Legislative Audit ***BGF***

"If you talk to the people we have sent back to Washington they are very happy with what BGF has done and the way that they went about it. If you talk to them they say BGF has been great in accomplishing things with the wolfs."

Who are "they" and what "results" and show just one "accompishment" of bgf in the wolf issue. Careful now, some of us might have unfettered access to the press secretaries of each and every elected official that we "send to Washington".



"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 
elkfromabove, I promise you that you will have a much more enjoyable time if you just skip over anything from, or directed to, the antagonist.

Since I learned to just smile and scroll through that garbage, MM has been much better.

To respond the the Hawkeye/Birdman debate... All we need to know about whether the audit found anything untoward was how BGF/SFW responded: "crickets ... crickets"

These are organizations built solely on PR campaigns; hell, the point of the audit was money given to them to run a PR campaign against wolves. Public Relations is what they do, for better or for worse.

Nobody with a brain or spine can stand here and say if the audit was even a little bit redeeming for BGF that they wouldn't be standing on a mountain and screaming about redemption and the witch-hunt that was. Instead, they say nothing. There's your answer right there. The post-audit silence is deafening.

I know that the antagonist will copy and paste this post into one of his nonsensical diversions. But, happily... I won't read it. ;-)

Grizzly
 
Hawkeye, Not trying to side step the audit. Some are not happy and some are. The results are that there are key people in the state legislators that are happy with the result of what is going on in the wolf war. There are others that are not happy. Guess it just depends on what side you are on.
I sit and watch what goes on with the Wildlife Board and other proposals. If SFW's proposal is accepted, then everyone is up in arms how crooked things are. If SFW looses you do not see them jumping on some sight trying to say how crooked things are. You know from attending board meetings that they do not win anymore than other groups. They accept the results.
Elkfromabove, Tell me how are the things that are going on in the State with hunting suppose to take place without money. Where is the money going to come from for the transplants of animals etc. Do you think that we need to go back to the days when anyone could buy a license and hunt deer? Do we have the deer to warrant that? What is going on with the elk in the Monroe? Do you know what the fight is about? Do you want license costs to rise up drastically to cover the costs of transplants and other things? What are the facts where the rich are trying to run the little guy out of hunting. What is UWC doing to improve the deer herd and the elk management. I would really like to know. If they were making a difference I would be willing to support. I just can not see it. Cleanup in some areas and a fence or so now and again. To manage wildlife it takes money that the state does not have.
 
What grizz said. Not reading the drivel makes for a much more productive conversation between people this issue really effects.

I'm still waiting for clear and concise examples of what bgf has done with that money other than a PR campaign that is essentially a plea for more money. What good has bgf done with our tax dollars on the wolf issue? Anyone?



"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 
"Nobody with a brain or spine can stand here and say if the audit was even a little bit redeeming for BGF that they wouldn't be standing on a mountain and screaming about redemption and the witch-hunt that was. Instead, they say nothing. There's your answer right there. The post-audit silence is deafening."


Maybe they see the audit of proof of how insignificant all you haters are. Maybe they have already had their reassurances given to them by the people that actually hold power and your crying doesn't hurt their egos one bit.
 
Birdman-

You mentioned the "results" several times in your response. What are the results you are referring to? What results have SFW/BGF achieved with the wolf money? What have sportsmen received in exchange for that $800,000? These are honest questions, and I will admit that I don't know the answers. It sounds like you have been part of discussions regarding these issues. Educate me.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
"These are honest questions,"


No they aren't. This has been hashed out time and time again. The wolves are now managed by the states which is what the state wanted. Just because the BGF didn't support the bill that did it but they supported a different approach doesn't mean they did nothing. But that's all the haters can say. That's no different than saying your vote didn't count when your candidate loses the election. Its a childish argument that never sees an end and you know it Hawkeye.
 
TriTip, you truly are a gem. Figure out the difference
Between speciest and antispeciests and then we'll
Dive in to the rest of your idiocy.

If you are going to use big words at least know
The definition. Classic.



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
"Birdman-

You mentioned the "results" several times in your response. What are the results you are referring to? What results have SFW/BGF achieved with the wolf money? What have sportsmen received in exchange for that $800,000? These are honest questions, and I will admit that I don't know the answers. It sounds like you have been part of discussions regarding these issues. Educate me.

