to the selling of public tags) to raise money with no strings attached via the Convention. There are many income sources from the Convention each year which I think are pertinent to the discussion, such as advertising income, ticket sales, concession income, vender booth rentals, event/Gala tickets, silent auction income, etc... This money is never part of the discussion, but is only raised due to the opportunity and availability of public Convention Tags (which is why attendance at the show is required to enter the drawing). If the Convention exists due to the sale of public property/tags, shouldn't the people get a say in where the income from that event goes?

Let's now discuss the Stream Access Bill as this was the tipping point for me. When SFW argued against public access onto streams for hunters/fishermen... the agenda was crystal clear. I don't want to rehash the details here, but they can be easily found with a quick internet search.

------

SFW began with an excellent goal in mind and has done much good. The people behind SFW are great people, many of which I call my friends... but sadly I feel the organization has grown beyond the sum of the members into something larger and more powerful than many of us thought possible (see $800,000 cash funds with no accountability, as proof).

I don't want to attack/dismantle SFW. I simply want them to be held to the same level of account as their counterparts (RMEF is the best example). I pray they can right some perceived wrongs, exceed the scrutiny that the public deserves and work hand-in-hand with public sportsmen and groups like RMEF to make hunting in Utah the type of dream that we all hope it will be.

Grizzly
 
Cody-

There are many conservation groups out there that are doing good things. If you are asking which group to get behind today I would suggest RMEF and UWC. That is my personal opinion. Over the years, I have been a member of a number of these groups, including SFW, MDF, UWC, DU and NWTF.

The difference between you and me is that you appear to have an all or nothing approach. You apparently believe that since SFW is doing some good things we should give them a free pass and not address the glaring problems. I disagree. I believe that it is healthy to have sportsmen, the general public and the media keeping a close eye on the DWR and these groups so as to ensure that public resources are being properly utilized and protected. I appreciate these groups when they do something positive. For instance, I attended a RAC meeting earlier this year and found SFW advocating the same position as me with regard to the late rifle hunt on the Wasatch. I actually thanked them here on monstermuleys. I will not, however, turn a blind eye to obvious problems simply because a group has done something positive on another front. I believe that the system can be made better through public input and involvement.

I do not have to try to ?cast these groups and their deals in a bad light,? their actions speak for themselves. The recent audit is perfect evidence of this point. This is not about trying to "bring down an organization." These groups control their own destiny and could have done the right thing from day one. Why wait for the public to demand change?

Ideally, the DWR would be looking out for the interests of Utah sportsmen, and these groups would be self-policing to ensure that public resources are used appropriately to benefit conservation. The problem, however, is that the state and the DWR have become a little too cozy with some of these groups and as a result there are not appropriate checks and balances in the system. That is why I have made the decision to try to learn and understand the issues, and then educate the general public as to what is going on. It may ruffle some feathers, and it may not result in change overnight, but I believe it is important.

So in response to your question what do I intend to do to help wildlife? I will continue to support those groups that I believe are representing the average sportsmen, safeguarding public resources and promoting conservation. I will also continue to carefully follow these issues and get involved in an effort to effectuate change and improvements to the current system. And finally, I will continue to hunt, fish and enjoy the outdoors, and share those experiences with the next generation of sportsmen.

You and I obviously don't see eye to eye on these issues but I appreciate the discussion. Thanks for chatting.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
Goodness can we get a real answer out of anyone on here? Its like the SFW antis are all running for prom queen and are scared to upset the electorate.

A few threads back one of the UWC members posted on here that class warfare is exactly what is needed sometimes. Now he is obviously deranged but at least he has the rocks to actually say his thoughts instead of giving these generic protect you neck dodges that Hawkeye and Grizzly give.

Watching Hawkeye defend his position is like watching a lesbian say she isn't against men she just doesn't think they should have testicles.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-29-13 AT 02:35PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-29-13 AT 02:33?PM (MST)

>Wait a second. Did the
>guy who wanted to complain
>about roosters not making baby
>pheasants just say we should
>be killing doe in the
>areas where the deer populations
>are falling???????


Hey jackass, the biologists wanted 500 does removed from that winter range because at the current rate of decline and condition of that range, that wintering mule deer herd WILL disappear especially if there were a fire or other natural catastrophe causing irrepressible harm. Instead, political influence both locally and on the state level (neither of which you have an iota of knowledge of) forced the division to reduce that number to 150 tags. Then good ol' sfw comes up with a translocation project which we DID support for the data, Cody. But also because that would remove another 100 animals from the front making it a grand total of 252. Far short of the 500+ needed to allow that habitat to improve. So to give me crap about how wonderful sfw is about habitat in one sentence and then ask me to leave the business in another, has put both of you peas in a pod at the bottom of the barrel.

>Klbzdad,
>
>Please get out of the conservation
>business. For the sake
>of all things wild set
>your hate aside and take
>up the fight for education
>or military spending or anything
>for that matter that does
>not involve wild animals.
>Please and thank you.

If you're even slightly as ignorant as your bullcrap on MM demonstrates, I'm guessing some branches of the family tree grew together somewhere along the line to make you as smart as you are in real life. I don't think there has been a bigger hemorrhoid on any forum I personally read than you, Douchestate. How about you leave this forum and start your own?

Seams that every time specific examples are given to you vocal sfw jokers you feel the need to run out and cheer on the sfw leadership's lack of leadership with "they're at least doing something" or "name one other group doing more" Here's a couple, Cody....all those who buy tags who don't drink sfw coolaid do more for wildlife! RMEF does more in six months with more efficiency and accountability to its members than sfw AND without running out and patting themselves on the back or taking credit for work they DIDN'T do in two decades. How about all the disenfranchised former members of sfw and those who do not chose to join for the reasons so many of us point out? They far outnumber the membership of sfw. So I'm glad, Cody, that you feel you are part of a bigger thing than yourself and I don't read in your posts where you're anything like those you defend, in fact you're probably a good dude just like the majority of people in sfw who have been brainwashed. I don't think your dad is a bad egg either. However, I do think a change in the guard at sfw and a positive change in how our resources and money are utilized does nothing but quiet the roar of naysayers on either side and focuses dollars, manpower, and other resources to where it all belongs. Nobody can argue that if sfw became more inclusive, accountable, and honest in their intentions that people such as myself wouldn't have anything to ##### about except for dipshhits from Texas who don't have any other purpose in life than to grind at good people's nerves online. Follow this link and read about Randy Newberg's (BigFin) experiences at this year's expo: Randy is far smarter than myself and articulates exactly my stance on all things sfw. None of which include eliminating them altogether.

Here ya go:
http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=249798



"When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others. It is the same when you are stupid"
 
I would love nothing more than to watch Tripstate and Hawkeye hash it out in a debate in person in front of a group of people. I might need some popcorn for that A$$ kicking. But I wont clean up the mess left behind:)
 
Hey brainiac,

You do realize there is a lot more to habitat improvement than removing doe don't you????? Wait I am sorry. You don't.

As for my family tree branches you might take some time and look that up. I will admit that I am probably the dumbest out of the gene pool but the rest of my siblings and ancestors have brains in which only an exceptionally small percentage of the population compare and they are documented. By the way I hold a degree in Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences. Do you?

"Nobody can argue that if sfw became more inclusive, accountable, and honest in their intentions that people such as myself wouldn't have anything to ##### about except for dipshhits from Texas who don't have any other purpose in life than to grind at good people's nerves online."

Lastly you type this gem to show your ego holds no bounds. You dream about me hoping that the only life I have is to argue with self righteous deer Nazis on an internet forum. Again do some research and you will find out where my priorities are. I don't attack your gene pool. I don't come and claim to know everything about your industry and job. Your last tantrum shows you really do need to go find some other cause than this. You really have severed touch with reality.
 
Grizzly and Hawkeye,

+100 Well put by the both of you.

"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-29-13 AT 03:04PM (MST)[p]Robiland,

How old are you? You really don't know what debate is do you.


Lets take this a direction. Could Klzbdad, Grizzly, and Robiland please state their profession and level of education.
 
I don't have an ego, but I do have skin in the game here in UTAH. I don't dream of anything involving you personally. And the only time, Ben, that you become a thought for me at all is when I read your garbage here on MM. I have lost touch with reality because the reality is, you don't matter one damned bit when it comes to conservation in Utah nor do you matter when it comes to any other wildlife issue in Utah. Do I have the same degree as you? Nope, I decided to focus my bachelors degree where it would be most effective and THAT will manifest itself in due time. I work with a guy who holds an associates degree in psychology but he can't spell and has an IQ of about 75, if I remember properly, proving anyone can get a degree. I'll agree, my tantrum was a waste of time on someone I don't know but am convinced isn't worth a tantrum to begin with. Back to ignoring you. Life was better then.

