Let me stir the Deer Pot!

[Yakatak]

Lets clean up this Mess a little more!

1st, When are we going to recognize that when we place an Elk on the mountain, we displace 3 deer? Along the time we seen Deer numbers fall, the Elk population Exploded! There's your missing Deer. When there's 20" of hard, crusty snow on the ground, They'er ALL Browsers.

2nd, Wasn't the Dedicated Hunter Program going to be the Cure-All for Deer herds 15 or so years ago? 10k people at 16 hours per year = 77 Full time positions for the division or 15 per Region, for FREE. I'm sure Montana, Idaho, Wyoming ect would die for that work force and IMHO do a Much better job at utiltizing that resource. It dosn't work and did nothing for stabolizing our Deer herds. Get rid of it and pick your season!

3rd, 29 units? There should be 129 units with, point restrictions. Example, in My back yard is the Nebo unit. Mt. Nebo is mostly roadless so 4-point or better with Loafer Mtn. thrown in there too. Leave Payson-Santaquin "Roaded" area an any Buck unit? Give all options to those different "Goaled" hunter's on each unit. I do realize that this will necessitate better patrol from our DWR which brings me to my final point.

4th, Make the DIVISION of Wildlife Resources, the DEPARTMENT of Wildlife Resources. Make them Earn their own $ and Keep it within Their own Department! The days of the DWR making the money for other Divisions such as Air Quality, Water Quality, The General Fund, ect. to spend/allowcate needs to stop. How often do we see Opassity violations from these industrys from just traveling down I-15? Issue some fines to our industerial polluters AQ/WQ guy's and fund your own program.

We can have a limited Elk harvest and a 360" bull on every wall, in each Utahn's home with a Poor Deer herd or a annual Family outing Each October with a tag in most hunters pockets, a choice of deer size/quality to hunt and an occasional opportunity to kill a spike to 5-point bull on a general season tag, But not BOTH. Utah was NEVER an Elk state!

Yak.

"For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security".

Thomas Jefferson

 

[justr_86]

Lay off the pot before you yak!

 

[BLTSO]

Alright, let's hash this a little more.

1. Elk herd has an inverse effect on deer herd (I'm assuming that's what you meant to say.) Okay great....well if that's the sole proprietor of the deer herd decline, explain the decline in Nevada....In addition, if you can blame the elk for the loss of deer population, you should also blame the rabbits. That's right...the rabbits. If there were a healthy population of rabbits, the coyotes would stay out of the deer herds, and therefore increase our numbers. I can appreciate your argument for a competition in resource, however, I think you are unfounded and need more concrete information and data before you lay all of the blame on elk.

2. Dedicated hunter program....AMEN.....I think it's a rich man's game and needs to be eliminated.

3. Increase units and throw in a 4 point or better......wake up. It doesn't work. Do a little research on the Book Cliffs unit and their idea for 3 point or better. The management is virtually impossible and leads to an exponential amount of poaching. With absolutely NO intended insult to anyone but how are we going to manage the units......as the U.S. we can't keep the illegal immigrants out of an entire COUNTRY...how are we going to keep unit 24 hunters from hunting the coveted unit 25??? The boundaries are unclear and hard to distinguish. How do the units correlate to migration?

4. I think the DWR should have to opportunity to use their resources and knowledge to make educated decisions for our deer herds. The general public opinion should be considered and the ultimate decision should be made for the benefit of the resource not Don Pay or Boyd. As far as their funding issues go.....I agree. It should stay in the department and assist the department.

Pot officially stirred.

 

[Yakatak]

BLTSO,
Excellent! I appreciate your "Respectful" rebuttal.
So far we agree with the exception of point 3. The point restriction in the Book's was discontinued around the same time as the "Spike only" elk units and a "Slot limit" were implemented on most Fishing waters.

Maybe I'm a little naive to the situation and trust in my fellow "Sportsmen" too much, but I actually believe thru these present regulations, were applying an arithmetic function before the sportsman touches the trigger has changed the former situation.

As for Nevada's current Elk situation, Other than the Fact that Nevada is not considered Prime Elk habitat or was even occupied by them prior to Caucasian settlement, I know very little about their present troubles. Although, with these simple facts, I hardly pause to wonder "Why" Nevada is having issues maintaining an Elk population.

Respectfully,
Yak.

For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security.

Thomas Jefferson

 

[buglinbilly]

Now is great time to get rid of the "undedicated hunter program"! Honor those signed up and then let it die. Think of all the people who would be willing to do work hours just for a point so they could draw more often. The guys who really want to hunt would be more than willing to do work hours for a point or two.