Hawkeye"

^^^^^THIS PLEASE????? And if anyone else has the answers, how about you finally shut up the "winers" and "haters" with substantive fact and proof that either sfw or bgf did one single thing that garnered positive results in favor of sportsmen solely concerning the wolf issue? Set aside the audit, conservation or convention tags, projects of any sort for wildlife and who should or shouldn't get credit for them. How about just what Hawkeye is asking? Provide evidence and I'll bow out of this thread and never post in it again.
 
One other question there trisimp,
How many acres of public land ya got there in
Texas ?




"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Hawkeye, There has been much talked about with the wolf war. In Washington those that have given SFW much praise about getting thing accomplished have been all 6 of Utah's congressman as well as some from Wyoming and Arizona. Even Colorado has talked about it. Also other congressman from around the country has spoken up with what has gone on. Mostly because of the hunters that are in their states that do not want wolves and it trickles down. There was a setup on the hunting channel about two weeks ago telling what has gone on. I had a Utah official tell me the other day that if they know the results that they were going to get from what BGF has done with the money it would have been either more money or started earlier. There is always going to be differences between groups as to what has been accomplished. There always will be. The thing that is for sure is the wolf situation is scary and is not going away. The animal rights people have petitioned the courts again to put an injunction to stop killing of wolfs. That will probably never end. The hunting industry must fight for all that they can get. Did you know that there is a push to kill all the elk on the Monroe because the elk are destroying the aspen trees. I guess it goes around in the circles. I try to keep updated as much as I can. I would be glad to sit down and visit sometime. As an attorney you probably eat me alive as I am not a spokes person for anyone but my self. I just want to know what goes on in the State.
 
Klbzdad, Maybe you need to contact the people that represent you in Washington and ask them. There are always town meetings and other ways to find out. That is were things are happening with the wolf battles. Contact them and ask the questions. I did. That is how you find out, not just believing what you want when you hear things.
 
"In Washington those that have given SFW much praise about getting thing accomplished have been all 6 of Utah's congressman as well as some from Wyoming and Arizona. Even Colorado has talked about it. Also other congressman from around the country has spoken up with what has gone on."

Uhhhhmmmm. Still waiting on any ONE specific "accomplishment" or contribution from sfw or bgf in the entire wolf fight, beginning to end. Just one. I've send the link to the audit and the timeline of events starting from the very first wolf working group meeting in Utah meant to develop the wolf management plan in Utah that is required by the USFWS in order to hand over state control. To the recent announcement by the USFWS to extend the public comment period on both the delisting and the mexican gray's. I've scowered them looking for something other than dead legislation or an attached statement of support on litigation or legislation AFTER other groups fought the good fight and won. How come sfw or bgf aren't a part of the Congressional Sportsmen Alliance?



"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 
Actually I used it correctly and meant exactly what I said. Just because you are to dumb to understand doesn't mean I don't know what it is.
 
Try this, call them and ask them how well they think PPCOLBR (Peter Pan Coalition Of Lost Boy's Rights) has done for protecting the rights of children in the USA. Bet you get a big thumbs up from most of them because they don't want to upset constituents with negative response. Yet, they won't be able to give even one single example of why they are giving the thumbs up. Its politics 101.

I'm asking YOU to specifically identify just ONE factual success, accomplishment, legislation, litigation, or any specific factual effort that sfw or bgf has credit for in the wolf delisting. You can do it, or can you?

I've spoken with our Utah delegation and asked specifically what bgf or sfw has done in Washington. None of them could give me one specific success or contribution either. Hatch tried to bring up his dead legislation. Nope. And the others could only speak to the conservation projects in Utah. Which is not what I was asking about. Come on, just one example. I am tired of readying my own banter on this subject, PLEASE, silence me!!!!