"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-29-13 AT 03:18PM (MST)[p]This discussion has nothing to do with education or professions. It is simply matter of what is right and wrong. You don't have to be the legislative auditor for the State of Utah or even a CPA for that matter to know what occurred with the $800,000 in wolf money was not right. I have met plenty of good, honest, average-joe sportsmen over the last several years that understand that the system is broke and are frustrated. Your comments are offensive to all spsortsmen. Moreover, your comments about lesbians with testicles highlight your own level of edcuation and experience.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
Muley73, I stated that purely for the irony involved. Perhaps you'd like to swap the word "ironic" for "funny"? It's a totally meaningless sidebar. AZHB2072 is dead, and a constituent group is now in place to prevent such another rape attempt.

*********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
Yep, Muley73 you are SFW through and through, always finding excuses to not answer the tough questions.

Just like when the Donny and Newberg were going to have that meeting/debate, when the Donny figured out he was going to have his a$$ handed to him, he took his ball and went home. Never to be seen or heard from again on MM since.

Douchstate, did you notice how Muley73 didn't answer the questions. Idiot.


Douchstate, to answer your question, Utah would do what all the other 49 states are doing that don't have the SFW virus. You and M73 make it sound like if SFW went away all the wildlife in Utah would go extinct and that there are animals in Utah to hunt solely because of SFW. Give me a break.

Douchstate, are there any wildlife issues in TexASS that I should know about? You know, so I could stick my nose in business that doesn't concern me and I could post mindless drivel on the internet about things that I know nothing about, like you.
 
"This discussion has nothing to do with education or professions."

Just because you say so doesn't make it so. By the way I didn't ask you. Let those other boys put on their big boy pants and answer their own questions.

"It is simply matter of what is right and wrong."

No it isn't. You as a lawyer should know that since nothing criminal has happened here "right and wrong" are very open to interpretation, and that ain't simple.

" You don't have to be the legislative auditor for the State of Utah or even a CPA for that matter to know what occurred with the $800,000 in wolf money was not right."

Really the auditor didn't say it wasn't "right". Seems they may not agree with you.

" I have met plenty of good, honest, average-joe sportsmen over the last several years that understand that the system is broke and are frustrated."

Hell, how many times have I told you that?

" Your comments are offensive to all spsortsmen."

Really you speak for all sportsmen now???? Give your ego a rest. I know plenty of sportsmen that agree with me. You and the four or five members of the hate SFW club don't speak for all sportsmen.


"Moreover, your comments about lesbians with testicles highlight your own level of edcuation and experience."

Go back and read. I said nothing about "lesbians with testicles". By the way you misspelled education. Normally spelling is not important to me on these forums but that one kind of lets the air out of your raft.
 
Your dodging. Step up, be a man, and just tell us your education background and your profession. You shouldn't be ashamed of it. I guarantee and give my word I will not make fun of you and shame on anyone here that does.
 
"Douchstate, did you notice how Muley73 didn't answer the questions. Idiot."

I answered for me. Muley73 is a big boy and he can deal with you. You started trying to BS people into thinking I haven't answered something that I already have.


"Douchstate, to answer your question, Utah would do what all the other 49 states are doing that don't have the SFW virus."

And what are the other 49 states doing.

"You and M73 make it sound like if SFW went away all the wildlife in Utah would go extinct and that there are animals in Utah to hunt solely because of SFW. Give me a break."

I have never said anything of the sort. If you can quote me on that I will leave these forums and never type here again. Until then you will always be full of crap.

"Douchstate, are there any wildlife issues in TexASS that I should know about?"

Sure. Lots of them. Wildlife here is very dynamic and always in need of help and tweaking. Some issues are major and complex and some not so much.

" You know, so I could stick my nose in business that doesn't concern me and I could post mindless drivel on the internet about things that I know nothing about, like you."

Please get involved in Texas wildlife issues. I welcome it. We are open for business here and we welcome all people to spend money here and since all people are potential customers we welcome your input. Texas wildlife does concern you.
 
Trip-

I dont know what this has to do with ANYTHING, my age and edumication and profession. But Ill play this game. There is a good chance I will surprise you a bit, maybe not. But here it goes.....

I am 36. I have 2 college degrees, almost finished the 3rd but quit 1 year short. That was for accounting, but my dad passed away and at the age of 25, I took over the family business. Which was the plan. I own a restaurant, fast food. I manage 30 employees. I do over 1 million in sales per year. My store over the last 10 years has been given an award that covers over 80 stores, and that award is called the ACE award. Basically it says our store is one of the cleanest, most efficient, excellent service stores. Weve been top 3 over the last 10 years.

Was this what you are looking for tripster? I can go on about personal accomplishments I have earned. like 1st team all state football player for 5A in Utah and a state champion, Eagle Scout, Honor rolls...... and so on. Do you need my wifes info also?
Let me know!
 
I have asked what groups do more for the wildlife in Utah than what the SFW has done in the past 20 years. You have thrown out reasons why I should not trust or like the SFW. You have called me names and questioned my family. You have told me that RMEF and the UWC are great organizations. I appreciate all of that......however the question still stands. What group has done more for wildlife in Utah in the past 20 years than SFW. It is NOT the RMEF OR UWC , thats just a fact. So I'm still waiting for and answer, the truth is there is no other group. The SFW IS THE TOPS. Whether you all like it or not. Doesn't mean you have to like or agree with them but it doesn't change the facts.
 
Shotgun,
As far at the wolf issue. I'll admit that I have not been as involved with BGF. I do know that there have been battles between the groups involved and in the end the wolves have been delisted. I have been happy overall with SFW abd thus give support to BGF. I've never claimed either group was perfect just as I know that no group is perfect. That an absolute honest answer to you question. Nothing to do with my dad be a supporter of SFW or my brother being chosen to go to Alaska for his service in Iraq. Cut it up an dice it anyway you want. I'm ok with my stance and answer.
 
Cody-

I have never asked you to turn your back on SFW or BGF. You should support whatever group you want. But how about acknowledging the problems. I have not heard you offer any excuses or justifications for the problems identified by the state audit. The truth is there is no excuse for what occurred.

Over the last two years, I have spoken with many good people who are members of SFW. My pitch to them is that as members they should require accountability from the group's leadership. If you truly believe SFW/BGF is the best thing going then get involved and make sure they are doing things the right way. If they don't get their house in order then it is just a matter of time before their support will crumble.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
Hawkeye,
My questioning of certain things with the SFW goes way way way back before you ever raised an eyebrow. When I have had a question I just ask directly. I have at times been satisfied with the answer and at times not agreed or completely supported the answer. But overall I still support. I remember what it was like before the SFW. I have literally been raised at wildlife meetings. I look at the overall big picture and I still support. I have seen where the dislike for SFW has come from. It's usually due to a personal falling out. Then a personal crusade against a group because that individual feels they have been wronged. Like I have stated before and I'll state again. Overall I support.
 
Overall I support
probably how a lot of people feel but this unconditional giving of money needs to stop. The audit speaks loudly to a lot of people.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Oct-29-13
>AT 10:20?PM (MST)
>
>I guess we will see.
>I've yet to see the
>silver bullet.

Cody,

People are trying to kindly explain to you that there is NO silver bullet nor do any of us what one fired off at sfw or bgf. I just wasted four hours of my life going through and matching financials from RMEF and sfw. They are NOT the same. Further, I can get any financial information from RMEF without a GRAMA but so far, every request I've ever sent to sfw has been ignored. Its quite simple, disclose all information pertaining to tax payer assets and monies as it is the Utah taxpayer's right to know. You'd agree that anytime the government is involved in private industry, its a recipe for gluttony on both sides. No? I could care less if sfw gets private donation checks for $1,000,000.00!!!!! But, if they auction off a tag or are given that same amount from the public trust, then why not accurately account for every dime of it? I have yet to read even just one substantive facts to justify how sfw and bgf is managed.

By the way, I apologized to you and your dad for picking on him. I have much respect for anyone with deep passion to help wildlife. I believe that is what most of us have in common no matter what acronym is on our hats. You sir, have a great evening.


"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 
"I can get any financial information from RMEF without a GRAMA"

Please supply me with all bank statements and copies of check transactions for the month of January 2013 for RMEF.
 
>Shotgun,
>As far at the wolf issue.
> I'll admit that I
>have not been as involved
>with BGF. I do
>know that there have been
>battles between the groups involved
>and in the end the
>wolves have been delisted.
>I have been happy overall
>with SFW abd thus give
>support to BGF. I've
>never claimed either group was
>perfect just as I know
>that no group is perfect.
> That an absolute honest
>answer to you question.
>Nothing to do with my
>dad be a supporter of
>SFW or my brother being
>chosen to go to Alaska
>for his service in Iraq.
> Cut it up an
>dice it anyway you want.
> I'm ok with my
>stance and answer.


Glad you're ok with your answer, I'm not. Like always, you didn't answer the questions.
Yes, The wolves got delisted no thanks to BGF, but they sure were quick to take credit for something they had nothing to do with.
 