Also, why not designate a few of the marginal units as archery only units. How about a couple units where hunters are only allowed to hunt with open sites and older type weapons like 30/30's, 32 specials and similar weapons. Those units could have longer seasons and offer more permits. The old way did not work, so let's change things up a bit. How about a muzzleloader unit too!

We need to do things outside the box, that will help protect our herds, offer maximum opportunity and Division revenue. The ?old style? general rifle hunt can not do that. Let's move into the 21st. century with our management.

There are a lot of smart people with some great new ideas, let's use this resource for once and make the best of the bad situation. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Have a good one. BB

 

[Yakatak]

BB
You are Spot-On again!!! We've got to be Related
Yak

For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security.

Thomas Jefferson

 

[BLTSO]

I agree that a management plan needs to be effective...but let me ask you gentleman something. At what point has the state ever implemented a plan that we allowed enough time to see if it was effective or not. We need to give biology a chance and fix what we can, where we can.

Also, on the list of factors that effect population, where exactly do you think hunting rates? ? ? ? ? That's an interesting question that I would really like to get your opinion on.

As far as the management of the herds go.....you are skinning the wrong cat. The current debate (or past debate) over the options is based solely on the WAY WE HUNT DEER....not the population of the deer or their propriety. Keep in mind, more bucks does NOT mean more fawns.

From a biological stand point (which I have background in) I can assure you that a buck to doe ratio of 18:100 is not feasible and is detrimental to the population. If this is about the resource, we need to put a stop to current law before it is implemented in 2012. Consider this to be the wakening of the sleeping bear. Mr. Abbott has some amazing ideas regarding the options as well as what we can do to better the resource, I suggest you look into his theories, and back him.

BB...The idea of working for points is excellent and I stand behind it. I'm sure there are some technical issues with the point systems as well as some ignorant lazy people who would just assume buy points...which once again turns this into a rich man's game.

 

[BLTSO]

IN ADDITION....sorry, forgot this point......

The three point or better b.s....... What happens if you take out all of the mature healthy deer right before the rut??? You are left with a plethora of small antlered weaker deer to regenerate the herd. Sounds like a bad idea to me.

 

[DaBigBucks]

Some people need to rethink things before they post. Why not be open to the 3 point or better. Besides, ALL mature bucks wont be killed.(They like to hide really good during the hunts). Plus there will be more of them before the hunt, adding to the fact that not ALL of them , or even close to ALL of them will be killed, leads me to beleive there will probably be more mature bucks to regenerate the herd. Did you ever think of that?

Plus, add in the fact that the plethora of small bucks will get bigger the next year.

Just a thought. BTW I love that word "plethora".

 

[DaBigBucks]

Oh yea, about the dedicated hunter program. I think it is a great program. Yes I am in it, have been for 9 years. Why the hate against it. Most hunters pass on the small bucks allowing them to get bigger. Is that bad? Alot of hours work for the DNR/DWR. Is that bad? We have done some projects that have benefited many people. We pay more money. Is that bad?

Of the 6 people in my family that are in the DH program. I am the only one who hunted the archery this year. one didn't even hunt this year. One tagged out the first 2 years, didn't have a tag. One only hunted 1 day of the rifle. one only hunted the rifle for a couple of days. and the last one only hunted the muzzleloader for 3 days. I am sure many others are in a similar situation.

By the way, what program is going to be that "fix it all" for the deer herds. There will never be a "fix it all" for anything.
But every little thing does add up.

But to say that it hurts the deer herd and it does no good, really?

 

[BLTSO]

I think that the hunters who are truly "dedicated" have made the program successful...unfortunately, there just aren't that many of you. The ability to opt into the program with money instead of hours is kind of a bunch of crap. The regulation of DH programs is very difficult also....I just think there are other options that would serve the state better.

Three point or better........get over it. The board (who lacks outdoor back ground) even says that it's a HORRIBLE idea. It's scientifically proven to promote bad genetics in a herd and lead to lower fawn recruitment rates. Both of which, I don't personally want in my herds......how about you?

Trust me, I've hashed over the idea of 3 point or better for a really long time. I see no short or long term benefit...at all. It's been noted time and time again that if you do 3 point or better, Joe schmo goes out and shoots a buck...walks up to it and it doesn't make rank. So what does he do.....walks away. MOST of the time....that is the case. Like it or not, legal or not, ethical or not...that's what happens. There's the general public for ya.

I know there is good intention behind 3 point or better but it just doesn't work...sorry.....

 

[DaBigBucks]

Well, if you listen or agree with "The Board", that is a big problem in itself. Wow.