"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 
"Uhhhhmmmm. Still waiting on any ONE specific "accomplishment" or contribution from sfw or bgf in the entire wolf fight, beginning to end. Just one. I've send the link to the audit and the timeline of events starting from the very first wolf working group meeting in Utah meant to develop the wolf management plan in Utah that is required by the USFWS in order to hand over state control. To the recent announcement by the USFWS to extend the public comment period on both the delisting and the mexican gray's. I've scowered them looking for something other than dead legislation or an attached statement of support on litigation or legislation AFTER other groups fought the good fight and won. How come sfw or bgf aren't a part of the Congressional Sportsmen Alliance?"


Is this actual logic?????? DO you actually think this is a real argument? A bunch of sentence fragments with unprovable claims followed with some weird credibility question that may or may not hold any stock at all with anyone.
 
Kilzdad, First of all I have gotten different answers from our Legislators. Don't know what you ask them but all have been very thankful to BGF. Also Senator Barraso from Wyoming has been very complimentary for what has been done. John Kyl from Arizona is another one. Harry Reid was one that helped push BGF legislation through. They have stepped up. Now that is fact. They have said so on the public. I know that you are not going to find out the facts. You really do not care. If God came down and told you to your face you would not believe it. I am not going to argue with you. I have done the research and gotten the answers. The fact that you do not want to accept them is not my problem. I really do not care. The facts are there but since you are too lazy to dig in and find them out I would say you are the looser. You have a great day.
 
I know better than to comment on this but I'm too stupid to keep my mouth shut any longer so here are my thoughts, for what they are worth.

I could be wrong but it seems to me it may have worked like this:

1. Wolves were intentionally introduced into some of the northern States (not Utah), some of these States border Utah.

2. Wolf populations expanded in those intentionally populated States and the consequence were such that some Utah residents decided it would be better for Utah not to allow wolves to be intentional introduced nor unintentional but naturally migrated into the State. (I happen to be one of those, but I'm certainly not the only one, or so it seems.)

3. Discussions with interested and concerned citizens took place where ideas where shared and numerous "potential" problems identified and numerous preemptive-preventive possibilities were "what if'ed" by those that participated in these discussions. (I was not part of those discussions so I can only presume.)

4. Some of those that participated in these discussion were most likely sportsmen, livestockmen, County Commissioners, Mayors, State Legislators, and maybe even the Utah Governor.

5. Someone most likely said, amongst other things, "the best thing we could do is try to keep them out before we get them because it seems like it would be a lot cheaper to "keep them out" that it would be to "get them out" if they ever come here on their own via migration or if they are introduced here intentionally." Now that could be a debatable line of logic and that logic could have been debated, for all you or I know. Never the less, in the end, apparently, these debaters and players decided it was wiser to spend the money to try to "keep them out" rather than to spend money, (at a later date) try "to get them out".

6. Now, if you going to keep them out, and the folks that want them in are constantly moving this way, than that, always adjusting their strategies according to the eb and flow of politics, natural phenomena, elections and State and Federal Court appointments, it would seem, if your going to oppose and defeat them, over an extended period of time, you need to have some organized effort that is tracking very closely the moves of the opposition, and constantly trying to be at the gate so we can make sure it's closed before the other side gets there. It would seem this would need to be done by a very specialized and very committed group of highly skilled, highly motived people, working to "keep wolves out", before they get in.

7. Would it seem prudent then, if you'd been hired to "keep wolves out" if there was the slightest chance, the less whisper, that the other side is discussing, planning, or even pondering an opening to "get wolves in" that you take an immediate action, often times, when possible, to "preemptively" seal off an weak spot before it ever becomes an opening. My Uncle, who tried to teach me to cowboy many years ago used to pound into my head this behavior, "you have got to know what the cow is going to do, BEFORE it ever enters her head, then be there before she even trys". Is it not the same principle true with people and wolves?

8. So........if my job is to "keep wolves out of Utah" and someone is paying me to do that (in this case the Legislature is paying (via contract) Big Game Forever) task, and for four years, you've paid me and if I have kept wolves out of Utah, have I not done the task that's been asked of me in the contract.

9. Now, if wolves come into Utah to the degree that the party hired to keep them out has failed, then we could say, "further expenditures" would be a waste of tax payer dollars. However, as of today, that has not been the case and apparently the Legislature that has allocated the funding believes the efforts, preemptive and otherwise, has been successful and future funding may be necessary in order to continue to "keep wolves out". If the threat of wolves continues to be a priority and a concern to the citizens of Utah and BGF continues to help "keep them out" I would expect to see the funding of the contract continue. If those providing the funding change there minds because BGF fails to "keep wolves out" or we all change our minds and decide we are okay with wolves in Utah, (like there are in neighboring States) the contract and funding will stop.