Muley_73 said: "When I have had a question I just ask directly. I have at times been satisfied with the answer and at times not agreed or completely supported the answer."

Question: Did you get an answer or explanation regarding the problems identified in the audit? If so, please share it with the rest of us. I have tried to ask directly without any success.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
Tristate (and others who may have an opinion different than the majority),

Those of us who have a problem with BGF, this audit, SFW and the DWR have laid out our position here many times. With an audit as damning as this one, what is your argument here? What is your position? You've sat back and lobbed criticism and attacks on those of us standing up for this, yet I don't think I've seen a post where you've clarified your position instead of attacking others for theirs. Is it possible for you to summarize in a paragraph or so what your problem is with the issue?

For me it's pretty cut and dried.

From the DWR's website, their "mission is to serve the people of Utah as trustee and guardian of the state's wildlife." As a resident, a sportsman, a voter and a taxpayer, it is my responsibility to see that they live up to that mission statement.

From the first post on this thread, quoting the link to the article in the Tribune: "Utah wildlife officials failed to safeguard taxpayer dollars while contracting with private anti-wolf organizations that work to sway federal policy, according to a legislative audit released Tuesday."

Does that seem congruent to anybody?

This is a flat out failure on the part of the DWR and the Utah Department of Natural Resources. Period.

It's also an indictment on BGF and, by association, SFW. We've seen the same song and dance many times before.

Public resource --> $$$ --> Private organization. Ok, that's fine. But show us what you did with it. Show us why we should be giving your our money and/or tags. Prove to us that you're doing what you say you're doing and not putting the money in your pocket. The DWR should be ashamed and embarrassed that they didn't require such accounting in the first place.

With the way the DWR is tied into these groups it is easy to look at the situation and guess that there's back room deals and funny business going down. Millions of dollars are moving from the public's pocket's into the coffers of private orgs with NO STRINGS ATTACHED. Who wouldn't want to be part of that business model? You're given hundreds of thousands of dollars. Your only requirement is to go fight wolves. Cha-ching.

If you're clean, show us. If there's no monkey business, prove it. The burden of proof lies on the state here, and we should demand it.

So again, Tristate Cody, please summarize your position. Let's put it on record where you stand.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-30-13 AT 11:13AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-30-13 AT 11:11?AM (MST)

shotgun,
I was never really concerned if you liked my answer or not. So I guess we are even.

Hawkeye,
I have not dove into the BGF audit like you. I have asked a few questions I have attended a few meetings and I have been satisfied. Like I have stated before "I" have been satisfied. If you have not then so be it. From looking at the big picture "I" am satisfied. I am not the voice for the SFW I am only a memeber that supports them.

dryfly,
Majority??? This comment always cracks me up. Dont live in such a bubble that because a few of you agree on the internet it means you are in the majority. The truth is the MAJORITY could really care less. Otherwise you would see more involvement overall.
 
Muley, I won't disagree. I wish the majority of sportsmen cared enough to do something. Poorly worded. How about the majority of sportsmen who are aware of this audit? I think that's accurate.

Vi Et Armis Invictus Maneo
 
Yep, you and SFW/BGF are one in the same alright. I knew I would never get a straight answer from you anyway.

Does the Donny, being the slimball politician that he is, coach all you SFW sheep the finer points on how not to answer a question?
 
>dryfly,
>Majority??? This comment always cracks
>me up. Dont live
>in such a bubble that
>because a few of you
>agree on the internet it
>means you are in the
>majority. The truth is
>the MAJORITY could really care
>less. Otherwise you would
>see more involvement overall.

Cody,

I read somewhere that the actual membership roll for sfw in Utah was around 5,000 (yes, that is an internal number I chose to share but not disclose my source....because I'm not required to). So, with that number in mind, here is the RMEF snapshot showing active membership in Utah.

http://www.rmef.org/Utah.aspx

I can tell you that the number of members grows for UWC as well and nationally, RMEF raises $80,000,000.00 and operates in the black year after year because of sound management and principles. Membership growth is also indicative of a company that have a positive public profile. When people like your business, they will come there. If they don't, they find alternatives. I don't hesitate every year to cut that $120.00 check to RMEF. I used to support MDF and still support Mike Laughter in Utah but I don't care for Miles Moretti. However, MDF recognizes that public perception is powerful and can have a negative effect on the cash flow if it is negative so they are DOING what members and sportsmen have asked and begun the process of being transparent. Another bonus for RMEF? 100% return on ANY tag auctioned or sold that came from the public trust. SCI's work in the states is good too, especially legislatively. I'm not a member because I don't agree with their world standards for hunting conservation (Africa).

Shotgun has asked some pretty simple questions, Cody. Answer one or two of them and stop imagining that you're in the majority of sportsmen in Utah. there are some tens of thousands of hunters in our state and only 5000 active members in sfw. By no means are you in the majority.


"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 
Where did I ever state I was in the majority??? I stated that to claim any group is in the majority is not correct! Go back re read what I posted before you say I'm claiming something. The MAJORITY could care less about internal squabbling. They are neither informed completely or involved.....by choice. They generally go with the flow.
 
Klbzdad, It will be interesting to see if RMEF does return all the money back on the tags that they sell. In the past they have kept their 10% but said that they would change this year. That is what they have done with the tags in the past with Utah. Time will tell. Hope that you are right.
 
>Where did I ever state I
>was in the majority???
>I stated that to claim
>any group is in the
>majority is not correct!
>Go back re read what
>I posted before you say
>I'm claiming something. The
>MAJORITY could care less about
>internal squabbling. They are
>neither informed completely or involved.....by
>choice. They generally go
>with the flow.

I went back and read your posts. Fair enough. You didn't come right out and say it but it would be easy to deduce that you insinuated that a "couple" of us are outnumbered. I would agree we are all outnumbered by the those with a huge case of apathy.

What you fail to see is that people who matter are now paying attention. Thus, an audit. I happen to know that the Gubener is paying attention too.




"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 
Do yall realize how insanely stupid yall have become? Zealots would be a gross understatement here. two guys are claiming that SFW haters are the majority of sportsmen because the SFW only has five thousand members?????? Does that constitute logic where you are from? Did you make it to high school? Then Hawkeye is demanding to know what answers SFW gave a guy for a question Hawkeye doesn't even know if it was asked or not??????? Then there is one more guy pissed that they took a veteran on a fishing trip???????? What kind of mindless rabid animals have yall become. You really need to step away from your computers and go outside.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-31-13 AT 09:57AM (MST)[p]Do you realize how stupid you sound????? Can you read???? Did you make it past 3rd grade??????? If you could actually read you would know I wasn't pissed SFW sent a vet on a fishing trip but only asked how this particular vet was chosen to go on said trip. Seeing how this particular vet is the son of one of SFWs founders. Yea no conflict of interest there. Idiot.

Seeing how this particular vet is Muley73s brother and knowing who muley73s daddy is, you would think he would know the answer to that question, especially since he's been asked it countless times for the past few years on this forum and others. Long before some two bit hack of a TexASS taxidermist ever came on the scene and started spewing mindless drivel out his piehole.

And if SFW could make their own money instead of depending on cashing WELFARE checks from taxpayers and public resources I wouldn't give a rats a$$ who they sent on fishing trips or that they tried to keep the wolf from being delisted.
 
^^^^^THIS^^^^^ +1

"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 
shotgun,

This is an absolute perfect example of you being out of your mind. My dad was no where near being one of the founders of the SFW. He was heavily involved in the Sevier Wildlife Federation when the SFW started to form and became a group. He was never ever involved in the founding of the organization. In fact he has never been more than a vocal member, volunteer, that puts in time with an organization he supports. In fact I am pretty sure he did not even know who Don Peay was before the SFW called out sportsman to meet at the Capital. So either you were talking to something you have no idea about or you are flat out lying. As far as how my brother was chosen to go on a fishing trip I have no idea. I have no idea how the many many many other veterens have been choosen to go on these hunts and trips. Seems like a wonderful program whether my brother went or not but feel free to continue to question it. All I know is the SFW contacted him after he returned from service and said they would like to send him and another soldier on a fishing trip. I do know that the other soldier and his family are not even members of the SFW as far as I am aware. If you'd like I could have my brother give him a call and see if he is some how related to the SFW or if he has political or business connections with the SFW. Hell maybe his uncle founded the Sierra Club? I'll tell you what, why dont you come up with a good story as to why he was picked to go on the trip, then post it up and you and the other SFW haters can jump up and down and scream with excitement like you have just busted open a fresh coconut.

klbzdad,
You see, you +1 because somebody throws out something negative and it's not even true. In doing so you hurt you own credibility and look the fool right along with shotgun. Feel free to continue to do so if you like. But it ought to at least make you think before you jump right in and agree just because an internet clown posts something.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-31-13 AT 11:52AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-31-13 AT 11:49?AM (MST)

I know you're dad isn't a founding member of sfw. That's not what I'm agreeing to and I personally could care less who sent your brother fishing, he earned it by serving our nation. To some, the timing is suspect. For me, I thank him for his service.