And most people will not shoot smaller bucks, and leave them. Sure, that may have happened in the Book Cliffs, on a small scale. But I guarentee that most people were not part of it. Besides if that is the case, I bet most people hunt with out a tag................

I know alot of people would like to see it. With these new smaller sub units. I think it would be a good idea to try it on a couple of them. And if they did, I bet they would be the ones that are harder to draw, year after year.

I am just saying that if they want to please alot of people, why not try to have some units 3 point or better, archery only, traditional muzzloaders, etc....Just a thought.

 

[justr_86]

I'm a dedicated hunter too. Love the program and can't see any negative coming from it.

3 point or better will not work for a lot of different reasons. Promotes bad genetics, bltso stated the people leaving bucks, it doesn't benefit the herd in any way, the antler restrictions in place are the only good antler restrictions. What will antler restrictions do to help? The way I see it is if you put too many stupid little laws like this all you do is turn honest people into criminals. If you want to hold yourself to the 3 point or better standard have at it and have fun! You can tell people what a trophy should be to them.

I shot a 2 point this year, my first year in the DH program because my 3 year old was sitting next to me. It IS something he still talks about and is something he will ALWAYS remember it! Its nobodys right to take that away from him or I.

 

[Founder]

I'd like to see some 3-point or better units also. Out of the 29, they should make a couple 3-point or better and see what happens. I remember when Monroe was 3-point or better. That was sure fun to see lots of 4 point bucks each year.

I think they also need to increase primitive weapon opportunities. Maybe experiment with different season dates, road closures, etc.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com

 

[justr_86]

Look at the bookcliffs, it had antler restrictions too. Now you see more big 2s, 2x3s, 3x4s than anything. The 4s you see are crabby. Its hard to find a 4 point with even decent forks there. Looks like antler restrictions did a lot of good there!

Still nobody has said any good that it does.

 

[DaBigBucks]

>I'm a dedicated hunter too. Love
>the program and can't see
>any negative coming from it.
>
>
>3 point or better will not
>work for a lot of
>different reasons. Promotes bad genetics,
>bltso stated the people leaving
>bucks, it doesn't benefit the
>herd in any way, the
>antler restrictions in place are
>the only good antler restrictions.
>What will antler restrictions do
>to help? The way I
>see it is if you
>put too many stupid little
>laws like this all you
>do is turn honest people
>into criminals. If you want
>to hold yourself to the
>3 point or better standard
>have at it and have
>fun! You can tell people
>what a trophy should be
>to them.
>
>I shot a 2 point this
>year, my first year in
>the DH program because my
>3 year old was sitting
>next to me. It IS
>something he still talks about
>and is something he will
>ALWAYS remember it! Its nobodys
>right to take that away
>from him or I.
>
>

I already practice 4 point or better..........And I like it.

Thats why I think it would be a good idea to have a couple 3 point or better sub units. Then you have a choice to put in for it or not.

I totally understand it is right to shoot anything, but can you imagine if everyone did that. How many mature bucks would be left. It is hard to say, but there would be less then there is now. And if you ask some people, there are no big buck left in utah......

 

[Founder]

There are lots of places with lots of "big 2s, 2x3s, 3x4s" and crabby 4s. The 3-point of better thing didn't cause that. That is caused by people shooting the bigger and better looking bucks. That's why they have management hunts on the Henry's and Pauns., because there are always less desireable bucks in a herd that hunters don't shoot if given the choice.

The "good" that 3-point or better does is.....instead of hunting an area with spikes and two points, a person would get to hunt the same area for for 3 and 4-point bucks. And they're funner to get than a spike or 2-point. That is the "good". It's kind of like the good of the Henry Mtns., but not to that extreme.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com

 

[buglinbilly]

I would also be a proponent of 3 or 4 of the units, being designated as 3 point or better units.

Many years ago, there was a guy in the division, who seemed to try to educate (and I think he did a good job) everyone down there, or every one who walked into the Division, on all the pitfalls of three points or better hunting.

So at this point I really don't think they know the real outcome of such a policy. And to say that the three points or better hunting caused all the problems, that exist with the bucks in the Bookcliffs , is just a stretch of ones imagination.

Perhaps what caused the Bookcliffs problems, was the fact, there were too many hunters, for too many years, shooting everything out there, but the real dinks.

The biggest majority, of the younger bucks, will age into decent and in some cases, trophy class four point bucks, if given the change to live long enough. You are simply giving the younger bucks, one more year to mature and learn how to be a smarter deer, before you hunt them. For the few mature, large 2 by 2's, that will never grow anything but a 2x2 rack, there could easily be a regulation set aside, that would allow the taking of such bucks.