10. Therefore, for me, maybe not others, the question is very simple: Do we have wolves in Utah. My answer is No. (I know we've got a few but they are not here by our choice nor have they been put here intentional nor legally.) Is BGF working to "keep wolves out" of Utah. My Answer is Yes. Is BGF trying to "get the door closed" before the opposition thinks of it or even starts to think of Utah as a State with wolves. My answer is Yes. Does everyone like how BGF does it's job. My Answer is No. Will everyone like any individual or organization that "keeps wolves out of Utah". My answer is No.

11. Are there things that BGF should do differently as they go about executing their contract with the State of Utah. The auditing firm believes there are, they have spelled out those beliefs. If the State Purchasing Department and Legislative Over Sight Committee agree with the auditor, these chances will be made to the conditions of the contract and BGF will comply or they will loose the contract, give up the contact, or face the legal consequence before a judge and/or jury. At this time, the contract is in place, both parties are reviewing the audit and the future will determine the relationship.

12. For all the hope, expectations, desire, and effort by some, no one has been fired, charged, convicted at SFW or BGF. If they should violate the law at some future time I am confident they will be punished according, how ever if you were the Governor, the Lieutenant Governor, the Attorneys General the Legislature, the State Tax Commission, eyc, etc, and you were getting call after call, complaint after complaint, and each and every time you called for an investigation you found nothing illegal, would you not, at some point, begin to think this might be a witch hunt over philosophy rather than issues of legality.

13. Differences of philosophy and difference of methodologies related to problem solving are not illegal nor are they necessarily sinister. They are however self serving, each individual and/or group works to have there needs and objectives met, when those needs come in conflict with philosophies and wants of other individuals or groups we have disagreements but that's a far cry from what some folks believe has been going on here.

14. Life will go one, this won't be the end of it, some think the entire world, but for their group. organization etc. is rotten, some believe everything is a conspiracy, and these 14 points won't do a thing to change a single person's opinion or beliefs but it's one guy's opinion, like i said at the beginning, for what it's worth.

I won't be responding to your comments, should there be any, I've read yours for the better part of a week now, they finally provoked me to add mine but I've said all I care to say on the most resent audit. I won't get into a hair splitting, name calling argument with my sportsmen friends on this one

DC
 
Good comments 2lumpy.
There are some that trust and some that don't.

I went elk hunting in one of the better LE units in WY this fall. I heard more wolf howls than bugles. Quality wasn't what it was two years ago. Talked with a WY fish and Game officer. He said they cut wolf permits in half in this trophy zone, becuase they were worried about the wolves getting delisted again from Anti-hunting group pressure.
Sportsmen and Ranchers get screwed. We are paying a heavy price.

A group BGF tries to be proactive and fight the biggest threat to our big game herds in the west, and keep Utah's investment safe for the State of Utah. We have sportsmen complaining and fighting. Nothing new.
 
Ha ha, seriously Deloss!!! Gimmie $800,000.00
And I'll make sure we never have Bengal tigers
In Utah.

Comedy gold. Y'all, including me got fleeced
To keep an animal out of the state that was 1 delisted
And 2 under a Federally approved state management
Plan.




"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
"Actually I used it correctly and meant exactly what I said. Just because you are to dumb to understand doesn't mean I don't know what it is."

Lemme help ya out there big guy.

spe?cies?ism (spsh-zzm, -s-)
n.
Human intolerance or discrimination on the basis of species, especially as manifested by cruelty to or exploitation of animals.

I am, infact, a speciest. I believe a human baby is different than a sewer rat.

You were trying to wrongly infer that I was an
ANTIspeciest.


An antispeciest sees no difference between the baby and the sewer rat.

you're welcome.

After that sinks in we can discuss why Texans have access to less than 10% the public acreage that Utahn's do.









"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-05-13 AT 06:28PM (MST)[p]Wiley,
Aaaaaa...... Nevermind, I'll just chuckle to myself.
 