What I was agreeing with is that if sfw was going to use its own funds from membership dues, donations, banquet landowner tags donated for fundraising, or other private income, they can do with it what they please. Don't give a rats ass where they spend their own money. BUT they did NOT donate 1 million dollars to the division, that money is REQUIRED to come back to the division and others here have offered to do the expo with 100 percent return on both convention and conservation tags. I've done a couple of expos for different industry and I know what the money potential is there from sponsorship, booth space, and many other cash flow streams. They could do it without the tags and still raise PRIVATE funds to use as they see fit. The tags are an extra draw and selling point to those potential cash cows. The money given to sfw and bgf for "wolf issues" is senseless and a waste of money but taxpayers in UTAH are paying the tab and I, being one of them, want to know where they are spending taxpayer money. Same with the public trust that all of us own. Even if ONE taxpayer wants to be able to see where that money goes, shouldn't they have that right? THAT is what I was agreeing to and will so +10000000000000000

And stop with the sfw haters bullcrap. Nobody really hates the organization. I've never said I hate it. I don't care for the leadership or the direction that sfw has taken concerning money that ISN'T theirs but still taking credit for work they didn't do. Would you like for me to post the wolf fight timeline and the facts again? Got hundreds of examples.....facts are more credible than you or I and any twenty members of this forum. Just say the word.


"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 
Wow. You've been dodging that question for years and your answer is "I have no idea". Do you know anything about SFW at all? Because every time you try to answer a question it's I don't know, I'm not sure or I have no idea. You must be one of those do what you're told, don't ask questions and keep your mouth shut type of guys. SFW really likes those types.

So your dad isn't a founder of SFW, but he is one of the good ole boys and you know it.
 
I read your idiot post. You are pissed that a vet got taken fishing by SFW. There is no conflict of interest you jack wagon. SFW gave something away to vet period and expected nothing from him in return. If a soldier fights for your liberty and expects nothing in return but he keeps his liberty also would you consider that a conflict of interest???? I bet you would, boy. I don't give a damn if he is the son of an SFW head who is married to the Head of the DNR and his aunt owns the fishing charter, TAKE THE MAN FISHING AND SHOTGUN NEEDS TO SHUT HIS JEALOUS PUKE SPEWING HOLE! Only a soulless hateful piece of human filth would want to scrutinize a gift to a veteran. Shame on you shotgun. I bet your daddy is proud.
 
I would tell klbzdad to stick that in his pipe and smoke it but something that belongs to shotgun is in the way.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-31-13 AT 01:55PM (MST)[p]shotgun,
Swing and a miss. I'm sorry that my answers don't satisfy you. Like I stated before I have asked questions and I was satisfied with answers I got. The answers I got were for me, the fact that I don't care to elaborate or share seems to bother you and the truth is that doesn't bother me. You lie and then just brush it off. You claim you want all the answers and truth yet you make up lies and untruths yourself. Hopefully others can see that you are willing to make up things and lie to try and prove a point. Keep up the good work my friend. In your mind you're winning and thats what counts...right!

klbzdad,
I apolozie for not realizing the breakdown of your +1. Thank you for breaking it down to specifics and clarifying.
 
I guess I'm a little late on this Tristate as I've been helping some friends on some hunts. I moved from TX to Utah when I was 15. I knew less than 10 kids who had the opportunity to big game hunt before I moved. SFW etal. are only needed to remove general hunters from states that still have general hunting opportunities. Of course they aren't in TX.

I like Texas, but I'm in no hurry to move back - largely because of the hunting.
 
I said it 18 years ago and I'll say it right now.

SFW is bad for hunters and wildlife.

Their influence, their lobbying may win a few
Battles but look at the war since 1994. What
Have we got besides turkey's??

Elk?? Spike only and taking hunters out of the
Field will grow a lot of elk. Also kill a lot of cows
Cause big bull tags bring more at auction than a
Cow tag. 73 how does it feel knowing that your
Children face a mathematic impossibility of EVER
Having the opportunity of to hunt on a LE elk??

Deer?? Better now than in 94?? Can't wait for this
Answer.

People like you,73, your dad and Don have convinced
Some in power that hunters want a 170" buck more
Than they want time actually hunting. You can raise all
The money on God's green Earth and Mother Nature still
Won't call off drought disease and cold / snow. But
Yet you're convinced this is the way. I'll ask again, how's
All of that hunter sacrifice and money worked out in the
Last 19 years for deer in Utah??

Here is the inevitable outcome, elk herds are one
Natural mishap from a crash. You can't keep killing
Cows. Hunters that are FORCED to sit home or hunt
Out of state will do that till finally you lose a generation
Of hunters. Then you lose your defense of hunting and
Land sales / leases will follow.

My hope is that the public employees at the DWR
Actually grow a pair and represent their customers
Not just the ones connected or with deep pockets.

How about it Sheehan, Styler?? You gonna do your jobs
Or continue to kick the can down the road??

Same question for you hunters, you gonna get back what
Is constitutionally yours or are you happy being the
##### of special interests??






"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
wileywapati No question that the deer population has been going down hill in the past years. This was the first year that it looks like things may be turning. Will not know for years. Question for you. What do you propose the State does with the elk. I would like to know your thoughts.
 
Is Tardstate a member of Sportsmen Feching Wildlife?

Yes/no, why or why not?

Did indulge the ill begotten texas 'tard a bit and checked out his website...them hideous cartoon African lions make for some decent "pity" type comedy; actually, pretty good laughs all around

Taxidermist? reality check...hack job butcher? Oh golly!

Silly is as silly does I guess :)

Adam
 
"People like you,73, your dad and Don have convinced
Some in power that hunters want a 170" buck more
Than they want time actually hunting."


Some do. Is that so hard to believe. I am not saying they are the majority but I am not saying you are the majority either.

"You can't keep killing
Cows."


Yes you can.

"Same question for you hunters, you gonna get back what
Is constitutionally yours or are you happy being the
##### of special interests??"

What is "yours", and what do you think got taken away, and by whom?
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-01-13 AT 06:26AM (MST)[p]"Is Tardstate a member of Sportsmen Feching Wildlife?

Yes/no, why or why not? "

Nope. I choose to spend my money with other organizations. Not saying SFW is bad and not saying they are good. I am also not going to say that I will never be a member.

"Did indulge the ill begotten texas 'tard a bit and checked out his website...them hideous cartoon African lions make for some decent "pity" type comedy; actually, pretty good laughs all around"

Wow I feel so unprepared. I don't have anything bad to say about your hard work. How old are you boy?

"Taxidermist? reality check...hack job butcher? Oh golly!

Silly is as silly does I guess"

Well the hack job butcher won first place in Gameheads this year and the Master's division People's choice award at the TTAI convention. The same gamehead won first at Nationals also and the Challenge of the art award. I guess I'll keep on being a hack job butcher it seems to be feeding three kids and putting smiles on customer faces. The only time I'll worry about whether greatwestern likes my taxidermy is the day he is paying me to do it. Until then enjoy the pic of another cartoon lion.

mlmhp5.jpg
 
Tritip, I can tell you that the ratios are
80% opportunity 20% trophy according to
Multiple questions on the last mule deer
Hunter survey.

Current management is just the opposite
80% trophy 20 % opportunity. Some people,
73 & lumpy have done a great job convincing
People that bucks give birth and that there ain't
Enough to breed all the doe's. While ignoring
Fecundity data.

As far as elk, I'd drop age management like
A hot potato. There's only one reason to manage
This way and it has everything to do with dead elk
And very little to do with herd dynamics of living
Elk. Bull to cow ratios are not sustainable. Balance.





"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-01-13 AT 08:06AM (MST)[p]wiley,
Good to see you pop back in on occasion. Your spin as usual is very good.

I'm dont ever recall ever saying that bucks give birth to does. But it does sound good to say that. I also don't ever throwing out a number like 170 in regards to deer management....but again it does look good. As far as the hunter survey. Depending in how questions are asked you can usually sway the the outcome pretty substantially. I have never said I would like to see 80% Trophy Units and 20% oppurtunity. What I have said all along is I would like to see 100% management of each herd and addressing the dynamics of each herd. That was my reason for support of Opt 2. To say we are currently managing for 80% of units to be Trophy units is laughable. Tell me since splitting into 30 management units how many tags have been cut? We have argued this for over 3 years now and you have heard all my answers and thoughts. But I do still chuckle when you post your thoughts and theories as if they are mine or as if I have said those things.


BTW, Which unit did you hunt this year? I hope it was full of mature bucks, young bucks and does with fawns. And I hope you had a great time enjoying this sport we are all so passionate about.
 
Heh, yes that looks about right...plastic and artificial

But slightly better executed than its "arguments" on these forums and definitely a bit better than the leopard surfing the magic carpet warthog

Oh "boy", what fun!:)
 
73 I agree you can Taylor any survey to
Get the desired answer. You are wrong
About how this survey was put together.
This question was asked a minimum of 3
Different ways and the results were the same.