At least, in trying that approach, on a few units, we could soon learn the true merits or downfall of such a management strategy.

One advantage of breaking up the state, into smaller units, would be opportunity to try several different management strategies and discovering which work the best. We all know, the past approach, of doing every thing the same as we have for many years, has not worked up to this point and won't work in the future. So let's hope we can use the opportunity presented, to discover what will really work best for our deer herds.

Have a good one. BB

 

[elkun]

bb. how about getting off that undedicated hunter bull #####. you sound like a broken record. it shows your old age ......

 

[buglinbilly]

elkum, although I realize there are some mighty good hunters in that program, on the whole most are really undedicated hunters and I happen to call a spade a spade. If that bothers you so be it.

But still have a good one after you get over it. BB

 

[justr_86]

I'm only 24, I used to shoot any 3 point I could find and did pretty good with it. The last 5 years with the exception of this year I have limited myself to the more mature bucks. Letting alot of little bucks go and seeing them again after the season. If someone wants to shoot a 2 point either because its a trophy to them or they prefer the taste of younger deer why try to take that away?

Forcing people to "trophy hunt" with either frustrate them into quitting along with taking more of the mature bucks out of the herd due to thats all people can shoot causing detrimental effects during the rut because the mature bucks are gone leaving the yearlings to do the breeding cutting down on fawn recruitment amplifying the problem. Biologically 3 point or better does not make sense.

I wouldn't put my boys in for a hunt with this regulation because it takes away from them. Teaches them that hunting is all about the headgear, not the total experience and I want them to understand that every animal is a privilege not a right.

If you want to join another group of hunters that are trophy hunters, hold yourself to that standard don't make everyone else.

Where do hunters fall on the list of impacts that effect our deer herds? If you go by Boyd Bateman's (SFW President) statement with 2000 cougars they are taking out upwards of 100,000 deer per year. According to his statement hunters aren't even close to being a threat to deer so when your debating your ideas about 3 point or better in the long run the chance of there being an advantage are slim to none especially after knowing what it has done to other units that have tried the 3 point or better.

 

[Yakatak]

WOW Elkun WOW!!!
You'er thrown a pretty big smack down on a very experianced fellow hunter here. From what Ive seen in BB, I hope your a little kinder in person than you are behind the keyboard, as BB is a Tough Enough to hold is own on the back side of the mountain.
I don't care how YOUNG he is!!!
Yak

For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security.

Thomas Jefferson

 

[DaBigBucks]

A couple things........I will keep it simple

All the two points will be 3 points the next year. There will be just as many 2 points as 3 points......

You dont have to put in for the 3 point or better areas(I dont know why you wouldn't, unless it harder to draw)....

Were talking about adults here. Kids will be kids. I think most all of us have killed a 2 point at least once in our lives.....

Since when is a 3 point a trophy.......

I agree that with these 29 sub units, it would be a good time and idea to try different management/hunting ideas.

 

[elkun]

yak'i see you dont have a real name. so run your mounth.the dedicated hunter program. has done way more good than bad. many of us dont just put in 4o hours we put 100s of hours. and when some stupid person bad mounths the whole program; because of who knows what.yes it makes real hunters' the ones who give and not juts take;mad''''''

 

[BLTSO]

Listen ladies....I think you are getting off point. . . . take your drama elsewhere, it's not helping anyone and just turns people off. . . . let's get back to the objective here.

Cleaning up the mess.

I have a list of resources that refute the 3 point or better concept....if you would like to see them, please p.m. me.

Related trivia, I have it under good source that on the Pauns. unit where 52 tags were issued (at 4 point or better), 4 people turned themselves in for shooting a deer that did not meet deer restrictions. How many people did so and did not report is unknown. . . . . . . . . . . Interesting, let's say there was one person who did not report it. . . . (I'm sure that's LOW!!!) That's 10% of all tags issued. How many people do you think would have shot the EXACT same deer had there NOT been a antler restriction.


Let me know if that was clear to everyone. I'd be happy to clarify if needed.

That is just ONE contributing factor to my personal (and every other biologist and state officials) thoughts on 4 point or better.

 

[Yakatak]

Elkun, Last hours I submitted to the DED program was for some grain seed to be planted on a Duck Refuge and me for to til it under. How does that (Directly) help the Deer herd? Judgeing by your attack first and think last approach to your intrusive posts, I can concure that you're either to young or ignorant to have read the 1995 Utah Gig Game Proclimation where the program was conceived to "benefit Mule Deer". Thats the issue.
Yak.



For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security.

Thomas Jefferson

 

[elkun]

yakatak.. well you went and did it. so who is the stupid one. ...