Almost as funny as listening to Jake trying to
Read DC's proposal in that WB meeting or when
The 25 buck to doe ratio was scrapped.

I hunted 17B




"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Actually you jack wagon I wasn't talking about animals to humans at all. I was comparing your belief that elk and deer rise above all others species. I actually compared them to livestock. Learn how to read, idiot. Speciests do not solely decide whether animals are above humans. They decide they believe rats to be below dogs etc..
 
Somebody please shoot a cornflinger buck in Texas and send it to Tristate as soon as possible.
Maybe one of those high fence exotics would do as well.....Even in a pinch one of the many hogs that have gotten out of hand in those parts.

Did not read the majority but the poor lost soul has posted at least (59) times in this thread alone.

Hate to see the mentally handicapped without a job.
 
TriTip, are you coming or going there old fella??

I am a speciest and if you are honest so are you
And everybody else reading this.

Deer and elk are not livestock and should never
Be viewed as such.





"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
>Somebody please shoot a cornflinger buck
>in Texas and send it
>to Tristate as soon as
>possible.
>Maybe one of those high fence
>exotics would do as well.....Even
>in a pinch one of
>the many hogs that have
>gotten out of hand in
>those parts.
>
>Did not read the majority but
>the poor lost soul has
>posted at least (59) times
>in this thread alone.
>
>Hate to see the mentally handicapped
>without a job.


Boy if you only knew the half of it. We are so stinking busy right now I will probably be dead before Christmas. At least you might have that going for you.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-06-13 AT 08:48AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-06-13 AT 08:44?AM (MST)

"Harry Reid was one that helped push BGF legislation through."

I'VE LOOKED!!!!!!! There has never been ANYTHING successfully pushed through with bgf attached! I have played "devil's advocate" for the better part of two years now trying desperately to justify the existence of bgf, especially in Utah! I cannot.

Brasso? Who's lazy again? Do some research on that relationship. Shall we call Mike Lee? How about we talk again to Jason Chaffetz? Rob Bishop? Who again contributed to the campaigns of Orrin Hatch and Jim Matheson? Yeah, I happen to know WHO for a fact but do you? I'm not the lazy one here. I have read every side of this argument over and over and over again. Even DC cannot provide ONE single damned example of the influence bgf has had on preventing wolves from coming to Utah. Hell, by many accounts, they are already here, Deloss. So what now? Have you read the minutes from the wolf planning meetings? Have you talked to the OTHERS that formed the federally approved Utah Wolf Management Plan or just your dear leader (who pitched a fit and quit a couple of times because he didn't get his way)? Or are his word so precious to you that the rhetoric blinds you? I'm convinced that supporters of sfw but more specifically bgf can't STAND that not a single one of you, including Ryan Bensen or Don Peay themselves can provide one freakin' piece of FACTUAL EVIDENCE that they have contributed to the delisting efforts that ultimately proved successful. STOP trying to give credit where it is NOT due! Interesting to me that so many will insult and belittle those people who do due diligence to find knowledge by suggesting they know nothing. Seriously.......

The audit shows what it shows, commons sense will prevail. And the smoke is already starting to clear from the minds of those who bought into the "wolves are coming" bullcrap.

wiley and grizz put it best. I think I'll leave it at that and bow out.


"When you are dead, you don't know that
you are dead. It is difficult only for the
others. It is the same when you are
stupid"
 
You are a speciest and an illiterate fool. For people like you it is easier to argue than slow down and use your brain. Deer and elk are on the moral equivalent of livestock, sometimes they are livestock whether any of us agree with it, and will be used as such again in the future.