I did have multiple opportunities to take
A buck on opening weekend.

Tritip, if you think wildlife is the property
Of special interest groups vs the people of
The respective state why would I want to waste
My limited typing skills trying to convince you
Otherwise??





"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
"Tritip, if you think wildlife is the property
Of special interest groups vs the people of
The respective state why would I want to waste
My limited typing skills trying to convince you
Otherwise??"

Can you quote me anywhere I said wildlife is the property of special interest groups? If you can find me that quote I will never type on these forums again. Apparently it is worth your limited typing skills banging out this BS.

As for greatwestern, if you think you are going to hurt my feelings you are wrong. You have entered a discussion with absolutely no logic or argument to the topic. Your soul purpose is to only attack my job. My job has been scrutinized and attacked by critics, customers, anti-hunters, artists, judges, and little kids just like you for twenty one years. I think I can deal with the internet. Like I said before, how old are you boy?
 
"Tritip, I can tell you that the ratios are
80% opportunity 20% trophy according to
Multiple questions on the last mule deer
Hunter survey."

And that shows your survey is garbage because no one asked who wants both.

"Current management is just the opposite
80% trophy 20 % opportunity. Some people,
73 & lumpy have done a great job convincing
People that bucks give birth and that there ain't
Enough to breed all the doe's. While ignoring
Fecundity data."


How is that true if the majority of big game tags in the state are still over the counter and less than %80 of the big game animals would be considered trophy.
 
Doh! Didn't realize Tardstate had a "job"...always struck me as a hobbyist.

"Argument"? Ha!

Convoluted, circular, nonsensical drivel? mmmm...

Its poor frayed tail must be getting very short :)
 
Tritip, all general season deer tags are a draw
There homey.

Not interested in participating in a ##### stirring
Contest with you.



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
WTF, tritip, I'll bite. Did you not write the quote
That makes up my signature??





"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
I wrote that. I still agree with that statement %100. That statement in no way whatsoever can be translated into me believing that wildlife are the property of special interest groups, unless you don't have a firm grasp of logic or the English language. If you believe that then you can believe that a person that draws a deer tag owns wildlife and is a special interest group.
 
So look up and tell me how many deer tags are drawn. Then tell me the number of deer that are killed. Then tell me the percentage of deer killed that are considered trophy. By the way that is where it gets real fuzzy because we could start a thread on here over what people consider a trophy and argue about it for two years straight, but trophy was the term you picked so lets go for it. I am glad you are talking and learning along with me.
 
My favorite tristate quote of the day: "You have entered a discussion with absolutely no logic or argument to the topic."

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

My favorite tristate quote of all time: "The future is large scale auction tags. The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be good to allow second sales of auction tags as in outfitters purchasing tags and then re-selling them to the public."

Thanks for digging that up wiley. I was laughing about that statement with another mm member the other day. That statement really explains tristate and his views on wildlife conservation and management. No wonder he is such an ardent defender of all of these "conservation groups."

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
Selling tags to outfitters for distribution sure as ##### translates
To me as private ownership.



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Tri,

Well played. You actually got a chuckle out of me.

I've got to agree I like the choice. The only problem is, there are groups out there trying to turn all the vanilla into chocolate.
 
Don't worry about the deer herds, Don has it figured out ...

"4. Sacrificial anode theory. I think this study is proving the sportsmen right, and the DWR right. The DWR - specifically former game manager mike welch - that the transplanted deer didn't do as well as natives. However, sportsmen might be right, the transplanted Deer take some pressure from predation of native herds. Thus, in the end, a successful restoration of the Henry Mountain deer herd. A combination of better habitat, water,predator control, and transplants. in engineering, sometimes you attach a piece of zinc to a copper pipe. The system has unsolvable corrosion problems, so you put something for the corrosion to eat and let your pipes alone."
 
That is a beautiful mount. Thanks for posting. How about a picture of one of your infamous javalina mounts?

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
All of this money that was pissed away on "consulting fee's" and luring that idiot ##### Cheney to the Western Hunting and Conservation Expo could have done so much good.

Imagine if every cent spent on Benson, Peay and the audit was actually used to study the decline of deer in the west. We'd be at least a million bucks ahead of finding an actual answer and plan to move forward.

TriTip I appreciate you being a man of your word. Good Riddance.


"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
That is private ownership, OF A PERMIT TO GO HUNTING! Not owning an animal. Are you guaranteed ownership of an animal when YOU get a deer tag through the draw????? I think not. Get with the program auctioning a deer tag and drawing a deer tag are the same type of property. The only difference is the tools for acquisition.

By the way I left to take my boy hunting this weekend. Some people's lives don't revolve around a computer and the hate they feel for other hunters.
 
>"The future is large scale auction
>tags.
>The majority of the tags should
>go up
>for auction anually. It MIGHT even
>be
>good to allow second sales of
>auction
>tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
>
>and then re-selling them to the
>public."
>TRISTATE 8/17/2012

The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
Theodore Roosevelt
 
>That is private ownership, OF A
>PERMIT TO GO HUNTING!
>Not owning an animal.
>Are you guaranteed ownership of
>an animal when YOU get
>a deer tag through the
>draw????? I think not.
> Get with the program
>auctioning a deer tag and
>drawing a deer tag are
>the same type of property.
> The only difference is
>the tools for acquisition.
>
>By the way I left to
>take my boy hunting this
>weekend. Some people's lives
>don't revolve around a computer
>and the hate they feel
>for other hunters.

So, who does own the animal? And what determines ownership? And who has the right to determine it's fate? And who should be allowed to market and earn money from the hunting/killing of an animal they own (or don't own)?
 
^^^^Yes....THIS^^^^

"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 
"So, who does own the animal?"

According to the law as it stands right now wild animals are owned by the state. In reality that translates to the government owns the animals. Nobody likes to here that answer but its the truth. They sit above the law and they decide the fate and management of the wild native, and sometimes non-native animals.

" And what determines ownership?"

Law.

" And who has the right to determine it's fate?"

This is a very broad question. First think of it as permission. Your elected and appointed government officials have that right in most cases, but at times they will hand down that right to private citizenry to decide. It already occurs. With the game management and harvest management we use today.


" And who should be allowed to market and earn money from the hunting/killing of an animal they own (or don't own)?"

That is a fairly complicated question as well. Obviously the government is getting to market it. Obviously land owners are getting to market it also in some cases because in some cases they control trespass rights. In some cases private individuals get to market the game. Also to answer this question we need to make solid designations between live animal marketing and post mortem animal marketing. Right now some states already allow secondary sales of tags. Some do not.

All these are really valuable questions you asked and a good way to get to the root of a lot of our wildlife management dilemmas.
 
>"So, who does own the animal?"
>
>
>According to the law as it
>stands right now wild animals
>are owned by the state.
> In reality that translates
>to the government owns the
>animals. Nobody likes to
>here that answer but its
>the truth. They sit
>above the law and they
>decide the fate and management
>of the wild native, and
>sometimes non-native animals.
>
>" And what determines ownership?"
>
>Law.
>
>" And who has the right
>to determine it's fate?"
>
>This is a very broad question.
> First think of it
>as permission. Your elected
>and appointed government officials have
>that right in most cases,
>but at times they will
>hand down that right to
>private citizenry to decide.
>It already occurs. With
>the game management and harvest
>management we use today.
>
>
>" And who should be allowed
>to market and earn money
>from the hunting/killing of an
>animal they own (or don't
>own)?"
>
>That is a fairly complicated question
>as well. Obviously the
>government is getting to market
>it. Obviously land owners
>are getting to market it
>also in some cases because
>in some cases they control
>trespass rights. In some
>cases private individuals get to
>market the game. Also
>to answer this question we
>need to make solid designations
>between live animal marketing and
>post mortem animal marketing.
>Right now some states
>already allow secondary sales of
>tags. Some do not.
>
>
>All these are really valuable questions
>you asked and a good
>way to get to the
>root of a lot of
>our wildlife management dilemmas.

So we know (sorta) what's happening currently which seems to work for some of us, but not for others.
Now, I'd like to know how you think it should be.

Who should own the animals and why?
What criteria should determine the laws regarding ownership, ie; inside fenced property?, adoption (per wild horses and burros)?, sales (per pet stores or livestock auctions)?, government agency?, etc.
Who should have the right to determine its fate?
The last question will probably be answered by the above questions.

I know you would prefer that the government get out of the management of wildlife as much as possible and you refer to Texas as an example, but I don't see how the Texas system would work in Utah given the fact that the vast majority of our big game (and small game) habitat is public property (BLM, Nat Forest, National Parks and Monuments, Military, Bureau of Reclamation, Corps of Engineers, Division of Wildlife Resources, State Trust Lands, State Parks and others), and given that the animals are indeed wild and can, and do, travel many miles on a yearly (even daily) basis and don't seem to recognize boundries, and given that hunting has been a long established affordable family activity. Our arrangements may not agree with the ideal conservative view of total private ownership of everything, but it has worked for the majority of Utah hunters for a long time and we find now that many of us are being eased out of the system for social/trophy reasons. And some of us are resisting the trend by speaking out in forums and meetings, and social media.

However, having said all that, I, for one, would like to hear your answers to get your "perspective" (Sorry, there's that nasty word again. :)

Lee Tracy (UWC)
 
"So we know (sorta) what's happening currently which seems to work for some of us, but not for others.
Now, I'd like to know how you think it should be."

Okydoky

"Who should own the animals and why?"

No one should "own" the native game animals. This is actually very close to the system we have now. However, post mortem animal parts should be owned by private people and even companies.

"What criteria should determine the laws regarding ownership, ie; inside fenced property?, adoption (per wild horses and burros)?, sales (per pet stores or livestock auctions)?, government agency?, etc."

All non-native game should not be regulated at all by any government as far as hunting and harvest. They should be regulated by government in regards for transportation, relocation, and competition in regards to disease and resources. Basically all laws that are on the books for livestock should be about the only restrictions put on non-native species.

"Who should have the right to determine its fate?"

The people who will increase the economic value of the beast the most.

"The last question will probably be answered by the above questions.

I know you would prefer that the government get out of the management of wildlife as much as possible and you refer to Texas as an example, but I don't see how the Texas system would work in Utah given the fact that the vast majority of our big game (and small game) habitat is public property (BLM, Nat Forest, National Parks and Monuments, Military, Bureau of Reclamation, Corps of Engineers, Division of Wildlife Resources, State Trust Lands, State Parks and others), and given that the animals are indeed wild and can, and do, travel many miles on a yearly (even daily) basis and don't seem to recognize boundries, and given that hunting has been a long established affordable family activity. Our arrangements may not agree with the ideal conservative view of total private ownership of everything, but it has worked for the majority of Utah hunters for a long time and we find now that many of us are being eased out of the system for social/trophy reasons. And some of us are resisting the trend by speaking out in forums and meetings, and social media.

However, having said all that, I, for one, would like to hear your answers to get your "perspective" (Sorry, there's that nasty word again."


Hey, I am not saying you have to like it. But the truth is our wildlife and wildlife management are dynamic populations and forces. None of us can realistically think we can use a forty year old system of wildlife management now and expect positive results. The simple fact will always remain, if you want more hunting opportunities for future generations you have to find ways to manage wildlife to its full potential and constantly increase its population. People who want dirt cheep hunting will eventually end up with wildlife that ain't worth dirt. Would I like there to be four buck tags for every hunter in the state and they don't cost a dime? Hellllllll yeah? Is that ever going to happen? Nope.

Take for instance just in the past week DSC has been taking a lot of heat from the press because they are going to auction off a Black rhino tag. People are upset that there are only 4000 of them and we are going to kill one of these rare animals. They do not understand that the one rhino hunt will raise upwards of 250k to save all the other rhinos. 250K will make a lot more rhinos. What people are learning is no matter who we say "owns" wildlife is the fact that if wildlife's value is not maximized the resource will suffer. The more wildlife/human conflict you have the more evident it will become. This is what is happening with our wildlife in the US now.

As for the variable of public land versus private land that matters very little. Obviously trying to move a government in the right direction of conservation is more difficult than getting a landowner to do it. At the same time having a government agency on your side has some benefits that outweigh dealing with a landowner.

Now what I want you to do is find decide what a mule deer buck is worth. There isn't a right or wrong answer here and I know it isn't an easy question. But you say you "own" wildlife. Now I want to know what is that buck worth.
 
TriTip, does your integrity have a price tag??




"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-05-13 AT 00:08AM (MST)[p]>"So we know (sorta) what's happening
>currently which seems to work
>for some of us, but
>not for others.
>Now, I'd like to know how
>you think it should be."
>
>
>Okydoky
>
>"Who should own the animals and
>why?"
>
>No one should "own" the native
>game animals. This is
>actually very close to the
>system we have now.
>However, post mortem animal parts
>should be owned by private
>people and even companies.
>
>"What criteria should determine the laws
>regarding ownership, ie; inside fenced
>property?, adoption (per wild horses
>and burros)?, sales (per pet
>stores or livestock auctions)?, government
>agency?, etc."
>
>All non-native game should not be
>regulated at all by any
>government as far as hunting
>and harvest. They should
>be regulated by government in
>regards for transportation, relocation, and
>competition in regards to disease
>and resources. Basically all
>laws that are on the
>books for livestock should be
>about the only restrictions put
>on non-native species.
>
>"Who should have the right to
>determine its fate?"
>
>The people who will increase the
>economic value of the beast
>the most.
>
>"The last question will probably be
>answered by the above questions.
>
>
>I know you would prefer that
>the government get out of
>the management of wildlife as
>much as possible and you
>refer to Texas as an
>example, but I don't see
>how the Texas system would
>work in Utah given the
>fact that the vast majority
>of our big game (and
>small game) habitat is public
>property (BLM, Nat Forest, National
>Parks and Monuments, Military, Bureau
>of Reclamation, Corps of Engineers,
>Division of Wildlife Resources, State
>Trust Lands, State Parks and
>others), and given that the
>animals are indeed wild and
>can, and do, travel many
>miles on a yearly (even
>daily) basis and don't seem
>to recognize boundries, and given
>that hunting has been a
>long established affordable family activity.
>Our arrangements may not agree
>with the ideal conservative view
>of total private ownership of
>everything, but it has worked
>for the majority of Utah
>hunters for a long time
>and we find now that
>many of us are being
>eased out of the system
>for social/trophy reasons. And some
>of us are resisting the
>trend by speaking out in
>forums and meetings, and social
>media.
>
>However, having said all that, I,
>for one, would like to
>hear your answers to get
>your "perspective" (Sorry, there's that
>nasty word again."
>
>
>Hey, I am not saying you
>have to like it.
>But the truth is our
>wildlife and wildlife management are
>dynamic populations and forces.
>None of us can realistically
>think we can use a
>forty year old system of
>wildlife management now and expect
>positive results. The simple
>fact will always remain, if
>you want more hunting opportunities
>for future generations you have
>to find ways to manage
>wildlife to its full potential
>and constantly increase its population.
> People who want dirt
>cheep hunting will eventually end
>up with wildlife that ain't
>worth dirt. Would I
>like there to be four
>buck tags for every hunter
>in the state and they
>don't cost a dime?
>Hellllllll yeah? Is that
>ever going to happen?
>Nope.
>
>Take for instance just in the
>past week DSC has been
>taking a lot of heat
>from the press because they
>are going to auction off
>a Black rhino tag.
>People are upset that there
>are only 4000 of them
>and we are going to
>kill one of these rare
>animals. They do not
>understand that the one rhino
>hunt will raise upwards of
>250k to save all the
>other rhinos. 250K will
>make a lot more rhinos.
> What people are learning
>is no matter who we
>say "owns" wildlife is the
>fact that if wildlife's value
>is not maximized the resource
>will suffer. The more
>wildlife/human conflict you have the
>more evident it will become.
> This is what is
>happening with our wildlife in
>the US now.
>
>As for the variable of public
>land versus private land that
>matters very little. Obviously
>trying to move a government
>in the right direction of
>conservation is more difficult than
>getting a landowner to do
>it. At the same
>time having a government agency
>on your side has some
>benefits that outweigh dealing with
>a landowner.
>
>Now what I want you to
>do is find decide what
>a mule deer buck is
>worth. There isn't a
>right or wrong answer here
>and I know it isn't
>an easy question. But
>you say you "own" wildlife.
> Now I want to
>know what is that buck
>worth.

Therein lies the delema! Unlike my vote tommorrow, my misely $225 for a buck antelope, a buck deer and two elk tags doesn't have the value to the DWR that Denny Austad's $200,000+ Antelope Island deer tag has. A buck isn't worth as much to me (or to the DWR) as it is to the trophy hunters who are currently running the show through their high profile influencing of those who make the decisions regarding the management of wildife (DWR, RAC's and Wildlife Board). And that influence is due in large part to the "donations" that they are actually obligated to make from the money that comes from the auctioning and and marketing of the rights to buy certain permits to hunt the animals I (and they) "own".

It also isn't worth as much to me because, as you have pointed out, hunting those animals is just a hobby to me, but it is their livlihood. And because it's their livlihood and because their idea of a trophy differs from mine, that money that is generated for wildlife from the sale of permits (both mine and theirs) is used to increase the value of trophies according to their definition, not mine, even though we both "own" the same share of any animal.