I find it funny a man that screams and cries over animals he thinks he "owns" but won't call them livestock. You are so morally and biologically confused you can't keep your crap together anymore. Dozens of people like you are a major reason we can't get our natural resources in check.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-06-13 AT 08:47AM (MST)[p]Here is your country. Cherish these natural wonders, cherish the natural resources, cherish the history and romance as a sacred heritage, for your children and your children's children. Do not let selfish men or greedy interests skin your country of its beauty, its riches or its romance.
Theodore Roosevelt quotes

Tri-The above quote is from a man that no longer lives but his words still live in those of us who you cannot stand.
The majority of us want whats best for our future generations while some think only of the present "me, me, me" mentality.
Special interest groups and greedy come to mind every time you post.
Your own words and quotes have proven where you stand.
Be wary of what you wish for as you may see your own kids someday with no place to hunt in a (natural environment).
The sad thing is that I have a feeling all they know is cornflingers and high fences and that truely is a tradgedy.
Best,
Jerry
 
^^^ perfect^^^





"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Kilzdad, You are an interesting fellow. So full of hate for SFW and BGF that you can not see the forest for the trees. I am sorry for that.
Its true, BGF has not had their name attached to legislation. Then again, they are lobbyists who talk to congressmen and have them or help them write up bills. Then the congressmen and Senators attach their name to the bills. Had you watched MacMillan Adventures about two weeks ago when they went to Washington and interviewed the different Senators and congressmen you would have seen Brasso praising what BGF has done. Same with other congressmen. Now they did that on TV. Yes all of Utah congressmen have pushed things from BGF. Yes they say so. But then again, I understand you hate Don Peay and Ryan Bensen along with SFW and BGF so bad that you are blinded by the hate. The facts are there. I am sorry you can not see them.
I want you to have a great fall and any hunts you may have left I wish you success. It is time for me to get on with other truths and not get carried away with MM. Life goes on. Youth Pheasant hunts to be done and wildlife board and RAC meetings to attend to keep up on what is really going on in the State and not just hearsay.
 
"Here is your country. Cherish these natural wonders, cherish the natural resources, cherish the history and romance as a sacred heritage, for your children and your children's children. Do not let selfish men or greedy interests skin your country of its beauty, its riches or its romance.
Theodore Roosevelt quotes

Tri-The above quote is from a man that no longer lives but his words still live in those of us who you cannot stand."

Awwwwww. Isn't that sweet. Now lets get back to reality. TR is a man not some wildlife god that you bow to and he was trying to establish something that he didn't understand the ramifications of. Doesn't mean he was bad. Doesn't mean I think I am better than him. It just means times and wildlife and the USA are changing. None of us can stop that and that includes Teddies mouth or pen.

"The majority of us want whats best for our future generations while some think only of the present "me, me, me" mentality."

I never said you didn't want what's best for future generations. Yopu are just ignorant of how to get it.

"Special interest groups and greedy come to mind every time you post."

That's your problem not mine.

"Your own words and quotes have proven where you stand.
Be wary of what you wish for as you may see your own kids someday with no place to hunt in a (natural environment)."

Exactly why I am fighting now and its not just my kids I do it for it is yours also. I want you to think about that for a second. Think about how much you hate me and what I believe and think about the fact that I fight these battles for you and your kids too. Then maybe you will have a different perspective of what I believe.

"The sad thing is that I have a feeling all they know is cornflingers and high fences and that truely is a tradgedy.
Best,
Jerry"

I am scared you are raising a bunch of kids who like the past two brainwashed generations will think all there is to wildlife management and the future of hunting is bickering over ownership and sitting on their butts waiting for gubmint to hand out another deer tag.
 
Good God tritip, would returning to a Feudalistic
Management scheme suit your needs??



"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Tri- Do you believe in the Constitution?....Or does it mean nothing to you since it was written by men of another time?

By the way you keep spouting off about (Change) you sound like someone else the majority of us disagree with. Tri-Obama

Those like yourself that have revealed there true greedy agendas is why those of us are fighting to stop it.
You see it each day getting stronger and stronger since we all have had enough of nonsense like yours.

To give you an example, many legislatures dismissed our rights here in Colorado with firearms. Proud to say I was a part of the majority group who handed a few of them there pink slips.
When the minority groups try to dictate like you would like to do, then they must face the consequences.

The majority speaks softly and carry a big stick.
Tri- you speak loudly and carry a little stick. Maybe you think 65 posts or so whacks with it will subdue us poor folk.
A mind is a terrible thing to waste. Get some meds.

I am at my limit of 5-6 posts for debating with Tripersonalities.
 
"Tri- Do you believe in the Constitution?....Or does it mean nothing to you since it was written by men of another time?"