You assume that the money generated by these big money hunts will be used to increase the overall population of the animals, thus giving more people the opportunity to hunt, but that's not how it's working! The increased buck to doe ratios, the reduction of 3,500 buck tags, the creation of 30 new limited entry units (though they're still called general deer units), the $5 increase in big game permit fees to kill coyotes, the proposed limits to spike elk permits on the Monroe unit and the proposed elimination of bull elk from the Sanpete Valley extended hunt are ploys to increase the number and value of trophies according to their definition, ie; large antlers and horns. And even if some of the things they propose will actually increase the numbers, the prices and hassles to get there will put hunting too far down the list of priorities for many more Utah families and it won't make any difference to them how many animals we have.

In fact, after this year's hunts, I suspect I'll end up being the lone hunter in my family. Of my five of six children who hunted, only one daughter and two of her kids is now willing to hunt with dad/grandpa, but her new husband wants nothing to do with it. It's just getting too complicated, expensive and time consuming for young growing families and old codgers like me. Time after time we see on this forum questions regarding the general rules of hunting that are supposedly easy to read and understand, timing of applications and hunts, changes being proposed, hunts that have disappeared, new hunts and programs coming on. And every year it's something new. It's sad that we now have to put so much effort to get the youth through the front door only to have to push them out the back when they turn 18.

Sorry for the rant, but I know I'm not the only one with this viewpoint. I don't hate or want to eliminate any hunters or any groups, but I also don't want them easing me and my family out either simply because they have the money and influence to do so.

Which brings us back to the subject of this thread. This audit puts them on notice that there are a lot of people like me who are willing to speak up and use the political system to make changes. And, for their own good, it gives them an opportunity get back to their roots. They started out fighting people like they've become! Also, FWIW, it's not just SFW and BGF I'm refering to.
 
"Therein lies the delema! Unlike my vote tommorrow, my misely $225 for a buck antelope, a buck deer and two elk tags doesn't have the value to the DWR that Denny Austad's $200,000+ Antelope Island deer tag has. A buck isn't worth as much to me (or to the DWR) as it is to the trophy hunters who are currently running the show through their high profile influencing of those who make the decisions regarding the management of wildife (DWR, RAC's and Wildlife Board). And that influence is due in large part to the "donations" that they are actually obligated to make from the money that comes from the auctioning and and marketing of the rights to buy certain permits to hunt the animals I (and they) "own"."

So when you don't want to pay the amount of money that the state thinks a buck tag is worth you don't get to hunt anymore. Period. Its that simple. Doesn't matter how much you claim to "own". You own those golden eagles too but the state says you can't kill them. You claim to "own" a lot of stuff that the state doesn't let you shoot at.

Seriously if you actually owned a deer. You and nobody else. You own a little piece of land with a buck on it and you have a legal piece of paper in your hand stating you are the owner of said buck. Are you going to let a stranger come on your property and shoot YOUR deer for $225. Better yet would you shoot that buck? Please answer this question it is important.

"It also isn't worth as much to me because, as you have pointed out, hunting those animals is just a hobby to me, but it is their livlihood. And because it's their livlihood and because their idea of a trophy differs from mine, that money that is generated for wildlife from the sale of permits (both mine and theirs) is used to increase the value of trophies according to their definition, not mine, even though we both "own" the same share of any animal."

It doesn't matter what you think you "own". It matters that a state agency that teeters on the verge of insolvency every year finds money so they can continue. That will always be more important to the people that call the shots than whether you have a deer tag or not.

"You assume that the money generated by these big money hunts will be used to increase the overall population of the animals, thus giving more people the opportunity to hunt, but that's not how it's working! The increased buck to doe ratios, the reduction of 3,500 buck tags, the creation of 30 new limited entry units (though they're still called general deer units), the $5 increase in big game permit fees to kill coyotes, the proposed limits to spike elk permits on the Monroe unit and the proposed elimination of bull elk from the Sanpete Valley extended hunt are ploys to increase the number and value of trophies according to their definition, ie; large antlers and horns. And even if some of the things they propose will actually increase the numbers, the prices and hassles to get there will put hunting too far down the list of priorities for many more Utah families and it won't make any difference to them how many animals we have."

It is working. Just because you aren't seeing more deer doesn't mean it isn't working. Two reasons you aren't feeling the benefits. First, Only a couple of groups are allowed to benefit from the funds and one is the state. The state could screw up a wet dream and we all know it. They piss it away on new badges if they have the chance. You must make it to where many many private citizens can profit from the wildlife. you have to take your wildlife industry from something worth tens of millions of dollars and make it worth BILLIONS of dollars. When that happens you have business recognize it as an actual opportunity to profit and then they will invest into the pie to make the pie larger so they can cut their slice. By the pie getting larger I am talking about more deer. More deer means more supply and the price starts to come down or stalls.

"In fact, after this year's hunts, I suspect I'll end up being the lone hunter in my family. Of my five of six children who hunted, only one daughter and two of her kids is now willing to hunt with dad/grandpa, but her new husband wants nothing to do with it. It's just getting too complicated, expensive and time consuming for young growing families and old codgers like me. Time after time we see on this forum questions regarding the general rules of hunting that are supposedly easy to read and understand, timing of applications and hunts, changes being proposed, hunts that have disappeared, new hunts and programs coming on. And every year it's something new. It's sad that we now have to put so much effort to get the youth through the front door only to have to push them out the back when they turn 18."

What you are discussing here is a private situation within your family and nothing the populace can or should interfere in. I am sorry that hunting is leaving your family, and I wish you much luck in turning that around.

"Sorry for the rant, but I know I'm not the only one with this viewpoint. I don't hate or want to eliminate any hunters or any groups, but I also don't want them easing me and my family out either simply because they have the money and influence to do so."

Then make your wildlife plan worth more money than theirs. Plain and simple.

"Which brings us back to the subject of this thread. This audit puts them on notice that there are a lot of people like me who are willing to speak up and use the political system to make changes. And, for their own good, it gives them an opportunity get back to their roots. They started out fighting people like they've become! Also, FWIW, it's not just SFW and BGF I'm refering to. "

This audit is a distraction. For a brief moment you were actually thinking and discussing the real issues facing wildlife management and hunters and now you are back on a penny sideshow that won't solve any of the problems that are threatening you hobby.
 
What is the going price to end drought??







"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
"What is the going price to end drought??"

Obviously you can not "end" drought. But you can spend millions even billions of dollars lessening the footprint of drought on your wildlife. It takes years of investment in time and money but the rewards are great. We as human beings are the one species on this planet that can increase carrying capacity of ecosystems through the use of technology. We do it all the time.
 
Tritip, you poor old brainwashed drone.

Some things ain't for sale and there are some things
Money can't buy. Deer elk and a mans integrity
Should never be for sale. Conversely in Utah
We've dropped millions in to habitat restoration
And ain't got ##### but losses to show for it.

Your idea of turning everything in to a commodity
Doesn't work.

Get the Ayn Rand ##### out of your head.




"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-05-13 AT 10:16AM (MST)[p]"Tritip, you poor old brainwashed drone.

Some things ain't for sale and there are some things
Money can't buy. Deer elk and a mans integrity
Should never be for sale. Conversely in Utah
We've dropped millions in to habitat restoration
And ain't got ##### but losses to show for it.

Your idea of turning everything in to a commodity
Doesn't work.

Get the Ayn Rand ##### out of your head."


And this is where it all falls apart. When did deer, elk and integrity ever get put in the same category as what should and shouldn't be for sale. What confused illogical mo-mo would think animals are on the same moral level as men's character??????? That is the same line of thinking of PETA members. By the way deer and elk ARE for sale. There ain't one damn thing you can do about that. Why are deer better than any other animal that is bought and sold? You're a speciest. You want to get high and mighty about one animal but screw the rest and the rules don't apply. You want to live in a capitalist republic but then decide socialism and your narcissist beliefs of wildlife should rule over all other's intent. If you are dropping millions into habitat restoration and got nothing then FIRE the idiots that claim to be doing the work. You either are putting money into bad science or your workers aren't doing the job they should. This country flies people to the fricking moon 4 decades ago and you can't manage habitat. That's really really sad. And now you want to quit and cry about evil rich people ruining hunting for all you other people that "own" wildlife and expect a handout. I ain't buying that crap anymore!
 
Elkfromaabove, Did not know that the rich were trying to force you and your family out of being able to hunt. Don't know how they are doing that. Are you aware of what is going on with the Monroe? Must not be because there is a small fight going on there about the elk, the total elk. Because your daughter marries someone who does not hunt how is that the fault of low numbers of game. Are you aware that the majority of deer are being killed by coyotes. That being proven now in the studies do you not think that getting rid of the coyotes will help? If it works great, If not what is your proposal. What is your proposal for the elk on the Monroe. What is your proposal for the RAC's and Board Meetings. What is UWC doing to fix the situations. That I would like to know. Are they putting any money down on the ground? I would like to know. I am sure that they are an organization that wants to see changes. Everyone does. As for the audit. A few people are upset. More are happy with the results of BGF. True there is not a number that shows how many are happy and how many are not and without that number it is two groups that do not agree.
 