What we are talking about isn't in the constitution. If it was that big of a deal the founding fathers would have included it. TR didn't write the constitution. Those men of another time were wrong about slavery and prohibition by the way. We fixed that and we can fix wildlife too. Quit replacing God with Teddy Roosevelt and realize TR could not have forseen the current wildlife dilemmas we face.

"By the way you keep spouting off about (Change) you sound like someone else the majority of us disagree with. Tri-Obama"

Are mule deer the same as what they were a century ago? How about two decades ago? How about the populace? How about the hunters? I suppose you think none of those variables have been changing. If all of that is changing, which it is, then wildlife management has to change.

"Those like yourself that have revealed there true greedy agendas is why those of us are fighting to stop it."

You mean my true greedy agenda of more deer and more hunting opportunities for Americans??????

"You see it each day getting stronger and stronger since we all have had enough of nonsense like yours."

Who the hell is "we all". Who elected you to be emperor of "we all"? Are you suffering from schizophrenia? There are tons of people that don't agree with you. Just because 5 guys on a silly website agree with your childishness doesn't mean you speak for mass groups of people. Quit tooting your own horn.

"To give you an example, many legislatures dismissed our rights here in Colorado with firearms. Proud to say I was a part of the majority group who handed a few of them there pink slips.
When the minority groups try to dictate like you would like to do, then they must face the consequences."

Could this be any more irrelevant to the issue at hand?

"The majority speaks softly and carry a big stick."

The majority don't carry squat. You cry and whine and you vote. That ain't a stick. You don't speak softly. You call names and throw childish tantrums on an internet forum.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-07-13 AT 09:48PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-07-13 AT 09:22?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Nov-07-13 AT 08:35?PM (MST)

> Elkfromabove,
>Tell me how are the
>things that are going on
>in the State with hunting
>suppose to take place without
>money.

I've never said we should stop the money going into the conservation groups! I only said they should account for that money that comes from public assets via tax dollars and big game permits. And this audit shows that the accounting isn't happening to the extent that it needs to for the $800,000 in tax money given to SFW/BGF. Even BGF doesn't know where it went!

Where is the
>money going to come from
>for the transplants of animals
>etc.

The money for the transplanting of elk, moose, goats, bighorns, antelope, bison and turkeys should come from the public assets as they are now because those transplants have proven to be successful. However, mule deer transplants aren't yet proven to be successful enough to merit the spending of public money. That money needs to come from private sources until they show the success neccessary to warrent spending public money. That's why SFW and BYU, not the DWR, financed the current transplant and study. Let's give it more time.

Do you think
>that we need to go
>back to the days when
>anyone could buy a license
>and hunt deer? Do
>we have the deer to
>warrant that?

No, I do not! And no, we do not! But that's not what I'm (or this audit) is asking for.


What is
>going on with the elk
>in the Monroe? Do
>you know what the fight
>is about?

I don't know the details, but I do know that the Monroe Mountain Working Group is concerned for the loss of the aspens due to elk, and that many, if not most, of the local ranchers don't want any more. I also know that some of the sportsmen want more elk and others don't because of the low deer numbers. (I also know that most of the sportsmen there resent outsiders hunting or managing their mountain.)

Do you
>want license costs to rise
>up drastically to cover the
>costs of transplants and other
>things?

Absolutely not for deer transplants, at least not until after this study is over. And it depends on what the "other things" are. If you'll be more specific, I'll give you an answer.


What are the
>facts where the rich are
>trying to run the little
>guy out of hunting.

I don't think the rich are neccessarily "trying" to "run" the little guy out of hunting. But the money they "donate" allows them to manipulate the system to their advantage and the little guy is "eased" out of the game. They want big antlered bucks and bulls and so we now have increased buck to doe ratios, 30 new limited entry units, the lose of statewide archery, a $5 increase in license fees to kill coyotes, exclusive private property hunting leases and the high profile media coverage of their "donations" and big money hunts, among other things.

>What is UWC doing to
>improve the deer herd and
>the elk management. I
>would really like to know.

I won't speak for other regions or even other members, but in the last two years, I personally spent;
1- Twelve (12) hours during 2 days, planning, setting up, supervising and working alongside 15 people (UWC members, Dedicated Hunters and volunters) loping and scattering P&J on 200 acres of Sage Hen Hollow near Panguitch
2- Three (3) hours at a meeting in Moab (7 hours of driving)discussing buck to doe ratios with DWR, SFW and RMEF (MDF was a no show).
3- Three days (I don't know how many hours) representing DWR as well as UWC at a booth during the Southern Utah Outdoor Expo in St George (DWR had their TIP trailer there, but they didn't have an info booth for questions, proclamations and pamphlets, so we picked up that stuff and helped them out.)
4- Six (6) hours planting bitterbrush seeds on the Shingle fire burn area.
5- Four (4) hours on the Parowan Front range ride prior to the transplant.
6- Four days (I don't know how many hours, but dawn to dark except the last day due to weather) helping with the deer transplant.
And that doesn't count the day I spent in the Richfield area passing out flyers for the Glenwood Hatchery fin clipping project and the 3 days I spent clipping fins. Nor does that count the numerous meetings I've been to all over the state representing UWC. Nor does that count the 40 or 50 hours I've spent at the Research Center of the Utah State Archives in Salt Lake doing research from proclamations and written WB (Actually Big Game Control Board) meeting minutes for UWC (and my own) presentations at the RAC's and WB meetings. (I'm still working with Gina, a Research Center staff member to get the cassette and reel to reel tapes digitalized and transcribed so the public can read them.)
No, you wouldn't have heard about all that, but that doesn't mean we're not doing anything. And, no, those were not DH hours, I'm not a Dedicated Hunter. And, no, UWC didn't pay or reimburse me for gas, flyers, 4 reel to reel tape recorders, gloves, hoodies, handwarmers or backpacks I've donated to the effort.

> If they were making
>a difference I would be
>willing to support. I
>just can not see it.
> Cleanup in some areas
>and a fence or so
>now and again.

See above.

>To manage wildlife it takes money
>that the state does not
>have.

The DWR income for FY 2013
$6,034,530 General funds (state taxes)
$34,804,677 Restricted funds (license, permit, COR sales)
$16,719,391 Dedicated credits (Donations, Hardware Ranch, etc.)
$21,022,327 Federal funds (Pittman-Robertson Act)
$78,580,924 TOTAL

The DWR is the only division in Utah that is expected to be self sustaining. And, in fact, they are for the most part. But one thing some of you may not realize is that most of their money comes from the public sales of licenses, permits and COR's, not just directly, but from the Pittman-Robertson funds and the state general funds which are based on the NUMBER of licenses, permits and COR's In other words, every time we cut permits, we lose income from at least 3 of the 4 sources. If the division doesn't have enough money, the first place to look for it is at the "little guy".

Unless, of course, we can generate the necessary income with 78 $1M Conservation Permit hunts or 156 $1/2M hunts or 312 $1/4M hunts or 780 $100,000 hunts. But the only way we can do that is to make every unit like Antelope Island or the Henry Mountains or at least like our OIL hunts. We can't have those "little guys" shooting any of those world cla$$ animal$, now can we? Yes, I know, I'm paranoid and we're not there yet, but every time we make a change for social, not biological, reasons we get closer because the social reasons always favor the "hard core hunter" (as DP refered to them in a Richfield wolf/coyote meeting) not the "little guy", the major source of DWR's income.

I don't hate SFW or BGF, but I still hate politics!!!
 
I've been following this topic for several years now.

Here's the bottom line.

Anytime, any organization receives donated/taxed money, someone finds a way to get rich from it.

There is no way to fix these problems. I'm speaking of the misuse of the moneys these groups collect. Do they do good work for wildlife and hunting. Yes they do. Do they find a way to line their pockets? Yep. WHY IS ANYBODY SURPRISED? Our very own government screws us harder than Debbie when she took on the whole town of Dallas. You get rid of SFW, RMEF, SCI, whoever......someone else will pop up in their place. And I don't for a second think that any of these groups aren't dirty to some degree. Not one.

So what good does it do for us to sit here and #####, and call each other names on the internet? Oh yeah, I almost forgot, that's what we do on MM!
 
Smitty I agree with a lot of what you are saying here but if you think making $194,000 in one year is "getting rich" you are mistaken.
 

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