Birdman-

"As for the audit. A few people are upset. More are happy with the results of BGF."

What are the results of BGF? What are the results of the state's audit?. I have not met anyone who is happy with the results of the audit. Moreover, I have not seen anyone from SFW or BGF try to explain or justify the results of the audit. Can you put a positive spin on the findings from the audit? Even tristate passed on that invitation.

I personally have not made a decision regarding BGF because I have heard conflicting stories about what they have and have not accomplished. For the time being, the only thing I know for sure about BGF is what was revealed in the State's audit, and frankly, that was not flattering.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
Hawkeye, I can read in the paper what they want to say and what they think. As you know the author of the article is an SFW disliker. I also have taken time to read the audit. Not being a CPA I do not fully understand what is being said but then I have talked to legislators who are very happy with the results what BGF has done with the wolf situation. I also have heard both pro and cons with what BGF has done but the results speak for themselves. Depending on who you talk to you get different results. If you talk to the people we have sent back to Washington they are very happy with what BGF has done and the way that they went about it. If you talk to them they say BGF has been great in accomplishing things with the wolfs. Now if you as others it has been a total waist of money. I guess I trust what the congress says back in Washington and not what others think what is going on.
 
"Can you put a positive spin on the findings from the audit? Even tristate passed on that invitation."


Hawkeye don't start spinning me into your propaganda. I told you there was nothing positive about the audit because the audit simply pissed away more money and found nothing that you bunch of titty babies weren't already crying about. More money just burned up over a childish distraction instead of you actually dealing with your issues head on.

In fact I will one up you. The audit didn't find anything negative. I know you will try and spin that which ever way you want but the truth is it didn't. It says it wanted different accounts. So what that isn't a right or wrong issue. It says it wanted payments broke up instead of an annual lump sum. That's not negative either. Just people saying they want more control. Nobody got indicted. Nobody is having money taken back from them. Hell nobody even needs to call their attorney. NOTHING NEGATIVE CAME OUT OF THE AUDIT EXCEPT MORE MONEY WAS BLOWN WITHOUT A CARE BECAUSE ITS EASY TO SPEND OTHER PEOPLE"S MONEY!
 
Tristate,

So what you're saying is the only way for us to prevail is to become the people we're trying to change? I also know you still think and/or want others to think we're also only in it for the money via the Conservation and Convention permits, but you're wrong on all counts. We know the dangers of throwing big money from public assets into the mix. We see what it's done to SFW, MDF and BGF (and others) and want no part of it. Thus this audit, the meetings regarding the 2016 Convention contract, the monitoring of the transplants, the oppositon to Option #2, and the opposition to some upcoming and ongoing proposals designed solely to reduce permits, increase buck to doe/bull to cow ratios, limit opportunity, increase prices, and showcase those "donations" made by the groups/individuals who are profiting from the sale of public assets. We are who we say we are!

Your answer about who should determine the fate of the animals is all I needed to hear. With you, everything comes down to the money, which I can understand since you deal primarily with the type of people (trophy hunters) that we're in a battle with. They're the lifeblood of your business 'cause you don't mount many (or any) two points and you don't want that to go away. Well I don't want that to go away either! I just don't want that to be our only option. And neither do the Utah legislators or the majority of Utah sportsmen. They've taken notice due to these "distractions". Like the old joke about the stubborn mule, we've finally got their attention with a 2x4 across the bridge of the nose. Now we can get some work done!

I really do appreciate your concern about my family and my hobby. It's discouraging and may be too late for us, but I'll do all I can to prevent it from needlessly happening to others.

And I appreciate this conversation without all the namecalling. Thanks,
Lee Tracy (UWC)
 
Birdman-

Thanks for the response. Not surprisingly, you also steared clear of justifying or explaining the findings in the audit.

I have not spoken with any senators or congressmen about what BGF has or has not accomplished. My question was focused solely on the audit report prepared by the Utah State Legislative Auditor General John Schaff. See link in Post #1. Surely you don't think Mr. Schaff is an "SFW disliker" or that he has an ax to grind. He was simply doing his job.

Like you, I am not a CPA. However, you don't have to be an accountant to read the report and see that something stinks. Anyone with any common sense can come to that conclusion. That is my point. I have never said that BGF and SFW have not done anything to benefit wildlife. What I am saying is that the state, the DWR and these conservation groups are not putting protections and safeguards in place to make sure that our public assets are being used properly. Mr. Schaff apparently agrees.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
"Tristate,

So what you're saying is the only way for us to prevail is to become the people we're trying to change?"

Nope. Not saying that at all. I am asking you to change the tools in which you manage wildlife. Your principals will remain the same as long as you believe more animals means more opportunity for hunters. THink of it this way. You drive the same way to work for thirty years. Suddenly for whatever reason that path to work becomes so clogged with traffic you almost can't bare the drive any longer. So one day you start taking a different way to work. Your still the same man, just trying to adapt to the life around you. Wildlife management has to be dynamic and adaptable.


" I also know you still think and/or want others to think we're also only in it for the money via the Conservation and Convention permits, but you're wrong on all counts. We know the dangers of throwing big money from public assets into the mix."

That's the misunderstanding. You haven't even started getting into big money. Your ideas of big money are mere pennies of what should be being played with and shuffled around.

" We see what it's done to SFW, MDF and BGF (and others) and want no part of it."

That's fine if you don't want any part of it. But you aren't just doing that you are spending taxpayer money attacking them. If you want truly no part of it then ignore them and come up with a better plan that you believe in.


"Your answer about who should determine the fate of the animals is all I needed to hear. With you, everything comes down to the money,"

NOT with me. WITH THE ANIMALS! IT can not be changed. They need to have value. They need to be worth more than $225. They need to be more than just a meat twinky.

" which I can understand since you deal primarily with the type of people (trophy hunters) that we're in a battle with."

I deal with all people. I took in a spike and a six point who had horns smaller than my fingers just yesterday. I am here for EVERYONE. I tan little kids first doe skins. I make the same amount of money on a forky muley as I do if I mount the antelope island buck. This is a strict business that runs off of margins and I keep those margins no matter what job is being done or what person brings it in. I do not discriminate, PERIOD.

" They're the lifeblood of your business 'cause you don't mount many (or any) two points and you don't want that to go away. Well I don't want that to go away either! I just don't want that to be our only option. And neither do the Utah legislators or the majority of Utah sportsmen. They've taken notice due to these "distractions". Like the old joke about the stubborn mule, we've finally got their attention with a 2x4 across the bridge of the nose. Now we can get some work done!"

And now you are part of what you claimed you didn't want to be part of.
 
>The audit didn't find anything negative.

>NOTHING NEGATIVE CAME OUT OF
>THE AUDIT EXCEPT MORE MONEY
>WAS BLOWN WITHOUT A CARE
>BECAUSE ITS EASY TO SPEND
>OTHER PEOPLE"S MONEY!

5269558397_64406aeb94_z.jpg



If you really don't see "anything negative" with the audit, well, then...I guess there's nothing more to say.


Vi Et Armis Invictus Maneo
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-05-13 AT 11:50AM (MST)[p]"Are you aware that the majority of deer are being killed by coyotes. That being proven now in the studies do you not think that getting rid of the coyotes will help? If it works great, If not what is your proposal."

Really? This reminds me of why someone once PM'd me and refered to you as Birdbrain. I get weekly updates on three mule deer studies and coyotes are part of the predation issue with them but lions are the primary cause of death for most. Its been proven that one lion kills more deer in a year than 100 coyotes. Give me a break.

"What is your proposal for the elk on the Monroe. What is your proposal for the RAC's and Board Meetings. What is UWC doing to fix the situations. That I would like to know. Are they putting any money down on the ground?"

Several member of UWC, including myself, actually helped the sfw translocation project get approved. The org as a whole pretty much supported it for the purpose of conserving the winter range that thousands of deer inhabit during their most vulnerable time. A loss of that particular range would devistate the entire unit's population of mule deer. Because sfw wouldn't support the divisions NEEDED number, we watched first hand the influence sfw had socially on the division. Interesting how sfw took 100 percent credit for the efforts during the actual relocation of those deer from one place to another without mentioning any of the other groups on hand to assist. Their arrogance was deafening. Also, I spend money with RMEF, SCI, and MDF each year knowing that efforts of those orgs benefit more hunters than a few.

"As for the audit. A few people are upset. More are happy with the results of BGF."

MORE people are happy with the audit and "results" of bgf?!?!?!?! You have to be sharting me, right?! I've studies this into the ground and there is not one "result" that has come of a single dime of that taxpayer money. NOTHING for Utah. NOTHING for the rest of the hunting community. Absolutely NOTHING. Oh, except for a sponsorship of that idiot former wrestler's television show. There's a wise place to put money.....fuhhh.

So, I'd like to know, what good has bgf done? Lets see some proof.

"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 

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